COMP and its policies

Discussion in 'Medical Students - DO' started by theghostdo200x, Dec 13, 2001.

  1. theghostdo200x

    theghostdo200x Junior Member

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    There is concern amongst medical students at COMP that policies are being enacted with no concern for students' rights and performance. Any thoughts?
     
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  3. theghostdo200x

    theghostdo200x Junior Member

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    Rumor has it, students are withdrawing with letters of probation, second year students are being treated unfairly, and the administration is unwilling to make changes...
     
  4. theghostdo200x

    theghostdo200x Junior Member

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    Simply put...the school is failing its students and not upholding its part of the contract...to train physicians. The winds of change need visit that place...
     
  5. theghostdo200x

    theghostdo200x Junior Member

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    If interested students want the true story about COMP and its problems, I'll be happy to help...
     
  6. JS-UNMC

    JS-UNMC Senior Member

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    Interestingly, I spoke with a friend from COMP tonight for an hour and we traded stories of horror concerning our schools... I go to DMU. Sorry, but the problems you guys are having, are mostly the same problems we are having. Although, I am interested to know what specific events or actions you are referring to.
     
  7. docstarwars

    docstarwars Member

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    jsdmu,

    will you please tell me about the problems you are having at dmu because i would like to know what i will be getting myself into. thanks!
     
  8. theghostdo200x

    theghostdo200x Junior Member

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    If these problems are occurring at all of the osteopathic schools, then how can we consider ourselves truely equals to our allopath brothers and sisters? The minute a student is accepted at a DO school, the institution should do all in its power to keep people in the program. A major problem at COMP is that the biochemistry professor, one of the toughest classes based on failure rates, is also the head of the academic committee. Talk about conflict of interest! Make no mistake, their interests lay in continued screening of students long after they are accepted by the admissions committee. And this is only a minor problem occurring at COMP currently!
     
  9. melancholy

    melancholy 1K Member

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    jsdmu- hey there.. we meet again! I don't think it would be an overstatement to say that most schools have their fair share of problems. Incidentally, what year is your friend at COMP?

    theghostdo200x-
    It is fair and honest to bring these to light to help students decide what school would provide the best "fit" for them. I should just point out that in fairness, one should write about the good as well as the bad. Being lopsided about advice can sound exaggerated, whether true or not. "Rumors" are just that for the time being.. rumors. I choose to take a lot of things I hear with a grain of salt until I can hopefully find out things for myself. Rumors are notorious at med schools anyway and can easily be blown out of proportion from what I've seen and heard this semester.

    Regarding our biochemistry professor, do you feel he is so unprofesional as to let matters in biochemistry affect his judgement as head of the academic committee? Understandably, he would probably be familiar with a student who comes before the academic committee, but it could be said that another professor who has relatively rigid standards could be sitting at the head of the committee. Would that make a world of difference? I also feel that Dean Lenz would pay special attention to what goes on in the academic committee as one of his responsibilities is to keep up with the status of the MS-I's and MS-II's at the school and see to it that the standards of the school are raised, not lowered.

    What else to comment on.. the biochemistry course. Yes, last year there were a number of students that failed the course. There are underlying reasons for that because I think otherwise the curve and averages would've been more favorable towards the students, but regardless of how I will end up doing in biochemistry, I do feel like I learned more useful information in that class than almost any other. We tend to do very well with biochemistry on the boards from what I hear.

    There is no doubt our first semester is difficult both time-wise and material-wise. Honestly, administration says they are working to change the hours and they did drop the credits for some classes through suggestions of the second year class.. these changes work towards our benefit. It's a big deal to lighten the courseload though.. because it doesn't involve just one class, but coordination with all the other courses/professors as well. I feel there will always be something to complain about with administration.. aren't there always things to complain about with our government?

    At any rate, I'm not sure what else to say except that perhaps my GPA will be hurting a litle bit, but personally, by surviving here I feel I can survive in pretty adverse conditions and that does give me some confidence. However, I have no doubts that I will get sufficient preparation for the boards and become a competent physician from the training provided by the school... anything else is up for me to decide.
     
  10. JS-UNMC

    JS-UNMC Senior Member

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    I have only a few complaints about the first two years at DMU... I think that many of these problems will be found no matter where you go (DO or MD). My problem(s) are with the 3rd and 4th year clinical education. These problems are numerous, frustrating, and incomprehensible. For example, can someone please tell me why DMU does not have affiliation with Iowa Methodist? It is a large teaching hospital that would be like hitting the jackpot if DMU could get affiliation with them. I have worked with the physicians at IMMC and they want to have some students from our school over there. So whats the problem? I know that DMU will not pay sites to take us... this is the problem. This leaves us with small, non-teaching hospitals that often do not provide the teaching or experience needed in our clinical years.
    This is only the tip of the iceberg (sp?). Ask about something specific and I will further explain, but too just rattle off the laundry list of problems that I am having would take way to long to do.
    Remember, I am just one voice. There are many people here who have no problems with DMU policies.... but thats not me! ;)
     
  11. JS-UNMC

    JS-UNMC Senior Member

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    My friend at COMP is a second year. Again, I think that most of the problems (only a few) that I have with DMU's first and second years, can be found at ANY medical school. owever, in talking with my friend at COMP and students at other DO school, the clinical education needs a LOT of overhaul.
    The ghost-Don't count on the AOA to adress any of these issues or to be of any good in any situation. They just came through DMU and gave DMU another five years of accredidation (the max allowed). This is despite DMU having no "official" affiliation with any hospitals here in des moines. DMU only has enough openings in desmoines to accomidate about a quarter of the class. This is beyond my comprehension.
    Don't think that I am just some disgruntled student at DMU who is trying to school bash in an open forum for the world to see. I genuinly like DMU and that is why it makes me sad to see DMU (administration mostly) not taking care of their students and not doing everything they can to accomidate their students. I like DMU, I want to see them make positive changes that will benefit everyone involved. However, my dealings with administration regarding these issues has proved uterly useless.
    JSDMU sad, jsdmu no like to be sad.
     
  12. melancholy

    melancholy 1K Member

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    jsdmu- I know how you feel man.. just hang tough. Of course, there have been concerns that pop up here and there. Our class and its officers seem to be having some success at least addressing some issues and having some changes made. Regardless of the fact that some of these changes may seem minor, they are beneficial and I think the more our class is able to communicate and work with administration, there could be greater benefits in the future.
     
  13. anonymous student

    anonymous student Junior Member

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    once again more breathtakingly "in the dark" posts from COMP defenders. i have found the strongest defenders of COMP to be an interesting lot, a very grateful group indeed.
    dennis kiick's presence on the academic committee does indeed represent a conflict of interest in his deciding cases of remediation and dismissal for students who have failed his course. he does in fact take it personal when students have problems with his course. this is because within his troubled mind he envisions himself to be the best teacher at comp and that its not his fault that his exams have the lowest averages and his class fails more than any other course. if you doubt me what was the pre curve average on the 2nd biochem exam? low 70's, and what is the average on the final? i am willing to wager it will be around 71%, pre curve. sometimes people miss the most obvious.

    now for a real wake up call to all the comp apoligists and students thinking of attending there, i want to dispell some myths about comps performance on the boards, melancholy stated
    "We tend to do very well with biochemistry on the boards from what I hear."
    i would like to know who told you that, because its simply not the case. there is an internal report from the admin office that compares comp's board scores with the other osteo schools and comp is below average on EVERY SINGLE MEASURE except psych for the level 1 comlex, thats right BELOW AVERAGE on everything except psych!!!!!!!!! you doubt me?? i will be cutting and pasting the relevent numbers in the next few days onto this board and others. i was accepted to several schools in addition to comp but was mislead as the quality of the education at comp, i regrett having chosen COMP.
     
  14. anonymous student

    anonymous student Junior Member

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    i wanted to relate another recent occurance, this happened to 13 of our 2nd year schoolmates. the unfortunate 13 failed their public health exam. these same 13 passed cardio and the other systems this fall. an exam which the school violated their own 24 hour rule in giving. what penalty was meted out to them? academic probation and they will not be allowed to take the june boards, this will delay their rotations coming up next year and everything to follow after that. all for a 1 unit class which the course coordinators were in favor of them retesting this semester, not next summer. more even handed, proportional treatment by the academic committee according the dennis kiick and the impotent dean.
     
  15. melancholy

    melancholy 1K Member

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    anonymous student- Understandably, you have a lot of personal feelings against Dr. Kiick. Aside from the allegations of his ego or allowing things to get personal, do you feel his "teaching" is really that bad? I did feel like the pace of his lecturing was pretty rapid, but I did notice that he will stay after class or after review sessions as long as necessary to answer any questions from students.

    I notice that you haven't complained about any professors for the most part. There are definitely a few professors that might seem a lot friendlier or that you may look more favorable upon, but I do not feel like I get much out of their lectures. Is that construed to being a better professor? For example, I thought Bales was an ass but I thought his lectures/presentations and notes were very organized and as a result, I felt I learned that portion of anatomy much better. As for Kiick, his exams are difficult and often times, nit-picky but for the most part, I feel a lot of the information tested would be relevant for the boards and that it was good to have at least a little exposure to what type of questions could show up in the future.

    Our class is our own class and I don't care what has happened in previous years with administration and/or professors even though I am aware that there will always be some carryover from the past. Why not try to make the best of the situation? If you are still at COMP when boards come around, help prove these "numbers" wrong by assisting the class in performing well on the boards. If not, then I certainly hope you will find a happier environment to reach your goals as a future physician.
     
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  17. melancholy

    melancholy 1K Member

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    Hey Leotigers.. you have an email I can reach you at perhaps? It says you're not accepting private messages.. intentional?
     
  18. Observe

    Observe Junior Member

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    I think that posters "theghostdo200x" and "anonymous student" are the same person that use different screen names. Who else can have so much hatred for COMP in general, and Dennis Kiick in particular. It's obvious to me that this cry baby is just trying to find excuse for his failure. Prove me wrong by using your real name. If you do have a valid suggestion, be constructive, and go right to the administration. I am sure they would evaluate your input and go from there. Hopefully things will improve for your and future students. However, Your negative approach will just make things worse, and won't do you or anybody any good.

    --------------

    Think about it.
     
  19. anonymous student

    anonymous student Junior Member

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    First in regards to the curious post from "observe", who wants me to use my real name but they won't use theirs, hmmm perhaps you, observe, need to lead by example, what is your name? I only use one screen name and if you were a little more astute and observant you would notice that the ghost and I use different writing styles, vocabulary and phrases. No, I am not a cry baby nor do I hate COMP, I was misled, I was accepted to several schools and chose COMP becasue it was in CA and I beleived it to have a good rep that I would learn someting here. I also assumed(bad mistake) that the administration would be student friendly, anybody who beleives that COMP's admin is student friendly is hopelessly deceived. COMP used to have a good reputation and I stress used to, comp has lost several rotations and is the lowest in internship matching among all the DO schools. Why the loss in matching? Could it be that our board scores as I said before are below average for everything? Can you say noncompetitive.
    As far as your suggestion to "go to admin.", that is laughable. First, craig lenz doesn't give a rip about what students think, if he did it wouldn't be so difficult to go see him, second, I was warned by the student liason in the COMP admin office to be very careful who I go voice concerns to, thats right, a paid employee of the university warned me, this was echoed by faculty. You, observe, whoever you are, need to do your homework before discounting what people who have been through this first hand have to say.

    Melancholy- I do think that kiick is a terrible teacher, anybody who has had any significant amount of chemistry, biochem or not, as I have, say the same thing. His notes are scattered and he gives way to much info in relation to what we will EVER need to know both for the boards and later in practice. Talk to your friends at allopathic schools with well established ciriculums. So what if he stays after class or has review sessions, thats great, if he isn't getting the job done during his scheduled class time there is a problem. This goes back to me wondering why he didn't get tenure at his last institution. His comment about pediatricians needing to be good biochemists is a bad joke.

    As far as the other professors, yes I agree bales is an ass but his notes and lectures were very well organized. However the over emphasizing of embryo by the anatomy department is a problem. I talked to someone I know at UCLA who has completed boards and they told me that embryo had little representation on USMLE but pharm was very important. What does COMP do? Cut back the pharm hours.

    One last thing I want to address in your post, the debacle with the second years happened last week. How does this effect us? The same committee that came down with this decision is the same committee that will decide the fate of our classmates. Your comment "I don't care what has happened in previous years" is disturbing and is something I noticed about our class, it appears very self focused and self absorbed. I have noticed this attitude in many of our classmates in relation to helping out other students. And its a problem that hopefully people in our class will grow out of.
     
  20. JS-UNMC

    JS-UNMC Senior Member

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    low board scores = primary care residency... isn't this the goal of osteopathic medical education (primary care)?

    Sorry, I missed my haldol dose this morning and am quite bitter today.
     
  21. melancholy

    melancholy 1K Member

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    anonymous student- I think you may have misinterpreted what I meant by saying I didn't care what has happened with administration and faculty in the past. That statement refers to the fact that we shouldn't be passive and let events from the past discourage us from learning and doing well at school. It does not make any reference to the few students who were unfortunately on the short end of the stick last year.

    At this point in time, I can't think of anything more devastating than having to drop out of medical school. Some students were given the chance to remediate though.. despite the fact that they had to sit through another first year, they will still get through med school in the end without having to reapply. A few students dropped due to personal reasons as well. Dwelling on the decisions on the academic committee may give one something to vent and mull over, but it won't do anything for those students from last year. For our current classmates who may have to appear in front of the committee, perhaps the curriculum could have become easier, less time-consuming, or perhaps more streamlined so they would not have to worry about dealing with the committee in the first place.

    I am well-aware of the fact that the school has a ton more hours for anatomy than most schools do. I'm not sure what the inclusion of embryology was for, but it's not like it was the first year it has been done. Even though for most schools, preparation for the boards is "everything", there is more to be taught than just "board-relevant" information. In my opinion, the boards cannot test on everything that would be necessary for a medical student to succeed in the future. I do feel like the anatomy faculty probably pushed to have embryology added as it does teach helpful information when it comes to understand certain developmental defects.

    As for cutting hours, they cut the hours for anatomy (2), microbiology (0.5), and pharm (1). I doubt that cut in 1 credit hour for pharmacology would have a large effect of our scores on boards. As it was, we even finished one lecture early. In the end, there will be a lot more preparation for pharm aside from this first series of lectures we had. I don't think the cut of credits in anatomy will have much of an effect either. To me, in the end, much of the success for board performance depends on self-preparation. I am not going to remember a lot of information from this first semester, but that does not mean to say I won't be able to do well on the boards.

    As far as voicing concerns go, we were advised by the second year class to following the chain of command when there were matters that had to be dealt with. Finding the right people to talk to is important at just about any institution to belong to.. that "structure" is there for a reason. Whether or not certain people have to be bypassed is another story, but for the most part, I think much more was accomplished by going through the appropriate people when we had concerns this semester. This also happened the summer before school was started and by talking to the right people, beneficial changes were made. As far as trying to find Dean Lenz, when he isn't out-of-town, he has already mentioned he eats lunch outside quite frequently and I have seen him outside eating or walking around a good number of times. He has already invited students to sit down with him at lunch for a friendly chat.. were you able to take advantage of that offer before? I certainly wish I had. Given the chance, there are certain things I would probably ask him about as I do care about our school's performance and reputation, but other things I would not bring up because it is not my place to gripe directly to the Dean of our school. I feel there are other people to talk directly to without having to take it up with the Dean.
     
  22. melancholy

    melancholy 1K Member

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    jsdmu- don't worry.. you're excused. we all have days like this. just make it through the semester in one piece..
     
  23. teloola

    teloola Member

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    Like Melancholy, I know that there are problems at COMP. I also know that we have been able to reverse some *aggregious* wrongs that were attempts to be done to our class. I was unaware of the plight of some of our second year students, but I can say that I will talk to the second year class officers and see what the first year class can do to help. Matters that affect one class affect us all.
    To the Ghost and the Anonymous Student have you brought your problems us to the class officers? If you have who did you talk to? I am a class officer for the MS1 class and although I have read and heard many rumors, I have not been approached by anyone with a documentable concern that I can help with. None of the other MS 1 or MS 2 class officers has mentioned any of your issues at meetings. You talk about the chain of command, but I don't see you using it. I personally went to the SGA meeting that was designed for issues like this and I did not hear anyone mention your issues. I announced in front of the MS 1 class that if you had issues that you wanted brought up, to let me know and I would personally bring them up for you (since the MS 1's had a schedule conflict with the meeting). I did not receive any mention by email, note, or mouth about these problems.
    After working in student government for a semester I can say that WesternU administration listens to student concerns, they just take a LONG time to think about a solution and implement one. As frustrating as this sometimes gets, I beleive that issues will get resolved eventually. The flip side to this issue is the reason why we still have bathroom breaks during exams- they cannot change policy mid-year without a SUBSTANTIAL reason for it.
    The bottom line is that the problems that you raised are significant. But we cannot change things we don't know about. We don't live in a perfect world, all we can do is try to make it a better place for those who follow in our footsteps. To the 2 people with complaints, email me and try to give me numbers (ie: our avg board score results) or tell me where to get them. Give me details that your class officers can take to the powers that be. If you are an MS2, I can't imagine that if your class officers know of the problem that they are not interveining on your behalf. If they already are, some help from your colleagues downstairs couldn't hurt.
    Maybe we can make things better for the class of 2006.

    Heather Vernon
    Treasurer/Secretary for DO class 2005
     
  24. JS-UNMC

    JS-UNMC Senior Member

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    Thanks melancholy! I'm on the down-hill slide now... just need to make it three more days then off to Steamboat!
    I am frustrated though. DMU is only giving us two weeks to study for boards! I really wish we had more time. How much time does COMP give you guys to study for boards? I hope its more than two weeks!
     
  25. Histrionic

    Histrionic Endowed member

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    In my opinion, I like Dr. Kiick. I learn more from his lectures than any other professor with the exception of Dr. Leo. I did well in the biochem course, and I did not take biochem as an undergrad, nor did I have the infamous Kaplan review book. In regards to public health, I feel that if the students who failed the course would have taken it seriously, then they would not be in the situation they have now placed themselves. In other words, why don't you naysayers quit generalizing about COMP, and accept responsibility for your own misfortune!!
     
  26. melancholy

    melancholy 1K Member

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    jsdmu- hmmm.. sorry I have no clue how long they give COMP'ers time to study for boards. Any older COMP students want to answer that?
     
  27. Observe

    Observe Junior Member

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    anonymous student,

    I am not a med student. I notice you, theghostdo200x, and YOSH2 have posted enough negative remarks about COMP. Some of those even pointedly telling prospective students not to apply, or go to COMP even if accepted. If you do not think that's hatred, then what is? There are more students wanting to attend COMP than there are rooms for. COMP does not have to "mislead" you or anyone. Judge by the outstanding alumi from COMP, COMP has a good reputation and will continue to maintain that good reputation despite of what you said. I do not think that taking cheap shots at COMP would do any good.

    Since you are the one telling the whole world that COMP is no good, and that Dennis Kiick sucks, you should reveal your identity in order to add credibility to what you said. I am not bad mouthing COMP or Professor Kiick, and I do not have to reveal anything. It's not needed.

    I have my serious doubt that you are a COMP student. I do have my reservation that you even attend the "what ceremony" ???????? or what's in "THE OATH".
     
  28. Observe

    Observe Junior Member

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    OPs! I mean the "WHITE" ceremony. It was my typo.
     
  29. anonymous student

    anonymous student Junior Member

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    Observe - You left me out, I have warned students not to attend COMP and will continue to do so, its not in the least way hatred, I wouldn't use up valuable emotional energy over COMP. What I have done is give a warning or at the very least education. Prospective students can disregard what I have said or take a moment to reconsider their options and investigate the school a little further. You say we should evaluate the school by the alumni, this is ridiculous, at the very least the most recent alumni are 4 years removed from the MSI setting and we have a new dean and Kiick is also new to teaching the medical biochem course. The critical analysis needs to focus on the most recent performances which, not on what used to be. Which brings me again to board scores, below average on everything, why do suppose that 80% of comp grads go into FP? In a word, noncompetitive. Another thing to consider is why comp has the third lowest number of hospital affiliations(13) and only 5 of those are in the state? Got this off the AAOMC web site. Then, the school trots out Botsford, a hosptal in western Michigan. Why in the world would I need or want to go to Botsford. There are 4 major medical schools within 60 mile radius of COMP and who knows how many hospitals, why don't we have more rotations around here? These are thy things the tour guides at school and those who conduct the interviews aren't going to tell prospective students. Stating fact and citing where it can be found is not a cheap shot. One last thing, as far as needing to reveal my identity, I find it very curious that once again you ask of others what you are unwilling to deliver yourself, WHY IS THAT?

    Histrionic - are you for real? Please tell me your not really serious about liking kiick. His class is strickly memorization, and I have confidence that you will be able to pull it all together and get the critical thinking down for the boards in 1.5 years. Sorta like you did on the MCAT, right? As far as the 13, you couldn't even deal with the reason for my relating what happened to the MSII's, these people who you say placed themselves into this situation are the same people who have a better GPA than you have and all passed cardio without any trouble. Once again the school violated it's own rule, the 24 hour rule.
     
  30. theghostdo200x

    theghostdo200x Junior Member

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    To those who replied to my post here on Student Doctor, I appreciate your comments and concerns about my issue. Certainly there are many ways to overcome these obstacles at COMP and I feel open discussion is one method. A few people have really taken the defense of COMP personally, and I feel their remarks in regard to stating personal profiles in order to authenticate statements made about COMP and its policies is false. In addition, to attack fellow colleages and their ability to sustain the responsibilities of the Oath is unprofessional. We may disagree severely on how COMP is run, but we should not attack each others' motives for becoming a physician. Bottom line...if we haven't walked in someone shoes, we shouldn't assume to know the first thing of their experiences.

    And for the others who replied and do not fit the above disclaimer, its because of one thing...you just don't get it!

    Adios
     
  31. Histrionic

    Histrionic Endowed member

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    Hey anonymous, If you were not the moron that you obviously are, you would know that the 24 hour rule applies to core classes only. As far as my grades go, I got a 93% in cardio and a 89.6% in public health (not too bad for a community college graduate). However, my cardio grade is not the issue here. You are just pissed because you have to remediate public health and you are trying to discourage prospective students.You should be happy that Dean Lenz has decided to let you take the boards with the rest of us. Why don't you quit pissing and moaning about COMP and transfer to another school. Oh, wait a minute, you are not in good standing ...ooops. People like you give this school a bad name. Idiots of your type will soon be out in the hospitals and clinics disbursing your brand of cancerous negativity. NONE of your complaints are valid as far as I am concerned. You should grow up and learn that life is not fair. For every pissed off a-hole like you there are many more students that are doing well within the COMP system and are grateful for the opportunity to become a physician. Let's face it, DO school is the last house on the block to becoming a physician for most of us. There are those prescious few who turn down Harvard to attend COMP, Touro or Pikeville and the like, but this is a minority. I go to COMP because this is where I got in. NOW, I am doing my best to learn all that I can so that when I get out into my residency I can do the job as well as any MD. I suggest you lose the attitude, and face the fact that you are here at COMP and unless you transfer or start over at an MD program, you will be a DO from COMP.
     
  32. maxim728

    maxim728 Member

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    Hi Histronic. You are truly inspiring!!!!!!I want to tell you that i received word today from COMP for an interview at COMP Jan. 31st(Thursday). My cousin graduated from COMP in 97', and he did his residency at Children's Hospital in Detroit(We're both from Detroit). Yes, a wayne state affiliated hospital(MD)!! So, you can tell anyone who doesn't listen to well minded individuals like you that YES, DOs ARE EQUALS!!!!!!!! Furthermore, when I interview there, I would be honored to meet a student like you, if you would be so willing. Possibly to answer anything I may want to ask a student??? Ok, hope to hear from you.
     
  33. anonymous student

    anonymous student Junior Member

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    histrionic - thank you for confirming my suspicion that comp is the only school you got into. I like your honest style as well "Let's face it, DO school is the last house on the block to becoming a physician for most of us." However I must say that if you want to look at a moron, go stand in front of a mirror and say, "comp is a paradise, I will sacrifice all integrity to be a doctor and I love being at comp", then you'll see a moron.
    I am not one of the cursed 13 nor am I in poor academic standing with the university. Why are you convinced I am an even an MSII? As far as the 24 hour rule, you have engaged in the same violation of the spirit of the rule as did the committee and craig lenz. Now repeat after me, THIS SCHOOL HAS NO INTEGRITY.
    To quote you, "Idiots of my type...", in response to that please reread and follow the directions given in the third sentence, in addition, who really is the idiot? Now that I think about it, maybe I am in fact the real idiot. You see I was accepted by comp as well as MD and other DO institutions and picked comp. Yeah I do win the bozo prize for that one, however, I can assure that steps are being taken to remedy my plight.
    In response to your comment about being in the hosptitals and clinics, which hospital or clinic would that be? One of the 5 hospitals or 3 clinics here in CA or one of the 8 hospitals out of state? That's right, comp has affiliations with a grand total of 13 hosptitals and 3 clinics. But I would guess an overachiever such as yourself will do their rotations at King/Drew, "Oh, wait a minute," your are at comp, comp students don't go to King/Drew ...ooops, my bad. I guess its botsford for you my freind.
    In closing I would like to make a suggestion, you might want to work on your vocabulary. Yes I know you have such an economy with words already but when you interview for your residency in family practice the interviewers will not be overly impressed with profanity and expletive laced sentences. And if you work on this before the boards as well and with a lot of hard work you may be able to put in an average performance and beat the sub-par board score stigma that follows COMP.
    And finally, histrionic, why don't you go do a pelvic diaphragm release or some relfexology or clear up some hyperlipidemia with a somatic adjustment.
     
  34. rickmyster78

    rickmyster78 Member

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    Hello. I have been accepted to COMP for the Class of 2006 and I will attend COMP in 2002 despite all the negativity. I understand that some people have complaints about the core courses and about how difficult and overwhelming the courses can be...Personally, I don't care about the core courses, because most COMP students tell me that although it is true that they are very difficult it is not impossible. Learning is dependent upon the person wanting to learn the stuff. I know I will bitch and gripe about the core courses once I'm there, but I understand that every med student in any med school also bitch and gripe about their first year in med school. I also understand that if I was on the verge of failing a med course, then I would probably blame someone else for my shortcomings. Although I am not in med school yet I would like to think that I am too motivated about medicine to ever be in a situtation where I am failing courses. Moreover, I hear that our curriculum is getting better (thanks to those students that actually communicate with the administration in an attempt to make their school a better medical institution)...and a little bit more anatomy hours and other course units will not phase me. However, I do think that we should push for more affiliated hospitals in the near vincinity (i.e. Pomona Valley, Huntington Memorial, etc.) for our rotations. I believe that our third and fourth years are more crucial than our first two years, so I am concerned. I think that COMP's rotations will do the job, but it can be better. I also would like to hear from other COMPers (especially those that are doing rotations and graduates). Any comments will be appreciated. I hope no one takes offense to my comments.

    Rickey

    P.S. I do appreciate the postings about COMP's weaknesses...it helps me to better prepare for what's ahead for me. However, I don't appreciate the posts that give COMP a bad name...you need to think about it...afterall, it is our school. Bitching and griping about our school like that in a public forum where residents, attendings and DME's are potential readers is embarrassing and unproductive for our futures' sake. Lets be more thoughtful before we post our comments for those that are doing well and motivated and for the COMP graduates and for future COMPer's.
     
  35. JS-UNMC

    JS-UNMC Senior Member

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    I too, wish that I had been able to hear both sides of the story before I had chosen DMU. Would it have ultimately changed my mind about attending... I don't know. It certainly would have helped me in deciding if DMU was the right place for me though. This thread is definately becoming like the DMU thread about a year ago when we had the two opposite sides bashing each others sculls in with sledge hammers on our posts. Surprisingly, it did bring about some change, not necessarily for the good though.
    COMP's hospital situation sounds very similar to that of DMU's. We only have about 40 seats here in des moines for about 190 students. This pretty much guarantees that we will be forced to have to move around the country every three or four months. I know this because I just went through our match process... I hope COMP's match process is better than ours.
    Also, DMU has managed to piss off just about every doctor in greater des moines. This means that we have very few clinical (DO or MD) faculty teaching our systems courses. It also means that his year, most of the doctors in des moines will no longer take DMU students. So, our electives that we want to set up here in desmoines are also going to be done via another match process... jeez!!
    So smile... COMP isn't the only school pissing in the kiddie pool!
     
  36. Observe

    Observe Junior Member

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    rickmyster78
    Do you plan to run as President of Class 2002 student government? If you should decide to do so, I bet you will win by a landslide. :)
     
  37. Histrionic

    Histrionic Endowed member

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    For those that feel that COMP is not on par with other medical school, please read the following list of match results for the COMP 2001 graduates. If our students were not well trained, then I doubt that residencies such as Yale, UCSF and Johns Hopkins would accept them. Let the facts show that many students decide to practice primary care. However, if you would like to become a surgeon or anesthesiologist, then these options are also wide open. I welcome students such as Maxim and Rickmyster, who can appreciate COMP and will likely succeed at this institution. I am not embarassed to tell people that I go to WUHS/COMP. I am proud to be a DO student and a future physician. If this sounds corny, I really could care less.


    WesternU/COMP Match Results 2001
    Anesthesiology:
    PCOM/Frankford Hospital
    Longhorne, PA

    Henry Ford Hospital
    Detroit, MI

    Wilford Hall/USAFMC
    Lackland, TX

    University of Miami/Jackson Memorial Hospital
    Miami, FL

    Pacific Hospital-Long Beach
    Long Beach, CA

    University of Connecticut Medical Center
    Connecticut, CT

    UC San Francisco Medical Center
    San Francisco, CA


    UC Irvine Medical Center
    Irvine, CA


    Yale University Medical Center
    New Haven, CT



    Family Medicine:
    Eastmoreland Hospital
    Portland, OR (2)

    Loma Linda University Medical Center
    Loma Linda, CA


    University of Missouri Medical Center
    MO

    UC Davis Medical Center
    Sacramento, CA (2)

    KCOM/The Medical Center
    Columbus, GA

    Long Beach Memorial Medical Center
    Long Beach, CA (3)

    USC County Hospital
    Los Angeles, CA (3)

    WesternU/COMP Arrowhead Regional Medical Center
    Colton, CA (2)

    WesternU/COMP Downey Regional Medical Center
    Downey, CA 3)

    COMB/FP
    UC San Francisco/Fresno Medical Center
    Fresno, CA

    Presbyterian Inter. Hospital
    Whittier, CA

    Travis Air Force Base/Davis Grant Medical Center
    Granite Bay, CA (2)

    MU South Carolina
    SC

    Phoenix Baptist Hospital
    Phoenix, CA

    MSUCOM/Community Health Center
    Coldwater, MI

    UNSM/DFCM Washoe Medical Center
    Reno, NV

    Martin Luther King/Drew Medical Center
    Los Angeles, CA

    Pacific Hospital-Long Beach
    Long Beach, CA (2)

    Riverside County Regional Medical Center
    Riverside, CA (2)

    Glendale Adventist Medical Center
    Glendale, CA

    Walter Reed Army Medical Center
    Washington D.C.

    Family Medicine & Psychiatry

    UCNCMC
    Greenley, CO

    Family Medicine/Rural Medicine
    UNECOM Medical Center
    Portland, ME

    KCOM/Lincoln Health Network
    Phoenix, AZ

    Methodist Hospital of Sacramento
    Sacramento, CA

    Camp Pendleton Naval Hospital
    Camp Pendleton, CA


    Emergency Medicine:

    Texas A&M University/Scott and White Medical Center

    TX



    Medical College of Ohio/St. Vincent's Mercy Medical Center

    Toledo, OH



    MSUCOM/Ingram Regional Medical Center

    East Lansing, MI



    Bi-County/Henry Ford Medical Center

    Warren, MI



    Botsford General Hospital

    Farmington Hills, MI (2)



    Pennsylvania State University/York Hospital

    PA



    PCOM/Philadelphia Consortium

    Philadelphia, CA



    Pacific Hospital-Long Beach

    Long Beach, CA







    Internal Medicine:



    Kaiser Permanente Santa Clara Medical Center

    Santa Clara, CA



    UCSF/St. Mary's Medical Center

    San Francisco, CA



    Alameda County Highland General

    Oakland, CA (2)



    Medical College of Wisconsin Hospital

    Milwaukee, CA



    Wright State University/Wright-Patterson Medical Center

    OH



    The Cleveland Clinic Foundation

    Cleveland, OH



    NYCOM/St. Barnabas Hospital

    Bronx, NY COMB/IM



    Loma Linda University Medical Center

    Loma Linda, CA (3)



    Huntington Memorial Hospital

    Pasadena, CA



    YUSPH/Griffin Hospital

    Durby, CT IM/PM/PH



    UCLA/Wadsworth Greater Los Angeles Veterans Administration Hospital

    Los Angeles, CA



    MetroHealth Center

    Cleveland, OH



    Pacific Hospital-Long Beach

    Long Beach, CA



    UCLA/St. Mary Medical Center

    Long Beach, CA



    Wilford Hall USAF Medical Center/Lackland Air Force Base

    San Antonio, TX



    Johns Hopkins University Hospital

    Baltimore, MD



    Garden City Hospital

    Garden City, MI (2)



    UCLA Medical Center

    Los Angeles, CA



    University of Texas/Houston Medical Center

    Houston, TX





    Neurology:



    Northwestern University/McGaw Medical Center

    Chicago, IL



    University of Arizona/Tucson Medical Center

    Tucson, AZ



    St. Louis University Hospital

    St. Louis, MO





    OB/GYN:



    Medical College of Georgia

    GA



    UC Davis Medical Center

    Sacramento, CA



    Kaiser Permanente, Sunset

    Los Angeles, CA



    Cook County Hospital

    Chicago, IL



    UMDNJ/Robert Wood Johnson Medical Center

    NJ



    WesternU/COMP Arrowhead Regional Medical Center

    Colton, CA





    Pathology:



    USC County Hospital

    Los Angeles, CA





    Pediatrics:



    Loma Linda University Medical Center

    Loma Linda, CA



    UC San Francisco/Fresno Valley Children's Hospital

    Fresno, CA



    USC County Hospital

    Los Angeles, CA



    University of Nevada Medical Center

    Las Vegas, NV



    USC/Children's Hospital of Los Angeles

    Los Angeles, CA



    Cleveland Clinic Children's Hospital/Cleveland Clinic Foundation

    Cleveland, OH



    UMDNJ/Robert Wood Johnson Medical Center

    NJ



    Texas A&M University/Driscoll Children's Hospital

    TX Pediatrics/Neomatology



    Henry Ford Hospital

    Warren, MI COMB/Pediatrics





    Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation:



    UT/SVMC Medical College of Ohio

    Toledo, OH (2)





    Psychiatry:



    Loma Linda University Medical Center

    Loma Linda, CA (3)



    Tripler Army Medical Center

    Honolulu, HI



    Martin Luther King/Drew University Medical Center

    Los Angeles, CA





    Radiology:



    Pontiac Osteopathic Hospital

    Pontiac, MI



    Garden City Hospital

    Garden City, NY COMB/Diagnostic Radiology



    Mount Sinai Medical Center

    Miami, FL Diagnostic



    USC County Hospital

    Los Angeles, CA Diagnostic



    Botsford General Hospital

    Farmington Hills, MI Diagnostic



    Oklahoma University Medical Center/Children's Hospital/Veteran's Hospital

    Oklahoma City, OK Diagnostic





    Surgery:



    University of Colorado Medical Center

    Denver, CO General



    Tripler Army Medical Center

    Honolulu, HI General



    Martin Luther King/Drew Medical Center

    Los Angeles, CA General



    Martin Luther King/Drew Medical Center

    Los Angeles, CA Categorical







    Traditional Rotating Internship:



    WesternU/COMP Arrowhead Regional Medical Center

    Colton, CA (9)



    MSUCOM Consortium/Henry Ford-Riverside Hospital

    Detroit, MI Internship/Family Practice



    Midwestern University/CCOM/AZCOM Consortium-Mesa Hospital

    Mesa, AZ (2)



    WesternU/COMP Downey Regional Medical Center

    Downey, CA (3)



    Pacific Hospital-Long Beach

    Long Beach, CA (3)



    Mount Clemens General Hospital

    Mount Clemens, MI (2)



    Genesys Health Systems

    Grand Blanc, MI



    Botsford General Hospital

    Farmington Hills, MI



    UNECOM/Mercy Hospital

    Biddeford, Me
     
  38. Histrionic

    Histrionic Endowed member

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    Hi Rickmyster,
    Once again this anonymous person does not have her facts correct. Here is the current list of affiliated hospitals at COMP for third year. A revised list will come out Jan 2002. You can also go out of state your 3rd year if you work things out with the rotations office. Your 4th year is wide open.
    Coast Plaza
    Doctor's Hospital
    Huntington Beach Clinic
    Pomona Valley
    Riverside County Hospital
    Western University Clinic
    Arrowhead Regional Medical Center
    Chino Valley
    City of Hope National
    Downey Hospital
    Eastmoreland Hospital
    N. Orange County Pediatrics
    Pacific Hospital of Long Beach
    Rancho Los Amigos
    Western Med. Santa Ana
    Canyon Ridge
    CHOC
    Citrus Valley Medical Center
    Colorado Society of Osteopathic Medicine
    Corona Regional Medical Center
    Gardena Memorial Hospital
    Lake Mead Hospital
    Magan Clinic
    Parkview Hospital
    Whittier Hospital Medical Center
    Clinica Sierra Vista
    Hi Desert Hospital
    Alhambra Hospital
    Brea Community Hospital
    Placentia Linda Hospital
    Kern County Medical Center
    Huntington Hospital Medical Center
    Tempe St. Lukes Hospital
    Huntington Beach Hospital
    La Palma Intercommunity Hospital
    Tri City Mental Health
    Los Angeles Community Hospital
    Kindred Hospital
    Lakewood Hospital
    Suburban Hospital
    Garden Grove Hospital
    Avalon Municipal Hospital
    Patton Mental Health Hospital
    Kaiser Baldwin Park
    West LA VA
     
  39. jhug

    jhug 1K Member

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    I have a quickie-- where are you getting your info on ranking on board pass rates and matching?? I was accepted to COMP but probably won't go there, i am just curious as to where you are getting this info-- i'd love to see it!!! I have seen a TON of people say this and that, but NOT ONE has been able to show it to me or tell me where i can go to get it-- it is all through word of mouth or is it documented somewhere??
     
  40. anonymous student

    anonymous student Junior Member

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    This to will be a quickie, I have given references several times, but here goes again, a few references and comments. First reference, especially for histrionic, the number of hospitals affiliated with with comp, page 33 of the AACOM 2000 annual statistical report, this can be downloaded from their web site in PDF format. Second reference, the board scores I have referenced come from an internal report generated in the comp administration office by an individual there, there are officers in both the MSI and MSII class who have access to this report.

    Ricky, if you still wish to attend comp I wish you success. In my situation I wish I would have had this info before I matriculated, I would have attended one of the other schools I was accepted to. I will speak more to my situation and what I am doing about it later.
     
  41. anonymous student

    anonymous student Junior Member

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    histrionic - I was wondering if you could point out which of the residency matches that you were kind enough to cut-n-paste for us are osteopathic. Also, you made the statement "You can also go out of state your 3rd year if you work things out with the rotations office". If this is so, what happened to the Utah rotations? Probably the students fault huh.
     
  42. melancholy

    melancholy 1K Member

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    anonymous- I don't quite see the point of bashing Botsford General. Granted that it has the second busiest ER in the Detroit metropolitan area (and Detroit was just listed as the most dangerous city in the U.S. heh.. check out <a href="http://www.morganquitno.com/safecity.htm" target="_blank">Ranking of America's safest/worst cities</a>) I'm sure Botsford has a lot to offer for those willing to try a different setting. Were you at the talk that was given? I'm sure bringing Bostford in to give a talk has something to do with the fact that it is a rather DO-friendly institution.. you cannot fault the administration for doing that. Earlier in the year we had the head of the ER dept. from St. Barnabas in the Bronx give a lunch talk as well. (Another DO-friendly place) These aren't in the greatest areas, but for some people who may not be able to find it here in California for whatever reason, they will gladly go wherever it takes to get valuable clinical experience. The COMP graduate who went to Botsford to initially work in the ER (I think) ended up being an orthopedic surgeon and did a fellowship at Harvard (Mass Gen) as well... but he had no idea he'd end up living in Michigan when he went out to Botsford for a rotation or two.
     
  43. aecuenca

    aecuenca Senior Member

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    Anonymous,

    Histrionic is providing the most updated information regarding the affiliated hospitals as well as the residency matches. You can make changes and do out of state rotations in the 3rd year, but it isn't easy. This year will be the first year that San Diego will have rotations in the 3rd year (pending the number of willing students). Many rotations have been secured in other areas. Do you go to the rotations meetings? It is evidently clear that you do not. Again, you provide information, but it is information that is incorrect.

    Heather, your class treasurer, asked if you ever brought any of these issues to the class officers. Again, it appears you have not. These reports that you speak of...are they current? I myself have not seen the latest board scores yet because THEY ARE NOT AVAILABLE. At one of our last Dean's Hour meetings, Dr. Berezniak couldn't provide the COMPLETE report because they were waiting for scores from the October exam.

    But if you were an MS-II, you would know that, wouldn't you? You try to come off like you know what you are talking about, but it seems that you have no idea. You apparently are not involved in student government, nor are involved in any administrative meetings regarding rotations, board scores, or academic review.

    I on the other hand am involved in all of these areas. And so are many of my colleagues in the MS-II class. I will admit, AGAIN, that things are not perfect at COMP. But you have nothing to gain and are contributing nothing to your class with you constant griping and whining.

    Heather and I have asked you to step forward and reveal yourself. We are not afraid to say who we are. You, on the other hand, have yet to reveal/confirm suspicions of your identity. If you have something to say, then step forward and claim responsibility. Or are you afraid that if you do, your credibility will be more diminished than it already is?

    Many people have already figured out who you are based on your past posts. Do you know that when they read your posts that they feel sorry for you? It doesn't make them angry but rather makes them take pity on you. I don't know what your agenda is, but if it's to get people to side with your situation, it isn't working.

    Let it go. Move on in a different direction, whether it be another DO school, an MD school, or a different career altogether.

    Arnold Cuenca
    President-DO Class of 2004
     
  44. Histrionic

    Histrionic Endowed member

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    My hat is off to Arnold and any student that has a positive attitude about COMP, any other osteopathic school or the osteopathic profession in general. Osteopathic physicians are roughly 5% of all physicians in the US. We need to stick together and positively promote our profession and our schools. If you don't like the way things are going, ask yourself " Am I part of the problem or am I part of the solution?". <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
     
  45. anonymous student

    anonymous student Junior Member

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    Histrionic - I am a victim of the problem, I am neither the solution nor the problem but I can change my situation, and I have.

    JSDMU - As you stated, I wish I would have known this before I came to COMP, would it have changed my mind? Most definitely, I could have attended elsewhere!!! Are things really different here at COMP? Most definitely, I have talked to numerous individuals, primarily at allopathic schools and the administration to student relationship is collegial, not adversarial. They where very surprised to hear about the no bathroom break policy and the crackdown on cheating that doesn't exist.

    On a related note, to those that say something to the effect of "stop complaining and do something" I was warned by more than one highly placed individual in COMP administration/faculty to be CAREFUL who I complained to because there would be reprisals. What type of university environment is that?

    In all this my only regret is that I wasted my time coming to COMP when I could have been in another program, allopathic or osteopathic and I would actually be enjoying myself.

    One last comment, how bout that 70% biochem final average!!!!!!!! YEAH BABY!!!!! WAY TO GO KIICK!!!
     
  46. melancholy

    melancholy 1K Member

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    70's not too bad.. especially after a curve. I know I have complained a bit here and there in med school and undergrad about tests that weren't very organized or had questions that were poorly worded, but I don't remember the last time I had a legitimate reason for complaining that the test was too difficult. If the average is that low, they will curve it to a reasonable average I hope (with a little common sense from the faculty involved). Now we wait..
     
  47. teloola

    teloola Member

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    I think that the 70% average was before the curve. The extra six percentage points definately helped!
     
  48. Yosh

    Yosh Livin' in the WINDY CITY

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    Biochem is DONE!
     
  49. melancholy

    melancholy 1K Member

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    Ahh.. i was wondering where you guys were getting the 6% curve from.

    The final average for the whole biochem course was what.. 80-81%? That looks semi-legit I suppose. Anyway, as Yosh said it best... it's over now.
     
  50. anonymous student

    anonymous student Junior Member

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    Biochem is NOT done for 12 of our classmates and others who have left the university in part due to biochem.

    Lets see a show of hands of who can tell me how dennis (that would be dennis kiick) arrives at his curve? Seeing none let me explain it to you, he comes up with a number of students that he is willing to fail. He then works the curve around that number. Thats right boys and girls, COMPLETELY ARBITRARY. His curving method has nothing to do with anything remotely scientific.

    What MOST other universities do is to look at the standard deviation. The cut off line will typicaly be 2 standard deviations below the mean. What was the standard dev of the final you say? Correct me if i am wrong but i think it was between 10 and 12, to those that don't remember stats that is huge. In a scientific study if the std dev was that big the study would be tossed out and rerun.

    What I am trying to illustrate here is the complete and utter arbitrary nature of the biochem curve. Listen carefully, there are people who got a 69.5 and passed and others who got a 69.4 and failed. That is 1/10 of one percent. One more right answer on just 1 of the three exams would give that person a passing score.

    So biochem may indeed be over for you, but it is not over for everyone and you might want to keep that mind at the university that shouts about humanism in medicine but doesn't extend that same humanism towards its students.
     
  51. teloola

    teloola Member

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    I believe that the 6% curve was obtained by taking the person with the highest grade and giving that person enough points to get slightly less than 100%. In talking with that brilliant and gifted person, he/she ended up with a 99.5%. I guess that it was not that arbitrary. That was a common way to curve in my undergrad.

    I do agree with the "anonymous student" in two areas. First, a standard deviation of 10 is lowsy. Normally 2 standard deviations would cover 95% of people, 3 standard deviations should cover 99.3% of people. It indicates that we are not dealing with a standard bell curve. Of course with biochem, we all knew that we were not dealing with a classic professor.
    Second, for the 12 people that failed I am sorry that biochem is not over for you. All I can offer is that according to Dr. Merckel, only one person failed the essay make up test last year. I know that it is not much...
     
  52. melancholy

    melancholy 1K Member

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    Attending Physician
    Biochemistry is not the only (or the most important) reason that the majority of our departed classmates left although I acknowledge that perhaps Biochem and Kiick were the reasons why you ended up leaving in addition to many other secondary reasons. It does remain to be seen how our 12 classmates perform during remediations and I hope that they will perform well enough during the rest of the year that they won't have to remediate any other courses (or be forced to leave). Like Teloola mentioned, only one person out of the students who had to remediate last year did not pass the summer exam.

    I should mention that last year the second year class only had about a 2% curve for biochemistry and I believe 14 people did not pass that year. That being said, they did not have the luxury of having Merkel's test as the first biochemistry exam and I'm sure their average going into the third exam was a few points lower than ours. One thing that may have skewed their numbers a bit were the students who had access to the Kaplan study aids early on. Still, overall I feel like we had it easier than they did in regards to biochemistry.

    Regarding the matter of 69.4 and 69.5, for some reason I had thought he didn't round UP with any fractions.. I guess I was being a little pessimistic with that. That is unfortunately the case with grades.. even one question or one point can make such a big deal, but it is relative based on each individual's grades.

    I admit I don't know much about the specifics of curves and grading systems, but even at other universities, that is something that each professor usually decides upon.. not something that is a university-wide policy, right? Every professor at our school has their option of curving whatever they want.. good or bad. Kiick's "formula" may not be the norm you are used to, but according to the predicted curve calculation provided by Teloola, that seemed a common method when I talked to a few people outside the school.. not some completely random madness. Would you look at Kiick in a different light had he curved it so much that no one would have failed his class? Even if Kiick were seriously honest _if_ he ever said he'd be happy if no one failed his course, that would still be such a huge curve to give to the class I think..

    Ok I guess I am puzzled enough to need a little clearing up in statistics since I don't seem to remember anything. The first thing that I am wondering is where people are getting the standard deviation for the entire course. From what I recall and wrote down, the std. deviation of 10.1 was for the third exam... and for some reason, I remember that being the std. deviation for the mean score of the exam (62.3+-10.1/88).. not 10.1%+-70.8%. Unless he published detailed stats (not just how many people got A's, B's, etc.) would you still be able to calculate an accurate deviation?

    Also, from what I remember (or don't), the std. deviation is basically calculated based on the grades of the students and is not arbitrarily adjusted by the professor.. so there is nothing that can be done about a std. deviation that is too large or too small. Since he decided to use another method for deciding his curve, the std. deviation doesn't mean much in this case because it does not determine who is within a specific range to get an A/B/C/D/etc. Does my rambling make any sense? (Sorry it's kinda late)

    Anyway, you do make me realize that I should probably pay alittle more attention to how the grading scales are calculated.. although most of the professors don't publish their stats for exams.. not as much as Kiick did anyway. I have heard enough stories about Kiick to make me think twice about saying I should like the guy, but I think each school has at least one or two abnormal profs who people like to complain about.
     

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