Competitive AOA with AGCME back up

[Elevencents]

I couldn't find anything pertaining to this. Say you're interested in a competitive AOA specialty but are also interested in a less competitive specialty. Is it possible to try and match AOA for your competitive specialty and then if that falls through match to a less competitive specialty through AGCME since they occur at different times?

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[DopaDO]

I couldn't find anything pertaining to this. Say you're interested in a competitive AOA specialty but are also interested in a less competitive specialty. Is it possible to try and match AOA for your competitive specialty and then if that falls through match to a less competitive specialty through AGCME since they occur at different times?

Yup.

 

[SurgeDO]

I couldn't find anything pertaining to this. Say you're interested in a competitive AOA specialty but are also interested in a less competitive specialty. Is it possible to try and match AOA for your competitive specialty and then if that falls through match to a less competitive specialty through AGCME since they occur at different times?

I have heard of several people on these forums doing this.

 

[Elevencents]

Thanks fellas. With all the negativity in pre-Osteo lately confirming this particular incentive feels good.

 

[JGimpel]

This is actually what is done very often. Pre-match offers were given to competitive DOs in MD programs after a very good audition rotation for many years, which did confound the numbers a bit, though. That got thrown out in recent years as so many programs, both DO and MD, lied to candidates on multiple occasions to get them to rank their program higher so that they would have a better harvest of residents after the MD match. Bottom line: don't take any "pre-match" or "handshake" offers seriously. Stick with a proven plan.

If you apply to only competitive programs that are all "reach programs" for you and apply to a balance of medium vs. low-competitive programs in the MD match, this can work well for you, but it's still a big risk. The way that the "SOAP Rounds" work in the ACGME do make it more likely that you will match some position somewhere if you decided to forgo the DO match altogether, but it's still highly risky to do so.

I would look into these topics with some of your peers and preceptors to see what kind of experiences they've heard about and see what you all come up with as the best strategy, then stick with it until you get matched and have faxed back your signed contract.

Welcome to the game and may the odds be ever in your favor.

 

[cliquesh]

I think a big problem is having 2 sets of letters of recommendation, 2 personal statements, and 2 sets of "audition" rotations. Moreover, the competitive AOA residencies, like orthoepdics, basically require you to rotate at their program in order to get an interview, which would leave no time to rotate at an Acgme program or get recommendations for your second choice speciality.

Just to be clear, you do not need to rotate at Acgme programs to get interviews, which is in contrast to the competitive AOA residencies.

 

[Elevencents]

I think a big problem is having 2 sets of letters of recommendation, 2 personal statements, and 2 sets of "audition" rotations. Moreover, the competitive AOA residencies, like orthoepdics, basically require you to rotate at their program in order to get an interview, which would leave no time to rotate at an Acgme program or get recommendations for your second choice speciality.

Just to be clear, you do not need to rotate at Acgme programs to get interviews, which is in contrast to the competitive AOA residencies.

Ah ha. See, the personal statements and LOR's I did not think about.

As far as rotations 4th year, you could conceivably do your AOA specialty rotations first then do your back up rotations at the pertinent AGCME programs for LOR's since the AGCME match is later. Is that feasible?

There's obviously a very good chance I would change my mind, just trying to get my ducks lined up early in case it all stays true. I was thinking a surg subspecialty through AOA with a back up like PM&R or FM through AGCME. All totally hypothetical, just trying to get a grasp on options.

 

[cliquesh]

Ah ha. See, the personal statements and LOR's I did not think about.

As far as rotations 4th year, you could conceivably do your AOA specialty rotations first then do your back up rotations at the pertinent AGCME programs for LOR's since the AGCME match is later. Is that feasible?

There's obviously a very good chance I would change my mind, just trying to get my ducks lined up early in case it all stays true. I was thinking a surg subspecialty through AOA with a back up like PM&R or FM through AGCME. All totally hypothetical, just trying to get a grasp on options.

I think you can apply to AOA programs starting mid-july and acgme programs sept 15th. Its in your best interest to have your application ready day 1 or, at least, week 1. It's ideal to have all of your letters at that time, but it isn't required. Residency applications are different than med school applications. You DO NOT need a complete application to be considered for an interview invite. I received numerous interviews without any letters of recommendations or med school transcripts uploaded. I guess my early invites were based soley on my board scores.

The scenario you described is reasonable, but you dont have a lot of time. You'd need to do at least 1 PM&R rotation to get a LOR, and the rest need to be your AOA subspeciality. You really need to rotate at the AOA residencies to even have a shot. It typically takes a doctor a month or 2 to write a letter, maybe even longer.

 

[Elevencents]

Thanks cliquesh. Great information.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

I couldn't find anything pertaining to this. Say you're interested in a competitive AOA specialty but are also interested in a less competitive specialty. Is it possible to try and match AOA for your competitive specialty and then if that falls through match to a less competitive specialty through AGCME since they occur at different times?

Yup. I did this. DO ortho and MD EM.

Thank the good Lord ortho worked out. I would have murdered myself as an ER doc. However, if I were an ER resident, the tables would obviously look completely different.

 

[Elevencents]

Yup. I did this. DO ortho and MD EM.

Thank the good Lord ortho worked out. I would have murdered myself as an ER doc. However, if I were an ER resident, the tables would obviously look completely different.

I actually meant to PM you a while ago and forgot.

Could you outline your rotation process? Did you do ortho and then EM? Where did you end up? What did you think of your rotations? Especially if you rotated in Ohio, Michigan, or Oklahoma. I've heard its hard to do a fellowship in ortho as a DO. Thoughts? PM if needed 8)

 

[Jjkwest1]

I actually meant to PM you a while ago and forgot.

Could you outline your rotation process? Did you do ortho and then EM? Where did you end up? What did you think of your rotations? Especially if you rotated in Ohio, Michigan, or Oklahoma. I've heard its hard to do a fellowship in ortho as a DO. Thoughts? PM if needed 8)

I would like to know this as well.....thanks!!

 

[happypremed1]

I think you can apply to AOA programs starting mid-july and acgme programs sept 15th. Its in your best interest to have your application ready day 1 or, at least, week 1. It's ideal to have all of your letters at that time, but it isn't required. Residency applications are different than med school applications. You DO NOT need a complete application to be considered for an interview invite. I received numerous interviews without any letters of recommendations or med school transcripts uploaded. I guess my early invites were based soley on my board scores.

The scenario you described is reasonable, but you dont have a lot of time. You'd need to do at least 1 PM&R rotation to get a LOR, and the rest need to be your AOA subspeciality. You really need to rotate at the AOA residencies to even have a shot. It typically takes a doctor a month or 2 to write a letter, maybe even longer.

woah, I didn't know that residency applications are due so early in the 4th year. Am I in trouble if my school doesn't have elective rotation during the 3rd year?

 

[Elevencents]

woah, I didn't know that residency applications are due so early in the 4th year. Am I in trouble if my school doesn't have elective rotation during the 3rd year?

Most schools I've researched only have one block of electives third year. It's the early 4th year electives that matter.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

I actually meant to PM you a while ago and forgot.

Could you outline your rotation process? Did you do ortho and then EM? Where did you end up? What did you think of your rotations? Especially if you rotated in Ohio, Michigan, or Oklahoma. I've heard its hard to do a fellowship in ortho as a DO. Thoughts? PM if needed 8)

Ill just put my response here so whomever wants to see it can see it. I went to CCOM. We are only allowed 8 weeks of elective in any given field. Doesn't matter how you try to manipulate it.....they figure out somehow and knock you back down. So...I had 8 weeks to rotate.

I spent three weeks at Grandview, 2 weeks in Toledo, and 3 weeks in Columbus. The three weeks in Columbus don't count though because I went there AFTER they sent out their interview invites. They didn't bother to let me know that. As soon as I found out, I tried to leave but my medical school (MY MEDICAL SCHOOL) would not let me out of the rotation. I refused to show up at the ass crack of dawn on a service that I had no chance of getting into. So, I rotated in their ER. This was early November. It was then that I decided, I better have a backup plan because Im not sure ortho is going to work out after having only gone to two places. So, mid November, which is obviously late, I sent out a barrage of applications to MD ER programs. I had a couple bites. Even got a "We think you would do well in our program" from Al Einstein in Philly. I got that letter from them the week before the DO match. My program typically calls their three around Thanksgiving. I hadn't heard **** from anyone. Do I take the EM spot? Do I not? I decided to let the match happen. I ranked my residency program #3 because I thought I had the least chance of matching.

As to the comment "I've heard its hard to do a fellowship in ortho as a DO"

Class of 2010
1. Hand Surgery - University of Cincinnati/Mary S Stern Fellowship (first DO)
2. Sports Medicine - Hughston Clinic
3. Adult Recon - UC Davis

Class of 2011
1. Hand Surgery - Christine M Kleinert Hand and Microsurgery Fellowship
2. Trauma - I dont remember
3. Joints - Harvard/New England Baptist

Class of 2012
1. Sports Medicine - Oschner Clinic
2. Sports Medicine - UCF
3. Sports Medicine - Taos Ortho Institute

Class of 2013
1. Hand Surgery - U Alabama
2 General ortho - voluntarily no fellowship
3. F&A - New England Foot and Ankle Specialists

Class of 2014
1. Peds Ortho - Wash U Saint Louis
2. Hand Surgery - U Buffalo
3. Adult Recon - Wake Forest

What you heard? It's wrong.

 

[cliquesh]

woah, I didn't know that residency applications are due so early in the 4th year. Am I in trouble if my school doesn't have elective rotation during the 3rd year?

No, it's okay. Most hospitals, especially hospitals with residency programs, do not take 3rd year medical students for electives unless the medical student's school is directly associated with the hospital. So it's not like you'll be able to do a PM&R rotation at a university hospital as a 3rd year. As Eleven mentioned, early 4th year rotations is what you should be looking for.

 

[DarkHorizon]

Agreed with Buckeye(oh)

In my program
Class of 2006:
1. Sports med: Plancher sports med
2. Hand: university of Connecticut

Class of 2007
1. Private practice
2. Spine: Michigan Brain and Spine Institute

Class of 2008
1. private practice
2. Sports: Beaumont

Class of 2009
1. Trauma: University of New Mexico
2. Hand: MCW

Class of 2010:
1. Spine: New England Baptist
2. Private practice

Class of 2011
1. Adult recon: Baylor
2. private practice

Class of 2012
1. Sports med: University of Cincinnati
2. Private practice

Class of 2013
1. Adult recon: Emory
2. Spine: Spine institute of AZ

Class of 2014
1. Spine: Regions St. Paul
2. Private Practice

Fellowships are wide open from what I understand.

 

[Elevencents]

Great info guys. Thank you!

 

[JGimpel]

The day you change your mind about your specialty, spend at least an hour or two writing all of the things you'll need to change quickly to make the new plan happen. See what hospitals in the area you're at have an open spot, even for 2 weeks, to rotate through the new specialty, like the EM or Ortho examples above. Make any excuse to interact with any attending in that department, the weekend/night/covering attending is your best bet because he has all the connections but won't pimp you mercilessly, and tell him that your interest in X field has changed to his and if he has any advice on what the next best step (in management ) would be. Once you have a plan, THEN check with your school admissions coordinator on what the options truly are for you to switch. This usually will entail having someone take your spot at the other rotation and getting the paperwork for the new one done in time to start there at morning report of the first day. Hand written notes on your own stationary are always a good touch and don't cost much from the online printers practically giving the first batch away these days.