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continuing undergraduate medical study in Germany.

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boodymarei

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hello , I'm an egyptian medical student , already passed 3 years of my undergraduate medical study , and I'll finish the 4th year by next july (in Egypt) and in English.
and I was wondering about the possibility of continuing my undergraduate study in germany insted .. I ve done lots of research about this for months, and contacted the DAAD and the uni-assist , and almost got all the info I need , but still I need some more info from experienced individuals ...

I contacted more than 1 univ. and I was told to send the all 4 years curriculm to the (Landesprufungsamt ) in dasseldorf so they decide if there is any courses I ve to retake!.

well my question is really about this , (how hard is it to satisfy the med. schools in germany) ''specially heidlberg''??

my curriculum is very good , but I studied all the courses in english , so , is that a bad point?

also , I do study German language , but by self leraning and private tutoring , since I ve no time to go to goethe institue ..
Is that acceptable?
and also how hard is it to get the test daf lvl 4? knowing that I finished A1 in 9 days from zero knowlege.

the last question would be ... If entered the Test Daf exam or DSH exam in next september .... Can I start this winter semster ? Or I ve to wait for the summer semster?

those are the courses I finished , or almost finished..
Physiology. Anatomy.Histology.Biochemistry.Pharmacology.Micro bacteriology.
Virology.Immunology.Parasitology.Pathology.

Ongoing Courses:-
  • Ophthalmology.
  • ENT (Ear, Nose and Throat).
  • Forensic Medicine.
  • Toxicology.
  • Community Medicine.
Thanks In Advance.
 
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lacrimale

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hi! what about General Surgery and Neurology?
 

boodymarei

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No , not yet , In here Neurology in 5th year , and General surgery in 6th year , and I'm still in 4th year.
 

lacrimale

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No
General Surgery is first past of all Surgery, like bringing in subject. Understand? After it - will be next courses like Hospital Surgery and e.t.c
And Neurology in my Medical School in 4th year
What book do you prefer for Toxicology?
 

boodymarei

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actually I'm using a book written by our toxo dept. and its a local edition , so I guess it wont be any useful to u , sry.


about my questions . can u help?

and did any 1 know about the (Landesprufungsamt ) in dasseldorf ... their web site says I should be accepted at a univ. first , while all the universties say That I should get a curriculum evaluation from the Landesprufungsamt first in order to apply for advanced position (not a freshman)

thx In advance.
 

lacrimale

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Whats questions?
first: about language? do you speak German or understand? in Germany we study all courses on German, not English. Now I have course of Medical English like elective. But if you speak on German though on G4 (Aufbau 2) but better - G5 (Fortgeschrittene 1) and G6 of cource. In my opinion G4 is enough in the beginnig
second: you can start from any semestr
sorry for my english mistakes, i have been studying only 2 months ;)
 

boodymarei

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my main 2 questions are....

1-all the courses I studied were in english .. does that affect the Landesprufungsamt judgment?? or they are interested mainly in the course not the language?

2- I'll start a very (agressive ) german course in july 15th . is it possible to reach advanced level to pass the DSH exam in spetmber?
(I finished the goethe A1 level in only 9 days)

Thx again.
 

slight365

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Finishing A1 in 9 days is absolutely nothing. Many schools don't even place students into A1/1 due to the fact that many students are already familiar with German and that's what A1 is. A2/2 is where it starts getting interesting, and B is where you stop being so cocky and optimistic.

Germany does not care about your English, for anything else other than if you can't communicate with the office people, they can communicate in English.

I also just recently posted that you need several hundred hours to get to the B2/Mittelstufe II, which is the level you need to even get somewhat evaluated of your progress. Then you need several hundred more to go from there to C1-c2.

You also need a top score in the DaF, or the DSH. The other factor is just because you can do exercises that are in workbooks, that does not mean you'll be able to make either the mittelstufe exam or the DaF or DSH. They are extremely technical for non-native speakers, and extremely difficult for even native speakers of German. We're talking 1,000 hours of instruction they recommend to be able to sit and get a reasonable score on the DaF.

Langenscheidt has some Vorbereitungs books. Unless you can understand anything there, you're not going to make it. 3 months is simply impossible to get basically an A on either exam, and then from there, you must be able to understand the lectures or that was all for nothing if you can't. The counselors know this and will likely work against you because they know you won't last in the school, and essentially, you will be taking someone else's spot.

Additionally, look into what your application deadlines are. They are generally in the early part of the summer (when you're looking to START), and then the semester opening is in October/late September. It won't matter how aggressive your German instruction is. You don't have that much time to be able to absorb the minutia and the various rules and exception, let alone the vocabulary, articles, and then the fixed expressions, and then take an exam that's several hours long and barely make any mistakes (formatting is different depending on the DaF or DSH and the latter is school-dependent).

You're facing an uphill battle, and these "Aggressive" German courses tend to not prepare you enough because they are basically teaching and skimming over a concept, then going to the next, so you don't really have time. The closest you can come to something legit is from the Goethe Institute, which is in their Intensive 8 courses, but they will run a bit slow. There is a huge amount of work, but they thoroughly put you through whatever levels you choose (I did A2/2 and B1/1 and then skipped to a 1 month b2/1). They teach on a high level, so that B1/1 actually encompassed what I got in B2, though not as in-depth.

Some universities offer preparatory classes, and some offer advanced ones requiring you to have reached the mittelstufe level before you can go into them as a Uni student.

My advice is to take a year to learn in Germany. If you want to learn medicine, they are only going to take people that specifically show they are receptive and expressive in German. They also know many schools just basically register you for language courses and pass you, whether you know German or not, whether you attended, or not. Goethe at least gives you a test at the end to certify you at least learned something. Anyone can walk in and out of these short classes, but they will not prep you. They are only based on the urgent want of people wanting to get to a certain level fast, not on learning quality, and in that spirit, you will not be prepared for the Oberstufe if you're going to try and go from the grundstufe direct in 1/4 the time it takes to realistically get there to get a medical-worthy score on the DaF or DSH.
 
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boodymarei

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thx mate for this real useful reply , It helped alot , and I decided to wait till the next summer semster , that will buy me few extra months , and It should be enough ,,

Goethe intensive courses last for 18 months!! and thats looooooooooooong time!!

what about the curriculum evaluation process , do u ve any info about this?

Thx again.
 

slight365

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You don't need to take all of the Goethe courses. If you have a certificate in A1.1, you don't need to start there. Goethe doesn't really care about what you had in the past. They will give you a test that's actually very hard, and then based on the score, they will place you. This is how I skipped from A1.2 (my first course at another school elsewhere in Germany) to (Intensive 8) A2.2 at Goethe. I just did lots of studying in a 6 week period I had off. Then I took (I8) B1.1. I then moved to a 4 week B2.1/Mittelstufe II course at another school, which essentially was a review of my B1.1 Goethe class, but it was necessary to get the certificate that I was in the Mittelstufe II level. In total, this was only six months over a period of 9 months or so. You need to get yourself to at least Mittelstufe to be anywhere close and in that case, you still won't pass the DAF or DSH because you're still some 3-500 hours away from being prepared for those tests because they are C1/C2. However, schools with preparatory classes may allow students who reached B2 to go into the Vorbereitungskurs, should they offer it.

The problem with German is that you can certainly rush it, but then it will show. On the exams, they use lots of fixed expressions that don't mean their literal translation. You may be able to translate literally, and it will be correct. However, it will be a wrong answer or change how a paragraph or story is interpreted. The only way to know them is to spend time actively using the language and reading books and newspapers. I had several of these on my Mittelstufe exam.

Curriculum evaluation is a bit more difficult. I had my US college manual to back up my course descriptions, BUT it must be translated to German, so you might have to find someone who will translate, pay them, and then also have it certified.

I brought over as many exams as I possibly could find, especially in the sciences, and mathematics. Some courses didn't allow us to keep the exams, but in that case, I had the syllabi, at the least. The Auslandamt for whichever school you want to apply to can help a bit better. I had the option of applying directly to my school, but some may not offer that. You have to check.

Basically, show some proof of the course content. I had my school manual as a hard copy, and also in the translations, I added links from the school's website, since they went all electronic.

It's better to have more proof than less and already be overseas.
 

boodymarei

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so , according to you , Hard 6 months will be enough , but it will be dedicated 6 months , thats good news , I'll pass a semster in here , to prepare my self to the summer semster in Germany

about the evaluation , I didnt mean high scool and pre med. studies , I meant I actually spent 4 yrs studying human medicine in here , I dont wanna waste that , and start over ,
I already sent a copy of my curriculum , in english and translated and authenticated german copy also to the Landesprufungsamt in dusseldrof ,

but the Landesprufungsamt website said I must be accepted first to apply for evaluation , while all the universities said I must be evaluated first to get accepted , that was pretty complicaed situation , specially that the Landesprufungsamt got no email add. and they never answer there phone , so , there was no way to ask them!!
 

slight365

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No, I said only to get to the mittelstufe I spent six months, and that was bouncing schools because every time I did, they skipped me a level or two. Had I stayed in Goethe, they would have put me next in B1.2, then B2.1, then B2.2, and that's six months right there I didn't have. There's also the B Niveaustufe that blends B1 and B2 together, but it's not a total replacement, especially with the amount of work one gets. In the B levels, in an increasing fashion, more of the work becomes writing assignments, and NOTHING replaces that and this is something greatly lost by skipping and condensing, and this is what they want on the exams.

So one must get to the C level and all that above is only to get to C level. There is some 3-500 hours of instruction left to go, and they highly advise it to be class instruction, which they are right on. I tried it myself, and others did too. While I was familiar with stuff, an instructor points out the mistakes. Believe me, it's absolutely horrendous to get those last 10-15 points. The language exam score you require is the highest possible, something like a 75 DAF and a 82 DSH (school dependent), plus there's always the right is reserved to not accept you on a subjective basis.

Put one way: The DSH and DAF are hard enough that good students that are native German speakers can't pass with a medical-level grade without significant studying. I've seen this myself on Germans who have tried to see how they can do.

Dedicating yourself to doing it is fine and probably doable. It also becomes a quantity vs. quality thing here. You can be familiar with the stuff, but not know how to execute it well, and in some places, that can work against you. You need the combo of quality and quantity in your language education.

Yep, the German bureaucracy is wonderful. You basically have to come to the country to get anything done and even then it's difficult. I don't know how to solve your particular problem. Maybe you should try to get in touch with the DAAD?
 

boodymarei

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well , They were no help , cuz in here they deal only with postgraduates , so I sent teh papers any way , It worth the shot!

this is going bad , the embassy wont give me a visa unless I passed testdaf, which according to u in after 9months- 1 year of study ,
so Its gonna be tough ,,

thx mate , u were really helpful

wish I can find a place that teaches medicine in english and dont ask for enormous amounts of money!
 
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slight365

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I guess maybe they have hit a quota for Egyptian students and have tightened restrictions on entrance to reset the numbers. For the middle east, there are entire language schools dominated by Palestinians and Syrians. You might want to see if you can get in touch with any and see how they did it.

I would speak to the Goethe Institute and see what info they have to offer.

Check out the Hungarian medical programs. I forgot how many, but 4-6 have an English program recognized in the US.
 

Kox

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hi boodimarie,
I guess your problem is not that complicated. It will just take you really long to get the level of german language you want to reach for passing DSH. The problem is that learning german for this exam cannot go by the Egyptian style of studying, which i sensed in your ´aggressive` course. You need to give it time. So here is what I would suggest you to do. First you need to decide if you really wanna take this step of studying in germany, and know that as great as it sounds, it has its dark side as well. You wont be able to graduate at the same time you would graduate at if you stay in Egypt. If this is your decision, then I suggest that you finish this year (4th) in egypt, and then move to germany right away. You can definitely learn german language in Germany at least triple as fast as in Egypt. About the visa, there is many ways to get it, but the best is to get it for 2 months for summer as an Exchange student. Egyptian medical student association(EMSA Egypt) can definitely help you with this. I can link you o them if you would like to. this way you will not waste time this summer, you will learn a lot in whatever hospital you will get this training in, you can go in person to all the medical schools you want, and most importantly, you will have an idea about what to expect if you move to germany, so that you can know if you really wanna do this or not.
Regards.
 

boodymarei

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hello Kox ,
well , the aggressive course plan is far away gone now , since I found out its not gonna work , about the 4th year , I'll finish it here in egypt , that was my plan from the very beginning ,
now I'm thinking to get one of the intensive 6 months german courses in germany .. I found many certified institutes in germany , that provide a very good languge courses within 6-9 months .
but , If I done that , it means I'll quit my university in here , with absolute no idea If I'm going to get accepted in a german university after I get the required language level. I'll be screwed by then, wasted a year for nothing.
I dont know If I can apply to a med. college in germany now , can I get accepted , then pass the DSH?
I mean I wont start the study of course till I pass the DSH , but just get a chair reserved , ?
also the Landesprufungsamt , I got no resply from them , so I cant get my credits , cuz I'm not already accepted in a german university.
and I cant get accepted in a german university , cuz I need to get my educational credits accepted by Landesprufungsamt first..

about the EMSA , I ve never heard of that , I hope u can get me some more info about this .

thx for ur interest and help.
 

slight365

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hello Kox ,
well , the aggressive course plan is far away gone now , since I found out its not gonna work , about the 4th year , I'll finish it here in egypt , that was my plan from the very beginning ,
now I'm thinking to get one of the intensive 6 months german courses in germany .. I found many certified institutes in germany , that provide a very good languge courses within 6-9 months .
but , If I done that , it means I'll quit my university in here , with absolute no idea If I'm going to get accepted in a german university after I get the required language level. I'll be screwed by then, wasted a year for nothing.
I dont know If I can apply to a med. college in germany now , can I get accepted , then pass the DSH?
I mean I wont start the study of course till I pass the DSH , but just get a chair reserved , ?
also the Landesprufungsamt , I got no resply from them , so I cant get my credits , cuz I'm not already accepted in a german university.
and I cant get accepted in a german university , cuz I need to get my educational credits accepted by Landesprufungsamt first..

about the EMSA , I ve never heard of that , I hope u can get me some more info about this .

thx for ur interest and help.
They will not reserve a seat for you before the DSH or DAF is passed. Again, they will not consider you unless you have the language proficiency passed before application. They even made the rules tougher last year for medical admissions.

There are several issues they have to deal with, including students who don't pass the exams, don't have sufficient proficiency to even understand the coursework, and then students who work the system for visas. They are not in the business of doing people favors, especially since the schools are incredibly inexpensive.

Again and again, German universities will not consider a student for medical education without a DSH or a DAF passed at the highest level before the date of application. Sometimes there is a window between the application and the matriculation date where they can allow some time in between, but that's only if you're in an approved course and that course will lead to a DSH or DAF exam prior to matriculation. We're talking only a two month period. If you don't make either exam by the opening date of the school, you are dematriculated.

I put in one application early, and didn't have sufficient German studies at the time, and the application wasn't even reviewed. It was immediately stamped, with a checklist returned and an "x" where the language studies were. They check it all out first and will not read anything in the application unless the checklists are cleared. Getting your credits transferred or certified is something different altogether.
 
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boodymarei

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So ,I cant even apply till I pass the DSH exam , or the TestDaf ?
if so , then why they test some applicants for the lang.? I mean some applicants pass the DSH after they got accepted , but if they didnt pass , they will get cancelled.
and thats what I want to do , is this available?

I want to apply now for the next summer . starting in april , the DSH in march I guess , The german course should start from july , finished in february , I will be able to pass the DSH.

but is there such a thing as 1ry acceptence? or my application at the beginning must contain data that I already have good german?

there is another possibility .. I get the course finished at first , then apply for winter 2010-2011 .. but , I'd like to ask , whats the chances that I wont get accepted at any german med. school , after I get my credits approved & TestDaf Passed?

If that happened , that would be catastrophic , quit a year in here in egypt , spent it learning german (which is cool but it's not that cool) , and got nothing in return , back in the same point , with 1 year delayed.

I know thats missy , but I really appreciate ur replies , and ur help . sry for any trouble I'm causing , but this forum was the only place where I get actual info , all the governmental offices , where not helpful at all ..

thx again.
 
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slight365

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Again, I mentioned above, that there could be a window from when you application goes in to the matriculation date (which is the start of school, or some time before).

If you can't get a DSH or DAF standing during that time, they won't let you in and they'll deregister you. Additionally, you typically have to show something at that time that you'll be able to make your exam before the semester opens, or they won't consider you. This means being enrolled in some course that will lead to a DAF or DSH before the school starts. And on top of that, they don't have to offer you any concessions at all, which means if you don't have a DAF or DSH in high standing at the time of application, you aren't considered, period.

I won't talk about people I don't know, but I am giving my experience. If people make it into med school without DSH and DAF scores, then that's fine. I spoke to a bunch of schools before I applied and they said the same thing. No DSH or DAF, no application.

SO to make it clear, once again, no DAF or DSH, no school. Especially in medicine they're making things much stricter and not offering any concessions to anyone due to increased competition.

It's also not a matter of "passing" the DSH or DAF. They both require the highest possible tier of scores for medicine. I also highly advise an actual course to prepare for the exams, whichever one you take. Without them, you could know all the German you want, but they will be exceedingly difficult to get a top score in. Such things as answer formatting. One can have the right answer, but if it's formatted wrong, even if it's correct and in a correct form without mistakes, it's still wrong if you don't put it in a specific form.

I haven't got a clue about your chances. It's based on many things, from you overall score, rankings internationally, DSH and DAF scores, subjective impressions, future outlook, and how represented your nationality is in the foreign student body. There is a high degree of variability and nothing to allow me to base your chances on.

I have no idea what "1ry acceptance" is. I will repeat, they have a checklist of things they check off before they even look at the application once you hand it in. The language exam is one of them. If that is not there, they won't even look at the application, period. It gets returned to you.
 

boodymarei

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ok , thanks .. u answered all my questions :) , and been very helpful.
thx :)
 

pepci

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Is 6-9 months of German language courses enough though to get you to a level of competence? I wonder if that is enough to get you ready for academic studies in german?
 

slight365

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I know people from my classes that were on an extremely high level of German in 6-9 months compared to the classes they were in, close to C level, as far as the classes go, and failed the language exam. It's hard enough that even native German speakers typically won't be able to get the extremely high score required. The scorers are extremely particular, as well.
 

pepci

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Slight, you are full of bullc... You make it seem as if it is an insurmountable hurdle to get over with. I have friends who were able to pass it and NONE of them said it was difficult as you are trying to make it seem. As a matter of fact all of them said it was EASY. Most of them though took German classes for 2 years as a minor before transferring to Germany. I just don't know if 6-9 months intensive language lesson in Germany is enough.

Maybe it was extremely difficult for you Slight but don't put everbody in your category. People might be fast learners than you are...
 
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slight365

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Slight, you are full of bullc... You make it seem as if it is an insurmountable hurdle to get over with. I have friends who were able to pass it and NONE of them said it was difficult as you are trying to make it seem. As a matter of fact all of them said it was EASY. Most of them though took German classes for 2 years as a minor before transferring to Germany. I just don't know if 6-9 months intensive language lesson in Germany is enough.

Maybe it was extremely difficult for you Slight but don't put everbody in your category. People might be fast learners than you are...
Maybe that's why?

An 82 DSH and a 75 DaF is not easy. You take it :laugh:
 

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Just to add another experience..... I am American and went to med school in Germany. I took the DSH Pruefung in 2002 (I am not sure if anything has changed since then). I found it moderately difficult but that's subjective I guess. If you can read at the level of the Sueddeutsche Zeitung (or another comparable paper) and write a somewhat coherent essay (grammer does NOT have to be perfect) you will do fine. I had been living in Germany for 15 months when I took it- I had no prior German but I did take a preparatory course from the Volkshochschule. My reading/ vocabulary was good but my grammer was really not the best (I still can't get the articles right :laugh:) and I scored very high. At that time you didn't have to take the oral if your score was over 80%- at least that was the case for me.

To be honest... I don't think the score was that important. You just had to pass. There were plenty of students whose German was pretty weak at the beginning- although alot of them didn't make it past the Physikum.

Things may have changed since then but that was my experience... hope it helps!
 

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It sounds like you're well beyond the level of training in the Physikum. I've never heard of anyone being able to skip the physikum, so you'll definitely need to take that exam (physiology, biochemistry, anatomy, histo, embryo, psych). I also don't believe they give any credit for clinical classes taken before the Physikum, but I can't be sure.
 

slight365

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Just to add another experience..... I am American and went to med school in Germany. I took the DSH Pruefung in 2002 (I am not sure if anything has changed since then). I found it moderately difficult but that's subjective I guess. If you can read at the level of the Sueddeutsche Zeitung (or another comparable paper) and write a somewhat coherent essay (grammer does NOT have to be perfect) you will do fine. I had been living in Germany for 15 months when I took it- I had no prior German but I did take a preparatory course from the Volkshochschule. My reading/ vocabulary was good but my grammer was really not the best (I still can't get the articles right :laugh:) and I scored very high. At that time you didn't have to take the oral if your score was over 80%- at least that was the case for me.

To be honest... I don't think the score was that important. You just had to pass. There were plenty of students whose German was pretty weak at the beginning- although alot of them didn't make it past the Physikum.

Things may have changed since then but that was my experience... hope it helps!
Grossly incorrect. That is one of the major differences between the DaF and the DSH. Grammar does count very much on the DSH. Generally, the Chinese students are excellent at the grammar, and this is why they opt for the DSH.

My favorite part of the exams is when one can get the answer 100% right, and it's 100% grammatically correct, but not in the right grammatical form (Normalisierung). If not, then it's 100% wrong.

I don't know when you took your exam, but the standards have recently been raised to DSH 3 equivalents. That's an 82 for medicine due to the need to speak with patients.
 

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Just to clarify, my post was referring to the DSH, not the DaF. I have no experience with the DaF and the criteria for the DSH may very well have changed since I took it (in 2002... actually it might have been 2001).

I can only speak of my own experience and I guess what one would consider "perfect" grammer is relative. I think that my sentence structure was good and I had a pretty good vocabulary at the time but...... my grasp of the articles/cases/endings was pretty atrocious (and still is not great). This did not seem to pose too big a problem in the exam and certainly was no problem during my studies or work after graduation (except the occasional embarrassing mistakes in my Arztbriefe :oops:).

Sorry if my post confused anyone.... I don't want to give a false sense of security. When I applied I did not get the impression that perfect German skills were a deciding factor for acceptance- there were many students with pretty poor language skills (they did however really struggle during their studies). It goes with out saying that you have to be able to effectively communicate with the patients to succeed but no one seems to care about the dem/den issues!!
 

mmmiles

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One more thing... in case it helps. There are at least some Uni's, z.B. Wuerzburg, that still only require a DSH 2 for Medizin and Zahnmedizin (at least if you are not applying through the ZVS). Of course, I am sure that a higher score = better chances of getting in.

Good luck to anyone applying!!
 

scoopy

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do have info about sweden?
the same situation in sweden
 

scoopy

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boodymarie i send you a private message would you please answer that thank you
 

slight365

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Just to clarify, my post was referring to the DSH, not the DaF. I have no experience with the DaF and the criteria for the DSH may very well have changed since I took it (in 2002... actually it might have been 2001).

I can only speak of my own experience and I guess what one would consider "perfect" grammer is relative. I think that my sentence structure was good and I had a pretty good vocabulary at the time but...... my grasp of the articles/cases/endings was pretty atrocious (and still is not great). This did not seem to pose too big a problem in the exam and certainly was no problem during my studies or work after graduation (except the occasional embarrassing mistakes in my Arztbriefe :oops:).

Sorry if my post confused anyone.... I don't want to give a false sense of security. When I applied I did not get the impression that perfect German skills were a deciding factor for acceptance- there were many students with pretty poor language skills (they did however really struggle during their studies). It goes with out saying that you have to be able to effectively communicate with the patients to succeed but no one seems to care about the dem/den issues!!
Well, that explains a lot and adds to the gross misinformation given out on these forums. 2002? Yes, the standards have changed SEVERAL times now. For the DSH, an 82 is required, which is considered over such a large exam, "almost perfect". The DSH also varies by university. The DaF is also difficult, but in different ways. Then there's also the muendliche prufung. They're not pulling any punches anymore. Simply put.

Unfortunately, I see much arrogance from American students, which is fairly typical (I'm also from the US), where the students boast about how things were a cinch just to say that to others and either screw them up, or just sit higher. This is not so with this exam. We were given stats and several years in the past had zero DSH3 scores. It's not easy and if it was, there wouldn't be year-long prep courses for them.
 

pepci

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So it's just a year long prep?

Are there any specific language programs that are better than others?
Any that is geared for medical german?
 

pepci

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Are there any medical programs in Germany that teaches medicine in the first two years while the student learns german?
 

slight365

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How do you expect to learn medicine that is taught in German when you don't know how to read, write, or understand German? From experience, I can tell you that much of the functional vocabulary won't come until you're at mid to late C-level.

And don't expect to get past an interview that is conducted in German, without speaking German.
 

pepci

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Thanks for the PM mmmiles. That was really helpful and informative. I contacted Goethe Institute last year and asked about their language programs. They have several and none actually is geared to prepare students for the German language proficiency exam---at least that was what the person at the end of the phone said.

However, I believe that it is way better for me to learn the language where the language originated from. There is in no place better to learn German than in Germany. A salient question now is where are the best programs offered.

A German friend of mine said that Tuebingen University has an excellent program. Do you know where else?

And oh, don't worry about slight. Just ignore him. Sounds like some bitter examinee who failed the exam. Everyone knows he offers no helpful advice. On the other hand he reeks with discouragement saying how hard it is to pass exams, much less get an admission to a med school. Notice how he repeats himself: "oh it is so hard that even native speakers find it extremely difficult." Big bull. Extremely exaggerated. And very comical.

Just ignore him.

Thanks mmmiles..
 

slight365

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Sounds like some bitter examinee who failed the exam.

Do you have anything stronger than that? I'm illustrating reality. That's why several schools offer 1 year programs to lead up to a DaF or DSH. The last DSH I took was six hours long, and an 82 really is "fast perfekt", considering how much volume there is.

I'm not discouraging anyone, but I've seen tons of people fail.

...and yes, even native speakers do fail it. The problem is not always about the right answer. You'll see. Luckily, I got two practice tests in my last course. I sure as hell needed them.

Good luck.
 

mmmiles

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pepci,

It is true that the dropout rate is very high in German medical programs. This is mainly because of the reasons that you mentioned. The main point where people drop out is after the 4th semester when they take the first board exam (Physikum). It is a hard exam with a very strong focus on basic science (Chem, Bio, Biochem, Anatomy, Physiology) with both a written and an oral component. You can take this exam up to 3 times but many fail once and then transfer to another area of study. For those who pass the Physikum and go on to the clinic the dropout rates are very low. There is another board exam all the way at the end but more than 90% pass it on the first try.

University in Germany is very independent. Some lectures are very good and helpful while others are a waste… there is not much “formal training” for the board exams but there are lots of resources available to prepare with. I think the overall training is good and comparable to other European countries (and the US) but it requires a lot of self-motivation and discipline. With the recent changes in the education system, the programs are becoming more “schooled” with lots more written and oral exams… this is a bit annoying but it does help better prepare for the boards. In general, grades during medical school are not as important in Germany as they are in the US. Until recently there were only grades on the board exams. They now grade each individual course but this is still not very standardized, although it will certainly gain importance in the future.

If you finish successfully it is usually no problem getting a position afterwards. There are some competitive fields but the job market is very good at the moment for finishing doctors (I am not sure what the future trend is like).

I don’t know any statistics for foreigners but they certainly have a much higher dropout rate. I think that the main barrier for most is the language, particularly since all subjects are tested both written and orally.

There are many places that offer DSH geared courses- however, you need to be pretty fluent before taking them. I took one at the Volkshochschule in Munich that was good and cheap but certainly not as intense as many of the others likely are. Unfortunately, I don’t know which ones are the best. Learning German in Germany is the way to go!! I think after about 6 months you will be able to gauge how quickly you learn and how much time you will need… think this varies a lot from one person to another!

Wow..... long post!! Hope it answered you questions. :)
 
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