Confessions of a Burnt Out Physician

[PL198]

Beyond vaccines and neonatal genetic screening (which don't require a doctor) there's no high quality (level A) evidence to support any other preventive measures in children.

Some other preventive measures such as obesity, tobacco use, and visual acuity screening have level B evidence, but don't require regularly scheduled doctors visits either.

http://www.uspreventiveservicestaskforce.org/Page/Name/recommendations

Slate has a good series of articles on the subject.

Primary care:

http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...ctor_when_you_re_not_sick_does_more_harm.html

Peds specific:

http://www.slate.com/articles/doubl...r_child_to_the_doctor_and_when_to_stay.2.html

http://www.slate.com/articles/doubl...ick_to_prescribe_antibiotics_for_toddler.html

good stuff, was unaware

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[Psai]

I didn't insinuate anything about women and math skills, stop looking for things that aren't there. If someone can't understand the economics behind 1 employee with a 50 % slower production rate than another, then they're not being rational enough for a productive conversation. And those women aren't misogynists or chauvinists right, because only men can be those things, right? Just like how only white people can be racist. I can't take someone seriously that uses buzzwords to lead off an argument, even if they have an MD after their name. It makes someone sound like a toddler when the first aspect of a point is attacking the character of the other person, which you succeeded in doing as well.

"Good health-care" is arbitrary and nonsensical. You have a job, with a supervisor. If you produce 50 % slower than your peer, you will face repercussions. Stop trying to spin medicine into a special snowflake where you get to do as you wish and play by a different set of rules than everyone else.

There shouldn't be a superviser in the first place. The only people who know what being a doctor is like are doctors. The time it takes to do a procedure isn't the only important thing to consider. What about complications? Long term follow up? There are different ways to do procedures that have their pros and cons. And since when was medicine all about producing widgets for corporate masters? We are supposed to be doing what's right for the patient. You look at the world in a superficial, simplistic manner and it looks bad on you

 

[PL198]

There shouldn't be a superviser in the first place. The only people who know what being a doctor is like are doctors. The time it takes to do a procedure isn't the only important thing to consider. What about complications? Long term follow up? There are different ways to do procedures that have their pros and cons. And since when was medicine all about producing widgets for corporate masters? You look at the world in a superficial, simplistic manner and it looks bad on you

well the doctors should get good at running businesses then. and they didn't. so someone that did took over. you can't have your cake and eat it too. everybody that has a job is constrained by the economics of that job. typical medical student wants to focus on memorizing FA and learning nothing about running a business, so they work for someone that understands how to run one. the people that can handle the business side of things have their own groups and do pretty well. the people that went to just memorize medicine and ignore all other subjects in life, well tough luck you're going to have someone watching over you making sure the bottom line is met. god forbid there be penalties for not giving a crap about anything besides medicine.

it's funny because the two areas where most students are inept is finance and politics, yet of anything, those are the two subjects complained about the most. hm I wonder why. if you purposefully take out your influence in a sector because you don't care about it ( we're talking on the profession-wide level here), then it's pretty easy to see how your views aren't going to be taken into account. maybe students could read a financial book or form an opinion about something political that isn't based off what their facebook friend said, instead of reading robbins or going over their notes for the 10th time. this is what the profession gets for the students operating in a bubble where all they care about is school. newsflash: the crap going on around you is pretty important as well.

 

[PL198]

for some reason my computer is auto correcting its to tis, guess in anticipation of the holiday season or something

 

[Sirach38]

There shouldn't be a superviser in the first place. The only people who know what being a doctor is like are doctors. The time it takes to do a procedure isn't the only important thing to consider. What about complications? Long term follow up? There are different ways to do procedures that have their pros and cons. And since when was medicine all about producing widgets for corporate masters? We are supposed to be doing what's right for the patient. You look at the world in a superficial, simplistic manner and it looks bad on you

This. Doctors are not assembly line workers. We didn't go to school for 12+ years for some ******* with a bachelor's degree and some major connections/ass kissing skills telling us how we should take care of our patients. Non-doctors telling doctors how they should practice medicine is absolutely and utterly disgusting. These motherf?&@"$ don't give a s*%^* about patient safety or patients in general. All they care about is stuffing their fat pockets with cash.

 

[Kahreek]

i too wish i could marry a rich man and leave the practice.

 

[Psai]

well the doctors should get good at running businesses then. and they didn't. so someone that did took over. you can't have your cake and eat it too. everybody that has a job is constrained by the economics of that job. typical medical student wants to focus on memorizing FA and learning nothing about running a business, so they work for someone that understands how to run one. the people that can handle the business side of things have their own groups and do pretty well. the people that went to just memorize medicine and ignore all other subjects in life, well tough luck you're going to have someone watching over you making sure the bottom line is met. god forbid there be penalties for not giving a crap about anything besides medicine.

Tis funny because the two areas where most students are inept is finance and politics, yet of anything, those are the two subjects complained about the most. hm I wonder why. if you purposefully take out your influence in a sector because you don't care about it ( we're talking on the profession-wide level here), then Tis pretty easy to see how your views aren't going to be taken into account. maybe students could read a financial book or form an opinion about something political that isn't based off what their facebook friend said, instead of reading robbins or going over their notes for the 10th time. this is what the profession gets for the students operating in a bubble where all they care about is school. newsflash: the crap going on around you is pretty important as well.

Do you understand anything about the world? Do you understand anything about medical students? There's no time in medical school for anything besides medical school. Doctors are being constrained by the government, insurance companies, lawyers, management companies, hospitals. The main reason why doctors are getting bought up by big groups is because the cost is too high to work independently. Without mid levels, you cannot cover your overhead because electronic medical records are prohibitively expensive and they are mandated by the government. They are poorly designed, add to administrative burden, don't communicate with one another (wtf?) and cost tens of thousands of dollars per "provider". There is a larger payment for the same exact procedure from performing procedures at a hospital rather than an outpatient setting due to facility fees. Hospitals are buying each other up like never before and large management companies swoop in and undercharge for services to outcompete older groups who are forced to sell out for a large payment. None of this is happening because medical students only memorize fa. You are a second year medical student but somehow you don't know anything

 

[PL198]

Do you understand anything about the world? Do you understand anything about medical students? There's no time in medical school for anything besides medical school. Doctors are being constrained by the government, insurance companies, lawyers, management companies, hospitals. The main reason why doctors are getting bought up by big groups is because the cost is too high to work independently. Without mid levels, you cannot cover your overhead because electronic medical records are prohibitively expensive and they are mandated by the government. They are poorly designed, add to administrative burden, don't communicate with one another (wtf?) and cost tens of thousands of dollars per "provider". There is a larger payment for the same exact procedure from performing procedures at a hospital rather than an outpatient setting due to facility fees. Hospitals are buying each other up like never before and large management companies swoop in and undercharge for services to outcompete older groups who are forced to sell out for a large payment. None of this is happening because medical students only memorize fa. You are a second year medical student but somehow you don't know anything

there's plenty of time. stop making excuses. the reason students go into bubble mode is its easier to do well in school. well again newsflash kiddies, doing well in medical school isn't the only thing important in life. you have a falsely bleak understanding of private practice numbers. and yes, all of this is happening because medical students only memorize FA. if they understood the business behind things, they would be the ones responsible for the changing economic conditions. yet they don't, so someone else does.

it's really pathetic how people pull the victim card, with big bad administrators and " some dude with a bachelors telling you how to practice." alright well learn the crap yourself and the dude with a bachelors doesn't have to exist. yet the avg student/doc can't be bothered with doing so, and so there is a need for that guy. medicine is going to increasingly feature market forces. it's not good enough anymore to just sit there and be like " patient safety, screw money." no, that's stupid. you can sit on the porch and complain about someone who understands money actually running your practice, or you can understand it yourself and be that person. not a difficult choice in my mind.

stop acting like you're 70 years old and adapt to the changing world around you. don't blame others. if you aren't aware of the medical student bubble then either you're in it, or you're in lala land.

 

[PL198]

those supervisors exist for a reason. nothing is created without a purpose. the base issue here, is ask yourself why those supervisors are created and if you oppose their creation, how can prevent that from happening. taking on the capabilities of that supervisor seems like a pretty simple solution.

 

[Psai]

You have zero experience in clinical medicine and therefore do not understand why there is no time since all you know is having control over your schedule as a preclinical student. What "crap" are you talking about that students should learn and how would that change anything? You haven't addressed a single thing in my post and just regurgitated your own narrow-minded views

 

[sloh]

Hate to be a pessimist but I think it's onerous to try and buck the system. It's incumbent on the medical student to solicit GENUINE feedback from attendings especially during preclinical and clinical years, which can unfortunately be a difficult task. Then make an informed decision on what specialty to enter. I know many students eschew going on sdn bc there's a lot of doom and gloom compared to the idealistic portrayal of medicine from fellow med student peers that makes the heart feel warm and fuzzy. But if you can truly parse the information especially by perusing the resident/attending sub-forums, it's an invaluable resource.

 

[sloh]

Geez TIS the season for sure

 

[PL198]

You have zero experience in clinical medicine and therefore do not understand why there is no time since all you know is having control over your schedule as a preclinical student. What "crap" are you talking about that students should learn and how would that change anything? You haven't addressed a single thing in my post and just regurgitated your own narrow-minded views

nothing of what I said is based on clinical medicine experience, so that's irrelevant. I don't think it's a debated fact that many physicians have both poor financial and political awareness. again, these people aren't made magically. if there wasn't a need for one ( IE physicians could also keep money in the back of the minds) then theyd do it themselves. people don't want to hire an additional person unless they have to. I addressed everything you said, have no idea what you're talking about. stop taking the easy way out by playing the victim card w/ big bad administrators and figure out my MDs aren't the administrators..

 

[jw3600]

Beyond vaccines and neonatal genetic screening (which don't require a doctor) there's no high quality (level A) evidence to support any other preventive measures in children.

Some other preventive measures such as obesity, tobacco use, and visual acuity screening have level B evidence, but don't require regularly scheduled doctors visits either.

http://www.uspreventiveservicestaskforce.org/Page/Name/recommendations

Slate has a good series of articles on the subject.

Primary care:

http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...ctor_when_you_re_not_sick_does_more_harm.html

Peds specific:

http://www.slate.com/articles/doubl...r_child_to_the_doctor_and_when_to_stay.2.html

http://www.slate.com/articles/doubl...ick_to_prescribe_antibiotics_for_toddler.html

Good stuff man.

 

[jw3600]

Aaaaaand, we're back to using redpill terminology, discounting complaints of women as trite (clearly!), and insinuations that women are bad at math. Because math is the determinant of what is right and good in the world. Perhaps it should occur to one to consider that high numbers may not be the only determinant of good healthcare even if it might bring in extra cash.

Secondly, just because there are some women who hold an opinion that women being unhappy in whatever job must have to do with their ovaries/babiez/biotruths doesn't mean that they are actually right.

The droned up anti-woman charges are pretty unnecessary. If I wanted to see that I would head over to TwoXXChromosomes.

 

[Entadus]

I think both @Psai and @PL198 have valid points. I mean, it's absolutely true that a lot of these management types have very little productive worth in healthcare, and shouldn't be telling docs how to practice. But it should be easy to agree that a big part of the problem is squarely on the shoulders of doctors who do not take the time to educate themselves on finance and business practices. We are constantly hearing how private practice is doomed, physicians are going bankrupt, etc. .... but docs COULD have a lot more power than they make use of. It's ridiculous to put your head in the sand and pretend that docs are prohibited from learning this stuff.

EDIT: I think a big part of the problem which has not been addressed is how docs lose their bargaining power when they are crushed by massive debt. If you NEED a paycheck to make all the payments on your student loans, mortgage, car payments, credit card debt, etc, you will not be able to negotiate your salary/hours/working conditions as effectively as someone who is debt-free and accurately estimates their value. The ideal situation is to be successful in private practice or academia, but in the case of working for a big corporation, many docs are spineless because they have NEGATIVE NET WORTH. It's crippling and much of it is the docs' fault. Learn how to manage your money!

 

[DermatoFIGHT]

I'd rather make 60k a year working for myself than 150k a year living on my knees to some douchebag employer that would only cut you loose and screw your career up if they could save a dollar doing so.

People in medicine should be more inventive and protect their turf more. The "I will save the world" types are the ones that have allowed medicine to be taken over because they never wanted to be small business owners, their mentality was that of basic employee. The types that take selfies and instagram their mission trip to some country to say "look at me being an almost doctor".

Real life is cold and ruthless and all these premeds and grandiose personalities entering medicine have harsh reality checks when they get out. Eat or be eaten.

 

[Entadus]

I'd rather make 60k a year working for myself than 150k a year living on my knees to some douchebag employer that would only cut you loose and screw your career up if they could save a dollar doing so.

People in medicine should be more inventive and protect their turf more. The "I will save the world" types are the ones that have allowed medicine to be taken over because they never wanted to be small business owners, their mentality was that of basic employee.

I'm not sure how you made that conclusion, but I agree that less money with autonomy >>> more money with a s#!tty work environment. The real problem is that docs feel they deserve that 150K, 200K, etc., and not only that, they REQUIRE it in order to maintain their precious lifestyle. "Well I'm a doc so I need to live in a mansion on snob hill and send my kids to the best privates"

 

[PL198]

I think both @Psai and @PL198 have valid points. I mean, Tis absolutely true that a lot of these management types have very little productive worth in healthcare, and shouldn't be telling docs how to practice. But it should be easy to agree that a big part of the problem is squarely on the shoulders of doctors who do not take the time to educate themselves on finance and business practices. We are constantly hearing how private practice is doomed, physicians are going bankrupt, etc. .... but docs COULD have a lot more power than they make use of. Tis ridiculous to put your head in the sand and pretend that docs are prohibited from learning this stuff.

EDIT: I think a big part of the problem which has not been addressed is how docs lose their bargaining power when they are crushed by massive debt. If you NEED a paycheck to make all the payments on your student loans, mortgage, car payments, credit card debt, etc, you will not be able to negotiate your salary/hours/working conditions as effectively as someone who is debt-free and accurately estimates their value. The ideal situation is to be successful in private practice or academia, but in the case of working for a big corporation, many docs are spineless because they have NEGATIVE NET WORTH. Tis crippling and much of Tis the docs' fault. Learn how to manage your money!

are you saying tis because of a freudian slip(understandable) or are you trolling by using it(commendable, that's what I'd do) or is there something wrong with my computer where for some reason its sometimes appears as tis(this would suck)

 

[Entadus]

SDN is doing it, It's for Christmas LOL

 

[redpanda]

The droned up anti-woman charges are pretty unnecessary. If I wanted to see that I would head over to TwoXXChromosomes.

Hey, if I wanted to see redpill terminology, I'd head over to redpill too. However, since someone decided to bring it over here, I figured it was worthwhile on calling them out on their casual misogyny (or shall we argue that the term hamstering isn't really misogynistic at all?).

 

[PL198]

hamstering is gender neutral and if you counted up the amount of times I used hamster, it would probably be more frequently used towards men

 

[Sirach38]

there's plenty of time. stop making excuses. the reason students go into bubble mode is its easier to do well in school. well again newsflash kiddies, doing well in medical school isn't the only thing important in life. you have a falsely bleak understanding of private practice numbers. and yes, all of this is happening because medical students only memorize FA. if they understood the business behind things, they would be the ones responsible for the changing economic conditions. yet they don't, so someone else does.

Tis really pathetic how people pull the victim card, with big bad administrators and " some dude with a bachelors telling you how to practice." alright well learn the crap yourself and the dude with a bachelors doesn't have to exist. yet the avg student/doc can't be bothered with doing so, and so there is a need for that guy. medicine is going to increasingly feature market forces. Tis not good enough anymore to just sit there and be like " patient safety, screw money." no, that's stupid. you can sit on the porch and complain about someone who understands money actually running your practice, or you can understand it yourself and be that person. not a difficult choice in my mind.

stop acting like you're 70 years old and adapt to the changing world around you. don't blame others. if you aren't aware of the medical student bubble then either you're in it, or you're in lala land.

Hey man, you sound extremely ignorant and short sighted. Typical second year. Just wait a few more years. By the way, medicine is not going to "increasingly feature market forces" in the future. In fact we are moving towards a single payer system in this country and will likely all eventually become government employees in the future.

 

[jw3600]

Hey, if I wanted to see redpill terminology, I'd head over to redpill too. However, since someone decided to bring it over here, I figured Twas worthwhile on calling them out on their casual misogyny (or shall we argue that the term hamstering isn't really misogynistic at all?).

I don't have a ****ing clue what hamstering is.

 

[PL198]

Hey man, you sound extremely ignorant and short sighted. Typical second year. Just wait a few more years. By the way, medicine is not going to "increasingly feature market forces" in the future. In fact we are moving towards a single payer system in this country and will likely all eventually become government employees in the future.

pulling rank is a horrible way to debate. a resident agreed with the same post you quoted, so that means you just have to wait some more too, see how that works? it gets you nowhere. and by definition, a single payer system means medicine will move more towards market forces since

Again it is irrefutable that if there are two things most med students hate, it is politics and finance. they choose not to follow both and then get upset when they aren't represented well in either area? I guess like someone said in another thread, medical students favorite hobby is bitching, instead of taking matters into their own hands. You can't control any of the things psai mentioned unless you're active in either area, so sitting on your butt saying " the world is too tough, I don't have time" surely isn't going to fix anything

 

[Mad Jack]

The moral of the story is: the current state of primary care is in the toilet. Stay away, far away, unless you've got no debt and can afford to work for yourself or go cash only.

 

[chasm-e-baddoor]

nothing of what I said is based on clinical medicine experience, so that's irrelevant. I don't think Tis a debated fact that many physicians have both poor financial and political awareness. again, these people aren't made magically. if there wasn't a need for one ( IE physicians could also keep money in the back of the minds) then theyd do it themselves. people don't want to hire an additional person unless they have to. I addressed everything you said, have no idea what you're talking about. stop taking the easy way out by playing the victim card w/ big bad administrators and figure out my MDs aren't the administrators..

You have no clue what you're talking about.

It s not that doctors aren't savvy enough to compete. It s that Lawyers, legislators, insurance companies etc run the show and new policies are changing the entire dynamics of how care is given and how reimbursement is issued. And these changes aren't exactly in accordance with what good healthcare is.

 

[Entadus]

You have no clue what you're talking about.

It s not that doctors aren't savvy enough to compete. It s that Lawyers, legislators, insurance companies etc run the show and new policies are changing the entire dynamics of how care is given and how reimbursement is issued. And these changes aren't exactly in accordance with what good healthcare is.

Can you be more specific? Your post really isn't saying anything

 

[Sirach38]

Can you be more specific? Your post really isn't saying anything

It is saying something. It is saying that the problem goes far beyond doctors simply not wanting to learn politics or business. The problem is much more complex and involves a lot of other parties with a HUGE financial interest.

 

[chasm-e-baddoor]

Can you be more specific? Your post really isn't saying anything

Metrics are shifting from whether or not the patient is getting proper care as per evidence based medicine, to things like patient satisfaction, whether or not they are readmitted to a hospital within 30 days( even if the readmission is due to something practically unrelated to first admission)

 

[Baller MD]

Can you be more specific? Your post really isn't saying anything

Eg wall street companies are buying or investing in anesthesia corporate groups.

 

[chasm-e-baddoor]

And anybody thinking that physicians can cause change without doing something drastic like forming a complete union and exerting leverage en mass (never going to happen - physician union might even be banned under antitrust regulations) is living in a bubble

It s almost like saying engineers can make the government stop spending so much money on the military and instead invest in domestic infrastructure. Not happening since one thing lines pockets much better than the other

Physicians don't have the finances or collective bargaining power to do much

 

[Sirach38]

And anybody thinking that physicians can cause change without doing something drastic like forming a complete union and exerting leverage en mass (never going to happen - physician union might even be banned under antitrust regulations) is living in a bubble

It s almost like saying engineers can make the government stop spending so much money on the military and instead invest in domestic infrastructure. Not happening since one thing lines pockets much better than the other

There are some physician unions starting up around the country made up pf employed hospitalists. Once everybody becomes an employee of hospitals and management companies, physician unions will start popping up everywhere. This may be a good thing in a world where all physicians are employees.

 

[Entadus]

Tis saying something. Tis saying that the problem goes far beyond doctors simply not wanting to learn politics or business. The problem is much more complex and involves a lot of other parties with a HUGE financial interest.

Eg wall street companies are buying or investing in anesthesia corporate groups.

And anybody thinking that physicians can cause change without doing something drastic like forming a complete union and exerting leverage en mass (never going to happen - physician union might even be banned under antitrust regulations) is living in a bubble

It s almost like saying engineers can make the government stop spending so much money on the military and instead invest in domestic infrastructure. Not happening since one thing lines pockets much better than the other

Physicians don't have the finances or collective bargaining power to do much

Thanks guys these are good points, but you're forgetting that this thread is about physician burnout and finding happiness in the day-to-day. What you guys are saying doesn't take away from the importance of what @PL198 is saying, i.e. doctors' business decisions (or lack of business/financial savvy) is directly affecting their own lack of satisfaction in practice. It's not necessarily about doing anything drastic, but if your answer is to only study First Aid and wait for the politicians, lawyers, and MBA's to fix our problems, we're going to be waiting for a long time.

 

[PL198]

And anybody thinking that physicians can cause change without doing something drastic like forming a complete union and exerting leverage en mass (never going to happen - physician union might even be banned under antitrust regulations) is living in a bubble

It s almost like saying engineers can make the government stop spending so much money on the military and instead invest in domestic infrastructure. Not happening since one thing lines pockets much better than the other

Physicians don't have the finances or collective bargaining power to do much

yeah just sit on the sidelines and complain

 

[PL198]

see that's the problem that you don't see. all you guys do is complain, without ever saying anything like " hm the following factors are out of my control, so I'm going to do the most that I reasonably can." no thats too hard, so you sit on your couch and complain. damn bachelor degree wielding administrators. damn evil lawyers. poor pure unicorn doctors

 

[Sirach38]

see that's the problem that you don't see. all you guys do is complain, without ever saying anything like " hm the following factors are out of my control, so I'm going to do the most that I reasonably can." no thats too hard, so you sit on your couch and complain. damn bachelor degree wielding administrators. damn evil lawyers. poor pure unicorn doctors

I think most doctors that complain on SDN do it as a form of venting. Most on here are trying to do something to make a change and that includes myself. I am getting involved in my state's legislation and political organizations, supporting local organizations that fight for physician interest, etc. I think you're making an assumption that those that post on SDN to expose what the current healthcare system is like, are just sitting on their ass complaining. When in fact these posts are not meant as just pointless bitching. They are meant to educate other medical students as to what the realities of medicine are away from the nest of academia. Many 1st and 2nd year med students like yourself have absolutely NO CLUE what truly goes on in private practice medicine (I know that I didn't as a first and second year student). It was through reading all the "complaining" and "bitching" on SDN that I realized the broken reality of our healthcare system and through interaction with physicians in the real world in my clinical year, I experiences this reality first hand. Had it not been for all the "bitching" that I read on SDN, I would have never gotten involved politically to fight for physician and patient interests.

 

[jw3600]

see that's the problem that you don't see. all you guys do is complain, without ever saying anything like " hm the following factors are out of my control, so I'm going to do the most that I reasonably can." no thats too hard, so you sit on your couch and complain. damn bachelor degree wielding administrators. damn evil lawyers. poor pure unicorn doctors

I agree with your overall premise but in some regards you're basically telling slaves on a cotton ranch to stop complaining and make some changes. Doctors have been trying. The pockets of groups on the other side are far deeper. What would you suggest one do?

 

[Psai]

see that's the problem that you don't see. all you guys do is complain, without ever saying anything like " hm the following factors are out of my control, so I'm going to do the most that I reasonably can." no thats too hard, so you sit on your couch and complain. damn bachelor degree wielding administrators. damn evil lawyers. poor pure unicorn doctors

No one expects you to understand the realities of actually practicing medicine since you haven't spent any time doing it. You're talking as if you've been through all the training successfully and you have solutions when in reality, you're just a kid who sits in the library all day reading powerpoint slides. You're sitting there smug in your chair thinking that you're the only wise one and the rest of us are just whining for no reason without and knowledge of politics or finance instead of going out and doing things. Sad

 

[DermatoFIGHT]

You will always be burned out as an employee. Pretty soon you will be begging for a job in the worst location with the worst hours like all the pharmacists. They are all employees only and allowed themselves to be ****** to corporations who bought up their independents then systematically destroyed their profession. Now they all stand around crying on message boards and holding cardboard signs.

Don't want to be burned out? Then avoid being an employee at all costs and do all things possible to stop corporate takeovers of medical practices. When you an employee you going to stay late, arrive early, and do everything to meet those metrics to protect your precious ****ty job.

I think physicians need to ask themselves, do you want a career or a job? If you want a career, you better step up and protect yourselves. If you don't protect yourselves and the profession aggressively then you are doing wrong by your patients because their care will suck in the future. People in medicine and pre-meds have notoriously struggled with "the big picture" in life. It is their biggest weakness.

I would gladly give up an entire year salary/income to shut down a corporation if I had to. Would any of you? If not, prepare to be burned out and looking to exit medicine.

 

[Entadus]

You will always be burned out as an employee. Pretty soon you will be begging for a job in the worst location with the worst hours like all the pharmacists. They are all employees only and allowed themselves to be ****** to corporations who bought up their independents then systematically destroyed their profession. Now they all stand around crying on message boards and holding cardboard signs.

Don't want to be burned out? Then avoid being an employee at all costs and do all things possible to stop corporate takeovers of medical practices. When you an employee you going to stay late, arrive early, and do everything to meet those metrics to protect your precious ****ty job.

I think physicians need to ask themselves, do you want a career or a job? If you want a career, you better step up and protect yourselves. If you don't protect yourselves and the profession aggressively then you are doing wrong by your patients because their care will suck in the future. People in medicine and pre-meds have notoriously struggled with "the big picture" in life. Tis their biggest weakness.

I would gladly give up an entire year salary/income to shut down a corporation if I had to. Would any of you? If not, prepare to be burned out and looking to exit medicine.

Hear, hear. I think one of the biggest dangers with seeing medicine as "just a job" (i.e. you are just an employee) is that you give up all your power. Try seeing yourself as a businessman and an advocate in addition to your healer role. Newsflash: it's possible to make friends with lawyers and MBA's. It's possible for a doc to invest in Wall Street. It's possible to involve yourself in local politics as well.

 

[Sirach38]

Hear, hear. I think one of the biggest dangers with seeing medicine as "just a job" (i.e. you are just an employee) is that you give up all your power. Try seeing yourself as a businessman and an advocate in addition to your healer role. Newsflash: Tis possible to make friends with lawyers and MBA's. Tis possible for a doc to invest in Wall Street. Tis possible to involve yourself in local politics as well.

Seeing medicine as "just a job" in relation to all other areas of your life (family, friends, etc.) is not equivalent to seeing yourself as "just an employee". The first is having your priorities straight and finding an appropriate work/life balance. The second is degrading yourself and making yourself nothing more than a money making slave for administrators. The first is keeping a healthy perspective on who you are as a person, the second is not having the right perspective on who you are as a physician. They are perspectives on completely different issues.

 

[Entadus]

Seeing medicine as "just a job" in relation to all other areas of your life (family, friends, etc.) is not equivalent to seeing yourself as "just an employee". The first is having your priorities straight and finding an appropriate work/life balance. The second is degrading yourself and making yourself nothing more than a money making slave for administrators. The first is keeping a healthy perspective on who you are as a person, the second is not having the right perspective on who you are as a physician. They are perspectives on completely different issues.

Good point.

However I might argue that seeing medicine as "just a job" is a fast-track ticket to having the profession hijacked by corporate types. Anyone with "just a job" has a BOSS. How are we supposed to keep work-life balance when we have lost all autonomy?

When most people think of a "JOB" they think, punch-in/punch-out / Homer Simpson-style 'work just hard enough to not get fired'. Not every person with a job takes the Hippocratic oath. Our profession has way more responsibilities than a typical job, one of which is to uphold the profession. There ain't no room for slackers and easy-streeters. Being a physician isn't about getting the minimal work done and getting back to the friends and family ASAP.

 

[Sirach38]

Good point.

However I might argue that seeing medicine as "just a job" is a fast-track ticket to having the profession hijacked by corporate types. Anyone with "just a job" has a BOSS. How are we supposed to keep work-life balance when we have lost all autonomy?

When most people think of a "JOB" they think, punch-in/punch-out / Homer Simpson-style 'work just hard enough to not get fired'. Not every person with a job takes the Hippocratic oath. Our profession has way more responsibilities than a typical job, one of which is to uphold the profession. There ain't no room for slackers and easy-streeters. Being a physician isn't about getting the minimal work done and getting back to the friends and family ASAP.

Great points. Again, these are two different things. One is how you see yourself as a person, the other is how you see yourself withing medicine. You are making assumptions that those that see medicine as just a job can't be amazing at their job and advocate for the profession. They can. But, they will not neglect other areas of their lives to do this.

 

[michaelrack]

x

 

[chasm-e-baddoor]

Good point.

However I might argue that seeing medicine as "just a job" is a fast-track ticket to having the profession hijacked by corporate types. Anyone with "just a job" has a BOSS. How are we supposed to keep work-life balance when we have lost all autonomy?

When most people think of a "JOB" they think, punch-in/punch-out / Homer Simpson-style 'work just hard enough to not get fired'. Not every person with a job takes the Hippocratic oath. Our profession has way more responsibilities than a typical job, one of which is to uphold the profession. There ain't no room for slackers and easy-streeters. Being a physician isn't about getting the minimal work done and getting back to the friends and family ASAP.

practicing physicians, aka former neurotic medical students, who go through years of residency training often riddled in debt and barred from normal social/family life are the last group of people i'd call a bunch of slackers and easy-streeters.

There is nothing detrimental to the physician profession about seeing medicine as "just a job", because, when it comes down to it, a physician can practice as long as he properly completes his job, regardless of anything else.

No - the situation has nothing to do with a bunch of lazy, passionless doctors who need MBAs and JDs to ensure they practice medicine properly. It's more a matter of doctors simply losing ground to bigger wigs.

 

[PL198]

yeah cuz having a basic understanding of finance or politics requires an MBA or JD. lol no. I'm saying the avg physician is literally clueless (hence why websites like white coat investor get so popular so quickly) about these things. keep focusing on just medicine though and get run over. they lost that ground for a reason. examine why.

 

[chasm-e-baddoor]

yeah cuz having a basic understanding of finance or politics requires an MBA or JD. lol no. I'm saying the avg physician is literally clueless (hence why websites like white coat investor get so popular so quickly) about these things. keep focusing on just medicine though and get run over. they lost that ground for a reason. examine why.

The stuff relevant to this topic is not merely "basic understanding of finance or politics"

The average physician is not clueless about these things - in fact physicians have been running private practices just fine for decades, as far as i know.

However, when it comes to things such as healthcare policy (and its relevance to finance) itself, is when JDs become involved. Lawyers run the country and their reach extends even into the practice of medicine itself. Again, we are not merely talking about business models and investment strategies.

Doctors have not lost ground because they just focus on medicine. They lost ground because JDs run the show. To truly affect and work with the law, you need to completely undersand the law.

 

[FutureInternist]

BREAKING NEWS: A nation in shock after a female physician gets married, has kids and then decides she doesn't want to practice full-time

Not to mention the residents that get pregnant then expect everyone to bend over backwards to help them out, cover their shifts etc
Luckily we only had 2 in ours that did that

 

[PL198]

Not to mention the residents that get pregnant then expect everyone to bend over backwards to help them out, cover their shifts etc
Luckily we only had 2 in ours that did that

that's probably the most actually unprofessional thing I've heard