COVID-19 and partial tuition reimbursement for medical students

[dancingdoc5]

Hello all! Has there been any movement on medical students discussing or receiving partial tuition reimbursement for school closures due to COVID-19?

Loyola Stritch is reimbursing for gym and parking fees but administration is resistant to partial tuition reimbursement. We have no live lectures; we are watching recorded lectures from last year. Many students here feel that we should have some reimbursement for the use of old materials, no standardized patients, test proctors, small group facilitators, student activity fees, computer lab fees, student health service, student hospital insurance, etc. When asked about partial tuition reimbursement, administrators have responded that "it is projected that the university will lose over $20 million from this shut-down" so apparently the onus of paying that debt will be placed on the students who are no longer receiving the same education they were promised.

Are other medical schools making any movement on this front? Has anyone started a petition?

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[Ho0v-man]

 

[anbuitachi]

they are doing this on all levels of medicine. from student to attending. because you live in a society with corporate medicine. its all about bottom line.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Get used to it. I’d love to have my gym membership fee refunded

 

[habibimarwan]

It is nice they are generous with refunding fees you dont use. Early graduate would be nice too. Shorten school 6 months early good idea?

 

[throwaway1000000]

Haha if only. I mean they should give at least 30% of spring semester tuition fees back but they won't.
I think med students should tell them what we think but they will not.

 

[GoSpursGo]

So, I don't think you really want to make the argument that they aren't providing you ~30% of your required education this year. Logically, you would then need to extend your med school by ~3-4 months to make up that education that you didn't receive. I assume you wouldn't want that.

Yes, it's a crappy situation, and you're probably not getting your money's worth. But at the end of the day all that matters is that they graduate you in 4 years. Take this chance to cram for step 1.

 

[Chibucks15]

Why should we get refunded? I'm all about saving money as much as the next guy but this was an unforeseen circumstance that literally hasn't happened in >100 years. It isn't like they completely are blowing off our education we're still getting some at least. I never understand this argument because there are a million ways that its flawed. Sure this sucks, but it isn't like the entire medical education system had any time to prepare for something like this...I'd rather deal with this nonsense now than extend any more time and money into med school

 

[throwaway1000000]

Haha if only. I mean they should give at least 30% of spring semester tuition fees back but they won't.
I think med students should tell them what we think but they will not.

Maybe this won't apply for all the classes because like you said they are giving you online classes or something.
But as an M4 I am not getting any education. Some M4s are even being graduated early! Don't see why some of our tuiton can't be refunded. I am not saying they will, they won't. But not sure of the logical argument of basically graduating us but still collecting tuition for the entire period.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Maybe this won't apply for all the classes because like you said they are giving you online classes or something.
But as an M4 I am not getting any education. Some M4s are even being graduated early! Don't see why some of our tuiton can't be refunded. I am not saying they will, they won't. But not sure of the logical argument of basically graduating us but still collecting tuition for the entire period.

I can kind of see an argument if you're being graduated early... but not really, since you probably paid tuition for the "spring semester" rather than a specific number of months.

If you're not getting any education as an M4, I would say you're doing it right

 

[Dave1980]

Dum. You are getting credit for the year so pay up.

 

[throwaway1000000]

I can kind of see an argument if you're being graduated early... but not really, since you probably paid tuition for the "spring semester" rather than a specific number of months.

If you're not getting any education as an M4, I would say you're doing it right

Very poor way of looking at M4 year although I get that's how it is always looked at. M4s need to get education. If we are not, we should be graduating early and starting residencies early...I am not going to waste money when I don't need to be.

Like I said, I get it there is not going to be any refund here but ideally there should be for M4s who are done with all coursework and are not getting any teaching from the med school.

 

[Dave1980]

Like I said, I get it there is not going to be any refund here but ideally there should be for M4s who are done with all coursework and are not getting any teaching from the med school.

I want to see the e-mail asking about a refund.

"We demand a refund. We are missing out on the opportunity to stand around and act interested. In addition we will not be able to provide donuts on the last day of a rotation as a bribe to the preceptors."

 

[GoSpursGo]

Very poor way of looking at M4 year although I get that's how it is always looked at. M4s need to get education. If we are not, we should be graduating early and starting residencies early...I am not going to waste money when I don't need to be.

Like I said, I get it there is not going to be any refund here but ideally there should be for M4s who are done with all coursework and are not getting any teaching from the med school.

Oh come on, I didn't finish med school so long ago that I need someone to give me a holier-than-thou speech about the importance of an M4 education.

There is naturally a bit of buffer built into a medical school curriculum because sometimes things don't go as planned. Someone might fail step 1 and be delayed in starting clinical rotations, others might need to repeat a sub-I or a clerkship, you took a medical LOA/parental leave, etc--there are any number of legitimate reasons you might need a few more months to complete the graduation requirements than your peers. If you don't have an issue and "go straight through," then the vast majority of students take the opportunity to have to time off before they start residency.

If you actually had electives scheduled all the way up until graduation day because you were just that eager to learn, then I guess this is a bummer for you. But it's difficult to argue that the school isn't fulfilling their requirement to you as long as they provide you enough education to allow you to graduate on time.

 

[throwaway1000000]

I want to see the e-mail asking about a refund.

"We demand a refund. We are missing out on the opportunity to stand around and act interested. In addition we will not be able to provide donuts on the last day of a rotation as a bribe to the preceptors."

I definitely didn't treat rotations like this in M3 or M4. Learned a lot and worked hard on all my rotations.
If this is how rotations are treated, not sure the point of paying for them. Can graduate early, start residency earlier and starting earning earlier.

 

[throwaway1000000]

Oh come on, I didn't finish med school so long ago that I need someone to give me a holier-than-thou speech about the importance of an M4 education.

There is naturally a bit of buffer built into a medical school curriculum because sometimes things don't go as planned. Someone might fail step 1 and be delayed in starting clinical rotations, others might need to repeat a sub-I or a clerkship, you took a medical LOA/parental leave, etc--there are any number of legitimate reasons you might need a few more months to complete the graduation requirements than your peers. If you don't have an issue and "go straight through," then the vast majority of students take the opportunity to have to time off before they start residency.

If you actually had electives scheduled all the way up until graduation day because you were just that eager to learn, then I guess this is a bummer for you. But it's difficult to argue that the school isn't fulfilling their requirement to you as long as they provide you enough education to allow you to graduate on time.

Minority of people need those buffer months. Makes sense to take the extra money from those minority if they need to use the buffer months.
I had electives scheduled in a field I want go into until the end of the year.

If M4 is going to be used as vacation time, I again don't see why paying tuition to take time off and go on a vacation? Finish med school in 3.5 years. Conduct interviews after graduation, match, and take vacation without having to pay tuition.

 

[Chibucks15]

Minority of people need those buffer months. Makes sense to take the extra money from those minority if they need to use the buffer months.
I had electives scheduled in a field I want go into until the end of the year.

If M4 is going to be used as vacation time, I again don't see why paying tuition to take time off and go on a vacation? Finish med school in 3.5 years. Conduct interviews after graduation, match, and take vacation without having to pay tuition.

Okay. But that just isn't how the system is sooo...

 

[throwaway1000000]

Okay. But that just isn't how the system is sooo...

Ya, but the system gave you an option of being on rotations and getting an education.
If the system is graduating you early then.....yeah it does make sense to talk about getting some money refunded.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Ya, but the system gave you an option of taking electives and getting education.
If the system is graduating you early then.....yeah it does make sense to talk about getting some money refunded.

... but it's not graduating you early. You're talking about a parallel universe where the buffer time isn't intrinsically built into the 4 years of medical school (which by the way, I think would be a terrible idea because then you're just screwing over anyone who has any blip in their medical education), but we do have that buffer time built in. Good for you that you were going to use that time to take additional electives, but it's certainly not a requirement or even the norm. So again, I think you're mostly shaking your fist at the sky because you, personally, are inconvenienced by this system, but it isn't really "unfair."

 

[Dave1980]

I definitely didn't treat rotations like this in M3 or M4. Learned a lot and worked hard on all my rotations.

You did it wrong.

 

[throwaway1000000]

... but it's not graduating you early. You're talking about a parallel universe where the buffer time isn't intrinsically built into the 4 years of medical school (which by the way, I think would be a terrible idea because then you're just screwing over anyone who has any blip in their medical education), but we do have that buffer time built in. Good for you that you were going to use that time to take additional electives, but it's certainly not a requirement or even the norm. So again, I think you're mostly shaking your fist at the sky because you, personally, are inconvenienced by this system, but it isn't really "unfair."

But we are being graduated early here...basically got let out of 2 rotations I was signed up for saying I already fulfilled all the credits needed by LCME. It brings across 2 points: 1) why the heck am I still in school if fulfilled all my requirements (sorry not going to spend extra time and money so people that need a buffer can catch up) 2) before COVID, I still could use those months productively. After COVID, I cannot use those months to get any additional education.

I am not saying it's "unfair". It is how the system is setup and you went into medical school knowing that's how the system will be.

I am saying there is an argument here to be made for partial reimbursement of tuition for M4s who are getting nothing because of the current situation.

 

[Dave1980]

before COVID, I still could use those months productively. After COVID, I cannot use those months to get any additional education.

Can you read?

 

[throwaway1000000]

Can you read?

Are you a real physician or did you get by providing donuts at the end of your rotations?

 

[Dave1980]

Are you a real physician?

Yes and I learned most of what I know from reading books.

 

[throwaway1000000]

Yes and I learned most of what I know from reading books.

So in that case you didn't even need to go to medical school other than for a degree. None of this matters to you.

I am talking about people like me who are paying to get something out of medical school and are not due to what's going on.

 

[GoSpursGo]

But we are being graduated early here...basically got let out of 2 rotations I was signed up for saying I already fulfilled all the credits needed by LCME. It brings across 2 points: 1) why the heck am I still in school if fulfilled all my requirements (sorry not going to spend extra time and money so people that need a buffer can catch up) 2) before COVID, I still could use those months productively. After COVID, I cannot use those months to get any additional education.

I am not saying it's "unfair". It is how the system is setup and you went into medical school knowing that's how the system will be.

I am saying there is an argument here to be made for partial reimbursement of tuition for M4s who are getting nothing because of the current situation.

The bolded portion is incredibly selfish and short-sighted. Think about the actual ramifications of having the baseline being that students graduate in 3.5 years and start residency in January. So you literally suggest that anyone who fails a single rotation, or gets sick for a month and has to take an LOA, or has a baby... they just have to suck it up and stay an extra year?

In any event, we are arguing about a hypothetical universe that, again, does not exist, and as you yourself have acknowledge you're not getting a refund. I'm honestly embarrassed for myself that I let myself get outraged over such a trivial complaint given everything else that is going on in the world.

 

[Dave1980]

So in that case you didn't even need to go to medical school other than for a degree.

Finally we can agree on something!

 

[throwaway1000000]

The bolded portion is incredibly selfish and short-sighted. Think about the actual ramifications of having the baseline being that students graduate in 3.5 years and start residency in January. So you literally suggest that anyone who fails a single rotation, or gets sick for a month and has to take an LOA, or has a baby... they just have to suck it up and stay an extra year?

In any event, we are arguing about a hypothetical universe that, again, does not exist, and as you yourself have acknowledge you're not getting a refund. I'm honestly embarrassed for myself that I let myself get outraged over such a trivial complaint given everything else that is going on in the world.

Or they just finish a few months later and start residency a few months later...

The point of this thread was not how M4 should be structured in a hypothetical world.

You kept trying to make points about buffer time, so I was telling you it doesn't need to be that way.

Ultimately M4s were always allowed to be on rotations and learn something hence justifying the tuition. Now they are not.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Or they just finish a few months later and start residency a few months later...

You kept trying to make points about buffer time, so I was telling you it doesn't need to be that way.

That clearly does not work with how the match is set up. Everyone has to have the same end date so that everyone can have the same start date. We're already dealing with a hypothetical setup for how M4 works, so I'll pass on arguing about whether the match is necessary.

 

[throwaway1000000]

That clearly does not work with how the match is set up. Everyone has to have the same end date so that everyone can have the same start date. We're already dealing with a hypothetical setup for how M4 works, so I'll pass on arguing about whether the match is necessary.

I don't understand why you insist on arguing about a hypothetical M4 setup. Lots of work needs to go into making a different M4 system. Maybe that might involve changing how the match is done. That is not the point of this thread.

And I think I made my points relevant to this topic. If you have something relevant to add to that topic, I can talk about that.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I don't understand why you insist on arguing about a hypothetical M4 setup. Lots of work needs to go into making a different M4 system. Maybe that might involve changing how the match is done. That is not the point of this thread.

And I think I made my points relevant to this topic. If you have something relevant to add to that topic, I can talk about that.

Your points are inextricable from changing how M4 is set up. You asked "Why am I still here paying tuition if I've fulfilled my graduation requirements," and my answer is because of the necessary buffer/elective time. You can't graduate early and ask for a refund without imagining a completely system, so trying to discuss your argument in a vacuum makes no sense.

 

[throwaway1000000]

Your points are inextricable from changing how M4 is set up. You asked "Why am I still here paying tuition if I've fulfilled my graduation requirements," and my answer is because of the necessary buffer/elective time. You can't graduate early and ask for a refund without imagining a completely system, so trying to discuss your argument in a vacuum makes no sense.

No that's part of what I wonder about, but in the current system pre-COVID I can take additional rotations even if I fulfilled all my requirements until the end of M4 so makes sense to pay tuition.

Post-COVID, I am not able to take any rotations so there is an argument to be made partial reimbursement which was the point of this thread.

 

[deleted1005514]

I thought the total cost of med school was averaged over the four years, because years 3/4 cost more than 1/2. Makes sense they they couldn’t break up tuition for that reason.

Now, facility fees, gym fees, etc...I’m all for pushing to get those back, especially if the undergrads got refunds too.

 

[Chibucks15]

No that's part of what I wonder about, but in the current system pre-COVID I can take additional rotations even if I fulfilled all my requirements until the end of M4 so makes sense to pay tuition.

Post-COVID, I am not able to take any rotations so there is an argument to be made partial reimbursement which was the point of this thread.

I don’t think the argument you are buying into actually exists. But have fun fighting the establishment

 

[throwaway1000000]

I don’t think the argument you are buying into actually exists. But have fun fighting the establishment

Read my first post lmao. I said no one is going to reimburse M4s but they should given we are not getting any education for the last 2 months of the semester.
You can either agree or disagree and move on with your life.

 

[Neopolymath]

When you realize that the only reason you give your school money is for them to say you are eligible to sit for boards and then say you are eligible to start residency is when you will be less stressed. That's all your school is good for and they are presumably still providing that to you and graduating you on time. You school is a gateway to the real dance. They are not preparing you. You are preparing you. Hell, you should pay them extra for them to graduate you early to not put up with online busy work.

 

[Splenda88]

Many schools have 12-18 month preclinical year, but it still take 4 years to graduate. Until LCME makes it mandatory for a 3-yr curriculum, all schools with take advantage of the extra year.

 

[throwaway1000000]

When you realize that the only reason you give your school money is for them to say you are eligible to sit for boards and then say you are eligible to start residency is when you will be less stressed. That's all your school is good for and they are presumably still providing that to you and graduating you on time. You school is a gateway to the real dance. They are not preparing you. You are preparing you. Hell, you should pay them extra for them to graduate you early to not put up with online busy work.

Hmm, no that is not how med schools are run. Sure, you can interpret and use med school in the manner you describe but that is not why they exist.
No, I am not going to pay them extra to graduate me early. I actually wouldn't mind at all if there was an online education curriculum for M4s to substitute rotations. That would justify my tuition.
When they are not providing the services that they are meant to provide, then reimbursement is a potential thing to be looked at.

 

[throwaway1000000]

Many schools have 12-18 month preclinical year, but it still take 4 years to graduate. Until LCME makes it mandatory for a 3-yr curriculum, all schools with take advantage of the extra year.

for sure agree with you why med school take advantage of the 4th yr. But I think the argument is getting convoluted in this thread. 4 yr vs 3 yr med school is a different argument.
I am just saying if the last 2 rotations are cancelled and no online curriculum is in place for M4s, then M4s should get some of their tuition back.

 

[Neopolymath]

Hmm, no that is not how med schools are run. Sure, you can interpret and use med school in the manner you describe but that is not why they exist.
No, I am not going to pay them extra to graduate me early. I actually wouldn't mind at all if there was an online education curriculum for M4s to substitute rotations. That would justify my tuition.
When they are not providing the services that they are meant to provide, then reimbursement is a potential thing to be looked at.

They are providing it. I outlined it in my post. You can disagree but the reality is that the school bill you pay is just an expensive permission slip to take USMLE and submit ERAS. Don't know how you made it to 4th year not figuring this out.

Edit: Besides the fees are an amortization of the total price. You just happen to think you are paying as you go per semester of product. Truly, it costs $xxx,xxx dollars to graduate. They don't care if you didn't get that 5 minutes of epidemiology 1st year because of a snow storm. Did you request money back then?

 

[Chibucks15]

They are providing it. I outlined it in my post. You can disagree but the reality is that the school bill you pay is just an expensive permission slip to take USMLE and submit ERAS. Don't know how you made it to 4th year not figuring this out.

He/she was too busy gunning hard and “learning” on every rotation. Never taking a day off giving 110%

 

[throwaway1000000]

They are providing it. I outlined it in my post. You can disagree but the reality is that the school bill you pay is just an expensive permission slip to take USMLE and submit ERAS. Don't know how you made it to 4th year not figuring this out.

I am not sure how you made it to medical school without knowing how to read.

Regardless of what you think of the usefulness of medical school education, I am paying them to provide me with education. Someone could use that education or they could outside resources to learn. That is irrelevant.
What is relevant here is they are not providing any education for the last 2 months, graduating students early yet collecting full tuition.

 

[throwaway1000000]

He/she was too busy gunning hard and “learning” on every rotation. Never taking a day off giving 110%

I was actually. I had rotations scheduled right up until graduation. I am paying for it, I want to make use of it.

 

[Neopolymath]

He/she was too busy gunning hard and “learning” on every rotation. Never taking a day off giving 110%

Complaining in 4th year that the resident had the audacity to let him out at 1PM instead of taking the admission at 5:30 for his team LOL.

 

[throwaway1000000]

Complaining in 4th year that the resident had the audacity to let him out at 1PM instead of taking the admission at 5:30 for his team LOL.

I think a bigger LOL is paying 25k per semester in 4th year and using that time to relax at home or travel.

 

[Neopolymath]

I think a bigger LOL is paying 25k per semester in 4th year and using that time to relax at home or travel.

I agree with you on this, by the way.

 

[radsisrad]

Let's be honest: the money you shell out for med school is basically for the MD. Real training is in residency.

 

[Splenda88]

Why should someone pay for a product that they are not using?

 

[Splenda88]

Let's be honest: the money you shell out for med school is basically for the MD. Real training is in residency.

Well, I would not go that far because you learn something during MS2/MS3. It's pass due for med school curriculum to be 1+2 yr or 18 months+ 18 months.

 

[Laradd]

I think it really depends on the institution on how they handle this kind of situation. Some may agree, some may not.