conscientious objection and HPSP

[getfit]

Does anyone know of any Army physicians who are conscientious objectors?
My HPSP packet was returned without action b/c I want to enter the Army as a conscientious objector. I am prior service and searched the regulations and did not find anything clearly stating being an objector would prevent me from being awarded a scholarship. In fact the reg the recruiter tells me they cited only says that being a conscientious objector isn't a way out of the commitment. I am trying to decide if I want to retract the conscientious objector paperwork and resubmit my packet, or just take out the loans. I was genuinely interested in continuing to serve in the Army but as a physician and felt that being a conscientious objector would not hinder my abilities to serve. Any advice?

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[Croooz]

Retract your CO paperwork and try a different service.

 

[Heeed!]

Does anyone know of any Army physicians who are conscientious objectors?
My HPSP packet was returned without action b/c I want to enter the Army as a conscientious objector. I am prior service and searched the regulations and did not find anything clearly stating being an objector would prevent me from being awarded a scholarship. In fact the reg the recruiter tells me they cited only says that being a conscientious objector isn't a way out of the commitment. I am trying to decide if I want to retract the conscientious objector paperwork and resubmit my packet, or just take out the loans. I was genuinely interested in continuing to serve in the Army but as a physician and felt that being a conscientious objector would not hinder my abilities to serve. Any advice?

Why would you want to be in the service if you're a c.o.? I object to lots of things in the military, just not conscientiously. I don't think the military needs "service" so badly they have to take people who object to being there. I'd be interested in hearing your rationale for being a c.o. and wanting to come back in. My advice: take out the loans and remain a civilian.

 

[flighterdoc]

Why would you want to be in the service if you're a c.o.? I object to lots of things in the military, just not conscientiously. I don't think the military needs "service" so badly they have to take people who object to being there. I'd be interested in hearing your rationale for being a c.o. and wanting to come back in. My advice: take out the loans and remain a civilian.

Roger that

 

[notdeadyet]

I'd be curious as to your reasons for wanting to register as a conscientious objector if you are to be a physician.

Do you really worry that you'll be asked to take human life? In spite of the smattering of folks asking if the military will "let them" ("Can I be in a SF unit?", "Am I issued a rifle?", etc.), I would assume that most folks on track to become physicians in the military are not doing so for the sake of fighting. You may be in a position where you have to take lives to save your own life, but I'd be _very_ curious to hear any military physicians on these boards who have actually done so.

If you are a conscientious objector to the extent that you do not want to support the war effort, than HPSP would probably not be appropriate, no? NHSC maybe?

 

[haujun]

Does anyone know of any Army physicians who are conscientious objectors?
My HPSP packet was returned without action b/c I want to enter the Army as a conscientious objector. I am prior service and searched the regulations and did not find anything clearly stating being an objector would prevent me from being awarded a scholarship. In fact the reg the recruiter tells me they cited only says that being a conscientious objector isn't a way out of the commitment. I am trying to decide if I want to retract the conscientious objector paperwork and resubmit my packet, or just take out the loans. I was genuinely interested in continuing to serve in the Army but as a physician and felt that being a conscientious objector would not hinder my abilities to serve. Any advice?

I am surprised that you are a prior service who does not know the answer to this question. I don't know your military occupational specialty (MOS) during your previous service, but you are required to meet the certain physical and moral standards to practice your MOS as a physician in the military. Being conscientious objector will not even make you eligible to become a lowest rank soldier (E-1).

 

[deuist]

Being conscientious objector will not even make you eligible to become a lowest rank soldier (E-1).

What about the army chaplains?

 

[qqq]

What about the army chaplains?

if you are a c.o. stay away from the military. the military exists to kill people, end of. whether you're a lawyer, doctor, or chaplain, you're still in uniform and you are still an officer first. you are still part of a system whose only real aim is to blow things up. do i believe this? do you believe this? it doesn't matter, the people dictating your life in the military believe this. the only way they will not make your life a living hell is if they don't know about your views.

 

[notdeadyet]

if you are a c.o. stay away from the military. the military exists to kill people, end of. whether you're a lawyer, doctor, or chaplain, you're still in uniform and you are still an officer first. you are still part of a system whose only real aim is to blow things up. do i believe this? do you believe this? it doesn't matter, the people dictating your life in the military believe this. the only way they will not make your life a living hell is if they don't know about your views.

It seems to me tha tthe c.o. status was very relevant in the days of a drafted army, but for an all volunteer force, it's a little puzzling.

If you are truly a conscientious objector, I wouldn't think you would want any part of the military. Like q3 says, the military is about war and if you're against it and its use as the spearhead of politics, you _conscientiously_ should want no part of it, including a function such as a physician. Whose ultimate job is to keep the folks who do the war healthy.

 

[Croooz]

What about the army chaplains?

Chaplains carry firearms...as does everyone who wears the uniform.

if you are a c.o. stay away from the military. the military exists to kill people, end of.

This crap about the military's purpose is to "kill people" bothers the hell out of me. As if those of us who have worn and wear the uniform's only purpose is to walk around like automatons killing people. Every action taking by us poor ole dumb shmucks is to take a life? I thought the purpose of the military is to defend borders, allies, ideals, citizens, etc...

This "Kill people" idea is more drivel from genius Rush Limbaugh. Wear the uniform, take a life, save a life, or do both then come back here with your great insight.

 

[notdeadyet]

This crap about the military's purpose is to "kill people" bothers the hell out of me. As if those of us who have worn and wear the uniform's only purpose is to walk around like automatons killing people. Every action taking by us poor ole dumb shmucks is to take a life? I thought the purpose of the military is to defend borders, allies, ideals, citizens, etc...

Agreed, but given the fact that the role of the military is ultimately about being a fighting force, wouldn't you recommend a true conscientious objector not join? I disagree with the fact that the military is only about killing, but it IS the military and I would think that having the luxury of choosing which missions/wars you agree with is outside of your control.

 

[Croooz]

Agreed, but given the fact that the role of the military is ultimately about being a fighting force, wouldn't you recommend a true conscientious objector not join? I disagree with the fact that the military is only about killing, but it IS the military and I would think that having the luxury of choosing which missions/wars you agree with is outside of your control.

A true C.O. wouldn't dream of joining the military...just doesn't make sense. It's akin to a vegetarian PETA working at a slaughter house...just doesn't add up. This is why I didn't bother addressing the co aspect of it.

IMO, Getfit doesn't agree with Bush's war and is objecting to that. In hopes that the next administration will change....as would his/her co status. In the end someone who claims to have served before and then puts in a package to get a military scholarship as a co is nothing but trouble. They're trying for a loophole when they finally have to put on the uniform they can point to their co status and just walk away debt-free and no payback.

"Happy trails to you...."

 

[notdeadyet]

IMO, Getfit doesn't agree with Bush's war and is objecting to that. In hopes that the next administration will change....as would his/her co status.

My understanding, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong here, is that a C.O. is someone who objects to _war_, not _a war_.

 

[AubreyMaturin]

Quoted by fighterdoc, (personal signature):

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice;
moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue"

No offense Fighterdoc, and I am sure that you mean well, but this quote is spoken like a true Palastinian Terrorist or Wahabi extremist. This slogan, in arabic, is probably posted in BinLaden's hideout and Arafat's compound.

Extremism is almost NEVER a good idea, unless your back is against the wall. Extremism is one of the reasons why we must resort to violence in order to secure our interests in the Middle east and uphold national security.

Sorry for the idealogical retoric feal free to PM me for more discussion.

 

[cosmo]

Chaplains carry firearms...as does everyone who wears the uniform.

I don't believe that chaplains carry firearms. They have bodyguards (chaplain's assistants) who carry guns. They are considered non-combatants by the Geneva Conventions.

 

[Croooz]

I don't believe that chaplains carry firearms. They have bodyguards (chaplain's assistants) who carry guns. They are considered non-combatants by the Geneva Conventions.

That's "cute". Corpsman are also noncombatants by the Geneva Convention....now ask what weapons I carried...ask how many corpsman I know who carried.... The easier question would be how many corpsmen did NOT carry? All corpmen I knew carried. Even the objector we had who couldn't get seperated, carried a weapon. It was quite interesting how much he objected to doing any harm till he was shot at, then he got with the 60 gunner

The 4 Chaplains I know carried. Although all they carried were sidearms, 9mm, they did carry. Like I said...everyone carries. There are a few exceptions but not any of the ones listed.

 

[cosmo]

That's "cute". Corpsman are also noncombatants by the Geneva Convention....now ask what weapons I carried...ask how many corpsman I know who carried.... The easier question would be how many corpsmen did NOT carry? All corpmen I knew carried. Even the objector we had who couldn't get seperated, carried a weapon. It was quite interesting how much he objected to doing any harm till he was shot at, then he got with the 60 gunner

The 4 Chaplains I know carried. Although all they carried were sidearms, 9mm, they did carry. Like I said...everyone carries. There are a few exceptions but not any of the ones listed.

Cute or not, the chaplains have bodyguards specifically because they are not permitted to carry weapons. Whether that is adhered to, I don't know, but I knew several chaplain's assistants whose purpose was to accompany them to dangerous situations (domestic violence, deployments, etc.). I know that world situations have changed, but in theory that is the way it is supposed to work.

Anyway, I agree with you. No need to get sarcastic. If you don't want to carry a firearm, don't join the profession of arms. Pretty much a no-brainer.

 

[MoosePilot]

This crap about the military's purpose is to "kill people" bothers the hell out of me. As if those of us who have worn and wear the uniform's only purpose is to walk around like automatons killing people. Every action taking by us poor ole dumb shmucks is to take a life? I thought the purpose of the military is to defend borders, allies, ideals, citizens, etc...

This "Kill people" idea is more drivel from genius Rush Limbaugh. Wear the uniform, take a life, save a life, or do both then come back here with your great insight.

I use that as shorthand myself. It states our purpose generally while hammering home the point that it's a violent profession.

If I was trying to do a bang up job of really defining the job, I'd say we're here to accomplish national objectives through military means (adding military means makes the definition a bit circular, but that's a start). As an officer, I think my job is to "manage violence" (paraphrase from The Soldier and the State I believe is the title).

We kill people and blow **** up. A doc is like maintenance for people. A maintainer makes sure the plane is ready to go, a doc makes sure the pilot (or the maintainer or whoever else) is ready to go. Eventually it all comes down to the mission, which sometimes is something non-violent like Tsunami relief, but is generally blowing **** up and killing people. If you can't take that your ultimate purpose is to facilitate taking lives or threatening to take lives to get what the US wants often at the expense of somebody else, don't do the military thing.