Condescending PI

[Algophiliac]

I had to leave during the Spring semester for a medical issue, and since that time, my PI has been behaving extremely rudely. Apparently he believes my particular medical issue was not severe enough to warrant leaving, or that I am somehow less of a human being because of it.

We never really got along well, because his manner is not very...mentoring, I guess I could say.

However, the research I am doing is somewhat interesting and the experience I will be receiving until the upcoming December is truly priceless--I am not sure where else I could get such excellent experience, and that truly worries me. But as for getting a good future LOR from him...I highly doubt it. And I heard not sending an LOR from any former PI is a bad sign? Any tips? What should I do? Should I find a better new lab?

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[Lacipart]

LizzyM (member of an adcom) once wrote this regarding whether or not to get a letter from your PI

First off, you should always get a letter from the guy who tells you what to do in the lab. If you put this on the list as an "experience" and you don't have a letter, someone may wonder why. So whether it will be good, very impressive, or whatever, you want this guy to write a letter. Even though he doesn't watch you work he knows if the work is getting done, if stuff is getting wrecked or wasted in the lab, if your lab books are neat and up-to-date, if you work well with others (or not), if you pull your weight, if you make the place more pleasant. That's often the stuff that people mention in letters, besides the yada yada of what the lab does and the research studies underway.
LizzyM

 

[ThaliaNox]

From the perspective of a PI, the lab is everything. You've gone and shown him that it is not always everything to everyone that works there. Oops!

Anyway, it will look funny if you work two years in a lab and don't get an LOR. Really funny. Are you sure you can't mend the relationship?

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

maybe he's just prepping you for academic medicine. thank him!

 

[Algophiliac]

From the perspective of a PI, the lab is everything. You've gone and shown him that it is not always everything to everyone that works there. Oops!

Anyway, it will look funny if you work two years in a lab and don't get an LOR. Really funny. Are you sure you can't mend the relationship?

I know. This is part of the reason I am not faulting him for anything, but I am finding that his attitude is just a tad rude. How responsible would it have been of me to ignore medical issues until I dropped dead? My family and I lost a considerable bit of money on that semester, and we would not have gone through a withdrawal process lightly because of this. While the lab is very, very important to me (or at least, research is, because I enjoy it), my life needs to take precedence. I feel as though having to defend myself against his comments is taking it too far. I handled it as respectfully as I could have done, but again...we were never on good terms, and this hasn't made it any better.

Hmmm, what about if I work in other labs the following years and remain devoted to them over a longer time period? Would I have to get LORs from all of them?

I am certain he could write me a "decent" letter, but that doesn't cut it for medical school, and that is my issue.

EDIT: I also want to point out that I spent practically twice as much time as everyone else in the lab, put in twice as much effort, yielded twice as many results...and when he called *me* at 7 PM on a Friday evening to finish up the last of the current experiments, I was there, and everyone else was suddenly extremely busy. Saying all that, it is simply difficult to get along with him for anyone--he picks favorites and ignores everyone else, and unfortunately I am not in that category and it is probably too late for me to try for it.

 

[empty p orbital]

What is a PI?

 

[sshashid87]

Principle Investigator...basically the professor who runs the lab...

 

[EscapedGoat]

maybe he's just prepping you for academic medicine. thank him!

LOLOLOLOL.

When I was looking for a lab gig, I passed on 10+ paid opportunities and took a volunteer gig, just so I could work for a PI with a great reputation. After hearing all these PI horror stories, I'm glad I did.

 

[LizzyM]

Your only option is to forget this ever happened and leave it out of the experience section and not ask for a letter. If it isn't on the experience section, no one will miss the letter. You are not obligated to list any specific experience in the experience section (it isn't like omitting a course from among your course listings).

Pick a new lab and start over.

 

[Prism328]

what if he gets into another lab and get a good recommendation from that PI. Can he still list the previous experience? I worked in 2 labs, I didn't have a bad experience with the first one, just wasn't that interested in the research. I did get a recommendation from my 2nd PI and since I only need a rec from one PI, I'll just get one rec from that lab I like even though I listed my 1st lab as another experience. So I think you could add your crappy lab to your experiences section as well as your good lab and just get the rec from the PI you like. Med schools don't expected a letter from multiple PIs right?

 

[LizzyM]

. Med schools don't expected a letter from multiple PIs right?

For sure the MD/PhD programs do. The others... you might be asked in interview as a way for probing why you switched labs (suspecting a problem).

 

[Algophiliac]

Your only option is to forget this ever happened and leave it out of the experience section and not ask for a letter. If it isn't on the experience section, no one will miss the letter. You are not obligated to list any specific experience in the experience section (it isn't like omitting a course from among your course listings).

Pick a new lab and start over.

Is this really my best option?

The reason I hesitate switching labs is because he actively teaches me quite a bit--not something most lab PIs do at my school, I hear. For example, he teaches how to write research papers, instructs in very basic lab techniques, such as PCR...all things I would be lucky to know when searching for other labs in the future. And he also permits me to get many credits from the lab experience, also providing opportunities for paid positions in the future.

But again, I feel as though he would neither choose me for the paid positions nor provide a good LOR. Could I stick it out this summer for the lab credits (and then never mention it was research in my application) but not come back in the fall? Also, would research in a psychological lab look bad?

 

[drizzt3117]

Is this really my best option?

The reason I hesitate switching labs is because he actively teaches me quite a bit--not something most lab PIs do at my school, I hear. For example, he teaches how to write research papers, instructs in very basic lab techniques, such as PCR...all things I would be lucky to know when searching for other labs in the future. And he also permits me to get many credits from the lab experience, also providing opportunities for paid positions in the future.

But again, I feel as though he would neither choose me for the paid positions nor provide a good LOR. Could I stick it out this summer for the lab credits (and then never mention it was research in my application) but not come back in the fall? Also, would research in a psychological lab look bad?

how does that count as non-mentoring? And you peaced out when you were getting credit for doing research? I'd probably be annoyed too if I were the PI.

 

[Algophiliac]

how does that count as non-mentoring? And you peaced out when you were getting credit for doing research? I'd probably be annoyed too if I were the PI.

He doesn't mentor--he doesn't actually do the teaching, but grad students in his lab are told by him to instruct undergrads in basic lab techniques, writing papers, and etc, so I do learn quite a bit. And I actually meant mentoring more in an emotional sense--he doesn't really take a vested interest at all in most of his students. We actually have very minimal contact with him, as he prefers it that way.

Yes, but I am making this up twofold in the summer for him...or at least, I am supposed to be. I will receive no credits until he thinks I have done enough work for him, so that is not really a point of annoyance for him.

 

[Algophiliac]

Do you plan on seriously pursuing research as part of your career, MD/PhD or otherwise?

I was considering MD/PhD or at least definitely academic medicine with some form of research, be it clinical, translational, or bench. So do I stay for the experience or leave for the LOR?

 

[venacontracta]

I was considering MD/PhD or at least definitely academic medicine with some form of research, be it clinical, translational, or bench. So do I stay for the experience or leave for the LOR?

Good letters from previous labs will be far more important for an MD/PhD applicant, or an applicant who obviously puts a large emphasis on research compared to other MD applicants. I would get out of there ASAP and find a lab where the relationship with the PI will result in a good letter. Lab skills and research article writing skills will serve you well and it would be nice to develop them now, but if you do not, you will pick them up later and it will not limit where you can go in the future. Having mediocre letters from past research experiences will limit where you can go.

Sadly, sometimes you've just got to play the game, and I think this is one of those times.

This all assumes you are early enough in your undergrad career that you have time to have a meaningful experience at another lab (so you can just leave your current lab off your applications completely).

 

[drizzt3117]

How long have you worked in the lab? It's certainly possible you'll be able to repair the relationship... but if you don't think it's possible, then maybe move on. I believe some schools do require you get a letter from EVERY PI you've worked with, though.

 

[zombymush]

I mean, it really doesn't hurt to just ask. 'Can you write me a positive recommendation letter?' If he says no, then move on, but it's a shame to leave without even asking.

I thought my PI was a cold-hearted dictator. The woman was a genius, but oftentimes so unapproachable. I learned a lot too, and I sucked it up and asked for a reference. She was actually really happy that I asked her. --> Yea, blew my mind.

So just ask.

 

[sideways]

Toss a pube in his coffee.

 

[Cyradis]

Here's a thought (since it's what happened with me and I'm in so it was clearly okay):

Between 1st/2nd year I worked in a research lab - did a mediocre job to be quite honest, I was sort of miffed at how little I was getting paid so I didn't really do nearly as good of a job as I should have. However, it was a valuable experience still in terms of what I learned and it was a clinical lab, so I sort of wanted to draw on that. Thus, I included it on my work activities but no LoR (as in your case, if he did write me a LoR it wouldn't have been BAD, but not GOOD)

Why was this okay you ask? Well I worked at another lab 2nd/3rd, and then another one for 3rd/4th (and this same one for my thesis). I had a great relationship with my PIs from both these labs, and had LoR from both of them. So those 2 + someone who supervised me in a normal course + an employer rounded out my 4 ref letters.

I don't think they really had an issue with it since I had 3 research experiences of sorts, and I had LoR from the 2 most recent.

Long story short - ditch the lab and move on to another one.

 

[Algophiliac]

Good letters from previous labs will be far more important for an MD/PhD applicant, or an applicant who obviously puts a large emphasis on research compared to other MD applicants. I would get out of there ASAP and find a lab where the relationship with the PI will result in a good letter. Lab skills and research article writing skills will serve you well and it would be nice to develop them now, but if you do not, you will pick them up later and it will not limit where you can go in the future. Having mediocre letters from past research experiences will limit where you can go.

Sadly, sometimes you've just got to play the game, and I think this is one of those times.

This all assumes you are early enough in your undergrad career that you have time to have a meaningful experience at another lab (so you can just leave your current lab off your applications completely).

Where would I be able to pick them up later? I am very interested in learning how to write research articles, actually, but I realize a good PI is worth more...which will be sad for me, because I loved the grad students and other undergrads in the lab, unfortunately!

I am going into my sophomore year, and the lab PI will be getting rid of us in December, so I would have to find another lab anyway! He is keeping maybe 1-2 of us, and I know I won't be those 1-2 people. But I feel like if I leave him now, I might not find another lab soon enough...and wouldn't that look horrible on my application?

 

[cfx]

He doesn't mentor--he doesn't actually do the teaching, but grad students in his lab are told by him to instruct undergrads in basic lab techniques, writing papers, and etc, so I do learn quite a bit. And I actually meant mentoring more in an emotional sense--he doesn't really take a vested interest at all in most of his students. We actually have very minimal contact with him, as he prefers it that way.

Pretty sure this is how it works in EVERY lab. What is it that you're afraid a new lab will lack?

As an undergrad, there will likely always be someone in the lab (grad student, post doc, PhD, whatever) who will instruct you for a while. No one would expect you to come in with all knowledge you will ever need, knowing how to do everything. Generally, you should also expect to not have a ton of contact with the PI. I've been fortunate to be in labs with very involved PIs, but they still do little or no work in the actual lab, and spend most of their time concerned with grants, papers, etc.

 

[wholeheartedly]

"Condescending PI" my immediate response to this is that sounds redundant


Having had an issue like this myself, only you know the specifics of your situation and can weigh the pros and cons of leaving vs. staying and in what time frame to do so. I do think that if you have other lab experiences down the road that you use on your app that you can back with solid letters you probably wouldn't need a letter for this one unless you're doing the MD/PhD route.

 

[ThaliaNox]

If you're only going into your sophomore year, I'd ditch this lab. Since you had to leave the lab for personal reasons for a while this year, you haven't even worked there for a year. Get another lab and be sure to cultivate a better relationship with the PI. It's politics, I know, but it's your job to deal with it.

Also, just so you know, many PIs dislike freshmen. They don't have the skills to contribute without a lot of supervision, and do not understand the theory behind the research because they don't have the background yet. It is likely that once you're a bit futher along as an undergrad you will be treated less condescendingly. (Although there are PIs who think all undergrads are annoying...)

 

[Algophiliac]

Pretty sure this is how it works in EVERY lab. What is it that you're afraid a new lab will lack?

As an undergrad, there will likely always be someone in the lab (grad student, post doc, PhD, whatever) who will instruct you for a while. No one would expect you to come in with all knowledge you will ever need, knowing how to do everything. Generally, you should also expect to not have a ton of contact with the PI. I've been fortunate to be in labs with very involved PIs, but they still do little or no work in the actual lab, and spend most of their time concerned with grants, papers, etc.

At my school, my PI's lab is actually renowned for producing the best undergraduate researchers, the best (but not most, unfortunately) papers, a very tight-knit community of undergraduates, and etc. Although I am sure I can find another lab and get research experience, I am worried about the quality of the experience--I don't want to just be washing dishes, of course! However, I have only worked in the lab for maybe 2-2.5 months, so technically, maybe leaving it off my resume would not be a problem? Maybe I should try to join another lab while still being in this one to see if the switch is worth it? Maybe I should try to join a smaller lab, so I have more time with my PI for discussions and for him/her to get to know me?

I don't know. I also can't get over the feeling that maybe I can and should try to mend this relationship. After all, I can't switch attendings on clinical rotations, now, can I?

 

[cfx]

At my school, my PI's lab is actually renowned for producing the best undergraduate researchers, the best (but not most, unfortunately) papers, a very tight-knit community of undergraduates, and etc. Although I am sure I can find another lab and get research experience, I am worried about the quality of the experience--I don't want to just be washing dishes, of course! However, I have only worked in the lab for maybe 2-2.5 months, so technically, maybe leaving it off my resume would not be a problem? Maybe I should try to join another lab while still being in this one to see if the switch is worth it? Maybe I should try to join a smaller lab, so I have more time with my PI for discussions and for him/her to get to know me?

I don't know. I also can't get over the feeling that maybe I can and should try to mend this relationship. After all, I can't switch attendings on clinical rotations, now, can I?

I guess I'm not entirely clear what the issue is between you two. Is it just that he wasn't happy you took some time off, so he said a few less-than-flattering words, or is there a pattern of behavior that indicates he does not like you and you may never get along? What is the severity of the situation?

You should keep in mind that scientists often aren't the most warm and fuzzy. I had a PI who I would swear really did not like me, until I learned second-hand that she thought I was doing a great job, I was one of the best students she ever had, yada yada. She turned out to be a big advocate of mine, and I'm very confident that she wrote me a glowing letter. It just wasn't in her personality to give people "strokes". My point being, if your only issue is that he comes across a bit short with you, ask around and maybe everyone else gets the same treatment, and it's just his nature.

That aside, if you're at a large research university, I'm sure there are TONS of labs. You should be able to find another one to your liking. IMO, the quality of the undergrad researcher is dependent on the person way more than the lab, and I wouldn't stick with something just because all the undergrads are close. You're not there to make friends.

 

[austinap]

I had to leave during the Spring semester for a medical issue, and since that time, my PI has been behaving extremely rudely. Apparently he believes my particular medical issue was not severe enough to warrant leaving, or that I am somehow less of a human being because of it.

We never really got along well, because his manner is not very...mentoring, I guess I could say.

However, the research I am doing is somewhat interesting and the experience I will be receiving until the upcoming December is truly priceless--I am not sure where else I could get such excellent experience, and that truly worries me. But as for getting a good future LOR from him...I highly doubt it. And I heard not sending an LOR from any former PI is a bad sign? Any tips? What should I do? Should I find a better new lab?

Can you schedule a meeting with him to talk about his expectations and what it would take for him to write you a good letter? PIs can be a strange breed, and their mannerisms to you in the hall way aren't always reflective of what they'll write in a letter about you. I've known PIs that got along terribly with graduate students, but then bent over backwards to get them into labs and jobs that they wanted. Talk to him. Maybe he's stressed out about something else, etc.

 

[Algophiliac]

I guess I'm not entirely clear what the issue is between you two. Is it just that he wasn't happy you took some time off, so he said a few less-than-flattering words, or is there a pattern of behavior that indicates he does not like you and you may never get along? What is the severity of the situation?

There is definitely a pattern of behavior that revolves around how our personalities are vastly different, leading to an odd dislike from him. He seems to find my goals ridiculous for me personally, because he has a low opinion of me. I am not the most intelligent undergraduate in his lab, I have to admit, but I put in the work, and I am nowhere near the worst. I feel almost as though he has a low opinion of me because I put in the work. How odd is that??

You should keep in mind that scientists often aren't the most warm and fuzzy. I had a PI who I would swear really did not like me, until I learned second-hand that she thought I was doing a great job, I was one of the best students she ever had, yada yada. She turned out to be a big advocate of mine, and I'm very confident that she wrote me a glowing letter. It just wasn't in her personality to give people "strokes". My point being, if your only issue is that he comes across a bit short with you, ask around and maybe everyone else gets the same treatment, and it's just his nature.

That aside, if you're at a large research university, I'm sure there are TONS of labs. You should be able to find another one to your liking. IMO, the quality of the undergrad researcher is dependent on the person way more than the lab, and I wouldn't stick with something just because all the undergrads are close. You're not there to make friends.

Many, but nowhere near everyone, get the same treatment...but he has never been outright rude with anyone as he has been with me over the semester withdrawal issue.

And, austinap, should I really ask about that only 2-2.5 months in, especially after recently leaving the lab and only having been through one year of college? Wouldn't that only look very bad to him, like I'm only in his lab for the future LOR? Huh.

 

[austinap]

And, austinap, should I really ask about that only 2-2.5 months in, especially after recently leaving the lab and only having been through one year of college? Wouldn't that only look very bad to him, like I'm only in his lab for the future LOR? Huh.

I'd be careful not to make it sound like you're only looking for a LOR, but keep in mind that regardless of your goals, he knows that you'll eventually need one. Maybe set up the meeting as something like a "status update" or something like that: just have a brief discussion, clear the air, ask what his expectations are, if there's anything you could be doing better, etc. Don't push it, but let him know that you're interested in improving in areas you may be lacking in.

 

[333296]

I had/have this same issue with one of my PIs, and I'm not asking him for a rec. I actually asked him to write a letter for a summer research program, and he showed me what he wrote and it was abysmal. It was a single paragraph, and the only positive thing was that I "rank well among the other students."

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I also get the feeling that having positive recommendations is more of an expectation than anything else, and that while they can't necessarily get you in, negative recommendations will definitely keep you out. I really don't think you should risk having a negative rec.

This only applies if you have some other research experience that you can get a rec from and that you can justify as "more applicable" or something.