CRNA impact on job market

[HueySmith]

Has anyone here actually been fired and was replaced by a CRNA? Has anyone been struggling to find a job because the hospitals hire more CRNAs than anesthesiologists?

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[anbuitachi]

i don tknow of any particular individual but when a group that uses CRNA in high coverage model like 1:4, out compete a previous MD only group and replace them as the group for the hospital, you are effectively being laid off and getting replaced by CRNAs.

There are plenty of jobs if you dont care about location. It's about more than just FINDING a job. What the job is like also matters. sure you can find a q3 call job working 70 hrs a week making 200k but is that what you want. those struggling to find a job are those who want 1 location or a specific type of job. however if you think about it, if you want to work for XYZ hospital, and they have 20 CRNAs on staff... if those 20 CRNAs didn't exist, thered be several full time MD positions available and that couldve gone to you.
i was recently job searching and one of the hospital i liked wasn't hiring and they use some CRNAs. perhaps if they didn't use CRNAs there'd be positions open for MDs

 

[deleted171991]

Has anyone here actually been fired and was replaced by a CRNA? Has anyone been struggling to find a job because the hospitals hire more CRNAs than anesthesiologists?

It used to take 3-4 MDs to do what it now takes 1 MD and 3-4 CRNAs. So, hospitals now hire 1/3-1/4 of the number of MDs they would otherwise. At the same time, the number of anesthesiology residency and CRNA grads keeps increasing. Capisci?

 

[Mman]

It used to take 3-4 MDs to do what it now takes 1 MD and 3-4 CRNAs. So, hospitals now hire 1/3-1/4 of the number of MDs they would otherwise. At the same time, the number of anesthesiology residency and CRNA grads keeps increasing. Capisci?

the ACT model has been in use for longer than anybody here has been practicing. Is it more widespread than 30 years ago? I'm sure it is though I don't know exactly how much more so.

 

[deleted171991]

the ACT model has been in use for longer than anybody here has been practicing. Is it more widespread than 30 years ago? I'm sure it is though I don't know exactly how much more so.

There is a big difference between 1:2 and 1:4. It used to be mostly 1:2 for a VERY long time.

 

[Mman]

There is a big difference between 1:2 and 1:4. It used to be mostly 1:2 for a VERY long time.

where and when? I'm not old enough to have been working back then and nobody I know can remember that although that could be regional variation.


edit: and if people want to talk about future job markets, please keep in mind that the sheer number of procedures we are involved with (surgeries and other non-OR things) keeps going up every year. It's not like the US population is shrinking.

 

[btbam]

At my hospital it’s 1:2, high acuity peds though.

 

[anbuitachi]

where and when? I'm not old enough to have been working back then and nobody I know can remember that although that could be regional variation.


edit: and if people want to talk about future job markets, please keep in mind that the sheer number of procedures we are involved with (surgeries and other non-OR things) keeps going up every year. It's not like the US population is shrinking.

well thats why the # of CRNAs and anesthesiologists are going up as well.

 

[Mman]

well thats why the # of CRNAs and anesthesiologists are going up as well.

correct. I bring it up because increasing number of graduates does not necessarily equal more competition for jobs. We are in the midst of a large retirement of anesthesiologists over the next few years and when you combine an ever increasing need for our services the job market should remain at least stable over the next 5-10 years IMHO.

 

[deleted171991]

correct. I bring it up because increasing number of graduates does not necessarily equal more competition for jobs. We are in the midst of a large retirement of anesthesiologists over the next few years and when you combine an ever increasing need for our services the job market should remain at least stable over the next 5-10 years IMHO.

Something like a large retirement will prompt a renewed assault for CRNA independence, or for even more lax supervision. Mark my words.

 

[Mman]

Something like a large retirement will prompt a renewed assault for CRNA independence, or for even more lax supervision. Mark my words.

those things are on going and will be forever, they do not need to be renewed.

 

[coffeebythelake]

Something like a large retirement will prompt a renewed assault for CRNA independence, or for even more lax supervision. Mark my words.

push for CRNA independence in no way means CRNA competence
it just means they are able to lobby hard enough and swing enough money into legislator pockets to get what they want, patient safety be damned. for ego and for money. lying is not beneath them. the whole "nurse anesthesiologist" crap they've been pushing just goes to show they want to blur the lines. they want patients to be confused.

there is a wide variety of competencies as i'm sure you're aware: some great and contentious, some horrible and downright dangerous. the latter pull down the former.

i'm surprised for all the $$$ AANA and CRNAs have put to in their political fight, lying about their training hours, they never once thought about actually improving their training or creating a reasonable standard competency.

 

[jwk]

i'm surprised for all the $$$ AANA and CRNAs have put to in their political fight, lying about their training hours, they never once thought about actually improving their training or creating a reasonable standard competency.

LOVE THIS!

 

[GA8314]

where and when? I'm not old enough to have been working back then and nobody I know can remember that although that could be regional variation.


edit: and if people want to talk about future job markets, please keep in mind that the sheer number of procedures we are involved with (surgeries and other non-OR things) keeps going up every year. It's not like the US population is shrinking.

I agree with Mman. The boomer effect will bolster demand for the remainder of virtually everyone's careers on this forum. Demand will stay strong. How we pay for that is another issue, but demand will be there.

 

[GA8314]

those things are on going and will be forever, they do not need to be renewed.

Also agree. It's a never ending continuum. Sometimes it will heat up, and other times it may cool down, but it is ongoing. It will not end.

Keep up your skills, stay engaged in your hospital and PACs, and you will be fine. As fine as possible. There are never any guarantees.

Also, remember that the RATE of midlevel encroachment is much higher for other fields such as primary care etc.

The local GI group has 10 partners and 10 PA's. The urologists I know use PA's to do many office procedures.

Not the same, but I'm just saying that mid-level involvement is nothing new to us, but is much newer to many of our colleagues in other specialties. They have not felt the bite but probably will in time...

 

[<(^_^)>]

Also agree. It's a never ending continuum. Sometimes it will heat up, and other times it may cool down, but it is ongoing. It will not end.

Keep up your skills, stay engaged in your hospital and PACs, and you will be fine. As fine as possible. There are never any guarantees.

Also, remember that the RATE of midlevel encroachment is much higher for other fields such as primary care etc.

The local GI group has 10 partners and 10 PA's. The urologists I know use PA's to do many office procedures.

Not the same, but I'm just saying that mid-level involvement is nothing new to us, but is much newer to many of our colleagues in other specialties. They have not felt the bite but probably will in time...

Indeed. A majority of NPs graduated in the last 10 years. People don’t realize how INSANE NP growth has been. CRNA programs have lowered standards somewhat, but haven’t completely given up unlike NP schools which at this point are treating a high school biology poster as a doctorate and house md as distance learning. I’m exaggerating but there are programs that take you from absolute layman to NP in 2 years, much of that being online.

I would also say that CRNAs are starting to retire as well. Anesthesiologists aren’t the only people to grow old.

I think in the coming years demand will be strong regardless. However you also will see a worse pay mix as Medicare % increases...maybe to 100% if the more radical Democrats get their way.

 

[anbuitachi]

Imagine after the baby boomer getting old era is over. Demand will plummet . Everyone will be screwed

 

[nimbus]

Imagine after the baby boomer getting old era is over. Demand will plummet . Everyone will be screwed

I’ll be screwed because I’ll be dead.

 

[Mman]

Imagine after the baby boomer getting old era is over. Demand will plummet . Everyone will be screwed

US population overall and over age 65 are projected to keep climbing for far longer than anybody posting here will be practicing. By 2060, we will have twice as many Americans over age 65 as we do now.

 

[anbuitachi]

US population overall and over age 65 are projected to keep climbing for far longer than anybody posting here will be practicing. By 2060, we will have twice as many Americans over age 65 as we do now.

very different from the chart that was posted above by GA8314. According to that by 2030 we will have almost THREE times as many people over age 65 as we do now. thats a lot more than 2x by 2060

 

[Mman]

very different from the chart that was posted above by GA8314. According to that by 2030 we will have almost THREE times as many people over age 65 as we do now. thats a lot more than 2x by 2060

that other chart is only counting baby boomers, not total population over 65 which is different

 

[jwk]

I would also say that CRNAs are starting to retire as well. Anesthesiologists aren’t the only people to grow old.

There are still a fair number of certificate-only CRNAs out there, but the youngest are approaching 60, so most will be gone in the next 5-7 years.