community programs vs academic

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gatorAKM

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I have heard of a few community programs that have a fairly strong feeding into fellowship training. Academic programs obviously feed well into these programs, depending on the caliber of the institution.

Are their any advantages in going to a community program over an academic one if you want to specialize further after gen surg?

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Advantages in getting a fellowship? Probably none unless the community program you're going to happens to have a fellowship you're hoping to get one day.

I'm going to a community program that has a laparoendoscopic fellowship, a soon-to-be launched vascular fellowship, and if the rumors are true, a plastics residency one day.

If you're really interested in an upper-crust fellowship at a top-tier academic institution, I wouldn't rank any community program at the top of my list. Those kinds of places tend to draw from academic programs, and you just don't want to be the black sheep when you apply.

Good luck.
 
Originally posted by ******
Advantages in getting a fellowship? Probably none unless the community program you're going to happens to have a fellowship you're hoping to get one day.

If you're really interested in an upper-crust fellowship at a top-tier academic institution, I wouldn't rank any community program at the top of my list. Those kinds of places tend to draw from academic programs, and you just don't want to be the black sheep when you apply.

In general, I agree with TW. However some community programs have an excellent track record for getting peeps into some competitive fellowships. Baystate is placing someone into a PEDE-SURGERY fellowship arguably one of the most competitive fellowships out there!!! So, you really have to look at the community program and what their track record is for "pipe-lining" grads into certain fellowships. If a community program has a good track record in the direction you are interested in, you might find it a good match.

But....keep in mind your interests when you start might not be the same when you finish and you will be stuck with the strangths and weaknesses of the given program you graduate from.
 
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There obviously are really good or even excellent community programs out there with reputations that exceed even the local university-based program, but the original poster's question was if there is any particular advantage in going to a run-of-the-mill community institution versus the run-of-the-mill academic program, and I still think the answer is no.

That does NOT mean you shouldn't go to a community program even though you want a fellowship at the end of five years, but you should just realize that you will face something of an uphill climb if compared to a similar candidate from a university program.

This is kind of like the "can I still be a surgeon if I attend a DO school" discussion. Yes, you can, but it won't be easy and you may have to break down certain stereotypes.
 
I know three guys at a community program here in chicago called "metropolitan" and all three are going into top notch fellowships in Vascular, Peds and CT.
 
Originally posted by ******
...but the original poster's question was if there is any particular advantage in going to a run-of-the-mill community institution versus the run-of-the-mill academic program, and I still think the answer is no.

I agree when it comes to a "run of the mill" community program vs "run of the mill" university, there is no advantage to a "run of the mill" community program if you are seeking "high powered" fellowships. In general, community programs are most notable for more and earlier operative experience. A "run of the mill" community program will not be notable for high powered fellowship placements....or it WOULDN'T be regarded as a "run of the mill" program.

:eek:
 
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Yes, fine.

But that was NOT the original poster's question. :D
 
I wouldn't count on any more plastics programs starting at community programs. The RRC isn't too fond of the ones that exist now -- they'd prefer that every program be a university based program with academic credentials. The upcoming ABPS President more or less told me during my interview at his institution that he won't move to have the current community programs closed, but that he wouldn't look favorably upon opening new programs that aren't part of an academic department of surgery.
 
It's interesting, maybe things are more regional than I thought.

As a generalization, it seems as though the 'run-of-the-mill' folks are far more likely to find a home in a U program than community. In my own experiences, even the small, lesser known community programs seemed to be securing the better applicants. For example, when I was at Ohio State, the residents at nearby Mt. Carmel (by no means a reknowned program) were with the high board scores, good grades and recs, while OSU was scrambling in FMGs. I've seen the same thing here as well.

And while interviewing, I found U programs easy to get interviews with, and was highly enough ranked to match in the case of at least one top 20 school, according to an insider's report, but I couldn't even get an interview with Carolinas.

I'm accustomed to thinking of the private programs as the holy grail, and the U programs as an inferior back up, where you are treated badly, have a miserable lifestyle, and chiefs get to stare at the back of some Fellow while the best cases go by. I know, I know - an unfavorable stereotype which is not always the case.

Just a different perspective. The surgery scoop on SDN about this subject has never really mirrored my own experiences, and I find it interesting.
 
I agree Max, this is pretty strong sentiment among the ASPRS @ large that there should be fewer rather then more training positions
 
Originally posted by pba
community places dont have the knives and guns knives
Actually, in Columbus, the major trauma center is Grant Medical Center, which is a private hospital. The Ohio State residents rotate there for their trauma.

Here in Iowa there are two Level I trauma centers: U of Iowa and Iowa Methodist Medical Center (my program). You can bet we get everything on our half of the state. It's true that folks in Iowa just don't shoot and stab each other nearly as often as they did in Ohio, however.
 
Originally posted by maxheadroom
I wouldn't count on any more plastics programs starting at community programs. The RRC isn't too fond of the ones that exist now -- they'd prefer that every program be a university based program with academic credentials. The upcoming ABPS President more or less told me during my interview at his institution that he won't move to have the current community programs closed, but that he wouldn't look favorably upon opening new programs that aren't part of an academic department of surgery.

Then I guess the rumor is untrue. :)
 
Originally posted by womansurg
Just a different perspective. The surgery scoop on SDN about this subject has never really mirrored my own experiences, and I find it interesting.

I dunno. My experience thus far has been everyone wants a "university" program and that community programs tend to play backup. For someone to actually rank a community program in one of his top three slots would be near-blasphemy (at least it seems with some of the people I know). Then I've got a friend from the South who really just wanted a community program and said it wasn't important to her, or to any of her friends, to get a university/academic program.

It probably is regional.
 
Originally posted by ******
...but the original poster's question was if there is any particular advantage in going to a run-of-the-mill community institution versus the run-of-the-mill academic program...

Not to be anal, but the original question never said "run of the mill". It said:

Originally posted by gatorAKM
I have heard of a few community programs that have a fairly strong feeding into fellowship training. Academic programs obviously feed well into these programs, depending on the caliber of the institution.

Are their any advantages in going to a community program over an academic one if you want to specialize further after gen surg?

I dare say, based on the original question in which the poster refers to "fairly strong feeding" & "if you want to specialize further after gen surg", he/she was not referring to "run of the mill".
 
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Just to chime in a little from a JMS eager to learn all he can from all of the experienced veterans' postings...

I have been advised that at some community programs, they are so dedicated and adept at training excellent surgeons, that you wouldn't be able to note the difference between a university based programs.

More specifically, the person mentioning this tidbit of advice indicated that such programs would include:

Baylor College of Medicine in Houston
Iowa Methodist in Des Moines
Carolinas in Charlotte
Virginia Mason in Seattle

Anyone have any further insight as to very good/excellent community programs that offer training and experience with all of the bells and whistles of a university program?

:rolleyes:
 
I think this is a very interesting topic, and clealy has brought an interesting discussion on the topic.
Maybe this question will add a little more fun to the topic....

Assuming that academic medical centers see more complicated cases in GS specialties (ie academics do more Jatenes for TGA than a community hospital, as an presumptive example), wont the fellowships, CT in this case, receive broader training, even if the community program has a CT fellowship?

Just a random idea to bounce off you all.
 
Originally posted by hemoccult
I have been advised that at some community programs, they are so dedicated and adept at training excellent surgeons, that you wouldn't be able to note the difference between a university based programs.

More specifically, the person mentioning this tidbit of advice indicated that such programs would include:

Baylor College of Medicine in Houston
Iowa Methodist in Des Moines
Carolinas in Charlotte
Virginia Mason in Seattle

Anyone have any further insight as to very good/excellent community programs that offer training and experience with all of the bells and whistles of a university program?

:rolleyes:


I think people have touched on the "very good" community program question on another string at some point. The two I know of and can add to your list are:

1. Henry Ford in Detroit
2. BayState in Springfield, Mass
3. Texas Tech in Lubbock (I am not sure if it is University or U affiliated community it depends on which brochure you look at as to how it is defined)
 
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I think people conflate being a technically well-trained general surgeon with being a top-notch academic surgeon. I'm making no judgement about whether one is better than another because the surgical world needs both.

Community programs have a very different mission than academic programs. In terms of volume and early operative experience, they, in many cases may have an advantage over many (but by no means all) academic programs. Their mission is to turn out Board-eligible graduates who have the technical and clinical proficiency to safely usher Mrs. Jones through her hemicolectomy/appy/chole/&c.

Obviously, in the current medical environment where the guy who is just a general surgeon and nothing else is becoming as rare as hen's teeth, many community programs are necessarily acquiring fellowship programs and sending their graduates off to fellowships. This is part of a broader (and probably necessary) cultural shift in the practice of surgery.

Academic programs have a different mission. For one, they are usually based in a tertiary care setting which means fewer "bread & butter" cases, often sicker patients requiring complex procedures, and clinical zebras that have been pushed up the referral chain. Second, and this is the main distinction, is the research-setting. They are dedicated to turning out competent surgeons who are also oriented to looking around the bend and advancing the state of the art. A good example is Franny Moore (see this week's excellent New Yorker profile by Atul Gawande), former chairman at the Brigham. He had the curiousity and experimental intuition to conceive elegant methods to revolutionize our understanding of fluids and electrolytes, and the vision to drive transplant medicine to where it is today. Though he was a good surgeon, he wasn't a technically gifted one; it was his steel-trap for a mind and experimental outlook that distinguished him.

While we are all surgeons, community and academic programs are geared to developing very different products. In many cases the community surgeon who does not have research or teaching obligations will be technically far more polished than a Professor of Surgery who is running a tumor immunology lab.

I admit I grow a little impatient with people continually asserting that so-and-so community program turns out surgeons that are just as good, if not better than such-and-such top-five academic program. When it comes to the individual patient lying on the table, of course they do.

For a student applying, you have to decide: "do I love being in the OR, and not need the pain and aggravation of climbing the academic promotion ladder, not being distracted by a lab, and applying for grants" or "do I love being in the OR, but I really want to understand the physiologic and molecular basis of X, and am willing to expend the extra effort to balance this desire with my clinical obligations"?

Or, "am I'm not sure, but I'd really like the opportunity to explore the possibility of doing research"?

I've probably artificially dichotomized the issue somewhat, there are certainly university-based programs that are more community-oriented, but still present some research opportunities. Still, if you really want to pursue research, you want to go to a medical center that has myriad, well-funded opportunities because they'll have the infrastructure (core facilities, track record in securing funding, &c.) to support you.

I think breaking the issue down to just whether you want to pursue fellowship training is actually a small part of the equation nowadays.
 
Originally posted by Skylizard
Just trying to make sure we are reading the same question TW ;)
[/B]

You sure you don't belong in Renal or something? :)
 
Originally posted by womansurg
Actually, in Columbus, the major trauma center is Grant Medical Center, which is a private hospital. The Ohio State residents rotate there for their trauma.

Here in Iowa there are two Level I trauma centers: U of Iowa and Iowa Methodist Medical Center (my program). You can bet we get everything on our half of the state. It's true that folks in Iowa just don't shoot and stab each other nearly as often as they did in Ohio, however.

As noted, HIGHLY program/regional specific.

Here, the local COMMUNITY hospital is the knife and gun club as they have the "advantage" of being more urban and they are NOT a Level I Trauma center. We are - yet "specialize" in MVAs, get all the Neuro, Peds, face, hand (essentially specialist trauma cases because we have in house staff for such) and the occasional knife/gun (must be when the EMTs get lost).

And, in line with other's comments, the community programs HERE are seen as less prestigious - Hershey is referred to as "Mecca" by them (much to my amusement). Of course, "Mecca" would be looked down upon by many of the fantastic community programs elsewhere we've listed here.

As for most things, there are no clear cut rules...
 
I disagree that the mission of academic and community programs are that divergent. Or that community programs turn out technically better surgeons. Or that academic programs are focused solely on turning out future department heads.

I will be starting my residency at a univ. program that offers a high volume of surgical experience, early operative involvement, research experience, as well as a very good track record in placing residents in very competitive fellowships. I know all of this because the program has 2 residents from my medical school and I have spoken with them at length about this.

Instead of accepting widely-held generalizations such as, "community programs offer earlier operative experience", and "fellows at academic programs steal all of the good cases", I would look at the individual program.

Is the program in an urban area with several other surgical residencies? This will affect your case numbers more than the status of "community" or "academic". Does the program have an established faculty, or is there high turnover? What kind of fellowships do the residents get? How many chiefs did not get their desired fellowship? Is there a year of required research where you can pad your CV with publications, and learn some valuable research skills? Or do residents publish well within 5 years without a need for a research year/s? Is the required research time a time for you to explore an interest, or do you wind up being a convenient source of labor for one of the attendings? Do the residents do a lot of teaching, or do the attendings do more of the teaching? At one highly respected program where I interviewed I was told by a pgy-3 that a lot of the OR teaching was done by senior residents and there was a concern that bad habits/poor technique were being passed down. OTOH, at a community program you might end up doing more surgery earlier, with more attending teaching, but you will wind up doing 5 times the number of lap cholys that are really necessary. Furthermore, some university programs give you more experience in endoscopy than some community programs, and vice versa.

I admit that it is difficult to gather all of this information about every program that you are interested in. Perhaps that's why applicants seize upon generalizations. But as many people pointed out, there are several examples of community programs that don't jibe with the notion that community programs are geared solely to turn out surgeons who will deal with Mrs. Jones' choly/appy/hemicolectomy. Try to identify what it is you really want from a surgical residency, and then identify the programs that fit your needs.

Peace, and good luck.
 
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