comprehensive reproductive health education?

[jane70]

i just wanted to see what people's thoughts are on including optional (not mandatory) access to abortion education in medical school curriculum? most schools and residency programs don't offer this education (including mine)

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

Well, I can see it causing a big problem with funding, tax dollar and otherwise.

 

[SMRT]

Well, I can see it causing a big problem with funding, tax dollar and otherwise.

Would you care to expand on that? Not all abortions are elective termination of an unwanted pregnancy. There are also performed in the case of a risk to the health or life of the woman, or when the fetus has malformations incompatible with life outside the womb. There need to be physicians trained to do this.

 

[Rendar5]

Would you care to expand on that? Not all abortions are elective termination of an unwanted pregnancy. There are also performed in the case of a risk to the health or life of the woman, or when the fetus has malformations incompatible with life outside the womb. There need to be physicians trained to do this.

This is true, but I don't see why this needs to be part of the medical curriculum. It sounds like it should be placed more in a residency curriculum.

 

[Hallm_7]

Would you care to expand on that? Not all abortions are elective termination of an unwanted pregnancy. There are also performed in the case of a risk to the health or life of the woman, or when the fetus has malformations incompatible with life outside the womb. There need to be physicians trained to do this.

Those are the exceptions, not the rule. We had a speaker come in this week from a local abortion clinic and she gave some national statistics.

3% are for health of mother - which is also VERY broadly defined
2-3% are for abnormalities to the fetus
1% is from rape or incest

There's a reason medical schools and residencies don't train their students and residents.....it comes down to funding and a lack of people willing to actually do them. The minute you start training people to do abortions is the minute you'll see a drastic decrease in the amount of financial support from many community members and alumni. Also, there are very, very few medical students who would participate. Half the class would never dream of doing them since they'll be pro-life, and even most pro-choice students would refuse to do them in my opinion. Also, there aren't that many people trained to do them....partly due to moral and ethical issues and partly due to financial issues (abortions are not very cost effective....high malpractice and low reimbursement), so you'd have a hard time finding people to teach others how to do them as well.

 

[Hallm_7]

Also, another reason is that a lot of the teaching hospitals in the US are religious in nature...either Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Jewish, etc. and abortion goes against everything they stand for.

 

[Rendar5]

Also, another reason is that a lot of the teaching hospitals in the US are religious in nature...either Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Jewish, etc. and abortion goes against everything they stand for.

Abortion is allowed in Judaism. Life of the mother trumps life of an unborn babe (for health reasons. even though this is not the majority of the abortion cases in this country, the procedures are still gonna be the same).

 

[jane70]

Hallm_7...
how do you know "most students would refuse to do them"? you said this is your opinion....what about the thousands of medical students that seek this education outside of medical school at independently set up internship programs in clinics? also if what you say is true, that there "aren't many people trained", how is abortion one of the most common procedures done every year and how have 45% of all women gotten a safe, legal abortion?

 

[jane70]

hallm_7... I also wanted to ask you how did your school have a speaker from a clinic? does your school offer this education?

 

[thegoogler]

We learn to counsel patients to quit smoking, eat healthier diets, and get more exercise. I think we should also learn to counsel sexually active women about their birth control options. Making birth control more available to women who want it is an important step in reducing the demand and need for abortions!

 

[Hurricane]

We learn to counsel patients to quit smoking, eat healthier diets, and get more exercise. I think we should also learn to counsel sexually active women about their birth control options. Making birth control more available to women who want it is an important step in reducing the demand and need for abortions!

I agree. During my OB/GYN rotation, a large part of the outpatient experience was learning to counsel women about birth control options. It was great, and I learned a tremendous amount. However, the amount of birth control training was variable depending on which hospital you were rotating - a lot where I was (a Methodist hospital) but much less at the Catholic hospital. I think it's a shame that I got such an in-depth education WRT birth control options while my fellow students assigned to the Catholic hospital did not. This disparity is recognized at the residency level - their residents rotate at other non-Catholic hospitals to get training in reproductive endocrinology, for example.

As far as abortions during med school goes, I don't think it's feasable to make it part of the main OB rotation, from a practical standpoint. At least in my city, the abortion docs work out of Planned Parenthood and a few private clinics, not the two main local health systems in which our students routinely rotate. Also, there probably would be some students who would refuse or object, and the administrator of the rotation isn't going to want to deal with that logistical nightmare. However, most schools are pretty flexible when it comes to 4th year elective rotations, and I'd guess that a student could set something up with these clinics if they wanted to. A lot of med school is like that - just ask if you're interested in something, and you can do whatever you want. For example, I was able to a day at the REI lab/clinic even though it wasn't part of the official OB rotation.

 

[Hallm_7]

Hallm_7...
how do you know "most students would refuse to do them"? you said this is your opinion....what about the thousands of medical students that seek this education outside of medical school at independently set up internship programs in clinics? also if what you say is true, that there "aren't many people trained", how is abortion one of the most common procedures done every year and how have 45% of all women gotten a safe, legal abortion?

This wasn't so much my opinion really.....we know that there are currently more people who oppose abortion in the US than those who support it. http://www.zogby.com/Soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=6982 Assuming that those statistics will hold roughly true with the average medical school class and assuming that pro-life students would refuse to perform an abortion then it's pretty obvious that most wouldn't participate. This is all something of a moot point since abortion is something to be learned in residency than medical school. Just to point this out...you're statistic that 45% of women have had an abortion are waaayyyyy overstated. There have been between 40 and 50 million abortions in the US since 1973. There are currently 300 million people in the US...150 million women. That's only about 30% and that's assuming no women have had two abortions and also forgetting that the number of women living now is much smaller than the total number of women living between 1973 and now. Actual percentage is probably in the 10-15% range of all women.

BTW the lady that came and talked to us was invited by the local Medical Students for Choice club.

 

[erin682]

We've actually just had some lectures on this topic in my 2nd year class. There truly is a shortage of doctors who are trained abortions and the problem is getting worse. Most of the doctors trained in abortions are over 50 and are having trouble finding new people willing to be trained. Few Ob/Gyn residencies have any training in abortion. Some have an elective program but not many residents choose to participate. The barriers to training are the obvious ones, financial reimbursement is poor, harrassment from pro-life people can be problematic to threatening. I would link you guys to this article they gave to our class but its through our passworded site so I can't. But yeah its definately a real issue.

 

[india7]

hallm_7
you need to research more than pro-life/anti-choice sites..

http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/women_who.html
or
http://www.agi-usa.org/media/presskits/2005/06/28/abortionoverview.html

1.3 million women get an abortion each year; 1 in 3 women..that's alot more than 10-15%.
And this is not a moot point since in medical school we do learn how to do procedures (abortion can be taught to medical students who want the education; it does not have to be mandatory either). I see you're in your first year....I know in my 3rd year (i'm 4th now) I saw in the ED women coming in with botched back-ally abortions....I hope this influences you when you get there. women are going to continue having abortions whether they're legal or not.

I also agree that we need to educate patients much more on birth control and make it more available!!

 

[jane70]

according to gallup polls, more americans are in favor of not overturning roe v wade...


Gallup's January report on abortion, which showed that nearly two-thirds of Americans--63 percent--are either content to leave abortion laws as they are or want abortion laws to be less restrictive.

and

results from October polling by Gallup, showed that more than two-thirds of Americans--67 percent--opposed a constitutional amendment to overturn the Roe vs. Wade decision and make abortion illegal in all states.

http://www.gallup.com/

 

[trudub]

Asking whether or not someone wants to overturn Roe v Wade is not the same as asking someone whether they are for abortion. Some people believe Roe v Wade should be in place for practical purposes. They believe that women will continue to get abortions whether legal or not and believe the law allows for safe procedures. However, I would say there is certainly a fair amount of the population that supports Roe v Wade for practical purposes that are actually against abortion for ethical, religious, or personal reasons. So, while these people would say they would not overturn Roe v Wade they would never have an abortion themselves and would never perform an abortion if they were in the place to have that training.

 

[sparky5]

I go to a school in "the catholic tradition" meaning our board of trustees are catholic but other than that there is no offical school wide stance. Our OB.GYN club can't have planned parenthood come in and talk, and generally abortions aren't talked about. Someone in another thread mentioned this group for those who are pro-choice and interested in learning more about abortions, and reproductive health. I thought it was a good site so I'd pass it on. Personally, I am going to do a 4th yr rotation at a clinic so I can learn the pro-choice things that aren't taught at my hospitals. http://www.ms4c.org/

 

[lilmo]

Last year (as an M1), I spent 2 mornings at a women's health clinic observing. This was a really eye-opening experience. I was able to follow the patients through the whole procedure, from check-in and counseling until they left. Whether or not I chose to learn and perform this procedure I'm glad for the educational opportunity. In the future I will be better prepared to counsel my patients.

For future education, MSFC (med students for choice) worked really hard last year to implement an optional half-day experience for students to shadow an abortion provider during their ob-gyn rotation at my school.

 

[Rendar5]

hallm_7
you need to research more than pro-life/anti-choice sites..

http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/women_who.html
or
http://www.agi-usa.org/media/presskits/2005/06/28/abortionoverview.html

1.3 million women get an abortion each year; 1 in 3 women..that's alot more than 10-15%.

1.3 million women get an abortion each year is not 1 in 3 women. As for the stat that 35% of women will receive an abortion by the age of 45, I'm not sure where the math for that is, so you cannot accept that stat as true (it depends if they're estimating based on incidence rate, prevalence, and whether or not they are going by number of abortions or number of women). iIf you actually incorporate that 1.3 million women per year into the number of years that have occurred since Roe v Wade (32 now?), you should arrive at a number that is somewhat close to the numbers in the post you are trying to refute. He's also estimating, btw. I think he reduced the number too much. If he's right about the US population being around 300million people, 35% does not take into account women who have mad multiple abortions (ur site says 52% have never had a previous one, 26% have had one previous one. women w/ multiple abortions is then 48% of women who have had abortions women w/ a few abortions is 22%).

So it looks like overstatements from both sides of teh fence (10-15% seems low. 45% is extremely high. 35% sounds like its also a statistical fabrication). of course, finding a non pro-RoevWade and anti-RoevWade (the pro-life/pro-choice designation is false since there are plenty of pro-life pro-choicers. But it's besides the point).

 

[india7]

It's on the basis of current abortion rates, 1 in 3 US women will have had an abortion...

http://www.agi-usa.org/in-the-know/index.html

Medical Students for Choice is a great organization! They do alot of good work to bring this issue to light...that we are in an environment where it is becoming legal but innaccessible. This is entirely relevant to medical students...we do need this education in medical school not just in residency (where it's also a fight to get education on women's reproductive health including abortion).

Pro-choice/Pro Roe v Wade whatever is not mandating that people who don't want abortions should get one...but anti-choice/ant-roe v wade is imposing their opinions by telling people (women) what they can and cannot do.

 

[SMRT]

Just to clarify, the statistic is that is it estimated, based on current trends, that approximately 40% of all women will have had a least one abortion by the end of their reproductive years. Fam Plann Perspect. 1998 Jan-Feb;30(1):24-9

My school also offers a half-day opt-in training in abortion procedures during the 3rd year ObGyn rotation. I don't see any reason why, if there are willing students and willing physicians to teach, that an introduction to abortion training should not be provided to medical students.

 

[Rendar5]

haha, yeah, but try getting someone who's against Roe v. Wade to identify themselves as "anti-choice". That 1 in 3 by 45 statistic still seems to come from faulty statistical application, though. 1.3 mil per year, 30 reproductive years, half of people getting abortions have 2 or more total, so 2/3 of abortions are repeat-abortions, last two things might be faulty statistics on my part. 150 million women in US. I still don't understand 30-40% being at all descriptive of reality. It seems like a statistical calculation that is used to derive a high number and then is incorrectly used in forming arguments (that is, ignoring what the calculated number actually signifies)

It's on the basis of current abortion rates, 1 in 3 US women will have had an abortion...

http://www.agi-usa.org/in-the-know/index.html

Medical Students for Choice is a great organization! They do alot of good work to bring this issue to light...that we are in an environment where it is becoming legal but innaccessible. This is entirely relevant to medical students...we do need this education in medical school not just in residency (where it's also a fight to get education on women's reproductive health including abortion).

Pro-choice/Pro Roe v Wade whatever is not mandating that people who don't want abortions should get one...but anti-choice/ant-roe v wade is imposing their opinions by telling people (women) what they can and cannot do.

 

[Rendar5]

Just to clarify, the statistic is that is it estimated, based on current trends, that approximately 40% of all women will have had a least one abortion by the end of their reproductive years. Fam Plann Perspect. 1998 Jan-Feb;30(1):24-9

My school also offers a half-day opt-in training in abortion procedures during the 3rd year ObGyn rotation. I don't see any reason why, if there are willing students and willing physicians to teach, that an introduction to abortion training should not be provided to medical students.

oh cool. i'll try to look that article up this week. i'm pro-choice, but if there's one thing that irks me, it's improper use of statistics in forming arguments (from either side), and my quickie mental estimations don't seem to be agreeing with any statistic i've seen so far.

 

[sportsman]

so it doesn't seem based on here that "Also, there are very, very few medical students who would participate"
the MSFC (medical students for choice) club also works hard at my school at getting educational opportunities and they get alot of participants. i know b/w 1st and 2nd year summer there were a fair # of students that did the MSFC sponosored internship in a clinic.
Basically the thing is most of us are going to be physicians someday and we should have this education available to us if we want it. There are (contary to what you said) physicians that are able and willing to pass on this education (alot of them were influenced by all the pre-Roe women dying of sepsis).
Personally, it makes me mad that we have to fight for this education and even justify wanting it based on some people pushing their values and telling others what they can and cannot do.
Yeah, abortions can be a hard thing to watch. I'm pro-choice but I still had a hard time initially in my internship. But the bottom line for me is I don't want it to go back to women coming is with sepsis b.c of illegal abortions and physicians facing legal ramifications. I'm a guy so I'll never be pregnant, but if i was a woman I wouldn't want someone telling me what I can do or can't do.
BTW Hallm_7 out of curiosity, why did you go to the MSFC event? to disrupt?

 

[lizbjrddnr]

Edit: I retract any and all opinions I may ever have had, and I will never have any more again, because apparently I get spammed if I have any that aren't politically "correct"...

 

[Rendar5]

Oh... so Roe v Wade isn't correcting the "problem" it was supposed to prevent?



Umm, but they are legal right now. So - legalizing them was good for - what? Oh, that's right, lifestyle maintenance AKA freedom of choice (minus the 10% or so medical reasons).

While I remember reading about the "problem" in the Roe v Wade opinions, I don't remember correcting the problem to be the primary goal or motivation of the Supreme Court decision. Maybe I'm wrong about that. If so, could you point me to where in the opinions this came up?

 

[Hallm_7]

I went to listen to what the other side has to say. How can we ever come to a consensus within our own minds of what is good/bad or what works/doesn't work if you don't listen to both sides of the issue? Are you saying that conservatives should only listen to Rush Limbaugh and read the Wall Street Journal Op-Ed and liberals should only read the New York Times Op-Ed and listen to Al Franken? There were no disruptions during the whole thing, and everyone came out better understanding the legal issues and difficulties facing abortion.

 

[jane70]

yeah, you're technically right of course, abortion is legal. with increasing restrictions to abortion access there are more women needing to turn to medically unsafe abortions, ie back alley. so with the passing of the hyde amend in '77, cutting off medicaid for low income women, you have poor women that have a much harder time accessing safe abortions. or teenagers who for whatever reasons can't tell their parents so can't get parental consent/notification or can't go thru judicial bypass, turning to unsafe abortions. or women that don't live in the few 13% of counties that actually have a provider and can't take time off work/school to drive to another city, check in, and then wait the mandatory 24 hours now needing to turn to untrained people. yeah of course roe v wade prevented this and lowered the number of dying women! it's the restrictions that are raising it; that's why we're seeing more women coming in with botched back alley abortions.
this is the work of the pro-"lifers" to chip away at roe v wade. making it legal but inaccessible. so much for the life of the woman.

 

[lilmo]

Oh... so Roe v Wade isn't correcting the "problem" it was supposed to prevent?



Umm, but they are legal right now. So - legalizing them was good for - what? Oh, that's right, lifestyle maintenance AKA freedom of choice (minus the 10% or so medical reasons).

I'm confused. Roe v Wade has increased safe abortion access, yet has not made access universal. Many women still have a difficult time finding a provider in their area.

I hope I misunderstood, but you seem to be implying that women use their freedom of choice to engage in promiscuous behavior. And while I don't have the facts/statistics handy to refute it, as a women I believe this to be completely untrue.

Perhaps instead of placing the blame of unprotected sex on the right to choose, we should instead be increasing safe-sex education.

 

[Rendar5]

I'm confused. Roe v Wade has increased safe abortion access, yet has not made access universal. Many women still have a difficult time finding a provider in their area.

I hope I misunderstood, but you seem to be implying that women use their freedom of choice to engage in promiscuous behavior. And while I don't have the facts/statistics handy to refute it, as a women I believe this to be completely untrue.

Perhaps instead of placing the blame of unprotected sex on the right to choose, we should instead be increasing safe-sex education.

the rawer stats on some of the sites did have the majority of abortions among people who don't use proper birth control. Also, increasing easy access to OCT emergency contraceptions would drastically reduce the abortion rate (since its effectiveness decreases every 6 hours u wait, and waiting to get it through a doc is gonnabe 2-3 days)

 

[lilmo]

the rawer stats on some of the sites did have the majority of abortions among people who don't use proper birth control. Also, increasing easy access to OCT emergency contraceptions would drastically reduce the abortion rate (since its effectiveness decreases every 6 hours u wait, and waiting to get it through a doc is gonnabe 2-3 days)

It would be interesting to see why these women did not use proper birth control:

a) it was unavailable to them
b) they didn't know how to properly use it (lack of education)
c) they didn't bother using it (were too lazy, didn't care)

I'm guessing option c, would be a minority.

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

It would be interesting to see why these women did not use proper birth control:

a) it was unavailable to them
b) they didn't know how to properly use it (lack of education)
c) they didn't bother using it (were too lazy, didn't care)

I'm guessing option c, would be a minority.

a)7-11 was closed, sorry kid, couldn't get a condom. Time for an abortion?

b)are the majority of those who have abortions that ignorant? Condoms are pretty self-explanatory (and even come with directions on the package in most cases)

c)I think that's the most likely: couple didn't want to think about it during heat of the moment, guy was being stubborn didn't want to wrap it, etc.

 

[india7]

Oh... so Roe v Wade isn't correcting the "problem" it was supposed to prevent?



Umm, but they are legal right now. So - legalizing them was good for - what? Oh, that's right, lifestyle maintenance AKA freedom of choice (minus the 10% or so medical reasons).

Of course making abortion legal reduced the number of women dying from illegal abortins! But that certainly does not mean that all women now have access to safe, legal abortions. Whether or not people want to admit it or realize it, some women still need to turn to untrained people and are subjected to all that entails (ie they can't afford it, teenagers, women who don't want to be in the volatility of a clinic...). Yes, the women I saw were either teenagers and were scared to tell their parents and needed parental consent, or just could not afford it.

and legalizing abortion was NOT for "lifestyle maintenance". It's about many things, not the least of which is not having someone else make decisions for you.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Oh... so Roe v Wade isn't correcting the "problem" it was supposed to prevent?

this is about the most ignorant comment i've ever read at sdn, which is pretty pathetic. since you're training to be a health care professional, perhaps you should do some research. one, roe v. wade wasn't designed to fix the problem of back alley abortions. it was designed to protect our right to privacy. it was based on constitutionality, not practicality. two, access to care is a huge issue in the abortion area these days. sure, abortions are legal, but with limited providers, reimbursement opportunities and with restrictions like parental notification and one day waiting periods, poorer women, young women and rural women essentially have no chance to have a legally performed abortion.

the limitations to roe v. wade have been placed by its enemies. the fact that these limitations have been successful in undermining a woman's ability to exercise her legal rights is no reason to get rid of the right to begin with.

as for the initial question, i plan on being trained in performing abortions if i go into ob/gyn, which is on high list partially for this reason. medical students 4 choice actually has a website where residency programs discuss whether or not residents get the chance to learn how to perform abortions. when i'm applying for residencies, i assume i'll be utillizing that site a lot.

 

[sportsman]

I agree...this was an amazingly ignorant comment. Perhaps there was some sort of misunderstanding, to give lizbjrddnr the benefit of the doubt.
Care to respond lizbjrddnr? I also plan on being trained in abortions if I go into Family Practice, as alot of those docs now do them too.
On another note, how do people deal with pro-lifers at their school trying to disrupt or obstruct MSFC work at increasing education? At my school there is a group that tears down MSFC flyers, tries to dominate Q and A during MSFC events/using it as a platform, or complains to administration that we exist. Thoughts?

 

[Gimlet]

On another note, how do people deal with pro-lifers at their school trying to disrupt or obstruct MSFC work at increasing education? At my school there is a group that tears down MSFC flyers, tries to dominate Q and A during MSFC events/using it as a platform, or complains to administration that we exist. Thoughts?

From what I have seen at my school, MSFC and MSFL have a very cordial relationship with each other...at least they stay out of each other's way. It's a shame that people in med school would be so childish as to stoop to these kind of tactics and disrespect one another so much. If you are involved with MSFC at your school, I guess the first step would be to make sure your group isn't doing the same thing back to MSFL.

 

[THP]

as for the initial question, i plan on being trained in performing abortions if i go into ob/gyn, which is on high list partially for this reason. .

Are you seriously considering going into ob/gyn so you can perform abortions? That is one of the more morbid things I have ever heard.

 

[sparky5]

Are you seriously considering going into ob/gyn so you can perform abortions? That is one of the more morbid things I have ever heard.

Are you seriously in medical school? How did you pass the MCAT if your reading comprehension was/is so low. The poster who you cited said IF they went into OB the would do abortions. Not that they WOULD go into OB b/c they got to do abortions. I don't mean to be harsh but are you trying to troll or did you just not understand what was written?

and in answer to your question I think that could be a super altruistic thing to do if they were doing it to provide a scarce resource so that people in need can get good care and not have to use sketchy medical care. If I was a female and thus felt more comfortable in the OB/GYN setting I might consider that route.

 

[jane70]

Are you seriously considering going into ob/gyn so you can perform abortions? That is one of the more morbid things I have ever heard.

We need more people that are willing to confront this provider shortage and will provide the service that is without a doubt needed (if it wasn't a needed service there wouldn't be the whole issue). Then people (especially poor, young, and rural women) wouldn't have to turn to untrained individuals. Which, Lizbjrddnr, is who we see come in with sepsis and whatnot. As it stands now, 87% of counties don't have a single provider.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Are you seriously considering going into ob/gyn so you can perform abortions? That is one of the more morbid things I have ever heard.

No, I don't want to be a doctor just so I could provide abortions, but I wouldn't think that would be particularly morbid even if that were my motivation. I would like to help women with their health concerns, including their concerns about reproductive issues, which makes ob/gyn seem like an appealing field to me. If I were an ob/gyn, I probably wouldn't only provide abortions, but I would like to have that be a part of my practice since women don't have enough access to providers.

 

[tigress]

haha we call my boss (a doctor) THP. She's a toughie

 

[THP]

Are you seriously in medical school? How did you pass the MCAT if your reading comprehension was/is so low. The poster who you cited said IF they went into OB the would do abortions. Not that they WOULD go into OB b/c they got to do abortions. I don't mean to be harsh but are you trying to troll or did you just not understand what was written?

and in answer to your question I think that could be a super altruistic thing to do if they were doing it to provide a scarce resource so that people in need can get good care and not have to use sketchy medical care. If I was a female and thus felt more comfortable in the OB/GYN setting I might consider that route.

Actually, if you'll read what I quoted, that is exactly what was said. I am not a troll and I did understand what was written. The 2 responses after yours provide a reasonable response.

As much as I disagree with abortion I can understand those who might incorporate it into their practice. However, I do not understand choosing a ob/gyn because you have a desire to perform abortions. I would almost interpret that as "hoping" women have unwanted pregnancies just so you can terminate them. (Well, maybe not that extreme but I think you understand the jist of the point).

 

[Suppuration]

I would almost interpret that as "hoping" women have unwanted pregnancies just so you can terminate them. (Well, maybe not that extreme but I think you understand the jist of the point).

I'm sure the surgical oncologists would be interested in this line of reasoning.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Actually, if you'll read what I quoted, that is exactly what was said. I am not a troll and I did understand what was written. The 2 responses after yours provide a reasonable response.

As much as I disagree with abortion I can understand those who might incorporate it into their practice. However, I do not understand choosing a ob/gyn because you have a desire to perform abortions. I would almost interpret that as "hoping" women have unwanted pregnancies just so you can terminate them. (Well, maybe not that extreme but I think you understand the jist of the point).

I don't think you're getting where I'm coming from. Admittedly, my interest in ob/gyn is partially political. Women do have a legal right to have abortions, and that is obstructed by the lack of providers. IMO, that's a plus for pursuing ob/gyn. I have other reasons why I'm interested in it -- mainly that I would like the population I'd be serving. Of course, I haven't started medical school yet, so I don't know, I might hate it. However, if I do become an ob/gyn or go into fp (not considering that one, but it could happen), I expect to be trained on providing abortions. To me, I wouldn't be able to serve my patients' critical needs if I couldn't perform an abortion.

As an aside, if I go into ob/gyn, I'm also going to be actively involved in other reproductive health issues such as access to birth control and education about sexual issues. I would like to see fewer abortions, not because women just don't have the option of getting them but because they have reliable options to avoid getting pregnant. Abstinence-based sex ed and blocking of things like plan b otc are impediments to reducing unwanted pregnancies, imo.

 

[tigress]

I don't think you're getting where I'm coming from. Admittedly, my interest in ob/gyn is partially political. Women do have a legal right to have abortions, and that is obstructed by the lack of providers. IMO, that's a plus for pursuing ob/gyn. I have other reasons why I'm interested in it -- mainly that I would like the population I'd be serving. Of course, I haven't started medical school yet, so I don't know, I might hate it. However, if I do become an ob/gyn or go into fp (not considering that one, but it could happen), I expect to be trained on providing abortions. To me, I wouldn't be able to serve my patients' critical needs if I couldn't perform an abortion.

As an aside, if I go into ob/gyn, I'm also going to be actively involved in other reproductive health issues such as access to birth control and education about sexual issues. I would like to see fewer abortions, not because women just don't have the option of getting them but because they have reliable options to avoid getting pregnant. Abstinence-based sex ed and blocking of things like plan b otc are impediments to reducing unwanted pregnancies, imo.

Okay, but here's a good question: do you think abortion needs to be taught in MED SCHOOL? Couldn't it wait for residency? Residents learn a lot of procedures they never learned to do in med school; I mean, look at surgical residents.

I'm totally pro-choice (though I usually call myself pro-choice and anti-abortion). I'm just wondering about the utility of learning abortion in med school, when the majority of students will never have a need for it again. Having the option to observe and/or help with an abortion seems like a good alternative for students who are interested, while allowing students who are anti-abortion to opt out. I suppose that brings up the question of OB/GYN residents: should abortion be a standard part of their education? I would think so, but at the same time, residents should be able to opt out if they want to.

 

[sparky5]

residents should be able to opt out if they want to.

I think that since an abortion is a medical procedure it should be treated as such. It residencies let their residents opt out of any procedure on ethical grounds then they should be able to opt out of abortion, but I think there should be universal polices in training programs, not issue specific rules.

That said I would love it if it was offered as an option.

 

[THP]

I'm sure the surgical oncologists would be interested in this line of reasoning.

There is no moral equivalency between removing a tumor and performing an abortion. (of course, this is the root of the debate but here is not the appropriate thread to discuss this aspect of it)

 

[THP]

I think that since an abortion is a medical procedure it should be treated as such. It residencies let their residents opt out of any procedure on ethical grounds then they should be able to opt out of abortion, but I think there should be universal polices in training programs, not issue specific rules.

That said I would love it if it was offered as an option.

Obviously, if you want you can learn it, doctors are being trained in it but I would caution you not to be too enthusiastic about it.

 

[tigress]

I think that since an abortion is a medical procedure it should be treated as such. It residencies let their residents opt out of any procedure on ethical grounds then they should be able to opt out of abortion, but I think there should be universal polices in training programs, not issue specific rules.

That said I would love it if it was offered as an option.

I agree that it should be treated as a medical procedure. However, I can't think of another medical procedure that is so fraught with moral issues and emotion.

OTOH, something could be said for mandatory training in abortion for OB/GYNs and maybe a few other specialties (EM?), just because there might be emergency situations in which it's necessary. I'm just not sure this comes up often enough to justify making everybody who wants to do OB/GYN learn something they are morally opposed to. But since I haven't practiced medicine I really don't know.

 

[12R34Y]

well..........this debate should become even more vigorous in the not-so-distance future since BUSh is appointing (and will surely pass) a very conservative spot on the supreme court. Roberts already on the court and a third retirement expected before Bush's 3 years is up.

More than likely abortion will soon be gone, along with gay rights etc....

stay tuned folks.

later