COVID19 Student Loans Crisis to balloon to $2T+ by 2022

Cold Front

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Dental school debt is riding a much bigger and part of the national student loans crisis wave, with 12 million+ borrowers currently behind on their payments.

Meanwhile, the system needs more borrowers than ever during the current pandemic, which is expected to last through next year. The international students revenues are down, so the schools have to make up their bottom line losses from US students. Yes, the government is still issuing blank checks to all students to go to any school - no matter the cost.

The current high unemployment rate is expected to remain elevated through 2022 - meaning more future student loan defaults.

Future Pre-Dents, beware.

 
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Unfortunately, I think the numbers of applicants( for all fields) will still increase, as education is typically used as a hedge against recession.
 
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Big Time Hoosier

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The individual they highlight still owes $75,000 after nearly a decade for her acting degree. Lots of bad decisions have taken her to this point. I guess this is what one should expect when people spend tens of thousands of dollars to “discover themselves” in college.

Big Hoss
 
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Cold Front

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The individual they highlight still owes $75,000 after nearly a decade for her acting degree. Lots of bad decisions have taken her to this point. I guess this is what one should expect when people spend tens of thousands of dollars to “discover themselves” in college.

Big Hoss

Parents who were burnt by “discover yourself” debt are not going to be encouraging their future kids to repeat the same mistake.

I also think, because of 75% of Americans don’t have a college degree, is partly why the student loan crisis is still not drawing the much needed national attention. If it affected 70-80% of the country, we would have seen a major federal student loan reforms. Almost similar to covid19 precaution guidelines, not enough people are complying because they don’t know someone who is/was hospitalized. That’s why I think big important national issues are ignored until - well, Exhibit A: George Floyd.
 
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fermi555

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Our entire higher education system is a complete mess.
 
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"Nelnet, which is one of the Department’s major contractors (along with Great Lakes, Navient, and FedLoan Servicing) released a scathing statement after being denied a new contract with the Department of Education, stating that they are “shocked” that “two of the highest rated servicers” (Nelnet and Great Lakes) will “not be considered by the Department for this contract. We are frustrated and disappointed by this decision and the lack of transparency in the process.”

Betsy Devos adds another barrier to overcome

 

Cold Front

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Our entire higher education system is a complete mess.

Among other things; healthcare, infrastructure, social security, etc. The next decade will be an interesting decade to say the least.

I predict there will be more dental schools, but the number of applicants will not be much higher than today’s. It will be much much easier to get into most dental schools, and the selling point will be that the US population will increase by 30 million between now and by 2030, so we need more dentists!. So at least 5 more schools will open over the next decade; UT El Paso will be the first to open next year, the rest will open in the Sun Belt states - Florida, Nevada, and the likes.
 
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Cold Front

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Heroes act will never pass as a result of the many unnecessary and irrelevant demands placed in the bill.

The senate and the president have to pass most of the items in the Heroes act, or in 100 days - the voters will be replace them with people who will.

20 million Americans are on continous weekly unemployment. People who graduated this year are entering one of the worst job markets in the history of this country. Covid19 is spiking and preventing employers from hiring people due to state mandates. The least the senate and president can do is to bail people out for few more months, and let people to continue to spend that bailout money as consumers to help the economy going. If that doesn’t happen... well, there will be an ocean of humanity that will remind the government who’s really in charge in this country.
 
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sobertiger

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Unfortunately, I think the numbers of applicants( for all fields) will still increase, as education is typically used as a hedge against recession.
Actually, the number of applicants has been decreasing.
 
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Actually, the number of applicants has been decreasing.
Yeah, you're right, I didn't expect that. I knew pharmacy and optometry have had big decreases in the applicant/matriculant ratio over the past decade. I think PhD programs will see more applicants though, as there was a spike during the last recession. Seems like MD schools are the only ones able to maintain/increase competitiveness over time.

Anecdotally, most of the people my age that I know that didn't become professionals/post-grad education are working gig type jobs regardless of whether or not they got a bachelor's. It seems like you're either healthcare/finance/tech, or working for uber/bartending. I get the whole bashing on communications/acting degrees thing, but from a job prospect standpoint a BS in bio doesn't get you much either- lab tech or quality control for 30-40k a year ain't much better than working for starbucks.
 
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MandalorianDMD

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Among other things; healthcare, infrastructure, social security, etc. The next decade will be an interesting decade to say the least.

I predict there will be more dental schools, but the number of applicants will not be much higher than today’s. It will be much much easier to get into most dental schools, and the selling point will be that the US population will increase by 30 million between now and by 2030, so we need more dentists!. So at least 5 more schools will open over the next decade; UT El Paso will be the first to open next year, the rest will open in the Sun Belt states - Florida, Nevada, and the likes.

There is a lot of hoops you have to jump through to open professional schools. I get you just based it on your feelings. That’s fine. I don’t agree we will see a new school every 2 years as you claim from now to 2030.
 
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Yeah, you're right, I didn't expect that. I knew pharmacy and optometry have had big decreases in the applicant/matriculant ratio over the past decade. I think PhD programs will see more applicants though, as there was a spike during the last recession. Seems like MD schools are the only ones able to maintain/increase competitiveness over time.

Anecdotally, most of the people my age that I know that didn't become professionals/post-grad education are working gig type jobs regardless of whether or not they got a bachelor's. It seems like you're either healthcare/finance/tech, or working for uber/bartending. I get the whole bashing on communications/acting degrees thing, but from a job prospect standpoint a BS in bio doesn't get you much either- lab tech or quality control for 30-40k a year ain't much better than working for starbucks.

I agree. PhD was a bandaid for many. Can’t get a job or decent paying job and no real prospects and getting into a PhD program isn’t that difficult. You either more loans or you find one to give you a small stipend.
 

MandalorianDMD

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The individual they highlight still owes $75,000 after nearly a decade for her acting degree. Lots of bad decisions have taken her to this point. I guess this is what one should expect when people spend tens of thousands of dollars to “discover themselves” in college.

Big Hoss

I’ve been graduated from undergrad for a while now and I still find myself hearing of a new degree I never knew existed before. And I wonder why does it exist.
 

Cold Front

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There is a lot of hoops you have to jump through to open professional schools. I get you just based it on your feelings. That’s fine. I don’t agree we will see a new school every 2 years as you claim from now to 2030.

People said that in 2010, and a new school opened every 2 yrs since. Either that, or dental therapists will get full green light in every state.
 
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MandalorianDMD

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People said that in 2010, and a new school opened every 2 yrs since. Either that, or dental therapists will get full green light in every state.

Can you provide the link or something? I tried to google a list of dental schools and their openings. Would like to see what school was made in 2012, 2014, 2016, 2018, 2020.

Edit: I found info, it’s 8 new schools. You weren’t far off by saying 10. It’s certainly not every 2 years. I get the fear that we will become like other professions but I don’t think it’ll happen.

Touro College of Dental Medicine at New York Medical College (NYMC) in Hawthorne, NY was approved for initial accreditation in February 2016 and enrolled its first class in Summer 2016.

A.T. Still University-Missouri School of Dentistry and Oral Health in Kirksville, MO was approved for initial accreditation in August 2013 and enrolled its first class in Fall 2013.

University of New England in Portland, ME was approved for initial accreditation in August 2012 and enrolled its first class in Fall 2013.

University of Utah in Salt Lake City was approved for initial accreditation in August 2012 and enrolled its first class in Fall 2013.

Roseman University of Health Sciences in South Jordan, UT was approved for initial accreditation in August 2011 and enrolled its first class in Fall 2011.

Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine (LECOM) in Bradenton, FL was approved for initial accreditation in February 2011 and enrolled its first class in Summer 2012.

Eastern Carolina University in Greenville, NC was approved for initial accreditation in February 2011 and enrolled its first class in Fall 2011.

Midwestern University-Illinois in Downers Grove, IL was approved for initial accreditation in August 2010 and enrolled its first class in Fall 2011.
 
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Can you provide the link or something? I tried to google a list of dental schools and their openings. Would like to see what school was made in 2012, 2014, 2016, 2018, 2020.

Edit: I found info, it’s 8 new schools. You weren’t far off by saying 10. It’s certainly not every 2 years. I get the fear that we will become like other professions but I don’t think it’ll happen.

Touro College of Dental Medicine at New York Medical College (NYMC) in Hawthorne, NY was approved for initial accreditation in February 2016 and enrolled its first class in Summer 2016.

A.T. Still University-Missouri School of Dentistry and Oral Health in Kirksville, MO was approved for initial accreditation in August 2013 and enrolled its first class in Fall 2013.

University of New England in Portland, ME was approved for initial accreditation in August 2012 and enrolled its first class in Fall 2013.

University of Utah in Salt Lake City was approved for initial accreditation in August 2012 and enrolled its first class in Fall 2013.

Roseman University of Health Sciences in South Jordan, UT was approved for initial accreditation in August 2011 and enrolled its first class in Fall 2011.

Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine (LECOM) in Bradenton, FL was approved for initial accreditation in February 2011 and enrolled its first class in Summer 2012.

Eastern Carolina University in Greenville, NC was approved for initial accreditation in February 2011 and enrolled its first class in Fall 2011.

Midwestern University-Illinois in Downers Grove, IL was approved for initial accreditation in August 2010 and enrolled its first class in Fall 2011.

Two more taking apps soon:
 

MandalorianDMD

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Two more taking apps soon:

Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center El Paso, Woody L. Hunt School of Dental Medicine was approved for initial accreditation in January 2020, and will enroll its first class in July 2021.

Seems the same or similar for California.

So those will fall into the 2020-2030 decade.
 
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from a job prospect standpoint a BS in bio doesn't get you much either- lab tech or quality control for 30-40k a year ain't much better than working for starbucks.
As a former lab tech/quality control guy making 30-40k/year with a BS in Chemistry, I can confirm this.
 
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MandalorianDMD

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Glad your search went well and confirmed about 10 schools opened within the last decade.

Now... let’s talk in 10 years and confirm the next 10 schools. There’s a lot of money to be made from opening new schools.

Glad you enjoy commenting back with “about 10 schools” just to fit your agenda. It’s a false statement. You should consider working for the government processing coronavirus data. You’d do well.
 

Cold Front

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Glad you enjoy commenting back with “about 10 schools” just to fit your agenda. It’s a false statement. You should consider working for the government processing coronavirus data. You’d do well.

You won’t let this go? Still complaining about 8 schools vs 10 schools? Are you annoyed when other people inform you something you didn’t know?

[youtube]
 
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MandalorianDMD

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You won’t let this go? Still complaining about 8 schools vs 10 schools? Are you annoyed when other people inform you something you didn’t know?

[youtube]

I’m not annoyed. I gave everyone an exact number and you are just stoking fires and fear-mongering. You’re pretty childish. I’m sorry if the blunt truth upsets you. I’m sure you’ll want the last say so go ahead with some remark and you’ll be satisfied knowing I won’t respond anymore. Have a nice day.
 

Cold Front

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I’m not annoyed. I gave everyone an exact number and you are just stoking fires and fear-mongering. You’re pretty childish. I’m sorry if the blunt truth upsets you. I’m sure you’ll want the last say so go ahead with some remark and you’ll be satisfied knowing I won’t respond anymore. Have a nice day.

You sir, are still annoyed. It’s ok.

I do not fear monger. Just like anyone else who posts, I have the right to have a perspective of a topic; in dental schools and the profession in general. You don’t have to believe me. Let’s have this conversation in 5 years and see what has changed in the dental profession, using data from the ADA and real world economy.

Nothing is worse than a moment during a discussion or a debate when you realize you were wrong. That’s the moment when you gain something you didn’t know. You came to this topic thinking not that many new dental schools opened last decade, and when I shared some relevant facts with you, instead of accepting the new information or expanding on the discussion, you turned the topic about me. It’s the whole point of this website, you came to SDN to find new information not to dismiss people from a different point of view, no? You took the information/discussion so personally - albeit I said it in a humorous way, you left annoyed. The whole thing is worthy of a meme.

Welcome to the real world.
 
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At what point does technology disrupt the higher education industry? No one needs to go to a campus to learn except for a few hrs of lab. The cost of classes, or admitting additional students, drops to zero in this new digital paradigm. Education is actually nearly free to the individual, especially when you look at projects like wiki or the free online course offerings by world class institutions (although not for credit). The system we have today is rent seeking. That's the sad truth: most jobs are fake and most of the industries that comprise our economy are rent seeking.
 
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Cold Front

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At what point does technology disrupt the higher education industry? No one needs to go to a campus to learn except for a few hrs of lab. The cost of classes, or admitting additional students, drops to zero in this new digital paradigm. Education is actually nearly free to the individual, especially when you look at projects like wiki or the free online course offerings by world class institutions (although not for credit). The system we have today is rent seeking. That's the sad truth: most jobs are fake and most of the industries that comprise our economy are rent seeking.

Yes. A college degree (or a dental degree) is no guarantee of a good life, but is sold as a guarantee of a good life at a high cost.

In many way, students (and their families) don’t primarily use cost-benefit analysis to make good decisions about their lives. But everyone wants to be happy, which is part of the problem that leads everyone into bad financial decisions. Many believe that education is positively linked to happiness, but we are seeing that to be less likely and true every year - as more students in America graduate with higher and higher student loans with no proportionally greater reward waiting for them on the other side/the labor market. It almost feels like doubling down on student debt to make the same income every decade for the majority. To make $150k/yr in dentistry as a new grad today means going into $400-500k debt, that same level of income required $200-250k in student loans a decade ago.

It is easy to imagine how $3-4,000 per month (the average dental student-loan payment) could dampen one’s spirits even in service of a career they love, let alone one they don’t. So as you said, most jobs are fake, the education system is driven by perceptions and feelings that doesn’t usually translate to the expectations most people invested energy, time and money in. Dental education in some ways is tilting in that direction with outrageously high tuitions and fees.

It would be interesting to see what percentage of pre-dents were happy to be accepted to a dental school versus 5-10 yrs as dentists after dental school?
 

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I checked my state schools tuition for the D1s and it comes out to 400k without counting interest by the time they graduate. Scary as ****.
 
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Cold Front

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I checked my state schools tuition for the D1s and it comes out to 400k without counting interest by the time they graduate. Scary as ****.

Walmart announced they will open 6 dental clinics in Georgia within the next 100 days, and is expanding to Florida in 6 months. Imagine young and future new dentists with $400-500k+ student loans working at Walmart... possibly at $300/day or less. This is just another bad symptom for the direction dentistry is heading.

Someone will probably quote this post and criticize me for spreading doom and gloom conspiracy, but I will just leave the links here.




 
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rsk384

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You sir, are still annoyed. It’s ok.

I do not fear monger. Just like anyone else who posts, I have the right to have a perspective of a topic; in dental schools and the profession in general. You don’t have to believe me. Let’s have this conversation in 5 years and see what has changed in the dental profession, using data from the ADA and real world economy.

Nothing is worse than a moment during a discussion or a debate when you realize you were wrong. That’s the moment when you gain something you didn’t know. You came to this topic thinking not that many new dental schools opened last decade, and when I shared some relevant facts with you, instead of accepting the new information or expanding on the discussion, you turned the topic about me. It’s the whole point of this website, you came to SDN to find new information not to dismiss people from a different point of view, no? You took the information/discussion so personally - albeit I said it in a humorous way, you left annoyed. The whole thing is worthy of a meme.

Welcome to the real world.
ColdFront, why are so many seemingly butt-hurt (maybe it's deserved, I doubt it though haaha) and not even arguing with you in a sensible way. Any opposing claims have been petty and not substantial at all. Like, if you make that comment on YouTube or twitter, you'd be flamed.it's been like 3 in a week. Leave their wives alone, my man! jk jk
 
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golfdmd

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Walmart announced they will open 6 dental clinics in Georgia within the next 100 days, and is expanding to Florida in 6 months. Imagine young and future new dentists with $400-500k+ student loans working at Walmart... possibly at $300/day or less. This is just another bad symptom for the direction dentistry is heading.

Someone will probably quote this post and criticize me for spreading doom and gloom conspiracy, but I will just leave the links here.




Where are you getting $300/day from? Walmart optometrists make competitive salaries so I don’t see why dentists would be different.
 

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The point Cold Front is making is that the profession is on a downhill and it will continue to do so until it reaches an equilibrium. These are in no way his opinions or beliefs, these are just numbers pertaining to what's happening to the field.

The details are less important when the big picture is clear in that salaries will go down while student debt will go up, a great business opportunity for corporates.
 
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golfdmd

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The point Cold Front is making is that the profession is on a downhill and it will continue to do so until it reaches an equilibrium. These are in no way his opinions or beliefs, these are just numbers pertaining to what's happening to the field.

The details are less important when the big picture is clear in that salaries will go down while student debt will go up, a great business opportunity for corporates.
I’m not disputing the point he’s trying to make but baselessly suggesting they’ll be making an absurdly low amount is probably why people accuse him of spreading doom and gloom lmao
 

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When $4-500/day is not out of the blue in saturated cities, I wouldn’t say $300 is absurdly low. As implied, $300 is just a hypothesis.
 
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wannagiveup

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Where are you getting $300/day from? Walmart optometrists make competitive salaries so I don’t see why dentists would be different.
Supposedly Walmart general dentists make 1k+/day (very small sample size fyi) working five days a week. Last I heard they are testing it out in GA and AR, and the clinic itself is detached from their store.
 
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Cold Front

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Where are you getting $300/day from? Walmart optometrists make competitive salaries so I don’t see why dentists would be different.

Dentistry is not optometry, clinically nor as a business model.

Walmart dental exams + xrays are $25. Is the dentist paid a minimum wage and is also expected to take the x-rays or is this a 2 minute exam with “You can smile and bite, so you must be fine!”?. Is that enough time and compensation to properly diagnose a patient?

Walmart is doing this to provide access at super low cost, so they will pay dentists, staff and supplies inline or within that economic model. There are dentists willing to work for less; they already do at saturated cities and dental schools. So far, Walmart dental offices are in big urban cities; Dallas, Atlanta, etc.

Walmart is not going to kill dentistry, but they are just another example of the trend - in which dentistry is being transitioned out as a profession and into a service dentistry.

 

Cold Front

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Supposedly Walmart general dentists make 1k+/day (very small sample size fyi) working five days a week. Last I heard they are testing it out in GA and AR, and the clinic itself is detached from their store.

Give them a call to confirm if they pay $1k/day. They are hiring in GA, there is an active listing for a “dentist” on their website.

 
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I wish I were born 15 years earlier tbh

Schools were cheaper, I woulda invested all my money into the stock market after it bottomed out, would probably be set for life by now, and I wouldn't have to worry about this Walmart dentistry bullcrap lmao

feelsbadman
 
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rsk384

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I wish I were born 15 years earlier tbh

Schools were cheaper, I woulda invested all my money into the stock market after it bottomed out, would probably be set for life by now, and I wouldn't have to worry about this Walmart dentistry bullcrap lmao

feelsbadman
hang in there bud, a lot of folk feel that way. But yea, you make a point. if you were a boomer having all that money in a roth ira target the spd index, the most vanilla strategy but it is totally viable and watch that sexy self compound. the growth back up till 08 was unreal. I guess it was 'unreal' (not in existence) as the defaults rate on sub-prime loans caused the whole thing down.
 
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Cold Front

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I wish I were born 15 years earlier tbh

Schools were cheaper, I woulda invested all my money into the stock market after it bottomed out, would probably be set for life by now, and I wouldn't have to worry about this Walmart dentistry bullcrap lmao

feelsbadman

There is still a good chance (and will be for a while) to buy or open a new dental practice, but the ROI on it has become complicated due to insurance reimbursements and deep economic recessions.

Practice Ownership + Owning Stocks + Real Estate Ownership is the best position a dentist can be if he/she works very hard and plans ahead. It can be done in less than 10 years and still have decades of life left to enjoy it. Unfortunately, it’s a high stakes and high risk path, and the majority of young and new dentists who carry high student loans would not consider it.
 
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Thanks for the vote of confidence guys.

Yeah the good thing is I won't be graduating with tons of debt so that should free up opportunities like practice ownership. It's my top reason I chose dentistry.

Unfortunately knowing my luck, the moment I graduate this insane bull run will be over and we'll be headed into an extended bear market. Etiher way, I'm gonna try and invest half of my post-tax income in RE and index funds. Building assets seems like the best way to protect myself from the impact of 'walmart dentistry'
 
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