competition among students

[Phipps]

Hi all,

I am a first year doctoral student in Clinical Psych and today, I felt for the first time really hurt by a fellow classmate who clearly was competitive and had her interests in mind but knew that it would be of disadvantage to me. Instead of working together s/he did go ahead and kicked me out (my perception, of course). While the incidence was hurting to me, I am not writing in order to open the incident up to discussion but was more thinking about how to deal with perceived competitiveness in doctoral programs. I came from a very supportive and team oriented program where people would help each other and would be interested in diversity. Not so where I am now, it seems.

Does competitiveness sound familiar? If so, how do others deal with it??

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[PerhapsMaybeOk]

Hi all,

I am a first year doctoral student in Clinical Psych and today, I felt for the first time really hurt by a fellow classmate who clearly was competitive and had her interests in mind but knew that it would be of disadvantage to me. Instead of working together s/he did go ahead and kicked me out (my perception, of course). While the incidence was hurting to me, I am not writing in order to open the incident up to discussion but was more thinking about how to deal with perceived competitiveness in doctoral programs. I came from a very supportive and team oriented program where people would help each other and would be interested in diversity. Not so where I am now, it seems.

Does competitiveness sound familiar? If so, how do others deal with it??

Swim like a shark or sink with the fish :X Sorry to say haha

 

[Neuropsych2be]

Hi all,

I am a first year doctoral student in Clinical Psych and today, I felt for the first time really hurt by a fellow classmate who clearly was competitive and had her interests in mind but knew that it would be of disadvantage to me. Instead of working together s/he did go ahead and kicked me out (my perception, of course). While the incidence was hurting to me, I am not writing in order to open the incident up to discussion but was more thinking about how to deal with perceived competitiveness in doctoral programs. I came from a very supportive and team oriented program where people would help each other and would be interested in diversity. Not so where I am now, it seems.

Does competitiveness sound familiar? If so, how do others deal with it??

It depends on the program. Sadly you will find many people in grad school to be hyper-competetive. Some programs actually encourage competition and the atmosphere can be like a school of sharks. The answer is not to be competitive with your peers but with yourself. You are really the only person you have to compete against. Keep your focus on yourself and your professional development.

 

[haner2]

The competition in programs is extremely high, especially as financial resources start to dwindle. Depending on your program, there might be a few ways to deal with it. For example, when you say you are at a disadvantage because of what this person did, what do you mean by disadvantage? If it unfairly jeopardizes your academic or financial standing in the program, that sounds like something that might trigger your programs grievance process to. If this is something more personal about how faculty view you and you are worried out getting letters of recommendation in the future, you could probably address it on a more personal and informal level with the people involved.

Either way, by finding a way to address the issue, it will show a lot of initiative and strength when it comes time for internship or job interviews. Often enough interviewers will ask about how you handle conflict with peers, and you could use this as a great example!

 

[PsychPhDone]

I'm sorry you felt hurt by this. I am lucky that my program is much more cooperative than competitive, but I know that sometimes I feel competitive myself and have to keep myself in check. I'm not sure what happened to you, but you might consider talking to the person about it if it was serious. If not, let it roll off you and try to work with other people for a while.

 

[David broad]

I feel a competition is not very helpful. However, frequent performances in seniors' homes can really motivate practicing, as can exams for some students. Voluntary enrollment in festivals or talent shows can motivate competitive students, I concede....

 

[cara susanna]

I wish departments had talent shows!

 

[KillerDiller]

I wish departments had talent shows!

Oh, great, one more thing to prepare for. Just toss it down at the bottom of the long list .

Personally, I find it funny that our department holds potlucks. Wait, you want me to cook too? When, exactly?

 

[PsychPhDone]

Oh, great, one more thing to prepare for. Just toss it down at the bottom of the long list .

Personally, I find it funny that our department holds potlucks. Wait, you want me to cook too? When, exactly?

HAHA that's how I always feel about it!!!

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Make sure you keep a life for yourself outside of grad school. it's the only way to survive the competition INSIDE grad school.

Also, grow a really thick skin. Just remember to peel it off when you go home or else your "regular" friends and family will start wondering when you became a valkyrie.

Find like-minded people to talk to. They do exist!

 

[erg923]

Make sure you keep a life for yourself outside of grad school. it's the only way to survive the competition INSIDE grad school.

Also, grow a really thick skin. Just remember to peel it off when you go home or else your "regular" friends and family will start wondering when you became a valkyrie.

Find like-minded people to talk to. They do exist!

What, exactly, is the goal or object people are fighting over here? Attention, recognition, CV length, hoop dreams?

I was involved in a fairly active lab in gad school and can remember a couple mini-dramas about so and so not pulling their weight and the order of authorship a couple times, but other than that...nothing. Most projects were done together (its more efficient) and some were done on your own. Either way, I wasn't "competing" with anyone for a pub or poster or what not. If we werent working on a project togther, I dont think others really cared what you were doing, or not doing. If they wanted a poster or pub...they just did one too. All the resources were there and no one got any prizes for their production or anything. My stipend didnt increase and nobody hugged me and told me how special I was. Hence, why I have long been disenchanted with the publication process and the academic rat-race. The behavior/process never got reinforced. At least I didnt see any tangible benefits (good and necessary learning experience though). I saw my name on a piece of paper that other academics (aprox .001% of the population) will skim over...if Im lucky. RA-RA!

 

[RayneeDeigh]

What, exactly, is the goal or object people are fighting over here? Attention, recognition, CV length, hoop dreams?

Haha all of the above?

In my program at least (which I did some lengthy complaining about 4 years ago on these forums), the faculty themselves are pretty competitive with each other so it breeds student competition too. It's quite like high school. It goes so far as students being upset that their grade was a percentage less than someone else, even though we ALL know that grades in grad school aren't meaningful at all. Students fight over who's getting the practicum spots they want, whose reputation is generally "better" (because my department certainly doesn't hide who they like and who they don't like), and who has an advisor who actually helps them rather than ignoring them. So I think if my department is a shark tank there must be others that are like that too.

I tend to be a very cooperative and well, naive person so it was tough for me to come to terms with the cutthroat stuff that goes on, but now it doesn't even bother me. I keep my eyes ahead on the career I want and let all the other "stuff" just fall by the wayside.

 

[erg923]

It's quite like high school. It goes so far as students being upset that their grade was a percentage less than someone else, even though we ALL know that grades in grad school aren't meaningful at all.

The fact that they actually know, or attempted to find out, other ppls percentage sounds like the root of the problem here.

I think that really says it all about how the root of competition get planted. I never recall knowing, much less giving a ****, what percentage one of my cohort mates got an exam in our first couple years. Honestly, no one cared, lol. Age (older) and lifestyle (married and/or with children) may have aot to do with this as well.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

My program sounds fairly similiar to erg's--it was, more often than not, collaborative (or at least professionally congenial) rather than competitive. Then again, each year also seemed to have the mandatory student or two who was a bit more interested in other people's test scores and paper grades, and in making known their own grades, than seemed healthy.

I'm guessing a big part of this was related to the fact that there were never any battles for practicum spots or the like. If you wanted to work at a particular site or with a particular supervisor (whether in a clinical or research capacity), you simply let your advisor know, emailed the supervisor in question, and went from there.

Now socially, things were another matter entirely. Starting a few years after I began the program, I was always a bit surprised by the amount of gossiping that went on. It was still a minority of people participating, but it was definitely more prevalent than I'd initially thought it might be. Then again, what can I say--grad students are people, too, after all.

 

[KillerDiller]

My stipend didnt increase and nobody hugged me and told me how special I was.

You're very special, erg. I'm not giving you any money, though .

I'm always shocked to hear that this level of competition goes on in other programs, because I honestly can't imagine it. My department seems like a dream in comparison. No competition for resources, ample encouragement, not even any real gossiping (among my cohort at least). At times, I've even been known to generalize and talk about how clinical psychologists can be a bit too nice.

 

[erg923]

At times, I've even been known to generalize and talk about how clinical psychologists can be a bit too nice.

I had a friendly grad school experience in my department and all...but I dont know about all that. lol

Generally speaking, (clinical) psychologists tend to be some the most judgmental, type A people I have ever observed. Listening to a comittee talk about applicants after an interview day is horrifying. I've never seen people commit the fundadmental attribution error as grossly as academic clinical psychologists.

 

[KillerDiller]

Listening to a comittee talk about applicants after an interview day is horrifying. I've never seen people commit the fundadmental attribution error as grossly as academic clinical psychologists.

I wonder what causes these cultural differences (for lack of a better term). I've never heard the psychologists I've worked with speak baldly negatively about anyone without at least qualifying their remark with 50 mitigating phrases first.

Or maybe I just have an inaccurate impression and am not close enough with anyone to get under the surface facade .

 

[wigflip]

Generally speaking, (clinical) psychologists tend to be some the most judgmental, type A people I have ever observed. Listening to a comittee talk about applicants after an interview day is horrifying. I've never seen people commit the fundadmental attribution error as grossly as academic clinical psychologists.

Yikes!

 

[Psychadelic2012]

I've never seen people commit the fundadmental attribution error as grossly as academic clinical psychologists.

That's so true. And considering their knowledge of psychology/psychopathology, it's a true shock that they don't realize how they are projecting their own issues on others when they do such a thing. They really ought to be embarrassed.

On another note, I'd really like to know what schools you all go to!! Since I'm applying to PhD programs this year, it would really help to know where I should focus my attention and where to avoid--because, unlike some who care more about reputation or prestige, I would really like to go to a school that is collaborative and supportive. How do you supposed we can go about getting this information without spoiling your anonymity?

 

[cara susanna]

It's hard to say because it depends on your cohort.

 

[erg923]

Im not sure if the following is the cause of, or the result of, psychologist's tendencey to judge others quickly...but I notice that most academic psychologists assign a massive amount of predictive validity to interviews (even telephone interviews). Not only regarding what it would be like to work with that person, but also about that person's style and underlying personality. I really have not observed this in other professions with the magnitude I see it in academic psychology.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Im not sure if the following is the cause of, or the result of, psychologist's tendencey to judge others quickly...but I notice that most academic psychologists assign a massive amount of predictive validity to interviews (even telephone interviews). Not only regarding what it would be like to work with that person, but also about that person's style and underlying personality. I really have not observed this in other professions with the magnitude I see it in academic psychology.

Well, obviously it's something inside of them that is flawed, right? They're just snobs.

 

[KillerDiller]

How do you supposed we can go about getting this information without spoiling your anonymity?

You can PM me if you want.

 

[wigflip]

Im not sure if the following is the cause of, or the result of, psychologist's tendencey to judge others quickly...but I notice that most academic psychologists assign a massive amount of predictive validity to interviews (even telephone interviews). Not only regarding what it would be like to work with that person, but also about that person's style and underlying personality. I really have not observed this in other professions with the magnitude I see it in academic psychology.

I'm genuinely curious about this. Why do psychologists (according to above post--I don't have firsthand knowledge of this) judge people quickly? I realize that the context of such judgement is social, not clinical, but still, people are complex, nuanced. You could lose out on a crack researcher or clinician because s/he interviews poorly. Even psychologists acknowledge that a lot of behavior is contingent on interaction and context, right? It just strikes me as odd.

 

[hamsterpants]

I ended up with a great cohort. The cohorts above and behind me are pretty awesome too. I actually think I have the faculty to thank for this, as they seem to be looking for people who aren't just achievers but are easy to work with, like working with others and could make up a cohesive cohort. And that doesn't mean we are all alike, far from it. A super competitive attitude just wouldn't fly here. It's not perfect but most folks here are pretty sane, for grad students anyway

I actually don't know if I would have survived the first year without the support of my cohort (and some of the more advanced students).

 

[blindchaos]

The fact that they actually know, or attempted to find out, other ppls percentage sounds like the root of the problem here.

One of my profs once had the idea of posting grades in the powerpoint lecture to save himself time from all of us asking individually to see our grades. Instead of listing our names or student numbers, the prof had us all pick fake names privately (you could be Carmen Sandiego, Santa Clause, Aaron Rodgers, you name it) and then we turned the chosen names into the prof. He seemed well meaning in making sure nobody knew anyone else's grades, but...it's a small cohort, had been together for a couple years, and we all had an idea regarding where people typically fell on the grading scale based on prior discussions with one another and knowing our various strengths and weaknesses (for example, I freely admit and others know that stats is not my strong suit). Anyway...after a test, the prof posts the grades using the fake names, and with very minimal guess work, we all quickly knew the exact scores of everyone in the classroom, partially out of knowing where people typically fell and also because some fake names clearly pointed to specific people (ie: I'm a huge cheesehead so if I had picked Aaron Rodgers, that would be a dead giveaway and everyone would know it's me). There was a little good-natured ribbing (especially between peers who were 1-2 points away from one another) but it wasn't really a competition in my opinion (one could certainly argue that it was since comments were made comparing results, but in my subjective opinion, all comments I was aware of were all done in good fun and all parties laughed about it and it at least seemed to be honest joking rather than true competition or some kind of passive aggressive "joke"). Regardless, the prof canned the "fake name" grade postings and switched to sharing our grades with us individually once he figured out we all knew each others grades anyway