CSPP Alliant San Diego

[diamondstar1]

Hi Psych

I was just wondering re Cspp Alliant SD, I noticed a thread from a couple years back, that buildings are full of asbestos, environmental hazard and that the school are potentially in a lot of debt re.

Anyone heard anything about this?

Thanks all!

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[Therapist4Chnge]

Every CSPP (& similar) program should be avoided…think of the asbestos as a more tangible reminder to look elsewhere.

 

[erg923]

The students who go/went there are in crushing debt. Who cares about the school, lol?

 

[smalltownpsych]

Only 30% of their students get any type of internship and 0% get an APA accredited internship. So not only do you get crushing debt, but your career options could be severely limited.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The students who go/went there are in crushing debt.

Some quick math, all of the data pulled right from their outcomes documentation. I'll be generous and say the student is able to get out in 4+1, even though their mean completion time is 5.8yrs:

Last posted tuition: $1061 per credit hour @ 120 credits to graduate: $127,320
Program Fees: $370 per yr @ 4yrs: $1,480
Est books/material: $2200 per yr @ 4yrs: $8,800

Total: $137,600…before ANY rent, living expenses, etc. Tuition increases were not factored in, nor was interest on the loans, or even hidden/other fees that can pop up during training. What fees you ask…well…$6,365 paid to the school for your intern year. If you do a half-time internship that cost jumps to $10,722. Then there is the minimum 40hr of personal therapy they require, which they estimate will cost $2,000-$3,000. The list goes on...
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Rent in San Diego: $1500/mon…and that is on the LOW side.
Utilities: $150/mon…which is low considering electric costs in CA are much higher than in other parts of the country
$1650/mon @4yrs: $79,200
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So at the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM, without counting compound interest, additional fees, food, gas, tuition increases, rent increases, low-balling utilities, etc….the cost to attend CSPP SD is AT LEAST: $216,800. Let that sink in…$216,800.
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*edit*

I did a quick calculation and realized the interest accrued on this amount would be significant, so I'm adding it now.

$216,800 spread over 4yr is $54,200/yr. Taking that figure @6.8% interest (which is low, considering private loans will be needed to cover $54k/yr) and compounding it over 5 yrs (4yr+1yr internship) yields an additional $56,873.47 in interest over the 5yr of deferment for schooling.

New Total: $273,673.47
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Payback on 30yr @ 6.8%: $1784.15/mon
Principle Paid: $273,673.47
Interest Paid: $368,620.53
Total Paid: $642,294

Are you really wanting to pay $640k+ for a program that is averaging <5% APA-acred. match rate?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Just to "show my work" for the internship figure:

'06-'07: 85 applied, 5 matched to APA/CPA (Canadian) Acred Sites
'07-'08: 81 applied, 4 matched to APA/CPA (Canadian) Acred Sites
'08-'09: 61 applied, 0 matched to APA/CPA (Canadian) Acred Sites
'09-'10: 80 applied, 2 matched to APA/CPA (Canadian) Acred Sites
'10-'11: 43 applied, 3 matched to APA/CPA (Canadian) Acred Sites
'11-'12: 52 applied, 6 matched to APA/CPA (Canadian) Acred Sites
'12-'13: 63 applied, 2 matched to APA/CPA (Canadian) Acred Sites
Total: 465 students applied, 22 matched to APA/CPA (Canadian) Acred Sites
4.7% Match Rate

 

[smalltownpsych]

Just to "show my work" for the internship figure:

'06-'07: 85 applied, 5 matched to APA/CPA (Canadian) Acred Sites
'07-'08: 81 applied, 4 matched to APA/CPA (Canadian) Acred Sites
'08-'09: 61 applied, 0 matched to APA/CPA (Canadian) Acred Sites
'09-'10: 80 applied, 2 matched to APA/CPA (Canadian) Acred Sites
'10-'11: 43 applied, 3 matched to APA/CPA (Canadian) Acred Sites
'11-'12: 52 applied, 6 matched to APA/CPA (Canadian) Acred Sites
'12-'13: 63 applied, 2 matched to APA/CPA (Canadian) Acred Sites
Total: 465 students applied, 22 matched to APA/CPA (Canadian) Acred Sites
4.7% Match Rate

That is so much better than the 0% that I cited. Not! Those are horrible statistics. I thought that the 70% APA match rate that my program has had some years was bad enough. This is just shameful.

 

[psych844]

i'm not sure how people do it. I wouldn't be able to sleep if I was dealing with this much uncertainty and guaranteed debt. Are these programs maybe connected to big pharma and there are free prescriptions for sleep meds?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

My concern is not only with the low match rate, but also with the large class sizes (and thus large number of students affected). This one program has seemingly been contributing a disproportionate and substantial burden to the overall internship imbalance.

 

[Chalupacabra]

i'm not sure how people do it. I wouldn't be able to sleep if I was dealing with this much uncertainty and guaranteed debt. Are these programs maybe connected to big pharma and there are free prescriptions for sleep meds?

I've heard people talk about the concept of debt blindness - once you're 100k in debt, what's 10 or 20k more? Once you're at 150, how much of a difference is it to go to 175 or 200? I also think a lot of people don't do the math, and by the time they realize how much debt they're going to take on they decide it makes more sense to commit no matter what the cost rather than to back out and potentially have nothing to show for the debt.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It's where debt blindness and the sunk cost fallacy come together to make a love child…that is $300k in debt and no good prospects to pay back the mound of debt.

I posted the numbers because they are untenable. As someone with debt from undergrad and grad school, I learned early on that compound interest is not a joke, even at 3ish %…let alone nearly 7%.

 

[erg923]

I've heard people talk about the concept of debt blindness - once you're 100k in debt, what's 10 or 20k more? Once you're at 150, how much of a difference is it to go to 175 or 200? I also think a lot of people don't do the math, and by the time they realize how much debt they're going to take on they decide it makes more sense to commit no matter what the cost rather than to back out and potentially have nothing to show for the debt.

Student loan debt is counted in the debt to income ratio by banks and mortgage lenders. And I doubt many 22-24 year olds may be thinking about that little tidbit of info. 100 to 150K could literally be the difference between house and no house.

 

[smalltownpsych]

My concern is not only with the low match rate, but also with the large class sizes (and thus large number of students affected). This one program has seemingly been contributing a disproportionate and substantial burden to the overall internship imbalance.

I was thinking the same thing. Somebody who has a little extra time on their hands should add up the number of students put out each year by Alliant and Argosy, the overall APA match rate for these companies, and how many students are unmatched in just these two companies compared to how many in all of the rest combined. If these two companies went away, the "internship problem" would probably go away, too.

 

[MCParent]

I was thinking the same thing. Somebody who has a little extra time on their hands should add up the number of students put out each year by Alliant and Argosy, the overall APA match rate for these companies, and how many students are unmatched in just these two companies compared to how many in all of the rest combined. If these two companies went away, the "internship problem" would probably go away, too.

I actually ran those numbers out of curiosity a while back when I was doing one of the projects. I recall the data suggesting that if something like the 10 largest programs were to close, there would an APA match rate of more like 90% over the current 75-ish%. If the largest ~15 programs closed the imbalance would disappear or reverse.

 

[erg923]

I actually ran those numbers out of curiosity a while back when I was doing one of the projects. I recall the data suggesting that if something like the 10 largest programs were to close, there would an APA match rate of more like 90% over the current 75-ish%. If the largest ~15 programs closed the imbalance would disappear or reverse.

Alliant, Argosy, and the Chicago School have at least 10 campuses combined, don't they? Throw in Midwestern University (see here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/psyd-program-review.1127275/), University of The Rockies, and Walden University online and I think we're good, no?

 

[smalltownpsych]

I actually ran those numbers out of curiosity a while back when I was doing one of the projects. I recall the data suggesting that if something like the 10 largest programs were to close, there would an APA match rate of more like 90% over the current 75-ish%. If the largest ~15 programs closed the imbalance would disappear or reverse.

Alliant, Argosy, and the Chicago School have at least 10 campuses combined, dont they? Throw in Midwestern University, University of The Rockies, and Walden University online and I think we're good, no?

There ya' go. Meanwhile the APA acts as though it is this complicated mystery of a problem to solve.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I was thinking the same thing. Somebody who has a little extra time on their hands should add up the number of students put out each year by Alliant and Argosy, the overall APA match rate for these companies, and how many students are unmatched in just these two companies compared to how many in all of the rest combined. If these two companies went away, the "internship problem" would probably go away, too.

So... I ran some numbers on the 2014 match data from all the Alliant and Argosy. There are a total of 33 of these programs (not "campuses"- some campuses have multiple programs, such as a clinical psy.d. and a school/counseling ph.d.)contributing participants to the match. Results as follows:

So, the Alliant and Argosy companies were responsible for ovedr 15% (or approximately one out of every 6) match participants in 2014. That's kinda scary, for many reasons. As a comparison, here is the data for 2014 for all programs in the "company" I got my degree from- The Massachusetts public university system:

Looks a little different, doesn't it!

 

[ClinicalABA]

I forgot to add to the post above- I didn't spend a ton of time on this, so I may have missed an Alliant/Argosy campus/program/strip mall/server farm or two from the appic report, or entered a wrong formula into the spread sheet somewhere. Please feel free to report me to the appropriate oversight agency.

 

[LETSGONYR]

So... I ran some numbers on the 2014 match data from all the Alliant and Argosy. There are a total of 33 of these programs (not "campuses"- some campuses have multiple programs, such as a clinical psy.d. and a school/counseling ph.d.)contributing participants to the match. Results as follows:
View attachment 193171
View attachment 193172

So, the Alliant and Argosy companies were responsible for ovedr 15% (or approximately one out of every 6) match participants in 2014. That's kinda scary, for many reasons. As a comparison, here is the data for 2014 for all programs in the "company" I got my degree from- The Massachusetts public university system:

View attachment 193173

Looks a little different, doesn't it!

Kinda scary when you also consider that these numbers are skewed by "captive" internship sites/consortia. I don't know if all of the argosy/Alliant programs have them, but I know at least one does.

 

[smalltownpsych]

So... I ran some numbers on the 2014 match data from all the Alliant and Argosy. There are a total of 33 of these programs (not "campuses"- some campuses have multiple programs, such as a clinical psy.d. and a school/counseling ph.d.)contributing participants to the match. Results as follows:
View attachment 193171
View attachment 193172

So, the Alliant and Argosy companies were responsible for ovedr 15% (or approximately one out of every 6) match participants in 2014. That's kinda scary, for many reasons. As a comparison, here is the data for 2014 for all programs in the "company" I got my degree from- The Massachusetts public university system:

View attachment 193173

Looks a little different, doesn't it!

Good work except the overall minus Argosy and Alliant doesn't look right as I think you forgot to subtract them from the total applicants. It ends up with only 76% match without those programs, but it looks like it should be about 92% to me.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Good work except the overall minus Argosy and Alliant doesn't look right as I think you forgot to subtract them from the total applicants. It ends up with only 76% match without those programs, but it looks like it should be about 92% to me.

Thanks for catching that. It was an Excel error. I moved things around a little publish as a pdd to snapshot and post in the forum, and when I did the cell references for the formulas got messed up. I think this is the correct data:

 

[cara susanna]

Wow, so 92% of applicants would match without Alliant and Argosy participating?

 

[ClinicalABA]

Wow, so 92% of applicants would match without Alliant and Argosy participating?

I think it's actually 82%, overall- not a huge difference overall.