Consistency of PA and NP education!

[lawguil]

Can anybody elaborate on the facade that the NP profession has painted with respect to the consistency of NP education. They like to talk about how every NP has a "masters" degree and PA's have certificates, associates, bachelors, and masters degrees.

What I find interesting is that the content of PA education is standardized and controlled and they have resisted mandating inflated degrees as long as possible, but the NP training is all over the stratosphere. Very few programs seem to resemble each other with respect to content, but they like to sell consistency by saying they are all awarded a masters - which of course was mandated by the nursing organization and is not a reflection of the level of education or standard of education/training. Like I said, it simply serves as a facade! Can anybody shed any light to the situation! I am not a PA - just an educator who advises pre-professional health and nursing students! L.

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[rpkall]

I'm really not much for politics, but I can tell you that when I was shopping around for a midlevel degree, I found the curriculum of PA schools to be far more comprehensive and scientifically-based (pathology, pathophysiology, biochemistry, anatomy, etc, instead of advanced nursing, psychosocial management, etc) than the NP programs I looked at. I'm not saying psychological issues aren't important in the practice of medicine, but for me it was more appealing to have harder science classes in my masters' education.

Additionally, the PA philosophy of always working with physician supervision (in some capacity) and not seeking autonomy is, in my opinion, the most appropriate way for midlevels to operate in this country.

I personally believe all midlevel practitioners should have masters degrees, however--especially new graduates (either PA, NP, midwives, etc, etc).

Not to incite riots or anything; just giving my 2 cents.

 

[lawguil]

I personally believe all midlevel practitioners should have masters degrees, however--especially new graduates (either PA, NP, midwives, etc, etc).

Not to incite riots or anything; just giving my 2 cents.

I guess the question is whether PA/NP is really a master’s level education. If I were to take a hard nosed academic position, both would simply be awarded a certificate of completion once they completed the course of study. In each profession you are learning a trade/profession based on some level of science, not a particular science in and of itself. Despite being true to academia, American colleges/universities are awarding inflated degrees at the mercy of professional organizations. I guess my question is - does anybody really believe that earning a certificate of completion in PA studies is any different than earning a masters degree in a PA program. What I'm trying to say is it doesn't matter what you call it. If you are an individual with the appropriate pre-requisites and has valuable experience as a medic, therapist or whatever and enters into a program that covers the appropriate material needed to train a PA - does it matter what degree is offered. Further, if the program lacks the depth typically seen in a master’s level curriculum, is it ethical to call it a masters program when it is really a broad based education focused on a particular trade for the purpose of producing or providing services? The master’s degree is no better than a certificate program; it’s just that a "masters" degree is perceived as being more educated. This is exactly the case with NP training. They claim to award "masters degrees" to all NP's and talk about how highly educated they are, but seem to forget that it's the content of the coursework that matters.

Objectively, I really question the intentions of the NP's and the organization that represents them. It appears as though they are deliberately manipulating their qualifications and as everybody knows - they are making a very conscious effort to obtain complete autonomy to practice medicine, many claim to be better educated than PA's because all of them hold masters degrees (despite having coursework that offers far less training in medicine and science than the PA education). Shouldn't this be exposed as they claim to be trained under a nursing model, not under the provisions of medicine? NP's more so than PA's should be practicing their trade under the supervision of a physician. Objectively, let me know where I am wrong!

 

[deleted6669]

agree- pa education is the same regardless of degree or certificate offered.
the frequently quoted saying that all np programs give a masters degree are just wrong.there are still, today, certificate granting np programs that can be completed part time in 9 months. these do not require even an adn to enter so a certificate/diploma or associate rn can become a certicicate np with less than 1000 hrs of training.check out the womens health np program at ucla for such a program:
http://www.womenshealthnp.org/home.html
at the other end of the spectrum are the "dnp " programs that still offer less clinical training than a certificate level pa program.
degrees are meaningless. what's important is significant prior clinical experience, solid didactic preparation, and at least a full yr of clinical rotations >2000 hrs in all basic medical disciplines.
are there good and bad pa's and np's out there? sure. are some np's better than some pa's? sure. is the reverse also true? yes.
in my not so humble opinion an excellent rn who goes to a pa program and gets a certificate will be a better provider than if they go to a dnp program.

 

[fab4fan]

Oh, yippee. Another "let's bash the evil NPs" thread.

For every bad NP you can point out, I can match you with horror stories about PAs I have worked with; PAs who got into programs with undergrad degrees in accounting, some who had no prior medical experience whatsoever, yada, yada, yada.

Whatever happened to judging individuals by their abilities? I recall strenuously arguing with an NP here on several forums for making outrageous claims about how her education made her superior to PAs, MDs, etc. But that doesn't mean I am going to sit back and watch everyone pile on NPs in general.

 

[guetzow]

...Just over-reactionary knee jerks who freak when a little objective 'light' is shined on the topic of educational comparison.

 

[fab4fan]

Oh yes, guetzow, you can always be counted on to be the beacon of objectivity.

Your contempt for NPs, and nurses in general, is well documented in here. A brief stroll through your post history says it all.

Opinions from PAs, particularly those who have an anti-NP bias, are hardly the people to look to for "objective" opinions.

 

[guetzow]

Where are you not 'tracking'?

 

[lloydchristmas]

I'm really not much for politics, but I can tell you that when I was shopping around for a midlevel degree, I found the curriculum of PA schools to be far more comprehensive and scientifically-based (pathology, pathophysiology, biochemistry, anatomy, etc, instead of advanced nursing, psychosocial management, etc) than the NP programs I looked at. I'm not saying psychological issues aren't important in the practice of medicine, but for me it was more appealing to have harder science classes in my masters' education.

I too made the same comparison when I was making the decision. I so much wanted medicine (and therefore, PA) but bit my tongue and went NP only because the state law is better for my situation (even though it still sucks either way, it's more autonomous for NPs here).

 

[guetzow]

You should have considered moving, then a specialty with lots of procedure$. I did both...

 

[zenman]

I guess the question is whether PA/NP is really a master’s level education.

Why don't we start at the top and work our way down? There are those who say physicians just have a B.S. and a lot of OJT and that Ph.D. holders are real learned "doctors."

 

[lloydchristmas]

You should have considered moving, then a specialty with lots of procedure$. I did both...

I would've, but the recommendation to go NP actually came from the MD that talked me out of med school 5 years ago that I now work with.

I do like the idea of lots of procedure$$$$.

 

[lawguil]

Why don't we start at the top and work our way down? There are those who say physicians just have a B.S. and a lot of OJT and that Ph.D. holders are real learned "doctors."

Although it's not a popular concept with physicians - I would agree! MD should simply be a certificate program or BS! It's not a doctorate education. There are many undergraduate educations that far exceed the complexity of medicine. I marvel at undergrad students that take 60 credits of hardcore math, engineering students, physics and chemistry majors. Medical school is a lot of material, a lot of learning, but all of the information was created by somebody else. When a medical student is required to do something scholarly that includes extensive research and publication (like the medical science training programs), and then maybe they could justify it to academics. The problem is medical school is designed to be broad and lacks the depth and detail expected from true graduate level study.
The question that I always ask myself is could the information be learned in an undergraduate degree by competitive students? If they answer is YES, then it should be undergraduate coursework. Medical school is an entry level program meaning they will teach you everything you need to know when you get there. You can't say the same thing about a PhD program. Do people without PhD's do scholarly work - you bet and those people would probably be capable of succeeding in a PhD program.

 

[scpod]

Although it's not a popular concept with physicians - I would agree! MD should simply be a certificate program or BS! It's not a doctorate education. There are many undergraduate educations that far exceed the complexity of medicine. I marvel at undergrad students that take 60 credits of hardcore math, engineering students, physics and chemistry majors. Medical school is a lot of material, a lot of learning, but all of the information was created by somebody else. When a medical student is required to do something scholarly that includes extensive research and publication (like the medical science training programs), and then maybe they could justify it to academics. The problem is medical school is designed to be broad and lacks the depth and detail expected from true graduate level study.
The question that I always ask myself is could the information be learned in an undergraduate degree by competitive students? If they answer is YES, then it should be undergraduate coursework. Medical school is an entry level program meaning they will teach you everything you need to know when you get there. You can't say the same thing about a PhD program. Do people without PhD's do scholarly work - you bet and those people would probably be capable of succeeding in a PhD program.

No one puts in the amount of years of learning that a physician does. There's a lot that goes on after medical school. A minimum of 3 years residency and possibly a fellowship. Then more years of practice before you can be again tested for board certification. That is followed by Continuing Medical Education every year just to maintain your licence to practice. They must be studying and learning for their entire lives. A PhD doesn't have to do that. Six or seven years and it's over. In fact, the reason why a PhD spends so much time in school in the first place is that the first four years they fail over and over at their experiments before finally getting it right. That's why 4.0 students don't make good PhD's-- they aren't used to failure.

You're right about medicine being a very broad experience, though, because there's no way that anyone could learn all they need to know. The thing that they do learn in medical school and beyond, however, is where to go to find that information. Because, unlike a PhD, there is no room for failure in medicine. A PhD can kill the organisms in his petri dish over and over by accident, but just one accident by a physician...

About medicine being an entry level program...just because they teach you all about medicine doesn't make it entry level. You need college preparation in order to get there. If you really think a high school graduate could make it through medical school without other preparation, then you are way off base. Medical students have the same prereqs (college degree) as a PhD, so you can't say that med school is really entry level. That's stretching it a bit.

 

[liveandlearn]

scpod.. yer pretty far off here. you need to look into what it takes to get a PhD.

just to correct some of yer statements here. A PhD program required a master's degree in the field you are going to get your PhD in. So, no... the typical enetering MD student cannot get into a PhD program.

Most PhD students are either teachers or therapists, or research as a career. In which case, they do have to continually update their knowledge base... After all where in the HECK do you think the new information the MDs are studying is coming from?

Also, you said it yourself 4 years med school, 3 years residency is equal to 7 years to get a PhD. The only thing past three years for a physician is to learn technical skills, i.e. surgery.. which is no different than learning how to repiar cars. except the cars dont sue you.

"no one puts in the ammount of learning a physician does."
nobody YOU know of does. If you researched a bit and knew quality research doctors (PhD) You'd know that they can generally walk circles around their physician counterparts in the same specialty.

 

[lawguil]

No one puts in the amount of years of learning that a physician does. There's a lot that goes on after medical school. A minimum of 3 years residency and possibly a fellowship. Then more years of practice before you can be again tested for board certification. That is followed by Continuing Medical Education every year just to maintain your licence to practice. They must be studying and learning for their entire lives. A PhD doesn't have to do that. Six or seven years and it's over. In fact, the reason why a PhD spends so much time in school in the first place is that the first four years they fail over and over at their experiments before finally getting it right. That's why 4.0 students don't make good PhD's-- they aren't used to failure.

You're right about medicine being a very broad experience, though, because there's no way that anyone could learn all they need to know. The thing that they do learn in medical school and beyond, however, is where to go to find that information. Because, unlike a PhD, there is no room for failure in medicine. A PhD can kill the organisms in his petri dish over and over by accident, but just one accident by a physician...

About medicine being an entry level program...just because they teach you all about medicine doesn't make it entry level. You need college preparation in order to get there. If you really think a high school graduate could make it through medical school without other preparation, then you are way off base. Medical students have the same prereqs (college degree) as a PhD, so you can't say that med school is really entry level. That's stretching it a bit.

What?

 

[DocNusum]

scpod wrote:

... There's a lot that goes on after medical school...

Yeah there is... BUT... that's AFTER they get the doctorate (MD) for completing 2 bachelors degrees with NO scholarly work involved! This may be why in europe... upon completion of Med School they are given a Bachelors in Medicine

Following your premise...
Anyone should be able to get a BA in art history, music, history, a foreign language, etc... then a BS in psychology and be awarded/called a PsychD... or a BS in engineering and receive a Phd in engineering... or a BSN and just be given a Phd in Nursing... or blah, blah,

Just as most get a BA in art history, music, history, a foreign language, etc... then spend 4 years studying the unrelated art of medicine and is awarded/called a MD!

Residency, fellowship and the rest is OJT... not scholarly/thesis generating work!

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Actually MD and DO are bachelors degrees is North America as well. In order to have a doctorate you must go the PhD/MD route or go back to do a PhD.

 

[DocNusum]

Actually MD and DO are bachelors degrees is North America as well. In order to have a doctorate you must go the PhD/MD route or go back to do a PhD.

So why do they recieve a Medical Doctorate upon completion of Med school before PGY-1...

Also why are they called "Doctor" when they get the sheepskin...

The diplomas don't say Bachelors of Science in Medicine... they say Medical Doctorate!

DocNusum

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

hey

your correct, but the MBBS in UK are also called doctors or physicians in the UK and EU as well but they are bachelors. The term is one used differently than the PhD doctorate. A true doctorate in medicine is the MD/DO with the PhD, else that wouldnt exist as an entrance track (or post degree track).

The reqs. for a Medical Doctorate are not even close to those for the MD/DO PhD or even a regular PhD. Though the hours of internshipa re very long, the didactic is only 2 years long. It dosen't fit the North America definition of a PhD Doctorate.

It is sortof weird. PhD physicians are not even known outside the academic world. In te UK it seems to be more prominant within the profession. Who knows, and it really dosent matter in the end.

 

[scpod]

just to correct some of yer statements here. A PhD program required a master's degree in the field you are going to get your PhD in. So, no... the typical enetering MD student cannot get into a PhD program.

Not true. You don't always have to have a Master's first. This is just one example. There are many, many others, but I won't bore you with a flood of examples.

Most PhD students are either teachers or therapists, or research as a career. In which case, they do have to continually update their knowledge base...

Teachers go to conferences to have a good time. The only time they worry about publishing anything is before the have tenure. Besides, no one will take away there license to be a PhD if they fail to continue studying, but states have a CME requirement in order to maintain a medical license. You don't do it; you don't practice.

The only thing past three years for a physician is to learn technical skills, i.e. surgery.. which is no different than learning how to repiar cars.

You don't even need a high school education to repair cars. So why don't we just teach these car mechanics how to do surgery? Do you really think that would work out well? Would you let one operate on you?

If you researched a bit and knew quality research doctors (PhD) You'd know that they can generally walk circles around their physician counterparts in the same specialty.

I wouldn't let an MD/PhD anywhere near my body with a scalpel or any other instrument. Would you want an MD/PhD putting a chest tube in you? Or digging around in your abdomen trying to find the source of bleeding? Most of them don't know enough about clinical medicine to start CPR when a patient codes. The only circles they would be walking is around the bed to the phone to dial 911. There are great things that PhD's do. Medical science would be far behind without them, but this little game of semantics of who deserves to be called a "doctor" is utterly silly. While Yale may have adopted the PhD as a "research" degree from the Germans in 1860, England and Australia didn't accept it until the 20th century. The title of "doctor" has existed, however, since the 12th century. For 900 years it had little to do with research. So it's really possible that this very short phase of history where the "doctorate" requires a thesis and research may be on its way out. Every year more and more "doctorates" are being awarded and fewer and fewer theses written.

 

[liveandlearn]

your inability to understand an analogy and obvious lack of any clinical experience as is evident by your statement that an MD/PhD does not make a good surgeon makes me think that any further comment would be useless. bye

 

[DocNusum]

scpod...

Are you practicing medicine in ANY capacity...????

PLEASE let me know where... so I know where NOT to get ill...!

DocNusum

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Wow

Lets leave the nasty out of it. MD/DO/PhD or MD/DO the term "Doctor" is truly semantics.
In anycase, becomming a physician and becomming a PhD are difficult roads. However, my feeling is that becomming an MD/DO/PhD is certainly the hardest. If clinical skills get rusty (such as chest tubes) so what? Let me assure you, these are all monkey skills easily taught or re-taught (I teach them now). The essence of medicine, from my perspective, is the level of knowledge it demands, requires and continues to require for the lifetime of practice. Knowing Why is always more important than HOW or What.

Have a good one!

 

[lloydchristmas]

Knowing Why is always more important than HOW or What.

Thank you, Mike, for finally posting some wisdom on a board littered with BS.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

lloyd

hehe, well, i have guilty for creating drama in the past and as with everything, we learn from our mistakes

 

[ButlerPharm.D.]

Each of you is correct in some facet of what you have said. A Ph.D. is a graduate degree where as an M.D. is a professional degree.

 

[guetzow]

Our pharmacology classes were taught by a Pharm D.

 

[oldManDO2009]

Not true. You don't always have to have a Master's first. This is just one example. There are many, many others, but I won't bore you with a flood of examples.


This program only requires 83 credit hours for a PhD where as I will have completed twice that by the time I earn my Doctorate of Osteopathic Medicine. By the way, my college confers doctorates not Bachelor of Science for osteopathic medicine. Nice try, make it appear that medical school is no more difficult than obtaining a under graduate degree and should be at the same level. Wake up - a four year BS does in no way compare to GRADUATE level medical education.

The Masters digress I earned in 95 does not even compare. Now I am sure there are some seriously difficult PhD programs out there but to compare a therapist or teacher to this level of education is absurd. A masters or doctorate in education or therapy pales to PA, PharmD, and MD/DO educational curriculum....

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Not true. You don't always have to have a Master's first. This is just one example. There are many, many others, but I won't bore you with a flood of examples.


This program only requires 83 credit hours for a PhD where as I will have completed twice that by the time I earn my Doctorate of Osteopathic Medicine. By the way, my college confers doctorates not Bachelor of Science for osteopathic medicine. Nice try, make it appear that medical school is no more difficult than obtaining a under graduate degree and should be at the same level. Wake up - a four year BS does in no way compare to GRADUATE level medical education.

The Masters digress I earned in 95 does not even compare. Now I am sure there are some seriously difficult PhD programs out there but to compare a therapist or teacher to this level of education is absurd. A masters or doctorate in education or therapy pales to PA, PharmD, and MD/DO educational curriculum....

oldman

EDITED BY MIKE BASED ON RESEARCH

While we agree on most things, a PhD and a whole 24 months to be a PA do NOT compare. You can have a degree in basket weaving (including pre reqs) with volunteer experience as a candy striper and be eligible for PA school which is 24 months. PhD's are considerablly harder.

What I am confused about is the USA MD/DO. How can you be a PhD if you can still take a PhD after becomming a physician? That makes no sense at all. Moreover, if MD/DO conferred a "doctorate" which is a term conferred to PhD's then what are all these poor saps taking the MD/PhD doing?

As it turns out, there are 2 types of Doctorates. 1) Professional Doctorates such as MD or JD and research Doctorates such as PhD's! Who Knew?

This was confirmed today when i finally called 2 local admissions offices and asked the difference.

They were correct since i asked what the difference was between a MD/PhD and a PhD or MD. They stated they were seperate things. Doctor of Medicine and Doctorate as well as Doctor of medicine. That was complicated.

here is some info in regards to the temr "doctorate"

Terminal/professional doctoral degrees such as the M.D. and J.D. do not require completion of a thesis/dissertation or publication of a coherent body of literature. The minimum term for a terminal (professional) degree is 3 years past secondary education, the same minimum term required for a research doctorate. Terminal/professional doctoral degrees are not research doctorates, yet they do entitle their holders to pursue academic careers on a par with holders of academic degrees. Actual practice (and legal recognition) within the field requires that the degree holder become licenced by the appropriate body (an organization not affiliated with the schools granting the degrees) and registration can require a certain amount of work experience. The titles from the first-professional doctoral degrees are not equivalent to the same title conferred in other countries. For example, outside the United States (and countries that mimic the North American medical educational system), the title of M.D.or D.M. may be only conferred as a research or a higher doctorate. This M.D or D.M. is in recognition of clinical or preclinical academic research many years after the original (professional or first) degree in medicine or veterinary medicine.

 

[oldManDO2009]

alright mike your right the PA comparison was over the top

 

[oldManDO2009]

mike

I get that a MD/DO does not require a thesis (my masters degree did) but lawguil tries to imply that a MD/DO is nothing better than a BS...I can compare both and they are not the same! So lawguil do some research before you make such wide ranging comparisons

I expected zenman to immediately bash docs but I am not sure where lawguil is coming from....

edit - I think the definition is spot on.....

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Hehhe

Make sure u re-read my post above cause i edited it. Everyone was sortof right except me What a weird thing the Doctor of Medicine vs PhD is. Who Knew?

alright mike your right the PA comparison was over the top

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Yes your right.

I agree that an MD/DO is probably harder than the average PhD and certainly not a "bachelors" in the traditional sense. It is interesting that in the UK they actually do call it a Bachelors of Medicine and an MD is only conferred on people who basically go back and get the PhD. Very different.

mike

I get that a MD/DO does not require a thesis (my masters degree did) but lawguil tries to imply that a MD/DO is nothing better than a BS...I can compare both and they are not the same! So lawguil do some research before you make such wide ranging comparisons

I expected zenman to immediately bash docs but I am not sure where lawguil is coming from....

edit - I think the definition is spot on.....

 

[oldManDO2009]

The MD/PhD DO/PhD is for those people who want to be real scientist (or at least medical scientist)...I would not be qualified to work in a lab w/o the DO/PhD and it is an extra year of study so school ends up being 5 years. If I was not so ancient I would definitely do the DO/PhD - I really like the genetics part of medicine....

 

[oldManDO2009]

That UK thing is strange because I am not sure what the overall educational commitment is - 5 years of college and a residency total compared to a minimum of 7 for a US trained physician?

In some parts of the third world a "doctor" obtains 2 years of classes and the rest is on the job training.....I have to say - our medical educational system produces some of the best healthcare professionals in the world.

 

[zenman]

I expected zenman to immediately bash docs but I am not sure where lawguil is coming from....

My comment, "There are those who say physicians just have a B.S. and a lot of OJT and that Ph.D. holders are real learned "doctors" was in no way bashing anyone as it was not me who said it...I heard it from someone else. Any bashing I do can be backed up with facts.

 

[zenman]

I have to say - our medical educational system produces some of the best healthcare professionals in the world.

Now we just need to figure out why our healthcare system is not #1 in the world in spite of the best education and amount of money spent and health status of the people, etc., etc..

 

[DocNusum]

In some parts of the third world a "doctor" obtains 2 years of classes and the rest is on the job training.....

Ummmm...!

You have just described OUR system of educating "doctors"...!!!

MS-1... Hard sciences
MS-2... 1/2 hard sciences... clinical
MS-3... 1/3 hard sciences... clinical
MS-4... Clinical
Now you are conferred the "Doctorate" degree... MD/DO.
IMNSHO... this is in reality a bachelors degree in medicine (this is NOT a "natural" continuation of undergrad studies! Very little if any research is involved)

Then comes:
PGY-1/internship... Clinical/OJT
PGY-2, 3/Residency... Clinical/OJT
Fellowship... Clinical/OJT... for however many years!
(some programs include research in the PGY phase which then justifies the "doctorate")

OTOH... Some programs do:
1 year hard sciences classes
1 year clinical
1 year research (doctorate research!)
1 year clinical...
Bam!!!... MD degree... now you got a "doctorate" in medicine.

Btw... it's NOT the years... it's the level of work completed!!!!!
For example...
If a person took:
4 years for a BS degree
1 year for a Paramedic degree (+5 years experience as a medic)
1 year for RN degree (then 5 years experience as a CCRN)
1 year "renewing" pre-reqs (science classes > 7 years old)
2 years in PA or NP school learning to practice medicine.

Based upon the "years" premise... this person should recieve a "doctorate"!!!
But this is NOT how our system works!

As it stands...

The med student has a bachelors degree in art history, foreign language, american history, music...etc. Then takes 1.5 years of science, plus 2.5 years of OJT and is awarded a "doctorate" degree... and is then called "doctor"...

Just thoughts!

DocNusum

 

[oldManDO2009]

Ummmm...!

You have just described OUR system of educating "doctors"...!!!

MS-1... Hard sciences
MS-2... 1/2 hard sciences... clinical
MS-3... 1/3 hard sciences... clinical
MS-4... Clinical
Now you are conferred the "Doctorate" degree... MD/DO.
IMNSHO... this is in reality a bachelors degree in medicine (this is NOT a "natural" continuation of undergrad studies! Very little if any research is involved)

Wrong! MS 1 & 2 hard core science - MS 3 & 4 clinical with end of rotation exams so you have to demonstrate knowledge along with national exams

You apparently do not understand the difference between a 300 & 400 series course and 500 series and above! My graduate degree required a thesis and 2 years of graduate level courses - in your estimation that should just be an associate degree.

Get over it. Doctors complete graduate level education and earn a doctorate degree. They do not earn a PhD (see Mike's post above if you are confused) and there is a difference between a MD/DO and a PhD. I do not see many PhD in the ER treating trauma so your assertion that doctors of medicine do not have some specialized skill and are able to demonstrate that skill is plain delusional. A PhD works in specialized environments and was trained for those environments just like a doctor and both completed graduate level courses.

OTOH... Some programs do:
1 year hard sciences classes
1 year clinical
1 year research (doctorate research!)
1 year clinical...
Bam!!!... MD degree... now you got a "doctorate" in medicine.

What program would that be? Most MD/PhD and DO/PhD programs are 5 years minimum so where is your BAM?????

I am not sure where you got your doctorate DocNusum but mine includes graduate level work - just an FYI!!!!

 

[oldManDO2009]

.

 

[DocNusum]

WTf...

That was sure enlightening!
considering it came from a future "doctor"...

DocNusum

 

[DocNusum]

Get over it. Doctors complete graduate level education and earn a doctorate degree. They do not earn a PhD (see Mike's post above if you are confused) and there is a difference between a MD/DO and a PhD. I do not see many PhD in the ER treating trauma so your assertion that doctors of medicine do not have some specialized skill and are able to demonstrate that skill is plain delusional. A PhD works in specialized environments and was trained for those environments just like a doctor and both completed graduate level courses.

Dude...

You are a student...

Please stop the HYPER-INFLATION!!!!

I never stated that MDs/DOs don't possess a skill set unique to the practice of medicine!

My point was... the schooling IS NOT a traditional "doctorate" education... it is Mostly OJT! Biochem, Genetics, Pathophys, and Clinical Med are all classes offered outside of a Medical school matriculation... and NOT ONLY MDs/DOs practice medicine!!!!!!!

Based upon your own assertion... since NPs and PAs are "in the ER treating trauma"... and PAs, NPs, EMTs and RTs "have some specialized skill and are able to demonstrate that skill"... then they should be "Given" a "doctorate" for "having some specialized skill and are able to demonstrate that skill"...

Also...

You apparently do not understand the difference between a 300 & 400 series course and 500 series and above!

The number assigned to a course... means nothing!
(except to the bursar... when they collect tuition$$$$!!!!)

My graduate degree required a thesis and 2 years of graduate level courses

I am familiar with the english 102 ROL style papers that are written for a graduate degree! They are just longer and 2-6 students add their names as co-authors. That is part of the reason why 40-58% of ALL "research" papers/studies are garbage!!!!!!

Dude... bedazzle someone else... I'm AWARE of how it really works!!!!

I'm generally surrounded by MDs/DOs 18+ hrs/day... 2 just left my house 20min ago... we talk freely about "degree inflation" and the education of medical providers.

DocNusum
“Doc" is the name called in the middle of the night when the tracers are hot and you catch one...
"Doc" is the name called in the middle of the night when the chute malfunctions, or you do a bogus PLF....
"Doc" is the name called when the "jimmy" don't look/feel quite right...
"Doc" is the title "Given" to the person you want standing right next to you should any of the above occur...

"Doc" in Nusum was Given... earned!
18 years "takin care of People"

 

[zenman]

That is part of the reason why 40-58% of ALL "research" papers/studies are garbage!!!!!!

Dude... bedazzle someone else... I'm AWARE of how it really works!!!!

Thank goodness there are a few of us who know whats going on!!!
And I'll say it again...even double blind studies are hardly worth the time and expense.

 

[oldManDO2009]

My point was... the schooling IS NOT a traditional "doctorate" education... it is Mostly OJT! Biochem, Genetics, Pathophys, and Clinical Med are all classes offered outside of a Medical school matriculation... and NOT ONLY MDs/DOs practice medicine!!!!!!!

what do you think a PhD is - all those hours in the lab learning how to complete experiments, record data, use the equipment - sounds like OJT.

Based upon your own assertion... since NPs and PAs are "in the ER treating trauma"... and PAs, NPs, EMTs and RTs "have some specialized skill and are able to demonstrate that skill"... then they should be "Given" a "doctorate" for "having some specialized skill and are able to demonstrate that skill"...

Pointless argument its not just the skill its the overall training.


I am familiar with the english 102 ROL style papers that are written for a graduate degree! They are just longer and 2-6 students add their names as co-authors. That is part of the reason why 40-58% of ALL "research" papers/studies are garbage!!!!!!

I agree


edit - did not want to forget you zenman - don't worry you don't know what is going on. You still have not convinced me your ideas of alternative therapy verses real medicine is even plausible.

 

[lawguil]

oldman


As it turns out, there are 2 types of Doctorates. 1) Professional Doctorates such as MD or JD and research Doctorates such as PhD's! Who Knew?

This was confirmed today when i finally called 2 local admissions offices and asked the difference.


Terminal/professional doctoral degrees such as the M.D. and J.D. do not require completion of a thesis/dissertation or publication of a coherent body of literature. The minimum term for a terminal (professional) degree is 3 years past secondary education, the same minimum term required for a research doctorate. Terminal/professional doctoral degrees are not research doctorates, yet they do entitle their holders to pursue academic careers on a par with holders of academic degrees. Actual practice (and legal recognition) within the field requires that the degree holder become licenced by the appropriate body (an organization not affiliated with the schools granting the degrees) and registration can require a certain amount of work experience. The titles from the first-professional doctoral degrees are not equivalent to the same title conferred in other countries. For example, outside the United States (and countries that mimic the North American medical educational system), the title of M.D.or D.M. may be only conferred as a research or a higher doctorate. This M.D or D.M. is in recognition of clinical or preclinical academic research many years after the original (professional or first) degree in medicine or veterinary medicine.

First - I suspect you are a student of some sort if you actually had to call an admissions department to learn the difference between a clinical/professional "doctorate" and an academic doctorate. The clinical doctorates were created in large part by professional organizations who have mandated the degree as a means of earning respect, clout, lobbying/political leverage, autonomy....) Can medical school be successfully taught at the undergraduate level - YES - because it is indeed an entry-level degree. Medical school is difficult and intense but intensity and difficulty doesn't mean it’s a doctorate level education. Medical school doesn't even compare to the complexity of an undergraduate mathematics or engineering degree (engineering is also an entry level degree, but offered at the bachelors level as it should be) Academic degrees PhD/MA curriculums are/were created by academics. They aren't based on the sciences, they are the science and these programs prepare students to produce original knowledge and enter into the world of academia.

Second - do you really believe that the admissions departments understand the politics of education? They know what they award and the difference between degrees. They are the ones at college fairs, visiting high schools and sending out material to market and sell the degree's they offer!

"Terminal/professional doctoral degrees are not research doctorates, yet they do entitle their holders to pursue academic careers on a par with holders of academic degrees."

No they don't! About the only place they are qualified to teach is at a medical school or like environment. Basically adjunct level faculty! Physicians or others with clinical doctorates aren't known for producing quality research. Further, they aren't known for being experts even in their specific discipline when compared to a PhD in that same discipline.

I just reviewed about 3 dozen recommendations I have recently written for students to medical school. Their are two - maybe three if I became a little more familiar with another student, that I would write a recommendation for to a PhD program. I wouldn't put my name or reputation on the line for the rest of the students.

 

[oldManDO2009]

Having worked with and taught by many PhDs you put way to much stock in your assertion that PhD are the mana of science. Like every thing else - there is the good, the bad and the ugly. Physicians participate in research - have you heard of clinical trials? And they use their "expertise" to evaluate efficacy of the drug or treatment.

Your arguments are baseless - the majority of physicians are not researchers and their earned doctorate level educations allow them to work within their specialty. The same can be said for PhDs - many are working in academia and not producing cutting edge science but regurgitating the periodic table.

Your recommendations may be skewed since you seem to think slackers are okay for medicine but not to earn that coveted PhD.

Well, off to school to join the rest of my slacker classmates. Maybe today we will learn how to add and subtract

 

[scpod]

Medical school is difficult and intense but intensity and difficulty doesn't mean it’s a doctorate level education. Medical school doesn't even compare to the complexity of an undergraduate mathematics or engineering degree

Absolutely ridiculous to even compare an undergraduate degree in mathematics or engineering with medical school. Perhaps you believe that way because the subjects were difficult for you, but that's not the case with everyone. Every day I have the priveledge of instructing some of those fine mathematics and engineering majors in the art of writing, and there are quite a few who have trouble composing complete sentences. They might have the scientific knowlege, but few of them have the skill to put a comprehensible version of it on paper.

 

[lawguil]

Absolutely ridiculous to even compare an undergraduate degree in mathematics or engineering with medical school. Perhaps you believe that way because the subjects were difficult for you, but that's not the case with everyone. Every day I have the priveledge of instructing some of those fine mathematics and engineering majors in the art of writing, and there are quite a few who have trouble composing complete sentences. They might have the scientific knowlege, but few of them have the skill to put a comprehensible version of it on paper.

Further, I would include undergraduate English, physics and chem. as degrees that cover more intellectually demanding material than anything in medical school (yes - at the undergraduate level.) Medical school IS quite simply a certificate type degree. Do you really believe that average people can't learn the material taught in medical school as though it were rocket science? I'm not saying it's easy as the volume of material covered in medical school is a lot and very broad, but not very complex. It's common to see pre-med students that are struggling with calculus, physics and chemistry. Some think they are doing something fantastic when they get an A or B in what are fluff courses for math and science majors. When you have joined the ranks of those who succeeded in courses like numerical and abstract analysis, abstract algebra, differential equations, Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometries, calc. II, III, & classic physics and the like, then tell me about your medical school endeavors. I know many who find it difficult to appreciate that they have been duped simply because they have never had the intellectual capacity to question the merits of our current educational system; which is privatized and subject to accreditation from different professional organizations that control what degree is awarded. Education is big business. All potential students have easy access to money from the government - currently, degrees are especially appealing to students and employers - inflated degrees sell well. How proud parents are when their child earns a clinical “doctorate”...It's so maniacal!

I respect the intensity of medical school, but it doesn’t change what it is. The fact that will never change is that medical school is an entry level degree and the material can be covered in a bachelor’s degree – as medical school clearly demonstrates! Not all bachelors’ degrees are equal in difficulty or intensity. If you are among the many who believe that this qualifies it as a “professional doctorate”, then so be it. You and many like minded individuals have succeeded, but you haven’t learned to the depth and complexity that is expected in genuine doctorate level education.

 

[oldManDO2009]

I respect the intensity of medical school, but it doesn’t change what it is. The fact that will never change is that medical school is an entry level degree and the material can be covered in a bachelor’s degree – as medical school clearly demonstrates! Not all bachelors’ degrees are equal in difficulty or intensity. If you are among the many who believe that this qualifies it as a “professional doctorate”, then so be it. You and many like minded individuals have succeeded, but you haven’t learned to the depth and complexity that is expected in genuine doctorate level education.[/QUOTE]

I think your assumption is ridiculous. Medical school is not a certificate program, vocational trade school or any other entry level degree. What basis do you make theses assertions on? Have you reviewed each course offered and can compare say molecular medicine 625 for example to an undergraduate course – did you audit these courses? If you are advising students as to what future career they may be interested in - I feel sorry for those students. You obviously have some negative view or experience with medical education and are probably ill advising your students.

It is incomprehensible and lacks common sense to compare medical school with undergraduate work. It could go with out saying that there may be courses in a masters program that may be similar to an undergraduate course but that does not make them equal. The ENTIRE purpose of graduate level education is to specialize in some field. The purpose of undergraduate work in most cases is to prepare you for the work load and rigors of graduate work. Have you attended graduate school? You seem confused as to its purpose.

It does not take a giant intellect to flip through a couple of catalogs and declare the course work equal and medical school nothing more than waste of intellectual effort - since they are not real "doctors".

Your idea that the average medical student is less qualified then a PhD student seems misguided - I go to school with some very smart kids and I am often impressed with their abilities. So I don't know where your example comes from but I don't go to school with any of them.