Crazy Hypothetical (Army National Guard)

[aaronrodgers]

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I have a crazy idea that I would like for SDN to shoot down. I’m currently a 23 year old MS1 at a CA public school and I have a hypothetical proposition:

Step 1: Join CA Army National Guard with no federal incentives as an MS1

Step 2: Finish all 8 year National Guard MOS after the end of a typical 4 year residency

Step 3: Remain in ARNG and submit packet for army warrant officer candidate school and then warrant officer flight training (requires 7 year service in National Guard which I would have racked up after the 8 years MOS spent in med school and residency)

Step 4: Become a part-time National Guard pilot flying either chinook/Apache/Blackhawk (takes 2 years of full time training, which isn’t too bad in terms of clinical skills regression?)

I’m prepared to be roasted for this crazy idea.

 

[colbgw02]

What is this MOS and/or guard unit that's going to permit you to drill through both medical school and residency?

 

[aaronrodgers]

What is this MOS and/or guard unit that's going to permit you to drill through both medical school and residency?

People do ARNG and ANG as a med student/resident. There are even federal incentives such as MDSSP and STRAP for med students and residents, respectively. The commitment is a weekend per month plus two weeks annual training per year with the unit. There are hardships with answering to two separate entities but it’s managable.

 

[colbgw02]

People do ARNG and ANG as a med student/resident. There are even federal incentives such as MDSSP and STRAP for med students and residents, respectively. The commitment is a weekend per month plus two weeks annual training per year with the unit. There are hardships with answering to two separate entities but it’s managable.

Right...but in those cases there is a formal agreement that recognizes you as a medical student and then a physician, so there is an understanding that there will be conflicts and a history of being accommodating. You described doing it without those incentives, right? So how does that work? Is your CO going to GAF if you can't drill that weekend because you're on call? Maybe this is a well-established thing...doing it without being part of the programs, that is?

 

[aaronrodgers]

Right...but in those cases there is a formal agreement that recognizes you as a medical student and then a physician, so there is an understanding that there will be conflicts and a history of being accommodating. You described doing it without those incentives, right? So how does that work? Is your CO going to GAF if you can't drill that weekend because you're on call? Maybe this is a well-established thing...doing it without being part of the programs, that is?

Mmm as I understand it (based on previous sdn mil med threads dated 2014-2017) you are still designated as a medical student regardless of whether or not you accept federal incentives. Although, I’m not worried discussing whether or not being in ARNG is feasible throughout medical student / residency. Many others on SDN have done so and the consensus seems to be this is actually the best route career wise to serve in the military, since one will do civilian match, civilian residency, and civilian job/pay!

 

[colbgw02]

Mmm as I understand it (based on previous sdn mil med threads dated 2014-2017) you are still designated as a medical student regardless of whether or not you accept federal incentives. Although, I’m not worried discussing whether or not being in ARNG is feasible throughout medical student / residency. Many others on SDN have done so and the consensus seems to be this is actually the best route career wise to serve in the military, since one will do civilian match, civilian residency, and civilian job/pay!

Okay, but if you're designated as a medical student/resident, then are you not expected to serve as a medical corps officer? Because that's not the scenario that you proposed. It's not surprising to me that the military, national guard or otherwise, is willing to give some leeway to a physician in training, but I would think that's because they're expecting to get a practicing physician out of it - not an Apache pilot.

Honestly, I don't know a lot about this. It just seems like you're taking several things that are similar, but not identical, to what you want and extrapolating what has happened in those situations to your proposed scenario. I'm not convinced that's how it would work.

 

[aaronrodgers]

Okay, but if you're designated as a medical student/resident, then are you not expected to serve as a medical corps officer? Because that's not the scenario that you proposed. It's not surprising to me that the military, national guard or otherwise, is willing to give some leeway to a physician in training, but I would think that's because they're expecting to get a practicing physician out of it - not an Apache pilot.

Honestly, I don't know a lot about this. It just seems like you're taking several things that are similar, but not identical, to what you want and extrapolating what has happened in those situations to your proposed scenario. I'm not convinced that's how it would work.

Hey, thanks for being devils advocate nonetheless. I’m hoping someone in the know about the National Guard side could comment too! This thread might just die tbh.

I’d imagine that since the 8 year MOS (6 years drilling + 2 IRR) would be completed by end of residency, I’m essentially free from the Guard and could resign a contract as a warrant officer to fly helicopters instead of continuing in the medical Corp, at this point I would have had the 7 years of Guard service required to enter flight school.

 

[deleted480308]

Hey, thanks for being devils advocate nonetheless. I’m hoping someone in the know about the National Guard side could comment too! This thread might just die tbh.

I’d imagine that since the 8 year MOS (6 years drilling + 2 IRR) would be completed by end of residency, I’m essentially free from the Guard and could resign a contract as a warrant officer to fly helicopters instead of continuing in the medical Corp, at this point I would have had the 7 years of Guard service required to enter flight school.

have you checked the maximum age for flight slots in the army?

 

[aaronrodgers]

have you checked the maximum age for flight slots in the army?

33 by the time the board convenes. I would be 31 by the end of 7-8 years.

 

[Saddleshoes]

I have a crazy idea that I would like for SDN to shoot down. I’m currently a 23 year old MS1 at a CA public school and I have a hypothetical proposition:

Step 1: Join CA Army National Guard with no federal incentives as an MS1

Step 2: Finish all 8 year National Guard MOS after the end of a typical 4 year residency

Step 3: Remain in ARNG and submit packet for army warrant officer candidate school and then warrant officer flight training (requires 7 year service in National Guard which I would have racked up after the 8 years MOS spent in med school and residency)

Step 4: Become a part-time National Guard pilot flying either chinook/Apache/Blackhawk (takes 2 years of full time training, which isn’t too bad in terms of clinical skills regression?)

I’m prepared to be roasted for this crazy idea.

I have seen something like this done in the Air National Guard (ANG).
Step 1: If you are a college grad and play your cards right, you can be brought in as an officer i.e. 2nd Lieutenant. In my unit we put these bright young people into a medical administration role. (A very good learning experience for a doctor to be!)
Step 2: My ANG unit would arrange for these guys to get annual training that would count for academic credit at the med school.
AS SOON as these people graduated med school we promoted them to Captain and put them to work doing minor medical work like exams.
At this point one might consider coming over the active side of the service and doing ones residency with Uncle Sam paying the way.
Step 3: Forget Army Warrant Officer! In the ANG you are a Captain already! You would be encourage to become a Air Force Flight Surgeon.
Most Flight Surgeons are not pilots but they can fly a lot. (And they get flight pay!)
Step 4: It is possible to become a doctor first and then a pilot in the ANG but I never met one.

Good Luck with you quest.

 

[deleted480308]

I have seen something like this done in the Air National Guard (ANG).
Step 1: If you are a college grad and play your cards right, you can be brought in as an officer i.e. 2nd Lieutenant. In my unit we put these bright young people into a medical administration role. (A very good learning experience for a doctor to be!)
Step 2: My ANG unit would arrange for these guys to get annual training that would count for academic credit at the med school.
AS SOON as these people graduated med school we promoted them to Captain and put them to work doing minor medical work like exams.
At this point one might consider coming over the active side of the service and doing ones residency with Uncle Sam paying the way.
Step 3: Forget Army Warrant Officer! In the ANG you are a Captain already! You would be encourage to become a Air Force Flight Surgeon.
Most Flight Surgeons are not pilots but they can fly a lot. (And they get flight pay!)
Step 4: It is possible to become a doctor first and then a pilot in the ANG but I never met one.

Good Luck with you quest.

That path does not sound protected from deployment during school

 

[IlDestriero]

2 years of zero clinical activity, especially right after training when the most refining and seems to occur could potentially be fatal to a career. Be careful with that plan.
Doing a fellowship after could potentially help, but they might not be so hot to give you a good competitive fellowship after 2 years out of the hospital either.

 

[DeadCactus]

The main issues have been touched on. Yes, your plan is feasible but reality will likely get in the way. You can join as a medical student and would be relatively protected from deployment for multiple reasons I don't want to rehash. There are plenty of threads on joining the Guard as a medical student.

In terms of flight school, your age and outside obligations may hurt you as a candidate but you can certainly apply. Warrant vs Officer is a separate discussion, going the officer route as a flight surgeon to pilot is likely the path of least resistance. Taking the time off for flight training as a physicians is both detrimental to clinical practice and a huge financial sacrifice on the order of hundreds of thousands of dollars. The increased obligation to drill and fly will be a financial burden and time sink. Like medicine, being a military pilot can be over glamorized. Talk to some actual Guard pilots, make sure it's what you think you want. The reality is that for most people, the civilian world offers more opportunities for what they want. Becoming an Apache pilot sounds like fun in your early 20's. In your early 30's, you realize that means passing up on a stable job, stable family life, and the money to buy your own aircraft, get as much flight training as you want, and spend your time flying to beautiful locations for family vacations on your own schedule.

 

[Darth Doc]

People do ARNG and ANG as a med student/resident. There are even federal incentives such as MDSSP and STRAP for med students and residents, respectively. The commitment is a weekend per month plus two weeks annual training per year with the unit. There are hardships with answering to two separate entities but it’s managable.

I was in the ARNG during medical school. I kept my physician assistant credentials and was useful to my medical unit during medical school. Now I'm in residency and have to focus here, and thankfully my unit is good with that. This was necessary for me, especially in my second year of medical school since every drill weekend that year happened the weekend before an exam.

Any flexibility with drill time is unit dependent. Some situations are great. Some are horrible. It really depends on your unit, how much they like you, and how often they've worked with medical students and residents in the past and understand the necessary paperwork. Also, it depends on what you know and can back up with paperwork (or who you know who can help you).

Doing an-in-and-out to be a pilot sounds unlikely. Why would the military spend $11 million on you, then let you retire? Answer... they won't. You'll earn a service obligation by becoming a pilot. ($11 million is the average cost for the military to produce a pilot) You'll start a 6 year service obligation as a pilot AFTER completing the 2 years of training.

Why would you go through medical school, then not do anything with it to be a pilot for 8 years? If you want to be a pilot that badly, quit medical school and be a pilot.

If you just want to fly around in a Blackhawk, be a ARNG flight surgeon. If you want to be both, join the Navy (active duty). Their flight surgeons are required to learn to fly.

 

[Darth Doc]

Also, hope you like swimming. As a flight surgeon, you'll do dunker training once. As a pilot you'd do it every 4 years. 6 mandatory (minimum) rotations through it. two with blinders on. more rotations if you mess one up. The flight surgeon swim test is much easier than the pilot requirement. To be fair, pilots are MUCH more likely to need to ditch a crashed helicopter in water than a flight surgeon simply because they're in them more.

You'd also have to do SERE Level C at least once. I've heard there are mandatory refresher courses, but I haven't seen the regulation for that.

Also as my first First Sergeant told me, before I joined.... "Once you're in, the needs of the Army come first." Keep that in mind before you sign a contract. You might have great plans to be a pilot, but if the Army doesn't think you're the best candidate, you'll have done all of that for nothing.

 

[aaronrodgers]

It seems like the biggest reality check is the post-residency clinical skills regression. I certainly wouldn’t want to be an incompetent physician relative to my peers. I can’t predict what my priorities will be when I’m in my 30s and so I certainly appreciate the wisdom and words of caution. I’m going to network with some Army Guard pilots in my area, luckily I know some folks by only 1-2 degrees of separation.

To clarify, I wouldn’t plan to get pilot training and jump ship, that’s impossible. I’m also scrounging around National Guard aviation forums online to read about how those already serving/drilling manage their civilian careers and guard duties. Guard pilots, like any other guards, are members of the military registered militia and so by definition are part time soldiers with civilian careers. I just want to do the same...but I recognize that a fulfilling civilian medical career will be a very very tough accomplishment alongside being in the military. That’s the theme of milmed since ever, so nothing new I guess.

Everyone’s posts are greatly appreciated.

 

[Darth Doc]

Guard pilots, like any other guards, are members of the military registered militia and so by definition are part time soldiers with civilian careers. I just want to do the same...but I recognize that a fulfilling civilian medical career will be a very very tough accomplishment alongside being in the military. That’s the theme of milmed since ever, so nothing new I guess.

A large obstacle no one's mentioned yet is the large civilian obligation of being a MD vs the large military obligation of being a pilot. Pilots have flight time minimums that require more hours than others in the guard to maintain standard. MDs often are allowed to skip drills or AT due to career requirements (there is a yearly minimum). Combining those two careers would me more challenging than even the usual guard member.

 

[deleted480308]

A large obstacle no one's mentioned yet is the large civilian obligation of being a MD vs the large military obligation of being a pilot. Pilots have flight time minimums that require more hours than others in the guard to maintain standard. MDs often are allowed to skip drills or AT due to career requirements (there is a yearly minimum). Combining those two careers would me more challenging than even the usual guard member.

Docs also have policy to only be deployed 3-4months, pilots have no such thing and go the whole year or more

Imagine your annual salary cutting in half for a year while your skills rot

 

[Lee]

FWIW - In the Army I’ve seen pilots become doctors, but never seen it done the other way.


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