Could every D.O student succeed in the Caribbean?

[Alienman52]

So what i am hearing is that caribbean MD schools are for sure horrible choices to get a good medical education and so SDN has a responsibility to protect future applicants to those schools?

Forgive me but are there students that graduate caribbean MD and go on to become doctors? Are all those that bash caribbean MD schools graduates, students or ex students of said schools and have firsthand knowledge giving them credibility?

It seems most that bash caribeean MDs are students, and in the case of some self proclaimed adcoms, just persons (not students) that have not gone to a caribbean MD school. And it seems like most then are giving their opinion about caribeean schools.

In that same regard, it should be just as tolerable (and encouraged) for users to give their opinion on DO programs and the future of those applicants based on ther interpretaton of the data. heresay, and experience of others they hear about.

My example. When i was a medical student on a subI, i heard the program director of the vascular surgery fellowship say that anytime he gets an application frm a DO graduate, he throws it away. My conclusiom based on that experience and similar stories is that if you go to a DO program you are,in my eyes, at a hige disadvantage when competmg for surgical reaidencies and fellowships. That post got deleted.

I do not get the rationale.

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No one is denying that DOs are at a disadvantage. Have you ever been on the osteo and pre-osteo forum? We're saying that carrib students are at an even larger disadvantage.


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[samac]

So what i am hearing is that caribbean MD schools are for sure horrible choices to get a good medical education and so SDN has a responsibility to protect future applicants to those schools?

Forgive me but are there students that graduate caribbean MD and go on to become doctors? Are all those that bash caribbean MD schools graduates, students or ex students of said schools and have firsthand knowledge giving them credibility?

It seems most that bash caribeean MDs are students, and in the case of some self proclaimed adcoms, just persons (not students) that have not gone to a caribbean MD school. And it seems like most then are giving their opinion about caribeean schools.

In that same regard, it should be just as tolerable (and encouraged) for users to give their opinion on DO programs and the future of those applicants based on ther interpretaton of the data. heresay, and experience of others they hear about.

My example. When i was a medical student on a subI, i heard the program director of the vascular surgery fellowship say that anytime he gets an application frm a DO graduate, he throws it away. My conclusiom based on that experience and similar stories is that if you go to a DO program you are,in my eyes, at a hige disadvantage when competmg for surgical reaidencies and fellowships. That post got deleted.

I do not get the rationale.

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I don't believe adcoms delete posts here. They lock threads and ban people.

The people who make it from the carribean I think we can all say congratulations to them. No one is knocking those who have successfully came out on the other side. The issue is what I'm sure you've seen first hand, a large portion of people don't make it that far. We're trying to protect those with the dream of medicine from risking going into tons of debt and getting nothing in return by flunking out.

 

[pseud0]

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So what i am hearing is that caribbean MD schools are for sure horrible choices to get a good medical education and so SDN has a responsibility to protect future applicants to those schools?

No responsibility, just sharing "factual information"

Forgive me but are there students that graduate caribbean MD and go on to become doctors? Are all those that bash caribbean MD schools graduates, students or ex students of said schools and have firsthand knowledge giving them credibility?

Yes, of course there are students at carib schools that become practicing docs. I posted earlier regarding the estimated 80% chance of becoming a practicing doctor after dropping 500 thousand dollars. Is that a good investment?
You don't need "firsthand knowledge" when you have "facts" and "data" to back up the claim that it is likely a poor investment to attend one

It seems most that bash caribeean MDs are students, and in the case of some self proclaimed adcoms, just persons (not students) that have not gone to a caribbean MD school. And it seems like most then are giving their opinion about caribeean schools.

Noone is giving their opinion, they're examining the available evidence about carib schools and coming to the conclusion that the risk outweighs the potential benefit, especially if you haven't tried to go to an American school a couple times previously. It's virtually a fact.

In that same regard, it should be just as tolerable (and encouraged) for users to give their opinion on DO programs and the future of those applicants based on ther interpretaton of the data. heresay, and experience of others they hear about.

Yes, it is tolerated to discuss DO programs. The "facts" show that DO programs give you a much (much, much, much) higher probability of becoming a practicing doctor in the US after graduation.

My example. When i was a medical student on a subI, i heard the program director of the vascular surgery fellowship say that anytime he gets an application frm a DO graduate, he throws it away. My conclusiom based on that experience and similar stories is that if you go to a DO program you are,in my eyes, at a hige disadvantage when competmg for surgical reaidencies and fellowships. That post got deleted.

1). anecdotal evidence is not evidence.
2). Ask the vascular surgery fellowship director what he does when he gets an applicant that attended Ross University School of Medicine.
3). obviously you are at a disadvantage when competing for surgical residencies and fellowships, stop pretending carib school graduates aren't also at a massive disadvantage

 

[Carbon090]

These types of threads always end the same.

 

[Alienman52]

2). Ask the vascular surgery fellowship director what he does when he gets an applicant that attended Ross University School of Medicine.

Hahaha absolute savagery.

In all seriousness, I think pseud0 has answered the question more than adequately.

 

[Favoritefarm]

I dont think the question was answered but I appreciate the responses.

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[W19]

I have a honest question.

Why is SDN so cool with bashing caribbean MD? But they get up in arms when anyone even hints at anything negative about DO? Isnt it a double standard?

Can someone explain why one is OK (and encouraged) and the other is a ban?

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It's not about bashing Caribbean MD... The whole Caribbean MD vs DO comes down to one question: Which one gives you a better chance to become a PHYSICIAN?

 

[Nikj]

So what i am hearing is that caribbean MD schools are for sure horrible choices to get a good medical education and so SDN has a responsibility to protect future applicants to those schools?

Forgive me but are there students that graduate caribbean MD and go on to become doctors? Are all those that bash caribbean MD schools graduates, students or ex students of said schools and have firsthand knowledge giving them credibility?

It seems most that bash caribeean MDs are students, and in the case of some self proclaimed adcoms, just persons (not students) that have not gone to a caribbean MD school. And it seems like most then are giving their opinion about caribeean schools.

In that same regard, it should be just as tolerable (and encouraged) for users to give their opinion on DO programs and the future of those applicants based on ther interpretaton of the data. heresay, and experience of others they hear about.

My example. When i was a medical student on a subI, i heard the program director of the vascular surgery fellowship say that anytime he gets an application frm a DO graduate, he throws it away. My conclusiom based on that experience and similar stories is that if you go to a DO program you are,in my eyes, at a hige disadvantage when competmg for surgical reaidencies and fellowships. That post got deleted.

I do not get the rationale.

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Irrespective of any schools actual quality of education, US MD, US DO, or Carr. MD, US MD ≥US DO > Carr MD for obtaining a residency, and the actual value of a degree. People only became disrespectful when you started making unprofessional remarks about the quality of DO schools and DO students. There are obviously very qualified students from both types of schools. The reason why people on SDN advocate so strongly for DO over Carr MD is because the DO is a legitimate alternative to attending a US MD school.

 

[laricb]

Some wonder "who would be fooled Caribbean admissions sale pitches?" and we have an example of one right here. They fail to realize that anyone who is equally thirsty for superficial prestige and turning their nose up at US trained doctors with a DO, is also going to vomit when they realize that MD is really a caribbean school MD. Kind of like if one of these island nations built an undergrad and named it Harvard, the piece of paper they give you might say Harvard but those ivy chasers will know its a fake. But I'm sure it gives those that didn't match an edge when applying for part-time junior college instructing and "consultant" jobs.

Don't think so

 

[Alienman52]

Don't think so

Don't think so about what?


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[laricb]

The answer to that question is simple. The Caribbean schools are for profit entities and they use misleading advertising and placement statistics to lure students. You've heard of predatory lenders right? These Caribbean schools are predatory educational institutions. You know why, I don't have to explain that to you. You've lived it and saw many MD wannabes get destroyed by that business model. Goro and many other people on this site (including me) try to steer students away from the Caribbean schools for that very reason.

Why do you think DO schools were created to lore students that couldn't make it into an MD Program. So they created A phony title. It works well, now they are creating schools on every other corner...

 

[Alienman52]

Why do you think DO schools were created to lore students that couldn't make it into an MD Program. So they created A phony title. It works well, now they are creating schools on every other corner...

Every other corner...in the US.



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[pseud0]

Why do you think DO schools were created to lore students that couldn't make it into an MD Program. So they created A phony title. It works well, now they are creating schools on every other corner...

Did you mean lure? You are also completely and utterly wrong in every way about how the DO degree started. Please at least read wikipedia before making completely asinine statements

 

[laricb]

Don't think so about what?


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There are thousands of foreign trained doctors in the US.

 

[W19]

I don't agree with laricb overall point, but one also has to be concerned about the proliferation of DO school...

 

[Alienman52]

There are thousands of foreign trained doctors in the US. And SGU is responsible for many of them. I only hear stories of patients turning there heads when they see a DO title on a coat or a wall....

Lol can you go away? You're literally just making things worse with your misinformed, idiotic, asinine posts haha. Let's just agree to disagree? If you'd rather go to a carrib school over DO that's fine; I'm done arguing with your flawless logic.


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[Alienman52]

I don't agree with laricb overall point, but one also has to be concerned about the proliferation of DO school...

Absolutely do concur. Id venture to say however that a newly opened DO school is still better quality than carrib.


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[laricb]

Did you mean lure? You are also completely and utterly wrong in every way about how the DO degree started. Please at least read wikipedia before making completely asinine statements

I get my info from what many Medical Doctors tell me, not what AOA wants you to believe.

 

[W19]

There are thousands of foreign trained doctors in the US. And SGU is responsible for many of them. I only hear stories of patients turning there heads when they see a DO title on a coat or a wall....

You make (made) it as a Carib student... Now stop bashing DO!

 

[W19]

Absolutely do concur. Id venture to say however that a newly opened DO school is still begged quality than carrib.


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Agree... even LUCOM

 

[laricb]

Lol can you go away? You're literally just making things worse with your misinformed, idiotic, asinine posts haha. Let's just agree to disagree? If you'd rather go to a carrib school over DO that's fine; I'm done arguing with your flawless logic.


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You keep coming back to me. I gave up with you 2 days ago.

 

[laricb]

Agree... even LUCOM

Not ROSS or SGU

 

[Alienman52]

You make (made) it as a Carib student... Now stop bashing DO!

Honestly, I really couldn't care less about what this guy thinks. He can look at match data if he likes. Let him bash; just makes him look silly when he bashes in favor of carrib.


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[W19]

Not ROSS or SGU

I would choose LUCOM over them... I don't have the guts to gamble with 350k+. That's just me!

 

[Alienman52]

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PD-Survey-Report-2014.pdf
US IMG are less considered in almost every field...not to mention DOs have AOA spots. That coupled with cost of tuition, and the countless other statistics mentioned here, the picture of the facts is fairly clear.

It's crazy. The data is right here and we still have people who like to argue in favor of carrib.


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[laricb]

You make (made) it as a Carib student... Now stop bashing DO!

Check my posts I never bashed a DO Student.

 

[Alienman52]

Check my posts I never bashed a DO Student.

No, you bashed the profession.


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[Mad Jack]

Considering that some students can't hack it in DO school, no.

And there's the lack of support in Carib schools.

And the fact that you need higher stats to match a residency.

A lot of DO students would fail for various reasons.

 

[laricb]

No, you bashed the profession.


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Correct when my schools training is brought into question. SGU did me right and I don't like when its compared to other carib schools not up to its standards

 

[Staphylococcus Aureus]

@laricb doesn't think the data is applicable to Ross or SGU because they are the most prestigious of the businesses on third world islands that house students hoping to return to the U.S.

Trust me, no one who is pretentious enough to care which school their doctor attended is saying "oh wait, it's St. George! Now that's the best of the offshore schools!"

I'm glad you made it out of there, and I would never assume a practicing doc from the Carib is incompetent in any way, but your alma mater has ruined probably thousands of lives.

 

[Favoritefarm]

Im glad that SGU worked out for you. I have no doubt your education is worthy of whatever residency spot you have gotten or will get. But still, as I have said, and as people here have said regarding DO vs US MD, your case is not typical. Again referring to the ACGME PD survey it is simply a fact that US IMG have a harder time being considered than DO in most specialities. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous and misleading.

I think he may just be annoyed that people are saying his degree just qualifies him for consulting jobs or to instruct at a community college. I dont think he is saying everyone that goes to SGU has a successful match.

Which is my point. People talk crap about caribbean md all the time and its totally OK with SDN culture.

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[laricb]

I think he may just be annoyed that people are saying his degree just qualifies him for consulting jobs or to instruct at a community college. I dont think he is saying everyone that goes to SGU has a successful match.

Which is my point. People talk crap about caribbean md all the time and its totally OK with SDN culture.

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Someone who finally gets it

 

[laricb]

IF people are talking about SGU/Caribbean graduates in such specific terms as only being eligible for consulting jobs, obviously that isnt acceptable (although i have not personally seen this) however several comments suggesting the superiority of an MD degree (obtained in the Caribbean) over DO degree made by some students/grads suggest an equally pervasive side to the argument. I think what most people on here are talking about is generalities on ensuring success as a physician . In which case there really is no argument against the fact that DO provides better opportunities than Caribbean. I think that is what SDN is stressing (to pre-meds especially)

A previous quote
Because they all are the same pile of garbage. Ross and SGU might be the cleaner less smelly things in the garbage, but they're still in the trash bag with the rest of it

 

[Goro]

This is nothing new. This is a reality and DO students are aware of it. The AOA brings this down on the head of the DO world because COCA doesn't have the teeth it should to get schools to have better rotation sites. So DOs are all tarred by the same brush that their clinical training is poor. We get that.

Most DOs go for Primary Care, and they're OK with that. But a third of DOs get into specialties (> 40% for my kids), mostly ACGME ones, and they're kicking open doors that were sealed shut to DOs just a few years ago.

When one tells the truth, it's not bashing.


My example. When i was a medical student on a subI, i heard the program director of the vascular surgery fellowship say that anytime he gets an application frm a DO graduate, he throws it away. My conclusiom based on that experience and similar stories is that if you go to a DO program you are,in my eyes, at a hige disadvantage when competmg for surgical reaidencies and fellowships. That post got deleted.

 

[pseud0]

I get my info from what many Medical Doctors tell me, not what AOA wants you to believe.

lol if a md told you this

"Why do you think DO schools were created to lore students that couldn't make it into an MD Program. So they created A phony title. It works well, now they are creating schools on every other corner..."

they know so little about the history of medical education that they are not worth talking to. Osteopathic Medical Schools started in the ****ing 19TH CENTURY as a backlash against the harmful treatment pathways allopathic physicians were using at the time. It slowly evolved, as treatment pathways got better and better, to be nearly indistinguishable from allopathic medical school education. Here we are today.

the degree was not created to "lore students that couldn't make it into MD programs", a fact you could have learned from a cursory glance at the first two paragraphs of the Osteopathic Medicine wikipedia page.

 

[W19]

A previous quote
Because they all are the same pile of garbage. Ross and SGU might be the cleaner less smelly things in the garbage, but they're still in the trash bag with the rest of it

The argument was about which path gives one a better opportunity to become a doc in the US... I am at a US MD; Ross or SGU might or might not provide a better education than my school. Who knows! However, at the end of the day you need a damn residency to practice medicine in the US and my school will give me a better opportunity to achieve that...

 

[Spectreman]

I just finished reading the whole thing. Wow, just depressing. The ending really got me. Dang.


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I don't find the million dollar mistake story that depressing. In a nutshell, he had a hard time getting rotations he wanted and couldn't match ortho. I'm sorry, but a quick review of the published match list from ROSS/SGU and you can instantly see ZERO ortho matches. And so he matched into IM. What is wrong with that? And if he wanted surgery so bad then why did t he list Gen Surge as his second instead of IM? He can still go on to be a great cardiologist or whatever. Instead he sounds kind of arrogant. "In the first week of residency, I'm so much smarter than everyone around me, it's so depressing." I know it's a bummer that he couldn't match into his dream residency, but yeesh. Does anyone else get that vibe with this story? I know the link gets tossed around SDN a lot. I think the story of the gal at Marion who's now going to nursing to become an NP after graduating from AUC is more depressing. She's an MD, but can't move forward because she bombed her step exam like 5 times. She blames AUC for not properly preparing her. I would just hate to go through all of that for nothing.


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[AnatomyGrey12]

I don't find the million dollar mistake story that depressing. In a nutshell, he had a hard time getting rotations he wanted and couldn't match ortho. I'm sorry, but a quick review of the published match list from ROSS/SGU and you can instantly see ZERO ortho matches. And so he matched into IM. What is wrong with that? And if he wanted surgery so bad then why did t he list Gen Surge as his second instead of IM? He can still go on to be a great cardiologist or whatever. Instead he sounds kind of arrogant. "In the first week of residency, I'm so much smarter than everyone around me, it's so depressing." I know it's a bummer that he couldn't match into his dream residency, but yeesh. Does anyone else get that vibe with this story? I know the link gets tossed around SDN a lot. I think the story of the gal at Marion who's now going to nursing to become an NP after graduating from AUC is more depressing. She's an MD, but can't move forward because she bombed her step exam like 5 times. She blames AUC for not properly preparing her. I would just hate to go through all of that for nothing.


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Hit it on the head. That guy had some personality issues that probably showed in his CV.

 

[pseud0]

I don't find the million dollar mistake story that depressing. In a nutshell, he had a hard time getting rotations he wanted and couldn't match ortho. I'm sorry, but a quick review of the published match list from ROSS/SGU and you can instantly see ZERO ortho matches. And so he matched into IM. What is wrong with that? And if he wanted surgery so bad then why did t he list Gen Surge as his second instead of IM? He can still go on to be a great cardiologist or whatever. Instead he sounds kind of arrogant. "In the first week of residency, I'm so much smarter than everyone around me, it's so depressing." I know it's a bummer that he couldn't match into his dream residency, but yeesh. Does anyone else get that vibe with this story? I know the link gets tossed around SDN a lot. I think the story of the gal at Marion who's now going to nursing to become an NP after graduating from AUC is more depressing. She's an MD, but can't move forward because she bombed her step exam like 5 times. She blames AUC for not properly preparing her. I would just hate to go through all of that for nothing.


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my exact thoughts. The guy is so sad doing the job i hope to do in my future and didn't research the fact that its almost impossible to get an ortho residency from his school...and he also thougth he'd be able to transfer to a USMD school?

He did so little research and he still ended up a success I find it nearly impossible to care.

like why would you even go to medical school if you're only interested in *~one*~ specialty. One of the most competitive at that. Seriously?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

my exact thoughts. The guy is so sad doing the job i hope to do in my future and didn't research the fact that its almost impossible to get an ortho residency from his school...and he also thougth he'd be able to transfer to a USMD school?

He did so little research and he still ended up a success I find it nearly impossible to care.

like why would you even go to medical school if you're only interested in *~one*~ specialty. One of the most competitive at that. Seriously?

That story is hilarious. The guy comes off as your typical pseudo-intellectual where they think because they can do well on an exam that means that their intelligence applies to everything. From what I remember, he got a few MD interviews, but he didn't get into any schools. Instead of really trying to understand why or getting some feedback from the schools, he concluded it was because of his name/ethnicity. Then he does get an acceptance to TouroCA, but because he's arrogant, of course he turns it down to get an MD degree. A couple of seconds of research would have shown him that DOs matched much more easily into ortho (mainly because of the protected AOA spots then) than did caribbean graduates. Overall, the story is not that the million dollar mistake was going to the Caribbean. It is that he is the type of person that chooses to go into the Caribbean.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

That story is hilarious. The guy comes off as your typical pseudo-intellectual where they think because they can do well on an exam that means that their intelligence applies to everything. From what I remember, he got a few MD interviews, but he didn't get into any schools. Instead of really trying to understand why or getting some feedback from the schools, he concluded it was because of his name/ethnicity. Then he does get an acceptance to TouroCA, but because he's arrogant, of course he turns it down to get an MD degree. A couple of seconds of research would have shown him that DOs matched much more easily into ortho (mainly because of the protected AOA spots then) than did caribbean graduates. Overall, the story is not that the million dollar mistake was going to the Caribbean. It is that he is the type of person that chooses to go into the Caribbean.

That's always what kills me about this story. If he had gone to TouroCA he would be an orthopedic surgeon right now. Who knows, he might have even been one of the few who matches ACGME ortho every year.

 

[Staphylococcus Aureus]

IF people are talking about SGU/Caribbean graduates in such specific terms as only being eligible for consulting jobs, obviously that isnt acceptable (although i have not personally seen this)

I said those who don't match will be fighting for consulting and part time instructing positions, correct me if anyone thinks this is not reality. Anyone portraying the caribbean route as a better end product (a reason some choose carib because they think its more prestigious) deserves to be confronted so they don't lure more premeds down that road, it isn't bashing. I'm sure there's a great deal of less flattering positions carib grads are taking than consulting.