Considering HPSP or FAP (need advice)

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Grey Storm

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2016
Messages
103
Reaction score
69
.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Last edited:
Okay so I'm looking to specialize into EM, critical care, or possibly surgery (may change later on of course). I'm also looking at some pretty big numbers in debt, so I am considering joining the military to pay off ~$250k of debt and of course to gain some structured experience prior to entering the civilian workforce. Can someone check my numbers here?

According to the 2016 physician compensation survey, EM docs make $320k average. Let's round down to 300, -50% in taxes, -20k in malpractice, -40k in living expenses = 90k leftover. 250/90 = 2.7 (round up to 3) years.

If I choose the civilian route, will I actually be able to pay off 100% of my debt in 3-4 years (if I don't marry into debt or have kids)? I feel like I'm missing something in my math here...

I would like to gain a few years of military experience, but do the numbers equal out? Any advice is welcome.

Thanks!


Storm
Take a look at this thread for HPSP finances: https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/the-skyrocketing-value-of-the-hpsp-scholarship.1003915/

Bear in mind that you are unlikely to graduate from residency and walk immediately into 320K. You can certainly get there if you work hard.

Joining the military to pay off debt is a horrible idea. This forum is rife with this discussion. Spend some time reading on this forum and get an idea of what life in the military is like. No amount of money can make up for years spent in a windowless office seeing knee pain after a long run.

Also check out this blog: http://whitecoatinvestor.com/new-to-the-blog-start-here/ If you have 250K in debt, you can pay that off within 5 years of being an attending if you are disciplined.

EM and surgery are both much more competitive in the military than civilian. If your goal is to become a board certified physician, avoid the military.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
so I am considering joining the military to pay off ~$250k of debt and of course to gain some structured experience prior to entering the civilian workforce.

I would like to gain a few years of military experience, but do the numbers equal out?

When you say the bolded things above, do you mean you want some experience practicing medicine in the military? or do you want to experience military things that just happen to be available to medical corps officers?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
The unique experiences will be being pulled out of clinic to go piss in a cup or have a nurse be your boss. Keep reading this forum for what life a as a military doc is like.
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 users
I wanted experience in something outside what I would get in a civilian job - I don't know what that is yet, but I was under the impression that I would gain unique experiences that would both be exciting and improve my abilities as a physician. What's your take?

I think that there's a good chance you've done what a lot of people do, and what a lot of recruiters take advantage of, meaning that you've glamorized military medicine into something it's not.

There's precious little about military that fits your description of being exciting and improving your abilities as a physician. About the most unique thing you could do is deploy, and I think most people would say that won't get you much, if anything, from a (civilian) professional standpoint - but it may be worthwhile nonetheless in terms of a life experience. All told, you are orders of magnitude more likely to get into a situation that is boring and detracts from your abilities as a physician - a situation you will not be able to extricate yourself from as you could in the civilian world.

The financial side of thing can go both ways, but often times you won't know all of those variables until it's too late to change anything, so I don't think anyone considering HPSP can assume that military military medicine will be a net financial positive. A direct accession or FAP candidate may be in a better position to know all of the variables.
 
Sorry but whats FAP? is it like the MCAT discount program?
 
I've just never been up against such giant numbers before. If I was to go into EM, how long do you think it would take to pay it off (total cost of attending is 60-85k/year) if I hammered down to eliminate the debt?
If you live like a resident after residency? 2-3years
 
Read the thread, looks like everyone is advocating for FAP.. I wonder if it's still the same now.
 
$400K in debt ... that's roughly $140-210K in after tax income going to student loans to pay off in 2-3 years. That's a tall order on a new attending's salary.
Then 4 years ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
320k starting attending salary is easily attainable in EM. i get paid similarly and live in a high tax state (9.8%) and pay about 100k in taxes. you can pay off loans in 2-5 yrs depending on how aggressive you are and how cheaply you live.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I'm leaning against HPSP upon further research. Looks like the military often pulls graduates out of residency and makes them do 1-2 years of General Medical Officer (GMO) service, then says that we have to do either however many years left of active duty OR owe additional years of active duty based on the number of years left in residency training after the GMO tour is up - whichever one is HIGHER. So if you went into Gen Surgery (5 year residency), get yanked out after internship year to do 2 year GMO (counts as 2 years of active duty), then go back to do the remaining 4 years of residency, you now owe an additional 4 years of active duty = 6 years active duty total.

Can someone check me on that? That's my understandings and if that's true, frack it.
uhm, i knew there was a catch, but reading this forum has seriously dimnish my interest in the program... Cant believe they wont even let us finish our residency.
 
I'm leaning against HPSP upon further research. Looks like the military often pulls graduates out of residency and makes them do 1-2 years of General Medical Officer (GMO) service, then says that we have to do either however many years left of active duty OR owe additional years of active duty based on the number of years left in residency training after the GMO tour is up - whichever one is HIGHER. So if you went into Gen Surgery (5 year residency), get yanked out after internship year to do 2 year GMO (counts as 2 years of active duty), then go back to do the remaining 4 years of residency, you now owe an additional 4 years of active duty = 6 years active duty total.

Can someone check me on that? That's my understanding and if that's true, frack it.
You have an incorrect understanding. You only go GMO if you fail to match.

But yes, if you do a 6yr residency, you will owe 6 yrs after
 
The other caveat to remember about the fail to match thing is that depending on the service and specialty this may happen to a lot of people or a minority of people. (in the Navy it is a high percentage, in the Army and Air Force it is lower)
 
I was under the impression that if I failed to match military, then I would do the civilian match and do my residency of choosing there. Is this correct?
you can request to do a civilian residency
 
I was under the impression that if I failed to match military, then I would do the civilian match and do my residency of choosing there. Is this correct?
You can request, but the mil is under no obligation to grant. If you are Navy or Army forget about it. They would rather lock you into a GMO tour.

Matching and completing a residency does not mean you avoid admin medicine either. The Army is more than willing to take a subspecialist and put them in an admin position.
 
I'm leaning against HPSP upon further research. Looks like the military often pulls graduates out of residency and makes them do 1-2 years of General Medical Officer (GMO) service, then says that we have to do either however many years left of active duty OR owe additional years of active duty based on the number of years left in residency training after the GMO tour is up - whichever one is HIGHER. So if you went into Gen Surgery (5 year residency), get yanked out after internship year to do 2 year GMO (counts as 2 years of active duty), then go back to do the remaining 4 years of residency, you now owe an additional 4 years of active duty = 6 years active duty total.

Can someone check me on that? That's my understanding and if that's true, frack it.
General surgery is 6 years. You have to do a research year which will add time to your commitment.
 
uhm, i knew there was a catch, but reading this forum has seriously dimnish my interest in the program... Cant believe they wont even let us finish our residency.
If you fail to match out of med school you are facing an uphill battle to go back to residency, unless you want to go into psych, IM, or any of the other specialties that don't traditionally fill.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Okay so the recruiter I spoke to essentially lied to me. I was told that if I don't match in the mil match, I can do the civilian match. So they can say, "Nope.", and pull me into a GMO tour.... how does that affect my ability to secure a match afterwards? Are residency coordinators going to be skeptical of a GMO applicant?
The consensus is that most PDs will look favorably upon a GMO tour, but it's not such a boon that it gets a marginal candidate to MGH. Your best bet is to go straight through. You will have a better chance of that in the civilian world.
 
you should never ever trust a recruiters words without seeing printed official documentation in a contract/policy/law form.

Even the honest ones, which do exist, often don't know medicine well
 
For most recruiters it isn't so much that they are intentionally lying, it is more that they just don't know what they are talking about.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Recruiters mean well, but they do not understand what milmed requires of physicians. They only know what they are taught in their briefing, or what is on the recruiting pamphlets.

You need to seek out active duty or retired doctors for advice, like on this forum.

Usually a medic, or tech, or corpsman senior enlisted are the ones staffing recruiting tables for FAP or HPSP.

One favorite line on the recruiting pamphlets are "practice medicine the way you see fit, don't have to worry about insurance hassles."

Tricare very much an insurance company, as a new military physician will quickly learn.
 
Top