Columbia vs. Cornell

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David2585

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I'm weighing these two schools...both top-notch schools, both in NY. Anyone have any solid reasons to favor one over the other?
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I just made this same thread yesterday!

I personally would choose Cornell. I have several reasons:

-much nicer area of NYC, closer to downtown, nicer student housing

-less time in class

-students seemed much happier

-better need-based financial aid

-I prefer the research at Cornell to Columbia
 
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Towelie said:
I just made this same thread yesterday!

I personally would choose Cornell. I have several reasons:

-much nicer area of NYC, closer to downtown, nicer student housing

-less time in class

-students seemed much happier

-better need-based financial aid

-I prefer the research at Cornell to Columbia
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I am from nyc and think these are some good points. Columibia is way uptow, but with the A train you can get downtown probably as quickly as from cornell since you have to go over a while west to grab the subway from cornell. Also overall the research is probably stronger at columbia, but that can be a personal decision based on your area of interest.
 
pyrois said:
Cornell.

Less chance of death on campus by gunshot wound.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DEFD81F3DF932A15751C1A96E948260

PS - I couldn't find an article about the student who was shot, although I heard about it a while back. But I guess a campus guard getting shot is just as bad:( Be safe man!
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Umm, this article is from 1988 and I think anyone familiar with NYC and the area knows that Morningside Heights has become significantly safer over the past 19 years (one of the perrks of gentrification, I guess). Plus, this incident took place near the undergrad campus, which is fifty blocks south of the med school. Now, this is not to say that Washington Heights (where the med school is) is a great place because it certainly is pretty shady. I'm just trying to correct misinformation.
 
Lorienne7 said:
Umm, this article is from 1988 and I think anyone familiar with NYC and the area knows that Morningside Heights has become significantly safer over the past 19 years (one of the perrks of gentrification, I guess). Plus, this incident took place near the undergrad campus, which is fifty blocks south of the med school. Now, this is not to say that Washington Heights (where the med school is) is a great place because it certainly is pretty shady. I'm just trying to correct misinformation.
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Right across from the medical school there is a homeless shelter specifically for individuals with psychiatric disorders. I don't find that too reassuring in terms of safety...
 
Towelie said:
Right across from the medical school there is a homeless shelter specifically for individuals with psychiatric disorders. I don't find that too reassuring in terms of safety...
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Oh, I know! I work up there, so I am completely aware that the med school area is very sketchy. You can pull up stats about how unsafe the med school area is and I'll believe them, but I get sensitive when people start talking about the undergrad campus being sooo unsafe when it really is not.
 
Cornell for sure. The students at Cornell are much happier and more normal. I've heard nothing but bad stories about the competition at Columbia, and, like others have said, it is in a much worse part of the city.
 
keep in mind that at this time of the year ppl's advice to others is going to biased by where they've been accepted/waitlisted/rejected/have a decision pending. the opinions of the current students from the above threads is overall that the schools have a different character, but both will get you what you want. so go with the one that's a better fit for you.
 
Doctor~Detroit said:
keep in mind that at this time of the year ppl's advice to others is going to biased by where they've been accepted/waitlisted/rejected/have a decision pending. the opinions of the current students from the above threads is overall that the schools have a different character, but both will get you what you want. so go with the one that's a better fit for you.
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true. but before i was accepted to P&S, i had a better impression of Columbia than I did when I interviewed at Cornell.
-Cornell's area is overrated. Upper East Side is still dirty and cramped.
-Housing is about the same, IMO.
-the Cornell students I met were less enthusiastic and did less in "selling" their school to us (but that's only a select few, and i can't make sweeping generalizations about their student body
-IT really depends if you like trad (Columbia) or PBL (Cornell).
-There are countless other factors at play. Depends on what you're looking for.;)
 
stoppushingit said:
true. but before i was accepted to P&S, i had a better impression of Columbia than I did when I interviewed at Cornell.
-Cornell's area is overrated. Upper East Side is still dirty and cramped.
-Housing is about the same, IMO.
-the Cornell students I met were less enthusiastic and did less in "selling" their school to us (but that's only a select few, and i can't make sweeping generalizations about their student body
-IT really depends if you like trad (Columbia) or PBL (Cornell).
-There are countless other factors at play. Depends on what you're looking for.;)
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i only interviewed at cornell.

i thought the area was fine enough. no greenwich village, but there seemed to be stuff in the area. one thing i didn't appreciate was that the nearest subway stop is several blocks away. i wonder how this makes the travel times to downtown from cornell or columbia compare. any new yorkers have an idea?

the students i met also really didn't try too hard to sell the school or seem excited, but at the same time they were friendly enough. kinda strange.

one huge plus of columbia that posters here are overlooking probably corresponds to its (according to posters in this thread) less nice area: you'll get a more diverse pt population at columbia's main hospital. posters in older threads point out that you can get that at cornell in their affiliated brooklyn/bronx/queens hospitals, but i'm not sure how nice it would be to have to travel to another borough to get that diversity. does cornell offer travel compensation?
 
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Doctor~Detroit said:
one thing i didn't appreciate was that the nearest subway stop is several blocks away. i wonder how this makes the travel times to downtown from cornell or columbia compare. any new yorkers have an idea?
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I live at Union Square and I have to to take the 4,5 to the 6 every morning and then walk from lexington to york. IMO Cornell is in a Sh**y location. It takes me about 50 minutes to get to work and most of that is the freaking walk from lex to york. They say there will be a 2nd avenue subway line completed in 2011, but for now...York ave is just no fun and it ain't NY.
 
As a New Yorker for many years, I can tell you that not being close to a subway can be a big pain in the ass. Cornell is 4 avenue blocks (probably equivalent to 8 street blocks) away from the subway and that is a local subway. It is 4 avenues and 10 blocks from the 59th street express... that is close to a mile.

Columbia is right on the A/C and 1 trains. The A train will take you to Columbus Circle (59th street) in three stops (145th, 125th and 59th)... so it is pretty convenient.

I think that you will realize that if you go to Cornell or Columbia, you are going to have a hike at the end of the night if you are down in Chelsea/Meatpacking/LES/Soho/West Village. The same cannot be said for NYU, which is within reasonable walking distance to Union Sqaure/East Village.

Cornell surely is the nicer area (perhaps one of the ritziest in the city). Does it matter that much? I don't know - you can make that decision. Either way, New York is still New York and I only think location matters when we are talking about a substantial change - I'd much rather be in LA, but I don't think the gods will grant me this wish.
 
Doctor~Detroit said:
i only interviewed at cornell.

i thought the area was fine enough. no greenwich village, but there seemed to be stuff in the area. one thing i didn't appreciate was that the nearest subway stop is several blocks away. i wonder how this makes the travel times to downtown from cornell or columbia compare. any new yorkers have an idea?

the students i met also really didn't try too hard to sell the school or seem excited, but at the same time they were friendly enough. kinda strange.

one huge plus of columbia that posters here are overlooking probably corresponds to its (according to posters in this thread) less nice area: you'll get a more diverse pt population at columbia's main hospital. posters in older threads point out that you can get that at cornell in their affiliated brooklyn/bronx/queens hospitals, but i'm not sure how nice it would be to have to travel to another borough to get that diversity. does cornell offer travel compensation?
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good point.
i think both are fairly comparable.

even though cornell is in a "nicer area" I still wouldn't be roaming around the alleys at night.

true, cornell's nearest subway station is a few blocks away, but the M66 is pretty convenient nonetheless.

again, the students vary. there wasn't one school where i found 100% of the students to be all hugs and kisses. so i won't hold the laid-backness (to put it politely) of cornell students against them.

when i interviewed at cornell, one of the faculty and i spoke about other NYC schools, and they all have very good things to say about each other...
which is the way we should be seeing things. a supportive network will benefit everyone in the long run, IMO. ;)
 
Aside from location...

I think you just need to pick PBL or Lecture. Lecture = Columbia. PBL = Cornell.
The schools are vastly different in this regard.
 
pyrois said:
Not misinformation.

Old information:p

I'll find a more recent killing when I get back from my midterm.
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lol, and I'll read it after mine! Just be sure you get the right location this time or I'll have to go all crazy on your a** again ;).
 
Though I am a Columbia student and therefore biased, I figured I'd add my 2. If you like shiny buildings and a shiny lower upper east side location, you will love Cornell. Columbia is in a dirty area and the buildings can be decrepit. Does that matter? Well, it matters if it matters to you. Personally, I would talk to students at both to get a better idea of which school is a better fit. Both are amazing schools.

Currently there is PBL for two hours a day, every day, in second year, so to say that one school is "trad" and the other "PBL" is sort of an extreme position. Both schools have elements of both types of curriculum. The Class of 2012 at Columbia will be the first to experience a total overhaul of the curriculum, which will include longitudinal projects and a vast difference in the amount of time in the classroom, so a lot of this discussion becomes moot.

As for safety, I have never felt in the least bit unsafe around the medical campus of Columbia. Is there a homeless shelter across the street? Yes. Is that a great opportunity to have interaction with a patient population you wouldn't otherwise have exposure to? Yes. If your personal statement talked about how much you want to serve the underserved, Washington Heights is an underserved area.

As for competition, I am sure that at both schools it is minimal. At Columbia, the first year is pass-fail, and there is effectively no competition. In second year, it is honors-pass-fail, and I haven't noticed any competition. Certainly everyone tries to do the best they can, and it is very difficult to achieve honors, but that is different than competition I think. There is an email list and website where we all share our notes and tables and study materials. There is a culture of helping your classmates. The second years run an organization that tutors and has after-class sessions for the first years.

The bottom line is that Cornell and Columbia are different schools. Get all the information before making a knee-jerk assessment of either place. And good luck!

PS - Articles from 1988 about a slaying... well, what can you say about a sample size of 1?
 
SunshineNYC said:
Cornell for sure. The students at Cornell are much happier and more normal. I've heard nothing but bad stories about the competition at Columbia, and, like others have said, it is in a much worse part of the city.
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Whoa there, buddy, let's not make any blanket generalizations about a school you probably don't know a lot about. There is little if any competition among the 1st year students, and the 2nd year students seem to help each other out A LOT. Washington Heights may not be the greatest place in NYC, but it's certainly not the worst. It's grown a lot safer in the past decade, many of the danger stories you hear of occurred back in the 80s and early 90s. Everyone I know here is very happy with their decision to attend to Columbia.
 
PhotoMD said:
PS - Articles from 1988 about a slaying... well, what can you say about a sample size of 1?
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What can I say, people being killed on-campus just doesn't usually happen.

But if you're unsatisfied with n = 1, then how about n = 2:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE7DF1131F932A05754C0A96F948260 (1989)

or n = 3:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9C07E7DE173EF934A35751C0A9669C8B63 (2000)

And those were only using "columbia university slaying" as search terms. I'm sure there are plenty more that I didn't find in my cursory googling.

I don't even dare to put down "washington heights" in there yet. With that, I could easily bring "n" into the hundreds.

In this case, the small sample size is a limiting factor of the time I have to find the articles, not of the actual incidents themselves.

I'm not saying that the OP is going to get killed if he goes to Columbia, but having had a history of deaths on school property is generally a bad sign.

What I would say is that the OP might get his car broken into, or his backpack stolen if he goes to Columbia, with only a small chance of being murdered. But sheesh, who wants that?

As for the "right location," I was under the impression that Washington Heights is actually more dangerous than Morningside (at least now). I don't think any med students have been killed recently, but come now, there are less med students than undergrads, so the chance is lower.
 
pyrois said:
What can I say, people being killed on-campus just doesn't usually happen.

But if you're unsatisfied with n = 1, then how about n = 2:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE7DF1131F932A05754C0A96F948260 (1989)

or n = 3:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9C07E7DE173EF934A35751C0A9669C8B63 (2000)

And those were only using "columbia university slaying" as search terms. I'm sure there are plenty more that I didn't find in my cursory googling.
I don't even dare to put down "washington heights" in there yet. With that, I could easily bring "n" into the hundreds per year.

In this case, the small sample size is a limiting factor of the time I have to find the articles, not of the actual incidents themselves.

I'm not saying that the OP is going to get killed if he goes to Columbia, but having had a history of deaths on school property is generally a bad sign.

What I would say is that the OP might get his car broken into, or his backpack stolen if he goes to Columbia, with only a small chance of being murdered. But sheesh, who wants that?

As for the "right location," I was under the impression that Washington Heights is actually more dangerous than Morningside (at least now). I don't think any med students have been killed recently, but come now, there are less med students than undergrads, so the chance is lower.
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Unless I misread, I'm relatively certain these both occurred at the undergraduate campus, not at the health sciences campus. They are 50 blocks apart. Additionally, the 2000 article says the student was killed by someone she dated, which hardly has anything to do with location. NYC in general was a much more dangeous place in the 1980s.
 
You guys are really arguing over a mute point. New York is New York, it's not the most dangerous place in the world and it's not the safest. I had a stabbing right outside my apartment door Monday morning by a 16 year old kid and I'm supposed to live in one of the safest areas of the city. Now that Guliani's gone, all bets are off. I wouldn't choose your NY school based on the difference of a couple blocks. York ave has plenty of muggings and stabbings as does Harlem for Columbia.
 
microgal said:
I had a stabbing right outside my apartment door Monday morning by a 16 year old kid and I'm supposed to live in one of the safest areas of the city. Now that Guliani's gone, all bets are off. I wouldn't choose your NY school based on the difference of a couple blocks. York ave has plenty of muggings and stabbings as does Harlem for Columbia.
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Where's Batman when you need him:(

http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2006/05/17/body_found_in_e.php (2006)

http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/05/07/sex_abuse_arrest_for_columbia_student.php (2004)

You're right, I shouldn't be quoting from the Columbia undergrad campus since it is quite far from the med school, but it's hard to find Columbia P&S articles, because newspapers never refer to Columbia's medical school by it's full name. All I could pick up was a suicide in 1988:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=940DE7D61E38F936A1575AC0A96E948260

which isn't really relevant.

Oh well, I'm all depressed now from reading all these morbid headlines. No more for me.
 
Severus said:
Those people at Columbia are such amateurs.

We do it right at Penn. :horns:
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It's actually probably the high crime rate that has made these hospitals some of the best in the world:p
 
pyrois said:
It's actually probably the high crime rate that has made these hospitals some of the best in the world:p
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Exactly.

But I was actually referring the student-on-student killings, random Penn-Drexel student shootings, the professor who killed his wife, and the neurologist (neurosurgeon?) who drugged and raped a student. Anyone can have crime, but at Penn, we make it interesting and dramatic. :cool: We're awesome like that.
 
Trying to understand the differences between Cornell and P&S. Hard data says Cornell is in a glitzy, Gucci location, quite safe and uses exclusively PBL while P&S uses lectures and some PBL and the curriculum is changing radically for the class of 2012. Has anyone, either actual med students or people who interviewed at both places got any sense of the difference, if any, between students, faculty or administration at the two places? One posting contradicts another. Cornell studs more/less neurotic, P&S more/less driven. Applicants seem to be drawn from same pool. Students stats likely identical, but which group would you rather spend 4 years with? Patients may be different. More Spanish speaking patients at Columbia. Sounds like both have wards for the rich and famous. Attending physicians, (not full time faculty, but in private practice)--any differences? Cornell said to have better Cardiology. Columbia better endocrine. Is one better surgery? Any department by department analysis?
 
Okay, I'm non-biased. My 29 MCAT isn't getting me anywhere near these schools.

Med school is Med School. Whether you go to a "good" school, or a "bad" school, you learn the SAME THING. You, who may go to a "bad" school, will be taking the same national exams as your best friend who went to a "good" one. So why try to decide between two schools that are high-tier and equally competitive?

Pre-clinical is gonna be a b****, we all know that. Lets make our clinicals more exciting. I wanna see things, not just read about them.

I hear (from friends applying to top-tier schools) that Cornell's clinical affiliates are pretty much very very ritzy hospitals, and you probably won't get to see much at all. The people that live near these hospitals are rich, and can afford health insurance and preventative care. In fact, they can afford selective surgeries! A very close family member of mine works at the Hospital for Special Surgery - a clinical affiliate of Cornell. That person tells me that everyone stepping in the door is loaded, and then some.

So, Columbia is in a bad area. Bad area = poorer population = (unfortunately) less access to health care = see much more during clinicals.

I'd take Columbia. I also have a feeling (not based on any facts or communication with anyone whatsoever) that Columbia grads have a better reputation than Cornell grads. I think that like Downstate grads, Columbia grads will be much more knowledgeable than average going into residency (because of clinical exposure).
 
I just want to clarify some misconceptions that are posted here. I was concerend about the PBL and ritzy affiliate hospital reputation so I asked current students about it on my interview.

Cornell uses PBL a lot but not exclusively. The curriculum is actually 1/3 lecture 1/3 PBL and small group 1/3 Lab. The schedule for the first course block they gave me confirms it.

There are plenty of affiliate hospitals in areas of major urban depression. If students do not get much gore its becasue they chose to not to do their rotations at those hospitals.

I think they are both great schools and you can't go wrong with either. The best thing to do is go to the revisits and see which place feels more like home. Good luck with your choices!
 
Doctor~Detroit said:
the students i met also really didn't try too hard to sell the school or seem excited, but at the same time they were friendly enough. kinda strange.
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I interviewed at Cornell last year and got the exact same impression. When I asked a couple about why Cornell, they said they loved being in the city, but didn't say anything about the school. And the first years that gave us a tour said "PBL is ok", but didn't really seem to very into it. My interview day definitely turned me off.

Whoever said go to second look is right. I think Cornell and Columbia actually usually arrange to have second look on the same weekend so you only have to travel to NY once and you can do things at both schools. Good luck!
 
Let me reiterate that in the second year at Columbia currently, we spend two of the four hours of class each day in small groups working on cases. I guess that's the same thing as PBL.
 
Both are great schools. Here's what I know as a Cornell student (obviously correct me if I'm wrong)

Cornell
-class of 100 students (including MD/PhDs)
-PBL 3 times a week for an hour and a half each session
-out at 1pm every day, even on anatomy days!
-nicer, but more staid, part of the city
-3 avenues (not blocks) from the subway
-6 avenues from Central Park
-honors, pass, fail for both first and second year
-do not start anatomy until January
-more constant quizzes/test, so that you have less rest between them but you don't have an exam "week"

All I know about Columbia
-7-8 months of anatomy
-reputation of producing more surgeons
-reputation of having a more traditional, lecture-oriented curriculum
-right next to the subway
-pass/fail the first year, honors/pass/fail the second
-around 35 Harvard students out of a class of 160 in the class of 2010 (hey, gotta mention this as a Yalie:p)
-more diverse patient population by virtue of the neighborhood
-actually has a school of public health (we don't, which is the reason I'm doing research at Columbia's School of Public Health now and this summer)
-utilize an exam week
-is a great school

You can't go wrong with either school. If you're in the position to choose between the two, you're a very lucky person.
 
There are 27 Harvard kids out of 156, counting the Md/PhD students, and they are from different graduating classes...'02-'06 I believe. I only knew one of the Harvard students before coming here (I'm '04), and frankly, no one in the class really cares where we all went for undergrad. It's a conversation starter during Orientation, but that's about it.
 
both seemed awesome. are these schools in the same "league" as harvard and hopkins and penn?
 
Batman versus Superman :p

Go to the one you feel you would "fit in" better at.
 
jester384 said:
both seemed awesome. are these schools in the same "league" as harvard and hopkins and penn?
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They're in the same league as Penn.

They're not quite at the level of your Harvard/Hopkins/Duke/UCSF, though I'd say the difference between these "leagues" is negligible.
 
Boris Badenov said:
They're in the same league as Penn.

They're not quite at the level of your Harvard/Hopkins/Duke/UCSF, though I'd say the difference between these "leagues" is negligible.
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Penn is ranked above Duke and UCSF.
 
Mr. Tee said:
Residency directors rank UCSF above Penn.
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I guess we shouldn't be arguing about this, since the US news and world report rankings (particularly the residency director rankings that you cite) are extremely flawed, making them virtually useless.
 
Towelie said:
I guess we shouldn't be arguing about this, since the US news and world report rankings (particularly the residency director rankings that you cite) are extremely flawed, making them virtually useless.
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Touche...fighting [flawed] fire with [flawed] fire :p
 
Towelie said:
I guess we shouldn't be arguing about this, since the US news and world report rankings (particularly the residency director rankings that you cite) are extremely flawed, making them virtually useless.
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The reputation portion of the rankings is the only part that matters; it gives you objective data on how particular schools are perceived by people in academic medicine. Those are real rankings. Most in academic medicine will tell you that Duke, UCSF, JHU, and Harvard constitute your top four.

The rankings that come from arbitrarily crunching numbers (i.e., the actual rank assigned by US news) are flawed BS.
 
Schools' reputations usually lag by a couple of years. Penn is a better school than its reputation lets on, and people are catching onto the idea of it as a top school. That said, if you go there, you'll learn top notch medicine alongside great students and get an excellent residency. In the end, isn't that what really matters?
 
Kfire326 said:
Okay, I'm non-biased. My 29 MCAT isn't getting me anywhere near these schools.

Pre-clinical is gonna be a b****, we all know that. Lets make our clinicals more exciting. I wanna see things, not just read about them.

I hear (from friends applying to top-tier schools) that Cornell's clinical affiliates are pretty much very very ritzy hospitals, and you probably won't get to see much at all. The people that live near these hospitals are rich, and can afford health insurance and preventative care. In fact, they can afford selective surgeries! A very close family member of mine works at the Hospital for Special Surgery - a clinical affiliate of Cornell. That person tells me that everyone stepping in the door is loaded, and then some.

So, Columbia is in a bad area. Bad area = poorer population = (unfortunately) less access to health care = see much more during clinicals.

I'd take Columbia. I also have a feeling (not based on any facts or communication with anyone whatsoever) that Columbia grads have a better reputation than Cornell grads. I think that like Downstate grads, Columbia grads will be much more knowledgeable than average going into residency (because of clinical exposure).
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Actually most of the affiliate hospitals at cornell are located in outer boroughs in very unritzy areas. Lincoln hospital, one of cornell's affiliates, is in the south bronx and actually is the busiest ER in country (I would not consider this ritzy). Making a decision between cornell and columbia based on patient population that you will see would be kind of silly because ultimately your clinical experience will depend on your own motivation to seek it out and learn. A "poorer" patient population doesn't make you a better physician or resident. Also, doing scutwork like drawing bloods doesn't teach you to be a better physician...it is just menial labor that detracts from what you should be learning as a physician.
 
Bfriccia1 said:
Actually most of the affiliate hospitals at cornell are located in outer boroughs in very unritzy areas. Lincoln hospital, one of cornell's affiliates, is in the south bronx and actually is the busiest ER in country (I would not consider this ritzy). Making a decision between cornell and columbia based on patient population that you will see would be kind of silly because ultimately your clinical experience will depend on your own motivation to seek it out and learn. A "poorer" patient population doesn't make you a better physician or resident. Also, doing scutwork like drawing bloods doesn't teach you to be a better physician...it is just menial labor that detracts from what you should be learning as a physician.
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I've heard people say that since NYP is such a rich hospital, your third year will just end up being glorified shadowing. I'm not arguing with you, I'd just like to hear your perspective on this; do you think the experience there would be for the best? My guess is that a good mix of NYP in Manhattan and NYP in Queens would give you all the clinical exposure you'd need, but maybe someone would like to comment on that.
 
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