Community College Courses Not Allowed

[LVT2DVM]

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Okay, Im so freaking fed up with this application BS that I decide to call OKSU and find out what pre-reqs they wouldnt accept that hence caused my rejection.
I was very upset to find out they do not recognize pre-reqs taken at a community college. WTF? I realize some vet schools prefer to have your upper level science courses from a university, but Ive never had a school tell me outright they will not accept them at all. Isnt this bordering discrimination? I mean what if you cannot attend a university for whatever reason. Seems to really exclude against us non-trads.

After all community colleges are accredited institutions. My local CC is surrounded by multiple nationally reknowned universities all of which accept and recognize the heavy science CC courses such as chem, ochem and microbio as equivalent to their own.

The thing that really pisses me off is this juicy tidbit of information is NO WHERE TO BE FOUND on their website or CVM catalog. So I basically wasted an entire application, supplemental fees, transcript fees, ect... on a school that I wasnt even eligible for. 😡

None of the other 13 schools Ive applied to over the years have ever had an issue.

What is the deal with OKSU? Anyone else have this happen before.

 

[twelvetigers]

I can tell you honestly that it's news to me.

Of course, all my courses were taken here, so it hasn't been an issue personally...

 

[SmallAndLA]

Uhm, wow.

I'm fairly certain that's the strangest thing I've ever heard. Call me stupid, but I just don't understand the whole 'classes should be from a 4-year and not a community college'.

Good thing I didn't apply to OKSU -- I'd have been in the same boat as you. The CC I took classes from has transfer equivalency with freakin' Harvard, too.

But they really need to post that on their website so the person who took Comp 1 over the summer at a CC knows that the school is not a viable option. I hope you gave 'em heck about that, LVT2DVM.

 

[Truth74]

That is so ridiculous!
They should have been upfront.
Are they so cash poor that they need every application fee that they can get?

Well, people that look on SDN will know that OkSU doesn't accept CC courses.

 

[Trilt]

Prerequisite courses may be taken at any accredited college or university, but course content and credit hours should be equivalent to those at Oklahoma State University.

You should call bull on them, assuming content/credit hours are equivalent. They have lied on their admissions webpage.

 

[david594]

You should call bull on them, assuming content/credit hours are equivalent. They have lied on their admissions webpage.

So these are the courses they list as requirements:

In general, these subjects include:

English Composition 2 semesters
English Elective 1 semester
Humanities/Social Sciences 2 semesters
Inorganic Chemistry 2 semesters
Organic Chemistry 2 semesters
Biochemistry 1 semester
Math 1 semester
Physics 2 semesters
Animal Nutrition 1 semester
Biology 2 semesters
Microbiology 1 semester
Genetics 1 semester

Everything in bold are courses that OKSU offers at a 3000 level or above which would make them all upper division courses. No community college offers 3000 level courses, so they can't have comparable offerings for any of these.

 

[No Imagination]

Can you have the classes transfered to your 4 year, then submit that transcript/equivalent course code for the vet school?

 

[rugbychick16]

Yeah, its that whole "equivalent to those at Oklahoma State University." tricky phrase in there that seals it.

 

[TSUJC]

I had problems with Oklahoma State too. They calculated my GPA almost an entire letter grade below every other school which prevented me from meeting the application requirements!

 

[LVT2DVM]

So these are the courses they list as requirements:

In general, these subjects include:

English Composition 2 semesters
English Elective 1 semester
Humanities/Social Sciences 2 semesters
Inorganic Chemistry 2 semesters
Organic Chemistry 2 semesters
Biochemistry 1 semester
Math 1 semester
Physics 2 semesters
Animal Nutrition 1 semester
Biology 2 semesters
Microbiology 1 semester
Genetics 1 semester

Everything in bold are courses that OKSU offers at a 3000 level or above which would make them all upper division courses. No community college offers 3000 level courses, so they can't have comparable offerings for any of these.

You know, I totally didnt pick up on that. The only one that I disagree with is Organic Chem which is what the issue was with my application. I think most CCs offer Organic chem and at my university (where I got my BS) the organic chem is a 200 level course. You can only take 300 level chemistry courses if your a chemistry major or with special permission from the professor. Ummm perhaps my undergrad institution is just weird. Still think its BS>

 

[Trilt]

By that justification, my school (NCSU) classifies Orgo I + II as 200-level courses. Since that's not "upper level" in number classification, would that mean I could not apply to OKSU?

I would personally compare the course description/goals from OKSU and your community colleges, then lodge a complaint if they are extremely similar. In any case, they should be much more forthright about this on their website, not hide behind some BS sentence modifier.

(NC community colleges definitely offer Orgo I/II)

 

[blakberd]

It does seem crazy that you couldn't use CC courses for your pre-reqs. I don't know why they wouldn't put more information on their website about it....I didn't realize that they had upper div o-chem and I even applied there!

As one of my jobs, I worked in an admissions office doing transfer credit (undergrad) and we couldn't accept lower div classes as upper division classes. This esp. applied to CC classes, as David594 said. There was wiggle room when the course was taken at a 4-yr college if the department would accept it. It seems to me, that if a department at OKSU would accept the course then you would be able to use it as a pre-req from a CC or 4-yr college.

My o-chem was a 200 lv course but I guess since it was at a 4-yr college it worked? Not sure, but they haven't said anything to me about it.

 

[sofficat]

I think that is discrimination and complete BS. There is NO reason that CC courses shouldn't count. It is a college. Period. I had a yr of CC and transfered to a university then got accepted to vet school. They didn't have a problem with it. Now that CC I went to is a 4 yr college. Would OKSU have a problem with that? I'd call them out on it. Make a big deal. That is just 👎

 

[Shanomong]

Wow. That's complete BS.

I have an AS from a CC, and Penn has no problem with that. That's really effed up. I kind of want to call OKSU to confirm that this is true... Did you talk to someone who definitely was not making s**t up?

Wow.... 🙁😡

 

[david594]

is NO reason that CC courses shouldn't count. It is a college. Period.

Its a 2 year college! More specifically the first 2 years!

You can't reasonable expect a school to accept courses from a community college when they dictate that they are to be upper division courses.

 

[eventualeventer]

To play devil's advocate, then why would they accept lower level organic chemistry from other four year institutions? What's the difference if the community college course is the same course as the 200 level courses that most universities consider organic chemistry to be? The course content (topics) and credit hours (6-8 credits for two semesters of organic chem) are presumably the same -- that statement does not say that the course level in the undergrad catalog has to be the same, just the substance of the course.

OP, I'm sorry about OKSU.

 

[Trilt]

Its a 2 year college! More specifically the first 2 years!

You can't reasonable expect a school to accept courses from a community college when they dictate that they are to be upper division courses.

Because they really "dictated" that on their pre-requisite page? Someone would have to search their course catalog and compare it against their own to find out that the courses (which are probably extremely similar, if not the same, in content) happen to have a different number classification.

Saying the "first two years!" is kind of a null point, depending on the state that someone lives in. In NC, a basic pre-major science associates degree does include Orgo I & II.

Though I understand what you are trying to say, OKSU is less than honest on their page. I'm sure similar situations have occurred in the past, so not posting something that vital on your website (BEFORE people spend X amount of money on applying) is in very poor taste.

 

[sumstorm]

But that means they also should reject every applicant that has ochem as a 200 or 2000 level course...which would be a lot of schools.

For me to take upper level ochem in grad school, it would have been 400 level....and I would have also had to have several other chem pre-reqs.

Standards are difficult to deal with...I transferred after freshman year, and my 300 level stats course was dropped to a 100 level because only 'math majors' can take hte 300 at the school I went to. It took 2.5 years of battling to get it converted back to a 300 level, including letter from the professor at the previous school.

Having said all that, not all courses are created equal. I audited the biochem course at my college (it was a new prof on campus, I had a full course load already with research, and wanted the info but not the grades) and it was far harder than the biochem I took at OSU or the one I provided lab material for in Louisiana...both state universities. Depending on the school/prof, classes can be insanely difficult or shockingly easy...even within a school.

 

[sofficat]

Its a 2 year college! More specifically the first 2 years!

You can't reasonable expect a school to accept courses from a community college when they dictate that they are to be upper division courses.

Yes, but it is still a college. I thought that college courses are basically same across the board. In chem one you learn chemistry, no matter what school you went to. I don't see why that would be different if you went to a CC. If it was different or easier would they still call it chem one? I wouldn't think so- they'd call it pre-chem (or something like that). I guess I just don't see the differences. You still went through 'the first 2 years' of college at a university... how is a CC different and why wouldn't the classes count?

 

[Shanomong]

Its a 2 year college! More specifically the first 2 years!

You can't reasonable expect a school to accept courses from a community college when they dictate that they are to be upper division courses.

I dont know that they "dictate" anything. The student above said the class offered at their 4 year undergrad school is lower level, and they've had no problems. I'm sure that scenario is common. It seems specifically aimed at CC's. My 4 year school offered Orgo as a lower level too, I think most do. And this is the exact wording on the OKSU website:

"Prerequisite courses may be taken at any accredited college or university, but course content and credit hours should be equivalent to those at Oklahoma State University. Students should select a college or university which meets his/her academic goals, financial circumstances, and family responsibilities. Applicants are not required to have a B.S. or B.A., but are urged to consider their overall education and future when planning his/her undergraduate enrollment."

Doesn't seem to rule out CC's at all....

 

[twelvetigers]

Our organic classes offered at the university are indeed level 3 courses. Here is a list of the required courses that are level 3:

Organic
Biochemistry
Genetics
Animal Nutrition

The only level 2 class is microbiology, and all the rest are level 1. Of course some slots can be filled with higher level courses, but it's not a requirement.

So, of these four courses, none should be taken at a CC?

I know that they take community college credits for some things. So, if there is this specific division, it should be defined! They should at least MENTION it.

 

[nyanko]

The department where I got my BS at the University of Central Florida (Molecular Biology and Microbiology) would universally not accept intro to microbiology from a community college as equivalent to the upper division intro to microbiology course offered by the department, but would consider soph level courses taken from a 4 year university on a case by case basis.

Like it or not, some places have a bias against CC courses as being less rigorous or whatever. I think that if OKSU has the policy that they flat out won't accept those things from a CC though, they should definitely state it somewhere more explicit - I know some other schools state things about prereqs more specifically, like that x or y must be upper division or some such thing, and when we all spend so much money, effort and time on applying to these schools it is ridiculous to not have all of the information available for what's required.

 

[Truth74]

At my old cc, (which happens to be in the same town as the 4 year University) there is actually graduate level course work done. Some cc's are more than 2 year institutions.

 

[starlene45]

So, I will let y'all know what they say to me when I hear from them... I'm OOS and so far no letter or email either way.

I have taken the following CC courses: Bio 1A & B (full year w/lab 10 units), Physics w/Calculus (full yr w/lab 10 units), and 2nd Sem Organic (w/lab 5 units).

I'm very interested to see what effect if any this will have had on whether or not they accept me. What a weird situation. I definitely understand vet schools wanting certain classes to be from 4 year universities-- but certainly not all the general science survey courses.

And whether it's purposely misleading or not, I too often had a really hard time understanding the way their requirements are shown on their website, which is annoying to navigate in and of itself, and I also had a hard time getting in touch with them when I did have questions. They were, however, quick to phone me and tell me that if they didn't have my fall transcripts exactly on the date they requested they would throw my application in the trash... Again, I understand some of these actions but was not super impressed-- I think it's just a function of big University systems, sometimes. I've had similar problems with Davis.

 

[nyanko]

That is the exception, not the rule.

From the American Association of Community Colleges:

Degrees and Certificates Awarded Annually:
Associate degrees: 555,000
Certificates: 295,000
Baccalaureates: awarded by 29 public and 66 independent colleges

Also what sort of graduate coursework can be offered by a non-research institution? I guess maybe MBA classes or something? 😕

edit: I was responding to Truth74, if there's any confusion.

 

[Truth74]

These are masters programs with an affiliation with the University. The research is done at the university, but the coursework is done through the cc. This cc also has a masters program that is just coursework through another 4 year University, so I guess it is definitely an exception to the rule.

I need to also mention that the instructors at the U will go across town to teach at night at the cc.

 

[Maddsmoltz]

At my old cc, (which happens to be in the same town as the 4 year University) there is actually graduate level course work done. Some cc's are more than 2 year institutions.

Yeah, there's a couple cc's in the twin cities that offer upper level courses such as genetics, biochem, even cell bio-and from what I've heard it's not any easier than at the U of M. I did my first two years at a cc to save money too-and more than half of the best professors I've had were at the cc. If they can say that your classes weren't accepted-at least ask them specifically what classes exactly didn't work for them. Then call bs on them.

 

[philomycus]

I have taken at the CC:

Bio 1 & 2
Zoology
Physics I
Physics II
Gen chem I
Gen chem II
Calculus I
Intro to Micro

All of these are 2000 level classes. Are some of these the ones you are having trouble with??? Two years ago, I was listed an an alternate with these classes in my background, so now I'm really confused!

I can see why a 2000 level won't replace a 3000 level though.

 

[athane960]

LVT2DVM .. . I hope you have the name of the person you talked to. I would confirm this at a higher level. I have taken a couple of courses at a Community College (Organic Chem 2 being one of them). I talked with them early last year when I was considering applying to their school about my chances and I specifically told them about the community college credits and they NEVER said anything like that at that time. Maybe the person misstated or was confused about something else you said or something . . . .

Like I said, I would definitely confirm this!

 

[sumstorm]

The department where I got my BS at the University of Central Florida (Molecular Biology and Microbiology) would universally not accept intro to microbiology from a community college as equivalent to the upper division intro to microbiology course offered by the department, but would consider soph level courses taken from a 4 year university on a case by case basis.

I think there might be a difference between 'intro level microbio' and 'upper division microbio' ie our college required all bio majors to take intro level (100) microbio, and an upper level course in microbiology (ie 300 level medical microbio.) Unless there is a difference in the pre-reqs and topics covered in o-chem 200 vs 300, I think it is just where the school ranks it (though from my personal experience with ochem, it should have been a 300 level.)

If the argument is that the class isn't as 'difficult' or 'complete' or such...well, then vet schools would need to compare every course from every school. I have taken classes at 4 places now (all 4-years and just because I like to learn), audited classes and structured labs for 6 others (including one CC) and there are huge variations if the depth and breadth of courses like chem, bio, physics, organic, and biochem. I did all of that over a total of 12 years, and many of the classes I audited were repeats (so I could design appropriate internships for the zoo I worked at.) I can honestly say that the variations are huge, and the CC was well ahead of several state schools.

Then again, to me this is just another arbitrary bit of vet school admissions junk that has to be chalked up under the category of 'life isn't fair.'

On a different note, I wonder how the easy ability of applicants to communicate with each other via internet and such has changed the process and such.

 

[Pomona2006]

I need to also mention that the instructors at the U will go across town to teach at night at the cc.

I cannot tell you how many profs teach the same courses at the CC as well as at other local 4-year colleges (like Cal Poly Pomona and CSULA). The price difference is the icing on the cake (~$80 vs. ~$1000).

I truly think that the situation with OKSU should be looked into further...I'm just not buying the whole we require "upper division courses" to avoid CC courses but lower division courses are acceptable if they are from a 4-year school. Hmmm... 😕

 

[nyanko]

Then again, to me this is just another arbitrary bit of vet school admissions junk that has to be chalked up under the category of 'life isn't fair.'

Yeah, that's how I feel about a lot of the process, so I guess that's why none of this really fazes me much anymore. I feel so jaded. My reaction to everything involving admissions that is kind of bleh now is "Well, that sucks, but it is what it is and the schools have their own reasons and whatever."

Re: the Micro example, the one that philo took (2000 level) is the one that many of the students transferring into UCF from community colleges took, probably, and our department wouldn't accept it for the 3000 level class.

 

[sumstorm]

Re: the Micro example, the one that philo took (2000 level) is the one that many of the students transferring into UCF from community colleges took, probably, and our department wouldn't accept it for the 3000 level class.

Oops..I was still on the OP's topic and david's post about organic = 3000 level.

We didn't have a 200 level micro..... The only thing we had at 200 levels in bio were some random zoology classes, statistics (if you didn't want to take the math majors class) and research methodology (last 2 were required.) Then again, my undergrad was heavily research focused.

I don't think organic is a 300/0 at many schools (at least none I have dealt with.) I would say intro to micro and micro are typically different courses.

 

[nyanko]

I would say intro to micro and micro are typically different courses.

It's maybe a matter of semantics. I call the 3000 level intro to micro because my major was molecular bio & microbio and that was a huge survey of micro, and the first time you really see a class about it in the curriculum. Same way that I call the upper division genetics class intro to genetics.

Whatever the case, the 2000 level course at the community college covered the same topics, but still wasn't accepted as satisfying the requirement.

 

[rugbychick16]

I don't think organic is a 300/0 at many schools (at least none I have dealt with.) I would say intro to micro and micro are typically different courses.

Strange, pretty much the only prereqs I had that were 300/0 or up were Ochem/s+labs, general micro+ lab, and genetics

 

[sumstorm]

Strange, pretty much the only prereqs I had that were 300/0 or up were Ochem/s+labs, general micro+ lab, and genetics

I just checked out a handful of state schools and a handful of privates for ochem and of what I looked at :
Indiana University 300 levels
Swarthmore has a 22/32
Rutgers had 300 levels
Princeton 300 levels
Johns Hopkins 30's

The others had 200/0:
Purdue
Bryn Mawr
Haverford, Knox
U of IL
Louisiana Tech
University Louisiana at Monroe
Harvard
UNC at charlotte

Many schools also had 400 level. Sorry, I just thought it was randomly interesting the variations between schools. I also peaked at Cal Tech, but they had varios types of organics at 10, 20, 30, and 100 and 200

 

[bakaduin]

Yes, but it is still a college. I thought that college courses are basically same across the board. In chem one you learn chemistry, no matter what school you went to. I don't see why that would be different if you went to a CC. If it was different or easier would they still call it chem one? I wouldn't think so- they'd call it pre-chem (or something like that). I guess I just don't see the differences. You still went through 'the first 2 years' of college at a university... how is a CC different and why wouldn't the classes count?

Thats just not true at all. Classes at different institutions vary in difficulty whether they are all called Chem 1 or not. This is not to say all CC are easier than 4 year universities because as someone else mentioned some professors teach the exact same class at both. Its true even of some universities compared to others that the difficulty varies. In general I would say that community colleges have easier courses than universities and that is why OK makes this requirement. As I said before this is not true all the time. What do I base my opinion on? When I was in undergraduate lots of students would take the tougher courses like Orgo and Physics over the summer at their hometown community colleges because it was far easier than taking them at the Uni. It was a pretty common practice.

Its a tough stigma to deal with and definitely puts non-traditional applicants at a disadvantage. That's the perception though like it or not.

 

[No Imagination]

That's the perception though like it or not.

I agree with what you are saying, but its in poor taste for a vet school to base its application pre-reqs. solely on perception. As previously stated, the school did not specifically say "No CC" only "Upper Division". As someone who started out in CC before going to a 4 year, I can say that in many cases, the CC was just as hard as the 4 year.

My question is this, CC = 2 year degree's (am I mistaken, in general?)

What 2 year degree would require classes like Organic? Why are they even teaching such classes?

Maybe my def. of CC isn't very accurate?

 

[bunnity]

My question is this, CC = 2 year degree's (am I mistaken, in general?)

What 2 year degree would require classes like Organic? Why are they even teaching such classes?

Maybe my def. of CC isn't very accurate?

I think that many CC's are set up to feed into regular universities so they offer the classes that one would take during the first two years at those universities. So if someone was planning to transfer to a university and be a bio major, they would want to take organic sophomore year and the community college would benefit from being able to offer that class and retain that student another year.

 

[sumstorm]

I think that many CC's are set up to feed into regular universities so they offer the classes that one would take during the first two years at those universities. So if someone was planning to transfer to a university and be a bio major, they would want to take organic sophomore year and the community college would benefit from being able to offer that class and retain that student another year.

In some states, there are CC's that are set up to feed directly into the state universities, including guaranteed admissions as long as certain standards (such as GPA) are met. Private schools in small communities are picking up on this trend as well, as it is good for the local community and the colleges image locally.

I could also believe that with environmental sciences growing in scope, there may be some AS's that require o chem (and possibly some of the medical technology stuff, I know my late hubby had to have medical micro for his MLT, which he got from a CC.) Not saying it was the same as the med micro I took...just why some CC's might have such courses.

 

[VAgirl]

I just checked out a handful of state schools and a handful of privates for ochem and of what I looked at :
Indiana University 300 levels
Swarthmore has a 22/32
Rutgers had 300 levels
Princeton 300 levels
Johns Hopkins 30's

The others had 200/0:
Purdue
Bryn Mawr
Haverford, Knox
U of IL
Louisiana Tech
University Louisiana at Monroe
Harvard
UNC at charlotte

Many schools also had 400 level. Sorry, I just thought it was randomly interesting the variations between schools. I also peaked at Cal Tech, but they had varios types of organics at 10, 20, 30, and 100 and 200

Just for the fun of comparison, my undergrad institution had any lower division course as <100 and any upper division course as >100. And every single course was one credit, except labs which were 0 credits. Another joy of the lack of standardization and the fun it creates when trying to explain what your school did to another school.

LVT2DVM...I agree...call back and get more info...something's fishy as we're comparing what you were told to what other applicants or potential applicants were told.

 

[sumstorm]

VAgirl, I have the same issues with my school. we had credits. 1 credit per course no matter how many hours that course had. All science courses had required labs, which did not provide any additional credits. To this day I have had people look at my transcript and say 'but you didn't have any labs' and have to explain that every science course, even the soft sciences, had mandatory labs. Oh, and just to make things even more fun, we were on a 'term' system. We had three trimesters (which were not the same as quarters.) I specifically called schools before hand to discuss this and had the registrar send a letter explaining that the trimesters were not quarters, but were the equivalent of semesters at most universities, just condensed in duration (longer class periods instead) and we had fewer breaks and a longer school year. This info is actually included on the back of our transcripts, but the explanation isn't terribly clear. The joys of schools that like to be different.

 

[BeeBee82]

This is a terrible situation to be in. I have taken some pre-req's at CC (gen chem) And when I transferred to my 4-year I felt that I had a stronger background in chem than a lot of my peers. When i applied this never even crossed my mind! scary! Personally, if you took the class and did well, learned the material, ect. it shouldn't matter where from. Yes it may be easier to do well at a CC where there is more one-on one but no matter what way you roll the dice, you still learned what you needed to know and isn't that the point of a pre-req?

That being said, I feel like the day of PC that we live in sometimes makes things more unclear. Its often difficult to find the black and white in a world of grey. If a particular school wants to take a stance on not accepting pre-reqs from CC's then that should be made perfectly clear on their requirements page, I mean, they need to say that DIRECTLY! This whole process made me feel like a circus animal jumping through hoops!

LVT2DVM, How frustrating! They deserve a swift kick in the A**! How can they expect us to clarify every fricken aspect of our lives to them if they can't even tell us what they (exactly) want!😡