Competition to enter podiatry school

[different strokes]

What was the competition like to get into podiatry school in the late seventies and early eighties? Was it as competitive as allopathic school back then?

Is there a web page that would show what the entering GPA's and MCAT's were like for students applying during those times?

Just wondering.

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[drmoon]

Podiatry has never been as competitive as allopathic school. The requirements have never been as stringent including coursework, MCAT, etc.

I think the height of competitiveness for podiatry schools was in the mid to late 80's. DPM's were making hand over fist in the 70's and 80's so people were becoming more interested. The money started to dry up around 1990 and so did the interest. But it's always been more difficult to get into MD school.

 

[different strokes]

Thanks for the response, Dr. Moon.

 

[kylie]

there is NO competition currently

 

[drmoon]

I went to a podiatry seminar last month and was told by one of the surgery profs from CCPM that they were seriously hurting for students. He BEGGED all he saw to help get people to consider podiatry at CCPM. Pretty sad. I also heard that as of about 2 weeks ago, CCPM had 6 paid deposits! WOW!

This, along with many other facts, leads me to believe that there truly is NO competition to enter pod school. They've systematically lowered the requirements year by year and are not expecting even enough APPLICANTS for the spots available!! Have you ever heard of such a thing!!??

If you apply and don't get in I'm sure it was because of a paperwork screwup!

 

[the message]

I hope some of these fraudulent colleges close down. The rumor at OCPM is that they are $2,000,000 in debt. I know of a student whose refund check actually bounced last semester! OCPM is a joke!

 

[efs]

I hope to provide a slightly different point of view.

First, acceptance does not equal graduation or success.

While I think it is currently relatively easy to gain acceptance to podiatry school that is not the end of it. It is really only the beginning. You will still need to study and meet the requirements of the various courses along the way to graduation. Graduation does not mean that you will enter a residency or one that is high quality. Completing a residency does not mean you will have a job or bring in lots of money. All of these hold true for any program. However, easier accptance may mean it will be more difficult to get to the end goal.

Second, just becuase some schools have low application rates, or lower standards does not mean this holds true across the board. If you are accepted at DMU you will still be held to the same standards for passing courses as the DO students are. I have seen that there are fewer DPM students continuing to the second year among the DPM students than among the DO students. I won'tmake any judgement about the qualifications of either. Many of our DPM students have higher MCATs and GPAs than the DO students. Some don't. When you look at the averages I think they are fairly comperable, consider that there are fewer students in the DPM class.

From what I have seen, our school is looking for students who are serious about being DPMs rather than taking anyone who meets the minimum requirements.

It is not as competetive, but getting in does not equate with success. And, yes there are applicants who are not accepted.

 

[sandj9397]

eric give me a break..."relatively" easy Pod schools need students right now because they numbers are at a critical low. This will translate into putting poor students who they know are weak canidates into these seats because they have no choice. Something MD/DO schools do not to worry about. Unless you have numbers to back your claims do not make assumptions. In my fresh pod class at NYCPM the avg MCAT was a 19!! and there were some (not many) who had very strong grades better than some DO students somewhere I bet, but they are the minority. If educational standards are the same for DO and DPM students and fewer DPM students are advancing at DMU what does that tell us?
Plus, you will not pass judgement, but you hang out statements like:MANY DPM students have better grades than the DO students while some do not. Of course there will be excellent students in pod school but OVERALL the caliber of current pod students will not compare to any MD or DO school period.

Hey I know pod school is difficult and admissions do not correlate to the difficulty of training. But it has to correlate to something. Possibly career outlook, demand, earnings If there are so many happy pods out there why can't they collectively recruit 700 students out of the thousands of pre meds out there.

 

[sandj9397]

Its late and I ramble. Eric I am sorry for attacking everything you say. I understand what you are trying to say and you make valid points. I often misinterpet what you say because its late and Im tired and cranky, so I try to attack but its getting boring and fruitless. You have done an excellent job of defending podiatry. Shoot, you even got message on your side and he makes his school sound like real garbage. Dr. Moon has singlehandely sparked to this forum. It finally has some real activity. Even though its always come down to the same sh&*. Once again, sorry dude

 

[drmoon]

Here's some more input.

Clearly, the people who post on this forum have more than a modicum of intelligence and could have done just as well in medical school. I know that there were many students in my class who had very good grades, good to average MCAT's and were very clued in as to the finer points of medicine. Pod students often get a bad rap because they are perceived as unable to enter medical school. At the same token, I think that there is a higher percentage of pod students who have absolutely no business possessing a D.E.A license or (God forbid) have the right to perform surgery. This is in comparison with medical students. I might be wrong because I never went to MD or DO school, but I figured that there was at least 25% of my class who should never have been given the solemn responsibility to practice human medicine.

Now, as far as the admission standards. I think it would be hard to argue that the schools have not lowered their standards for admission. Pure economics and the number of applicants necessitates the schools to accept students who would never have been considered otherwise. This is certainly not to say that there aren't some students who are naturally bright, have good undergrad grades and who did reasonably well on the MCAT. There are just going to be proportionally fewer of them. I think that the future classes will find amongst their ranks a frighteningly high number of colleagues who should not have a needle, scalpel or, for that matter, a roll of tape in their hands. But, I think Darwinian principles will reign as usual, and many of these people will not even make it past the 2nd year.

Something else that bothers me a bit. I'm predicting that the schools will bend over backwards to keep these inadequate pod students in order to keep the funds rolling in. I know they did during my years and I can't imagine how embarassing it will become.

 

[efs]

OK, Kind of funny. Yes, I do think there might be one or two that I wouldn't want coming near me with a roll of tape. (of course, that is just my perception. Others might find them fine.) I honestly wouldn't put that number anywhere near 25%.

Smae thing with the DOs here though. There are more than a couple I wouldn't go see, not even for manipulation. Of course I could also point out more than a few in practice too. Getting into school (MD, DO, DPM, or whatever else) does not really change who you are. Some people have the right characteristics and some don't. There was a good paper written about this. (Journal of Medical Education Vol 46: 229, March 1971.) they determined what characteristics where important in physicians and considered ways that medical students might be selected based on these rather than by grades. The concept that high grades means a good physician has little basis in fact.

 

[sandj9397]

hey eric have they done anything to change the residencies in podiatry and eliminate the PPMR,POR and so on. Were they not going to switch it to a PG-1-3? I remember hearing something about it last yr

 

[efs]

Yes they are still working on changing the residencies. I beleive the current goal is to standardize them to some extent. I think tey are also working on integrating them with the board certification processes.

As it is a work in progrss I cannot comment on exctly where it stands at this point, as I do not know.

 

[drmoon]

I think I heard that the goal is to standardize the residencies (all two years with surgical training) by the year 2006.

And, regarding my prior comments, I think that the schools will let in some people who really don't have the tools to be successful as podiatry students. I'm not a huge advocate of the educational system, but I will say that the basic sciences were a BEEOTCH! I struggled just like everyone else and there were many who got "D"'s and "F"'s. But, I still think that the schools will be loathe to release ANY students based on poor academic performance. I'm not sure what this will all mean in the real world because getting good grades certainly does not portend an excellent future as a clinician. Sometimes podiatry requires some real intellectual skills and sometimes it doesn't.

I guess we'll see....

 

[thesaurus1]

Just to comment on Dr. Moon's statement. I just had an interview at Barry and the Dean himself said that next year's class will have to enter a minimum 2 year residency. This has passed nationwide and anybody graduating in 2006 and beyond will be required to have at least 2 years under their belt. Some could have more, depending upon specialization or other factors. Regardless, this may help some of the pods graduating now as well as perhaps strengthen the quality of pod graduating in the future.

 

[drmoon]

I can easily see that the class of 2006 will HAVE to enter a minimum 2 year residency, but the real question is - are they going to have enough quality 2+ year residencies to go around??

I'm naturally suspicious because when I was going to CCPM (1994-98) there was an impending residency shortage (forget about enough surgicals, they didn't even have enough residencies!). The schools' solution was to create a whole bunch of meaningless, worthless PPMR's/RPR's/POR's that staved off some lawsuits, but left students like me in a real predicament. Some of these were so bad that, at some, graduates were doing nothing more than visiting nursing homes and doing housecalls (and, occasionally, doing office work) to pad the accounts of some unscrupulous DPM's. I heard some real horror stories. My guess is that the schools are going to do another "end around" and make it APPEAR that they've solved the problem when, in fact, they've done nothing. It's not cynical. I'm just extrapolating from history.

So, I'll believe it when I see it. Creating these surgical residencies costs money, which neither the schools nor the APMA possesses. And, frankly, with the current admissions standards where they are, I have a hard time visualizing EVERY graduate performing even adequately in a surgical residency. Please trust me on this. Not everyone is podiatry school should be doing foot surgery.

 

[efs]

Whoa,

drmoon, take a step back and re-read the previous post and your response. They don't seem to be talking about the quite same things. It also doesn't look like you are keeping up to date with your reading. (Might want to look at the latest issue of JAPMA).

I will say that I do not have the latest and greatest bit of info. I have not yet heard that 2 years of residency will be required nationwide of all 2006 graduates. I do know that there is a movement afoot to try to standardize the residency process. Keep in mind that htis will take some time.

APMA, CPME and the JRRC are working on this issue. If you bothered to take a look at the latest issue of JAPMA they include some interesting numbers and data that do not jive with what some people would liek you to believe.

Be cynical. Don't believe what you are told. Don't accpet what others say. Take a look at the data yourself. Look a the hard numbers and make your own assessment. (This might require some thought and analysis, which may be beyond some people's ability). (As an aside, I can be a sarcastic bastard.)

The number of enrolled students has been relatively steady over the past 4 years, with the number of enrolled first year students higher than second year students. Attrition numbers are realtively low across the board (and in the single digits - for dismissals, somewhat higher for transfers and withdrawls.)

Entry level positions for PSR-24s has decreased, while positions in RPRs and PSR-12s has increased.

I do not thin the move towards two years of residency means that everyone will have a PSR-24. I think that more of the RPRs, PORs, and PPMRs are being linked with PSR-12s.

The move towards a 2 year standardized residency is a goal. It is not a current reality, but things are moving that way. Give it some time.

Before you jump on a bandwagon denouncing something, you ought to check your info.

 

[the message]

Has anybody have any info about the push for standardizing the residencies? Will there be enough residencies to go around?

 

[studentdpm21]

all you really need to get in is a pulse, well thats not totally true you just need an ability to get a federal loan

 

[chak_de_phatee]

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