I've been researching the cost to pursue a career in physical therapy. It looks like the total cost to attain the DPT would be around 125k to 150k. Is that unusually high? What was your total student loan debt after completion of DPT school? Do you have trouble paying off your student loans? Loan calculators don't like this high of debt with an annual salary of 50k. Thanks.
current DPTs... What's your average debt coming out of school?
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That is a really expensive PT school. I think that a quality PT education can be obtained for less than 75k. Try to go to state schools which will cost even less, probably 30k and other private schools that are cheaper. For the price that you stated it looks more like the high end expensive programs such as USC.
Well currently I have ~55k in debt. This for the BS degree and the prereqs that I'm currently taking. I'm assuming the average total cost of a DPT program is 75k. This value is based upon average tuitions between programs (~19k/year) plus living expenses. I gave a range because school seems to always cost more than you expect (living expenses, books, etc...) My 125k to 150k are just estimates. From what I've been reading it seems pretty much accurate. I'm trying to find out what position currently working DPTs are so I can more accurately predict my situation if I were to pursue the DPT which I'm currently on track for.
I'm aware that cost is the primary factor in determining where to go to DPT school. From what I understand the DPT program is very intensive so holding a job outside of taking classes is difficult so more loans/financial assistance is needed to just sustain. Thanks for the response.
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I see what you mean. In my situation I have little to no debt for my undergrad because grants and scholarships covered everything. That is probably why my estimate is a little lower. In terms of salaries, it is really going to vary where you end up practicing and in what type of setting. I live in So. California and the average salary around here is high 50s-mid 60s. I worked for someone in private practice who makes 6 figures, but that practice took him eight years to build.
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Hi, I went to PT school in NY and I am coming out with 150k in loan amounts.
http://editedtales.blogspot.com/
http://editedtales.blogspot.com/
Are you guys worried about this debt? I'm going to NYU and when I think about the debt I get sick to my stomach.
uneditedtales - Where did you go to school?
lee9786 - I don't know much, but from what I've heard salary depends on location and what area of PT you pursue. In NYC it looks like you can start around $75-85K if you do home healthcare on the side (not much, maybe an extra 10 hrs/wk). In that case, I plan on paying ~2K/month towards my debt and should be able to eliminate it within ~5 yrs.
uneditedtales - Where did you go to school?
lee9786 - I don't know much, but from what I've heard salary depends on location and what area of PT you pursue. In NYC it looks like you can start around $75-85K if you do home healthcare on the side (not much, maybe an extra 10 hrs/wk). In that case, I plan on paying ~2K/month towards my debt and should be able to eliminate it within ~5 yrs.
M
myr11
I am going to NYU as well and I am concerned about the cost/benefit of the program...I am just curious how you came about the 75-85k salary in NY figure? Do you know if it really is that much higher in the city?
It seems to me that the APTA has done an excellent job of marketing the PT profession. Most places "market" Physical Therapy as one of the greatest jobs of the future. This is due to mostly the growth and demand of the profession. What's kept on the DL is the cost of getting the DPT. The school debt to income ratio isn't good. Most DPTs are looking to have little discretionary income upon graduation of school. Yeah maybe a sign on bonus. Maybe some tuition reimbursement if you meet certain conditions (work in a certain area of need or for a company for so long). I'll most likely be doing some work for Americore. While they may help out with ~5k which is welcome when you look at the 120-135k I'm looking to spend if I do this the 5k doesn't seem like much.
Yeah its a good point. Personally, during my first year of undergrad I thought "Oh, physical therapists have a "Doctorate" degree, they must make bank!" Boy was I wrong! However, you never hear anything about this when it comes to the APTA.
A hospital I volunteered at this summer gave me an application to come back and work for them once I have my DPT. It was a loan forgiveness scholarship of $5000. Im not a rude person, but that is like nothing in comparison to what I will spend to get this degree (At least $100K).
If there is one thing this shows its that PTs dont go to school for the money. If you dont love the field of PT then you are going to be in a real mess a few years down the road.
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Hey, most new grads working outpatient ortho in NYC will be making probably around 60K right now (give or take a couple thousand). If you work per diem on weekends, etc you can make an extra 20K. So that quote is very possible. One hospital has offered me per diem on weekends for $50/hour which will come in handy to help pay off my loans (which is quite a bit)...
According to salary.com, the average salary for a PT in NYC is ~$83K. I realize that is probably all inclusive in terms of experience and probably more accurate for PTs who have been working for a while. The bottom-most 10% makes ~$71K. Even if you chop off several thou and say you start at $65K (which I also think is reasonable projecting 3 yrs from now) and do some home care on the side per diem like MinnDasota said, you have your $75-85K.
This is what somebody else had said in another thread who knew PTs in NYC that are currently doing this.
My student loan grand total came to ~ 60k, including ~ 40k for my state school and about 20k for COL, although I lived with MaDukes the whole time. I graduated in 2007, went undergrad and grad at my state school.
I grossed 68k last year- my first full year of practice. This is at an average clip of 42.5 hrs per week. I work at a private outpatient PT practice in a small impoverished city (lots of Masshealth and Medicare). I pay about 550 on loans per month, leaving me with plenty extra.
I'm also paying about 2500 per semester for post-bac classes to fulfill med school pre-req's, since my classes were taken at the school of health professions and thusly do no count for med school pre-req's.
I give only facts, and I'd be glad to give newcomers to PT insight into my decisions for schooling. Feel free to PM me if you'd like.
I grossed 68k last year- my first full year of practice. This is at an average clip of 42.5 hrs per week. I work at a private outpatient PT practice in a small impoverished city (lots of Masshealth and Medicare). I pay about 550 on loans per month, leaving me with plenty extra.
I'm also paying about 2500 per semester for post-bac classes to fulfill med school pre-req's, since my classes were taken at the school of health professions and thusly do no count for med school pre-req's.
I give only facts, and I'd be glad to give newcomers to PT insight into my decisions for schooling. Feel free to PM me if you'd like.
I went to the University of South Carolina and have $130K in student loans. Seems like the APTA has done a fine job screwing over the profession and those of us who *didn't* enter it for prestige or money, but simply to help people....how in the world is jacking up the cost of an entry-level degree going to solve the shortage of PTs out there?
yikes... did you manage to put a dent in this? How is your debt looking 5 years in?
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The average will be around 90k
A Google search will say 80-85k but that is a bit lower than expected.
Also the federal government is increasing the loan interest rates for grads to 6% unsubsidized.
If you have heavy undergrad debt, I may have to tell you to select a different field.
Offers range from 60-70k currently although there are alumni with 70k ballpark starting
The highest offers are 90-100k+ with home health pulling highest and being low 100ks
Hope this is informative to those considering.
I recommend ONLY state schools and you should inquire to placements if you have multiple acceptances.
Schools are attempting to consolidate the placements to driving distances. This helps quite a bit to offset cost.
Working during school is outrageously difficult
A Google search will say 80-85k but that is a bit lower than expected.
Also the federal government is increasing the loan interest rates for grads to 6% unsubsidized.
If you have heavy undergrad debt, I may have to tell you to select a different field.
Offers range from 60-70k currently although there are alumni with 70k ballpark starting
The highest offers are 90-100k+ with home health pulling highest and being low 100ks
Hope this is informative to those considering.
I recommend ONLY state schools and you should inquire to placements if you have multiple acceptances.
Schools are attempting to consolidate the placements to driving distances. This helps quite a bit to offset cost.
Working during school is outrageously difficult
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Take a hard look at where you live too. Many of these 100k incomes are in California only. It's a tough market. I negotiated hard and also have additional experience aside from PT school. And I'm working in the rural Midwest. I hoped for a bit more and it's a sad reality that everyone said no. My classmates and I are pretty much all taking 60k to 70k jobs. I'm not convinced we will see it increase much more with experience.
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Did you just get out?
From what I've seen, Midwest is one of the lower paying compared to coastal areas. That's very odd that you're rural and being given that offer though.
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Just saw a post in pharmacy forum talking about the rate hike and found out it applies to undergraduates as well.
Going off of that information I cannot recommend this field if you have to take undergraduate debt or cannot work something out with living expenses when attending graduate school
If you're far down the pipeline from applying and can't manage this, I hope this gets to you.
I wasn't singing this tune a while ago but it's not going to get better in my opinion especially with our current politicians
Going off of that information I cannot recommend this field if you have to take undergraduate debt or cannot work something out with living expenses when attending graduate school
If you're far down the pipeline from applying and can't manage this, I hope this gets to you.
I wasn't singing this tune a while ago but it's not going to get better in my opinion especially with our current politicians
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Yes, we are def lower in the Midwest. And I respect that my cost of living is less. But there's a lot of "don't settle" talk going around. And we just aren't seeing it here, talk that there are better paying jobs out there. I'm not seeing it in a large swath of the country. And no one seems to be bending. I ended up on the top end of my classmates for sure and I'm appalled at the salaries some took compared to debt load. They didn't need a doctorate or the 100k in loans to get those salaries.
Many friends of mine with bachelor degrees in other fields are now working for businesses that are paying them 50-60k a year. I recently read an article that said the avg starting salary for new grads in any profession in the US has raised to 50k (highest in a long time). My girlfriend finished her undergrad in 3 yrs and is now making 62k one year out of school!
I will be starting school this summer with no debt from undergrad, but am looking at accruing close to 50-60k debt during grad school. I realize that my 50-60k debt is probably a minor debt load compared to most DPT students out there, but it still bothers me that I could've made the same salary with a possibly higher salary potential if I would've opted for a different career.
Don't get me wrong I am extremely passionate and excited in becoming a PT in the near future, but I probably would've thought long and hard about my career choice pre undergrad if I knew then what I know now about the debt to income ratio compared to other career choices.
I will be starting school this summer with no debt from undergrad, but am looking at accruing close to 50-60k debt during grad school. I realize that my 50-60k debt is probably a minor debt load compared to most DPT students out there, but it still bothers me that I could've made the same salary with a possibly higher salary potential if I would've opted for a different career.
Don't get me wrong I am extremely passionate and excited in becoming a PT in the near future, but I probably would've thought long and hard about my career choice pre undergrad if I knew then what I know now about the debt to income ratio compared to other career choices.
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Bro.....you are fine. That is not bad at all
Also, I'm calling bs on the 50-60k average unless it's biotech, banking, engineering, or tech
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I find that offensive!
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The national average salary for new grads with bachelors degree is just 50k...
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Welp. 50-60k is still not bad at all. The insulation of the job security and you being at a 1:1.3 debt to income ratio worst case is fine for you
Youre in a good spot.
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Tuition for average DPT program nowadays is around $100k from what I've seen. Unless you manage to get into a program that is in your native state. Depending on how many schools are in your native state, your chances will vary. I ended up going out of state, but to a private school that is relatively affordable on terms of private programs (~$75k for tuition). People who are saying that $150k is high for a PT program probably think you are talking just tuition. With cost of living expenses (I'm taking that in my loans as well), I will also be coming out of school with ~$150k in debt. There is a very odd program at Alabama State I believe that charges $44,000 for out of state tuition, if my memory serves me well. I don't know how they are pulling that off. As far as having a job during your enrollment, some people do it, but those at my school recommended not working more than 10 hrs/week. This would just be spending money anyway, so I didn't waste my time trying to squeeze that in. My wife and I just started our family as well so any free time I get, I take. Some people may call me lazy for not working a 2nd shift job and only getting 4-5 hrs of sleep every night, but that's about what I'm getting already w/o a job. I'll be paying off loans for a good amount of time after school, but as long as I can afford to live some semblance of life at home, I really don't care.
The average on our platform at www.fitbux.com is $144,000 of total debt at graduation. This is supported by 1,000s of SPTs and DPTs being on our platform....
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That is absolutely insane. I'm curious if the sample size going to fitbux consists of students that didn't budget before starting and took max loans, if they took clinicals to travel, or if it is a high sample size of private and out of state students.
What is your refinance rate?
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Judge not, that ye be not judged, my friend.
You have no idea what anyone's financial situation, values or life goals are, and far be it from you to call anyone "insane". If you got through school with relatively low debt, that's great that it worked out that way for you. But very few people without an external source of funding can get a BS (full-time) and a DPT for less than $100k with tuition and living expenses. I fully expect you to tell me that you worked full time while in undergrad and kept working nights, weekends and holidays the entire time you were in PT school, lived exclusively off beans and toast for 7 years in a cardboard box under a bridge so that you wouldn't have to borrow for living expenses, and got into the cheapest and most well-respected PT school in the least expensive part of the country because you were such a top-notch student that you could go wherever you wanted. And that's great for you. Not everyone can or should do the same.
Or perhaps you will admit to an external source of funding. Great for you too, not everyone has the same. Or perhaps you waited years and saved up money before going to school. Great for you too, not everyone can or should do the same.
Not everyone values the same thing, not everyone has the same expenses, not everyone has the same capabilities, not everyone has the same circumstances and not everyone is fortunate to have external funding or good opportunities/capabilities to obtain funding. Sure, everyone could be a little more frugal and work a little harder, but not necessarily to the tune of many tens of thousands over a few years. Your assumption that students that took "max loans", whatever that means, didn't budget or otherwise were poor planners is not founded in any reality because you don't know anything about any of the people you are talking about. Just because that's the conclusion you jump to doesn't make it so. Everyone who has borrowed well into the 6-figures for a DPT has a story behind why, and if you heard them I imagine most of them would sound fairly reasonable. PTs are not thick people; it is probably a small minority who are deeply indebted simply because they "didn't budget". I seriously doubt that a majority of PT students, who had to get nearly straight A's in college and then make it through a doctorate degree, are less clever than you. Under-educated in financial literacy? Probably. But probably not insane.
The cost of education in our country is certainly "insane", which may be what you meant. It's a broad and pressing issue, but you and many others on this forum have consistently painted anyone who borrows more that $100k to get a BS and a DPT with broad strokes. Whether or those people individually are "insane" or otherwise foolish is your opinion, but open your eyes and realize that more people are graduating PT school with 6-figure debt than without at this point, so telling people how idiotic they were to do that probably isn't a productive discussion point.
Do I advocate for people to borrow huge sums of money to get a DPT without considering other options? Of course not. In an ideal world, should anyone ever borrow 6-figures to become a PT. Probably not, but we don't live in an ideal world, do we? Do I think the exponential growth of DPT programs at $40k+/yr at under-developed private health professions universities is a big concern for our profession that is only going to cause problems in the future? Of course I do, and that is something we could have an intelligent and objective conversation about. Holier-than-thou postings about how you graduated with relatively low debt and how you can't fathom why all of your peers didn't do the same are not what is going to contribute productively to such a discussion.
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It wasn't holier than thou just to be clear. It was just very blunt.
In case you haven't noticed, our society perpetuates a "work hard and everything will be okay!" mentality which is just flat out false now when it comes to education.
I was saying the cost is insane. The situation is insane. Should the students in the pharmacy forum not warn people or be blunt as to the finances of the situation of their field for other posters? What about the dental students dropping 137k a year at usc for coa? These are extreme circumstances but still very real issues.
Until people decide it's seriously just not worth the stress and ridiculous financial burden, nothing is going to change. Max loans is taking out everything and spending all of the money without budgeting which I've seen. The Apta has also reported lower amounts of accumulated debt as an average through Internet searches so sorry I asked if the sample size was biased for 144k......One hundred and forty four thousand dollars......that is atrocious. That number makes me sick to my stomach just typing. Physicians and dentists are the only ones that should be taking that amount.
The cost of higher Ed isnt to going to change. The best thing this field can do would be to have a two year didactic with tuition and a written competency test, an intern year within the hospital being paid a reduced salary while increasing efficiency so a clinician can teach you but also have financial incentive, and a specialty year that is a match out similar to medical.
Unfortunately that isn't the consensus right now.
You can keep telling people everyone's situation is different, but there's a point at which others need to say....is it really worth it now? Cnn best jobs always paints a rosy picture as well as Forbes for this field....but the financial stress is sort of brushed under the rug.
When therapy gets more and more defined by utilizing techs, aides, assistants, and catering to referral sources to cram in patients quickly in order to pay off debt and become an insurance machine.....it's not exactly something to be proud of.
Paying the bills drives practice patterns and your work with patients. None of this is healthy for the field currently.
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One last thing....based on current politics....you should know that the current administration is trying to chuck out a lot of repayment programs such as pslf, repaye, ibr, etc. with a replacement to a 12.5% flat payment model for 20 to 30 years.
This is good news for millennial refi companies like fitbux and sofi which exist because they compete on interest rates for refinancing but crutch programs were things that many people tried to rely on due to school cost and those are some of the people going "it's okay! Everything is gonna work out!" who also went to school when it was half the cost but people still listen to them authoritatively.
Sometimes you need to put your foot down and be blunt about making decisions. It's not a special little fairytale. It makes me really sad that colleagues have this debt. Don't get me wrong, I think this field is really rewarding and there is an ever increasing body of literature growing that contributes to our practice.....but we need to be exposing the giant elephant in the room instead of pretending he doesn't exist getting bigger year after year.
If the only solution is to have ppl stop applying to schools for tuition to drop then that's what needs to happen. Spreading the word and being blunt to people behind us gives them a much better and informed decision making process.
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The sample size is statistically significant. We have about the same number of members that went private vs public, in-state vs out-of-state. We are working right now to sort through the data to bifurcate between the different choices.
In regards to the refinance rate, depends on the borrow and if a co-signor is included. We work with our members to first decide if refinancing makes since, then decide what term the should go into and use a fixed rate, variable rate, or hybrid loan. We do not underwrite the loans but use partners. Currently, we are partnered with Commonbond, Earnest, and Lendkey and are in talks with three other companies. One of the lenders we currently have has guaranteed that they will beat any offer SoFi has if they are members of FitBUX.
We just launched a Pre-DPT service that you might like. The tough part is getting the word out about it. Below is the link... Physical Therapy School Rankings & Financial Technology - FitPT
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Good job. Is this on the pre DPT forum? You should also try reddit, social media, podcasting.
Excellent on providing the tax deductions there as well. This mirrors my own spreadsheets
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We put it on the Pre-DPT forum but haven't gotten any responses. Reddit won't let me post it for some reason. Just started launching it on social media, primarily Facebook (FitBUX). As for podcast, we were just on EIM's podcast John Childs and Jeff Moore. Hopefully, word starts to get around.
Side note: The link I put in my previous reply, if you click get more info it takes you to the next page... On that page we have a sample of our comparative analysis of 3 PT programs that we give Pre-DPTs. I'm interested in hearing your feedback. A direct link to the page is below (the sample is under the "Comparative Analysis of PT Schools" section)
Pre-Physical Therapy Student Loan Help - FitBUX
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I will PM you when I have a chance. I did notice that of the three schools, one of the cheaper schools in the US wasn't selected (I.e. a program charging 40-60k total). The analysis is really comprehensive and I need to go through it slowly. It may take some time to really pick through this but it is lightyears beyond what financial aid services are giving students at schools. That is just from a cursory overview.
You guys are excellent
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We could
Thank you...As for the 3 schools in the sample, we had are the technology pick two random schools then included BU because that is where our founder's wife went...
Thank you...As for the 3 schools in the sample, we had are the technology pick two random schools then included BU because that is where our founder's wife went...
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PMd some info. Would like to continue some discussion if you have time. Can pop out more info to DPT and pre DPT on this site for decisionmaking.
Prefer to remain anonymous though for professional reasons. My apologies.
You guys are currently a mirror PT image of the white coat investor. He is an emergency medicine physician offering underground financial advice and help. He helped many physicians. We need that corollary for physical therapists.
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Opinions about for profit schools aside, what South College is doing doesn't sound so bad does it?
I totally agree that the PT curriculum could be compressed into 2 years using a hybrid model, followed by paid residency.
Can't argue with you there.
It is no doubt true that as long as there is an unending supply of students willing to pay, tuition will never go down and the number of schools will never stop going up. This is why pharmacy schools are admitting people with 2.8 gpa's to keep raking it in.
I'm well aware, though this wasn't really the point of my post.
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If internship and residency are mandatory for that model.....then yes
Passing boards is a written examination. Completion of the two year model would mirror medicine and their step 1 examination to complete didactic before a transition to application under supervision.
Intern year with work on multiple units being paid would develop application and you'd see acute disease and injury without loans exploding with interest.
Residency match out to outpatient being paid would then give you mentorship for Peds, neuro, sport, Ortho etc. while having a solid foundation from intern year. If some are not competitive enough or there aren't enough mentorship spots, then the group receives a general license for practice within the hospital or home health.
Those who match out become board certified and subsequent new coding from legislation would be utilized by the board certified therapists as rehabilitation science improves.
This would fix the current 8 week lottery system crisis in which the student, although learning, is working for free.
If it's already a CEU then the CI already has incentive. A student being compensated would be fair as volume increases for revenue generation and more eyes and hands on patients to help.
Upon full licensure, a student would have enough experience to be proficient without learning on the fly and trying to reference PPT at night after clinic. You'll have seen ACLs from initial injury to discharge with a mentor to talk to at break so you're more competent.
I would argue that the residency year should have benchmarks for numbers of cases for proficiency as well.
Currently, I see the two year programs as a good step for reform but they are on the cusp of being a gravytrain that will saturate the market......or the building block to creating a good training pathway.
Internship and residency timelengths on one year cycles would be a good organization for preparation from leadership and would be intelligent
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And if things like fitbux become more public then applications will drop.
The problem is that unlike with pharmacy (friends and I joke that retail will be replaced by computers)......students now are going towards demand and jobs. They aren't intentionally being irresponsible financially since there are jobs. However the loans are such a cash cow that tuition elevation just stays well above outside market forces.
If therapist payment accurately reflected what is taught in school such as differential diagnosis, complex thinking processes in neuro and peds for example, and referencing lab values and imaging for predicting deficits based on pathology then this wouldn't be as bad of a deal.
Instead, our cpt coding is the same time based coding since before the doctoral degree elevation which is bogus.
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Thread has kind of been hijacked. To answer the OP, total debt for me was $67K. $60K of that was for graduate, the rest undergrad. If you are graduating with $150K in debt, you can expect a loan payment that's close to $1,500 a month for 10 years. Your salary will depend heavily on the area you get a job in. Mine was $75K in MN. I would recommend you make finding a company student loan package a priority. The common $5K or $10K for two years packages are ok, but if you're $150K in debt, try to find a larger one. It will require you to move somewhere VERY rural, but it's worth it in my opinion. The highest of these packages I've seen is $500 paid directly to the lender every two weeks for 5 years, for a total of $65,000 in loan repayment. Another company did something similar, paying $1,000 a month directly to the lender for 5 years, totaling $60,000. These jobs aren't as competitive as people tend to think because they're so rural, so it's worth looking into.
The tough part about those jobs offering that much in student loan repayment is its considered taxable income. Not a bad thing just something to be aware of when looking at the offer.
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While that's true, it also depends on how they do it. I can't go so far as to say, "most" because I don't know, but many employers doing a monthly or biweekly loan repayment benefit (as opposed to a lump sum) will increase the amount per check so that the net pay is $500 or $1,000 AFTER the tax. For example, I got separate pay stubs for the student loan repayment benefit, which was $1,000. The gross pay on the stub was $1,139. Tax was deducted. Net pay was then $1,000, which was sent to the lender. If we're talking about a lump sum, which is actually the more common practice, that's something to be more careful of.
You proved my point...after tax meaning in your example $139 was paid in taxes. Employees have looked negatively upon this on numerous industry surveys. Primary reason is they feel that if the gross amount was taxed there is no difference between them getting an extra $1,139 in gross pay versus getting the "student loan benefit". In fact its actually viewed upon negatively because the employee is saying if there is no tax benefit then why can't I just get the extra money and decide what to do with it. In short, they don't view it as a benefit. They simply view it as an increase in pay and that they don't have a choice in where that extra pay is applied too. I've actually had employees get pissed saying "they can pay more for that but if I just ask for more money they say no, that is BS."
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At Fitbux,
at which point in their educational timelines progression do you recommend consultation for your services?
A. 6 months preceding graduation
B. Graduation and board preparation
C. Postgrad and job security up to 6 months at which point the student is living off of their school loans.
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