Current Ortho residents! Do your programs value dental experience?

[ziptree]

The last thread regarding this issue was in 2007.

I graduated in 2008 from dental school and have been working as a general dentist since. I was an associate for 5 and have owned two practices for the last 3 years. I've been lucky enough to have had extra mentorship and have had experience with almost everything including several full mouth rehab cases.

Are there any orthodontic programs that value someone with dental experience like mine?

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[SweetWater54]

I don't know the answer to your question, but if you don't mind me asking, what made you want to go back to school for ortho? I met a GP who's practice is 60% ortho, so I was just curious as to what made you decide to specialize vs take on more ortho cases as a GP. Thanks!

 

[gatorfan99]

I don't know the answer to your question, but if you don't mind me asking, what made you want to go back to school for ortho? I met a GP who's practice is 60% ortho, so I was just curious as to what made you decide to specialize vs take on more ortho cases as a GP. Thanks!

From my buddy who just applied: He wants to learn what he heck ortho is all about (and not potentially hurt someone) and not just freeball on patients based off on the small tid bits of info he learn in some crappy weekend CE course..

 

[ziptree]

I don't know the answer to your question, but if you don't mind me asking, what made you want to go back to school for ortho? I met a GP who's practice is 60% ortho, so I was just curious as to what made you decide to specialize vs take on more ortho cases as a GP. Thanks!

From my buddy who just applied: He wants to learn what he heck ortho is all about (and not potentially hurt someone) and not just freeball on patients based off on the small tid bits of info he learn in some crappy weekend CE course..

I was considering doing the GP Ortho program which is "pretty comprehensive" from a GP's viewpoint, in addition to doing Invisalign/ClearCorrect like I already do.

But the biggest reason is that, no offense to any aspiring, current resident, or practicing orthodontists, but I see that a lot of orthodontists don't understand enough restorative dentistry. I get cases back where I have to send the patient in for modifications to the treatment because of restorative, cosmetic, and dental material limitations. Plus, I've had a handful of patients come back with interferences and joint pain. I've had to mount models in MICP and/or CR and mark interferences for orthodontists before.

I think, with my experience as a restorative dentist, I can: 1) provide results that are easier to restore (eg: enough clearance for porcelain for cosmetic cases, proper group function for FMR case, orthodontic movement to assist with proper gingival contours), 2) educate patients better about the restorative process that is to follow orthodontics, if that's the case (eg: process of full mouth reconstruction, process of cosmetic dentistry and the limitations of those procedures, the possible need for splint therapy post restorative work), and 3) better able to communicate and understand GPs and what their needs are in order to provide a beautiful result for the patient, both functionally as well as cosmetically.

 

[gatorfan99]

I was considering doing the GP Ortho program which is "pretty comprehensive" from a GP's viewpoint, in addition to doing Invisalign/ClearCorrect like I already do.

But the biggest reason is that, no offense to any aspiring, current resident, or practicing orthodontists, but I see that a lot of orthodontists don't understand enough restorative dentistry. I get cases back where I have to send the patient in for modifications to the treatment because of restorative, cosmetic, and dental material limitations. Plus, I've had a handful of patients come back with interferences and joint pain. I've had to mount models in MICP and/or CR and mark interferences for orthodontists before.

I think, with my experience as a restorative dentist, I can: 1) provide results that are easier to restore (eg: enough clearance for porcelain for cosmetic cases, proper group function for FMR case, orthodontic movement to assist with proper gingival contours), 2) educate patients better about the restorative process that is to follow orthodontics, if that's the case (eg: process of full mouth reconstruction, process of cosmetic dentistry and the limitations of those procedures, the possible need for splint therapy post restorative work), and 3) better able to communicate and understand GPs and what their needs are in order to provide a beautiful result for the patient, both functionally as well as cosmetically.

Absolutely, there are many orthos (not an orthodontist, but I've experienced some of these guys myself) that are totally blind to the restorative aspects of a case - why you should consider being a GP for a few years before you go ortho. And there are plenty of restorative docs that are blind to all the occlusal factors that may come in play - just because you can make anterior teeth line up, does that have any consequences on the posterior alignment? (the mouth doesn't stop at the canines). This is why a team approach, IHMO, with various docs that know their stuff on all the different aspects of dentistry is the best way to tackle a case (vs the lone cowboy).

 

[Tooth]

There are few ortho programs that appreciate GP experience from my perspective. The one's I'm aware of are JU, Tennessee, and St. Barnabas. Good luck.

 

[DamonSelfLigation]

I was considering doing the GP Ortho program which is "pretty comprehensive" from a GP's viewpoint, in addition to doing Invisalign/ClearCorrect like I already do.

But the biggest reason is that, no offense to any aspiring, current resident, or practicing orthodontists, but I see that a lot of orthodontists don't understand enough restorative dentistry. I get cases back where I have to send the patient in for modifications to the treatment because of restorative, cosmetic, and dental material limitations. Plus, I've had a handful of patients come back with interferences and joint pain. I've had to mount models in MICP and/or CR and mark interferences for orthodontists before.

I think, with my experience as a restorative dentist, I can: 1) provide results that are easier to restore (eg: enough clearance for porcelain for cosmetic cases, proper group function for FMR case, orthodontic movement to assist with proper gingival contours), 2) educate patients better about the restorative process that is to follow orthodontics, if that's the case (eg: process of full mouth reconstruction, process of cosmetic dentistry and the limitations of those procedures, the possible need for splint therapy post restorative work), and 3) better able to communicate and understand GPs and what their needs are in order to provide a beautiful result for the patient, both functionally as well as cosmetically.

I cannot believe in this lack of perspective coming from someone with so much experience. I will tell you something that you never learned yet, and that is that you have no idea how this world works. Not just dentistry, life.

I believe you answered your own question with your own post. Or perhaps you weren't able to answer it back in 2008 and are still wondering why you never got into orthodontics in the first place. I already assume you didn't have the grades and the resume, and you probably attribute your lack of success to that, but it extends far beyond that.

No offence to the other general dentists who aspire to be orthodontists and somehow feel qualified because they evaluate the work of the limited network of orthodontists around them.

Believe me, for every 3 specialists "that don't understand restorative dentistry", there are 20 general dentists that we interact with on a daily basis that should have their DDS/DMD revoked and given a hygiene degree.

You are exactly the type of general dentist (aspiring student/resident) that most orthodontic programs if not all do not want. I can think of some may consider you, but those are the programs like Roseman, Seton Hill.. that the other programs didn't want. Take note of these programs, you will find others just like you there.

The good programs would never take an applicant like you, because you are a liability and you will not be a good fit for the program/profession. And believe me, it
took a few messages in a forum, I can guarantee I can pick you out when I interview you.

Remember, we are all general dentists or were at some point, so I can speak from that side of the bridge, and from this end, I can definitely tell you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to orthodontics.

Let me spell it out for you.

You are the type of student (yes you will have to go from being a dentist with 2-3 practices and x amount of experience) that will come into the orthodontic program thinking you know everything, and then you end up just trying to get out of their to start making money. Not to mention you will probably do the bare minimum to get the certificate, and moonlight because you are going to be taking a paycut for the next 2-3 years and you won't be able to do that for the lifestyle you've been living for the last 8 years.

What I can already see is a lack of perspective and your ability to deteremine a breakthrough in the field of orthodontics with your limited experience of "a lot of orthodontists who don't understand enough restorative dentistry."

Perhaps you need to surround yourself with better orthodontists?

You get cases back like that because they don't respect you, nor do they care for your referrals because if they did, it would show in their work.

Maybe your patients came back with joint pain because of your lack of orthodontic knowledge and you are restoring everything to what you believe is the ideal occlusion because hey, that's what a restorative dentist does right?

Or is it the invisalign cases you are doing that leaves your patients with restoring the anterior 6 and leaving posterior open bites in the back. I don't recall general dentists being able to truly grasp the concept of "finishing and detailing" because a good bunch of orthodontists can barely do this well.

You had to do some work that you believe orthodontists should have done, and therefore you qualify yourself with your 6 years of interaction with them.

I know what you can do for now.

You can go back and reflect on how you could have gotten a better class rank that you never had back in 2004-2008 and associate that with the orthodontists who did that you seem to feel like you can rescue from such poor standard of care. Just because you had good grades, doesn't mean you got into orthodontics. Good grades are assumed in orthodontics, but perspective and intelligence beyond the classroom is what separates people like you and me.

I think as a restorative dentist you can: 1) do yourself and the other orthodontists you are bashing a favor and continue to be a restorative dentistry because after all these years and owning of practices, you just still don't understand why you are where you are in the first place.

2) educate your "patients you feel need to be saved from the horrible orthodontists" that you are going to give them an occlusal restoration, which will turn into an M-O, which will turn into an Inlay, which will turn into an endo post core crown, then extraction, bonegraft, implant, crown, and then invisalign to sit on top of the full mouth of implantsto just look cool and they can tell their friends they got invisalign for their implants.

3) "better able to communicate and understand GPs and what their needs are in order to provide a beautiful result for the patient, both functionally as well as cosmetically"

You should understand yourself first before trying to understand others.

What you don't understand is, while you think we need you for referrals, we don't. Good work sells itself. By seeing your lack of perspective, lack of experience, lack of self-awareness, you should be wondering why any orthodontists would be idiotic enough to refer any of their patients back to you, much less agree to treat patients coming as a referral from your office. While you think you are doing us a favor, believe me, the last thing any intelligent person would do, is not treat someone you refer. It makes us look bad...

I hope this helps.

 

[CaliDDS1986]

I cannot believe in this lack of perspective coming from someone with so much experience. I will tell you something that you never learned yet, and that is that you have no idea how this world works. Not just dentistry, life.

I believe you answered your own question with your own post. Or perhaps you weren't able to answer it back in 2008 and are still wondering why you never got into orthodontics in the first place. I already assume you didn't have the grades and the resume, and you probably attribute your lack of success to that, but it extends far beyond that.

No offence to the other general dentists who aspire to be orthodontists and somehow feel qualified because they evaluate the work of the limited network of orthodontists around them.

Believe me, for every 3 specialists "that don't understand restorative dentistry", there are 20 general dentists that we interact with on a daily basis that should have their DDS/DMD revoked and given a hygiene degree.

You are exactly the type of general dentist (aspiring student/resident) that most orthodontic programs if not all do not want. I can think of some may consider you, but those are the programs like Roseman, Seton Hill.. that the other programs didn't want. Take note of these programs, you will find others just like you there.

The good programs would never take an applicant like you, because you are a liability and you will not be a good fit for the program/profession. And believe me, it
took a few messages in a forum, I can guarantee I can pick you out when I interview you.

Remember, we are all general dentists or were at some point, so I can speak from that side of the bridge, and from this end, I can definitely tell you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to orthodontics.

Let me spell it out for you.

You are the type of student (yes you will have to go from being a dentist with 2-3 practices and x amount of experience) that will come into the orthodontic program thinking you know everything, and then you end up just trying to get out of their to start making money. Not to mention you will probably do the bare minimum to get the certificate, and moonlight because you are going to be taking a paycut for the next 2-3 years and you won't be able to do that for the lifestyle you've been living for the last 8 years.

What I can already see is a lack of perspective and your ability to deteremine a breakthrough in the field of orthodontics with your limited experience of "a lot of orthodontists who don't understand enough restorative dentistry."

Perhaps you need to surround yourself with better orthodontists?

You get cases back like that because they don't respect you, nor do they care for your referrals because if they did, it would show in their work.

Maybe your patients came back with joint pain because of your lack of orthodontic knowledge and you are restoring everything to what you believe is the ideal occlusion because hey, that's what a restorative dentist does right?

Or is it the invisalign cases you are doing that leaves your patients with restoring the anterior 6 and leaving posterior open bites in the back. I don't recall general dentists being able to truly grasp the concept of "finishing and detailing" because a good bunch of orthodontists can barely do this well.

You had to do some work that you believe orthodontists should have done, and therefore you qualify yourself with your 6 years of interaction with them.

I know what you can do for now.

You can go back and reflect on how you could have gotten a better class rank that you never had back in 2004-2008 and associate that with the orthodontists who did that you seem to feel like you can rescue from such poor standard of care. Just because you had good grades, doesn't mean you got into orthodontics. Good grades are assumed in orthodontics, but perspective and intelligence beyond the classroom is what separates people like you and me.

I think as a restorative dentist you can: 1) do yourself and the other orthodontists you are bashing a favor and continue to be a restorative dentistry because after all these years and owning of practices, you just still don't understand why you are where you are in the first place.

2) educate your "patients you feel need to be saved from the horrible orthodontists" that you are going to give them an occlusal restoration, which will turn into an M-O, which will turn into an Inlay, which will turn into an endo post core crown, then extraction, bonegraft, implant, crown, and then invisalign to sit on top of the full mouth of implantsto just look cool and they can tell their friends they got invisalign for their implants.

3) "better able to communicate and understand GPs and what their needs are in order to provide a beautiful result for the patient, both functionally as well as cosmetically"

You should understand yourself first before trying to understand others.

What you don't understand is, while you think we need you for referrals, we don't. Good work sells itself. By seeing your lack of perspective, lack of experience, lack of self-awareness, you should be wondering why any orthodontists would be idiotic enough to refer any of their patients back to you, much less agree to treat patients coming as a referral from your office. While you think you are doing us a favor, believe me, the last thing any intelligent person would do, is not treat someone you refer. It makes us look bad...

I hope this helps.

Wow, I don't think I've ever read a more conceited and egotistical post. Your pompous way of thinking is exactly why your speciality is in the dumps. I hope you enjoy sitting on your high horse of getting that high class rank. Remind me, do your patients ask you what rank you were? A lot of you orthos think your entitled for doing well in dental school. I did well in dental school too buddy, I just saw the writing on the wall about your crap specialty.

 

[tc434]

Well that escalated quickly...

 

[Tooth]

I cannot believe in this lack of perspective coming from someone with so much experience. I will tell you something that you never learned yet, and that is that you have no idea how this world works. Not just dentistry, life.

I believe you answered your own question with your own post. Or perhaps you weren't able to answer it back in 2008 and are still wondering why you never got into orthodontics in the first place. I already assume you didn't have the grades and the resume, and you probably attribute your lack of success to that, but it extends far beyond that.

No offence to the other general dentists who aspire to be orthodontists and somehow feel qualified because they evaluate the work of the limited network of orthodontists around them.

Believe me, for every 3 specialists "that don't understand restorative dentistry", there are 20 general dentists that we interact with on a daily basis that should have their DDS/DMD revoked and given a hygiene degree.

You are exactly the type of general dentist (aspiring student/resident) that most orthodontic programs if not all do not want. I can think of some may consider you, but those are the programs like Roseman, Seton Hill.. that the other programs didn't want. Take note of these programs, you will find others just like you there.

The good programs would never take an applicant like you, because you are a liability and you will not be a good fit for the program/profession. And believe me, it
took a few messages in a forum, I can guarantee I can pick you out when I interview you.

Remember, we are all general dentists or were at some point, so I can speak from that side of the bridge, and from this end, I can definitely tell you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to orthodontics.

Let me spell it out for you.

You are the type of student (yes you will have to go from being a dentist with 2-3 practices and x amount of experience) that will come into the orthodontic program thinking you know everything, and then you end up just trying to get out of their to start making money. Not to mention you will probably do the bare minimum to get the certificate, and moonlight because you are going to be taking a paycut for the next 2-3 years and you won't be able to do that for the lifestyle you've been living for the last 8 years.

What I can already see is a lack of perspective and your ability to deteremine a breakthrough in the field of orthodontics with your limited experience of "a lot of orthodontists who don't understand enough restorative dentistry."

Perhaps you need to surround yourself with better orthodontists?

You get cases back like that because they don't respect you, nor do they care for your referrals because if they did, it would show in their work.

Maybe your patients came back with joint pain because of your lack of orthodontic knowledge and you are restoring everything to what you believe is the ideal occlusion because hey, that's what a restorative dentist does right?

Or is it the invisalign cases you are doing that leaves your patients with restoring the anterior 6 and leaving posterior open bites in the back. I don't recall general dentists being able to truly grasp the concept of "finishing and detailing" because a good bunch of orthodontists can barely do this well.

You had to do some work that you believe orthodontists should have done, and therefore you qualify yourself with your 6 years of interaction with them.

I know what you can do for now.

You can go back and reflect on how you could have gotten a better class rank that you never had back in 2004-2008 and associate that with the orthodontists who did that you seem to feel like you can rescue from such poor standard of care. Just because you had good grades, doesn't mean you got into orthodontics. Good grades are assumed in orthodontics, but perspective and intelligence beyond the classroom is what separates people like you and me.

I think as a restorative dentist you can: 1) do yourself and the other orthodontists you are bashing a favor and continue to be a restorative dentistry because after all these years and owning of practices, you just still don't understand why you are where you are in the first place.

2) educate your "patients you feel need to be saved from the horrible orthodontists" that you are going to give them an occlusal restoration, which will turn into an M-O, which will turn into an Inlay, which will turn into an endo post core crown, then extraction, bonegraft, implant, crown, and then invisalign to sit on top of the full mouth of implantsto just look cool and they can tell their friends they got invisalign for their implants.

3) "better able to communicate and understand GPs and what their needs are in order to provide a beautiful result for the patient, both functionally as well as cosmetically"

You should understand yourself first before trying to understand others.

What you don't understand is, while you think we need you for referrals, we don't. Good work sells itself. By seeing your lack of perspective, lack of experience, lack of self-awareness, you should be wondering why any orthodontists would be idiotic enough to refer any of their patients back to you, much less agree to treat patients coming as a referral from your office. While you think you are doing us a favor, believe me, the last thing any intelligent person would do, is not treat someone you refer. It makes us look bad...

I hope this helps.

Thank you for your post. I never did understand why so many ortho programs preferred a novice over a seasoned dentist. Now I have a better understanding. It was quite enlightening. Rarely do we get an opportunity to hear such a candid response and gain insight into the psyche of the typical ortho program philosophy on this topic.

For the record, I did 5 years of GP in the Navy before starting my ortho program and I go to one of "those programs" which appreciate general dentist experience/perspective.

Let this be a lesson to all those who have GP experience and are applying to "top tier" ortho programs. Read and re-read the post above. If you miraculously get an interview at one of these schools, don't play into this stereotype. DamonSelfLigation isn't making this philosophy up by herself. It was spoon fed to her from her program. Be careful in your word choice on you personal statement. If anything, at least re-read your statement to see if any of it could be misinterpreted as pertains to what was written above. Be careful what you say when you are at your interview. Don't talk about money or how successful you were. You may think this will make you look better or stand out. Unfortunately, the more you talk about your financial or business success the more they will look at you with disdain.

While I can attest to the truthfulness of some of the stereotypes that DamonSelfLigation has mentioned (we do miss our money and we do want to get out as soon as possible), let me mention some of the reasons why JU faculty have mentioned to me why they have enjoyed working with residents who have GP experience.

1. After you've been practicing exclusively orthodontics for many years, you begin to forget how to think like a general dentist. By bringing in residents with seasoned general dentistry skills, we are continually exposed to GP philosophies and what their concerns are. This keeps us fresh and facilitates improvement in our ortho-GP communication skills.
2. There is a perception that those who have years of practice experience (vs those with dental school only) have better hand skills and bedside manner.

My "second tier" ortho program is heavily clinical. We are taught well and in a manner that will greatly enhance our ability to seamlessly transition into private practice. There is tremendous value in this "no non-sense" type of education, especially when private practice is your ultimate goal. My only complaints about the "second tier" programs are their cost and class size. But there are many "top tier" programs that cost even more or have an equal size.

 

[CaliDDS1986]

Wow, I don't think I've ever read a more conceited and egotistical post. Your pompous way of thinking is exactly why your speciality is in the dumps. I hope you enjoy sitting on your high horse of getting that high class rank. Remind me, do your patients ask you what rank you were? A lot of you orthos think your entitled for doing well in dental school. I did well in dental school too buddy, I just saw the writing on the wall about your crap specialty.

And another thing. I have worked with specialists OS, endo, perio, whatever and no one ever seems to have that complex of we worked hard, we are better than you, like ortho. You better take a long look in the mirror and see if you want to spend the rest of your career looking down on colleagues like you did in dental school. You are not owed anything in life, suck it up if your not making what you thought you were, and pointing fingers at people as to why.

 

[DamonSelfLigation]

Wow, I don't think I've ever read a more conceited and egotistical post. Your pompous way of thinking is exactly why your speciality is in the dumps. I hope you enjoy sitting on your high horse of getting that high class rank. Remind me, do your patients ask you what rank you were? A lot of you orthos think your entitled for doing well in dental school. I did well in dental school too buddy, I just saw the writing on the wall about your crap specialty.

Hi there CaliDDS1986,

I apologize if you think this is conceited and egotistical. My post serves to not just beat around the politically correct BS and I think it would be more useful to the poster rather than rubbing his fur and agreeing with him. You are also one of the general dentists who are misguided and I think you could benefit from "perspective."

The way I think is not why my specialty is in the dumps. First off, I am not one of those who thinks my specialty is in the dumps. So I don't know where you got that from. Orthodontics could not be better and I believe if you can have the opportunity and the dedication to pursue advanced education, by all means. It is far better than educating your patients that there is no difference between the standard of care you provide vs. someone with advanced education in orthodontics. Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

Believe me, people who are extremely successful will not be on SDN bragging about how well they are doing. You are mainly going to be hearing from the people who are confused by how come, after all the years of being top of class, then into dental school, then ortho, and then they thought they were going to be rich and set for life to only realize they have a lot of debt and are having trouble finding their ideal job.

I did get a high class rank, but that doesn't mean anything especially when 90% of the people in your specialty were also high class rank. No one compares. But I can tell you that those who performed well in their dental school, undergrade etc. they share common characteristics that resulted in performing well in school. The ones in your program that did not achieve well and who were not qualified (got in through connections), or who did not share characteristics of a successful student, they stand out. But at least, by specialty training, it pushes those students to learn and be surrounded from successful ones and hopefully by graduation, those characteristics become a part of them. I'd rather be in a class with someone who did not do so well in dental school, but was willing to do what it takes to achieve among those who do.

Patients never ask your class rank, but I can tell you that we can truthfully answer the question from our patients "What is the difference between getting orthodontic treatment from you (general dentist) and an orthodontist." and to hear the creative ways the weekend EC ortho courses teach you, it's quite amusing and borderline unethical. That is a bigger reason for our specialty going in the dumps, compared to you thinking its our entitlement.

No one is entitled for doing well in dental school. However, there is a big difference between those who did well in dental school and those who didn't, far beyond what their class rank was. The grades and rank are a result of the achievement because hey, if it was so easy to get a high class rank, why don't you be the general dentist that had the high rank, had the grades, got the interviews at ortho programs, and chose to become a general dentist; I respect those people that much more, because they have everything it takes to become an orthodontist, but chose to not limit themselves in orthodontics and do what they enjoy. So if this is you, congrats and I admire those traits.

 

[DamonSelfLigation]

Thank you for your post. I never did understand why so many ortho programs preferred a novice over a seasoned dentist. Now I have a better understanding. It was quite enlightening. Rarely do we get an opportunity to hear such a candid response and gain insight into the psyche of the typical ortho program philosophy on this topic.

For the record, I did 5 years of GP in the Navy before starting my ortho program and I go to one of "those programs" which appreciate general dentist experience/perspective.

Let this be a lesson to all those who have GP experience and are applying to "top tier" ortho programs. Read and re-read the post above. If you miraculously get an interview at one of these schools, don't play into this stereotype. DamonSelfLigation isn't making this philosophy up by herself. It was spoon fed to her from her program. Be careful in your word choice on you personal statement. If anything, at least re-read your statement to see if any of it could be misinterpreted as pertains to what was written above. Be careful what you say when you are at your interview. Don't talk about money or how successful you were. You may think this will make you look better or stand out. Unfortunately, the more you talk about your financial or business success the more they will look at you with disdain.

While I can attest to the truthfulness of some of the stereotypes that DamonSelfLigation has mentioned (we do miss our money and we do want to get out as soon as possible), let me mention some of the reasons why JU faculty have mentioned to me why they have enjoyed working with residents who have GP experience.

1. After you've been practicing exclusively orthodontics for many years, you begin to forget how to think like a general dentist. By bringing in residents with seasoned general dentistry skills, we are continually exposed to GP philosophies and what their concerns are. This keeps us fresh and facilitates improvement in our ortho-GP communication skills.
2. There is a perception that those who have years of practice experience (vs those with dental school only) have better hand skills and bedside manner.

My "second tier" ortho program is heavily clinical. We are taught well and in a manner that will greatly enhance our ability to seamlessly transition into private practice. There is tremendous value in this "no non-sense" type of education, especially when private practice is your ultimate goal. My only complaints about the "second tier" programs are their cost and class size. But there are many "top tier" programs that cost even more or have an equal size.

First off, thank you for your service in the Navy. I do not believe your program is a second tier per say, but the fact that you have a lot of students from the middle eastern countries shows that it is a money hungry program. It will actually be easier for you to do well, because most of them go back to their country to practice.

Secondly, this philosophy was not spoon fed by the program to me but I do know and undrstand a lot more about the specialty after being part of it. Mostly because my husband is a general dentist, who I have to share the perspective he doesn't get occasionally.

I think that the GP experience thing is very important, but the perspective of the student matters the most. We are going into our residency to learn about orthodontics. 2 years is barely enough, and 3 years is satisfactory. I think with regarding to restorative, every orthodontist should know every Kokich and Tarnow article like the back of their hand and it's up to the resident to compliment their education with what they don't learn. Learning the philosophy, biomechanics, growth and development, etc. these are the integral part of an orthodontic program. Interdisciplinary concepts are always going to be a part of orthodontics that we have to brush up on because of the evolving technology from both GP and ortho.

I agree that the better handskills and bedside manner. That is extremely difficult for those who haven't worked a day in their life and then graduate from an ortho program and have to get in touch with the real world.

The ideal orthodontic program is one that gives you the foundation and that teaches you to learn or to find the answers to the questions encountered on a daily basis.

For example, there are so many cookbooks out there with the recipe on how to cook a particular meal. But those who can read the recipe and instructions and produce a great product is the one who will "succeed" best in the end. Give that recipe to an orthodontist, a general dentist, a dental hygienist, a non-dental. The orthodontist "should" be able to produce the best product if their program taught them well.

 

[DamonSelfLigation]

And another thing. I have worked with specialists OS, endo, perio, whatever and no one ever seems to have that complex of we worked hard, we are better than you, like ortho. You better take a long look in the mirror and see if you want to spend the rest of your career looking down on colleagues like you did in dental school. You are not owed anything in life, suck it up if your not making what you thought you were, and pointing fingers at people as to why.

Buddy, no one looked down on anyone in dental school. Have you read that guys post? Maybe you should do that before jumping to conclusions.

Orthodontists have a "complex". Maybe its people like you who think that because they got into ortho, they are top students, and they think they are better. Your thinking is just as silly as those who think that those who do successful financially in this field, are doing unethical dentistry etc.

And who is talking about owing anyone in life. No one is talking about not making and no one is pointing any fingers. Once again, you have some chip on your shoulder and I am starting to think that you are one of those people that still don't and never will understand.

 

[Miley Cyrus.]

Buddy, no one looked down on anyone in dental school. Have you read that guys post? Maybe you should do that before jumping to conclusions.

Orthodontists have a "complex". Maybe its people like you who think that because they got into ortho, they are top students, and they think they are better. Your thinking is just as silly as those who think that those who do successful financially in this field, are doing unethical dentistry etc.

And who is talking about owing anyone in life. No one is talking about not making and no one is pointing any fingers. Once again, you have some chip on your shoulder and I am starting to think that you are one of those people that still don't and never will understand.

What do you think about that new program opening up in GA that is taking like 18 ortho residents per year?

Thanks!

 

[smellycarabelli69]

Miley, you always make a sad attempt at trolling orthodontists by referencing the amount of seats Georgia is offering in their new school. I have a question for you. Does the opening of over 5 new dental programs since 2011 and more on the way make you feel nervous about the future of general dentistry? If orthodontics is saturated, general dentistry is way beyond that. I remember a post you made once about how you would move to Georgia and pay these orthodontists pennies. However, your "amazingly innovative" idea to own multiple practices and employ orthodontists/specialists is not so original. Every general dentist dreams of doing something similar. With so much competition and the competition growing due to so many dental schools opening with large classes, midlevel provider laws becoming less restrictive, and overall saturation in almost every major city/suburb in America, what do you think about the future of general dentistry?

 

[Miley Cyrus.]

Miley, you always make a sad attempt at trolling orthodontists by referencing the amount of seats Georgia is offering in their new school. I have a question for you. Does the opening of over 5 new dental programs since 2011 and more on the way make you feel nervous about the future of general dentistry? If orthodontics is saturated, general dentistry is way beyond that. I remember a post you made once about how you would move to Georgia and pay these orthodontists pennies. However, your "amazingly innovative" idea to own multiple practices and employ orthodontists/specialists is not so original. Every general dentist dreams of doing something similar. With so much competition and the competition growing due to so many dental schools opening with large classes, midlevel provider laws becoming less restrictive, and overall saturation in almost every major city/suburb in America, what do you think about the future of general dentistry?

Whoa there buddy!!! Calm down!!! I'm just asking what this guy thinks about this program. I think you are reading too much into this man. Just take a deep breath and relax lol.

 

[DamonSelfLigation]

Whoa there buddy!!! Calm down!!! I'm just asking what this guy thinks about this program. I think you are reading too much into this man. Just take a deep breath and relax lol.

Fair question.. there is no problem asking such questions. I for one, do not get my panties in a bunch when questions like this are asked.

Now the question is.. "What do you think about that new program opening up in GA that is taking like 18 ortho residents per year?"

I think it's great. Great for me, and great for those who are wishing to become an orthodontist but no other program will take them.

There are many ways to answer this question so I can try to answer it with as thorough a response as possible.

With a new program taking in 18 residents per year, this will put but a dent in the orthodontic profession as a whole. Programs like this do not last very long, and will need to reduce the amount of residents they take in, because they will realize that they cannot get enough income to stay afloat and even if it is a place that requires tuition, tuition is not enough to keep a facility like this running.

If you look back, UNLV used to take a substantial amount of residents (16 a year back in 2005), now they are back down to 5 a year. Yes, Roseman university opened up, but they are not expanding, and they are able to take the load of the patients they have currently. Fortunately, the leadership at these programs matter too, I talk to many colleagues on the West coast who would not hire a resident coming from that Roseman program, and would happily take someone from the new director at UNLV (who used to be associated with USC).

The big picture that these programs producing a large amount of orthodotists and the economy not being able to handle them is not a big issue at all. I think the bigger problem would be for the residents who go to these programs and finding a job. I know there are many practicing orthodontists who would not hire someone from these programs because they are not adequately trained. Training at these programs lacks didactics, and this in a big picture will affect the resident at the end of the day. Of course if you have no other option, stay a GP or go to the one program that accepts you, the choice is a no brainer.

The question can be answered the same way I answer the invisalign question. How does it feel that general dentists are doing invisalign? Well if you can do orthodontic treatment at the standard of care of an orthodontist, by all means, do the orthodontic cases. It's always easy to follow a clincheck, but when inadequate or misdiagnosis takes place, the lawsuit is not worth it. They will make sure that general dentist doesn't touch invisalign again, and that is not up to me. You need general dentists doing this lackluster orthodontic care so that orthodontists can justify why it is more expensive (and better) to go to an orthodontist for treatment vs a GP around the corner offering the same "invisalign" product. Likewise, with hiring an orthodontist from a program like this 18 resident one at Georgia vs. someone who went to a program with a longstanding history of good training, good faculty, sought after by orthodontic residents. That is not to say good applicants don't end up at this programs, there are always exceptions, and I am in no way trying to speak poorly of these people (proximity to their significant other, limited options, uncertainty in the match/non-match).

So my answer is, these programs do nothing. The good orthodontists will always continue to do well. If these 18 resident programs aren't milking medicaid for the $3700, some general dentist will open up a few clinics in Georgia and hire 3-4 orthodontists in each and will milk the system anyway. Does that affect orthodontists in Georgia? For the public perception of, why do I have to spend $5000-10,000 at your clinic when I can go to that Corporate that charges only $4700, but that's the patients parent's decision. Try this one, ask the parent "Is your son/daughter worth lackluster orthodontic worth at a significantly less expense? If they are, then go to the corporate."

 

[Miley Cyrus.]

Fair question.. there is no problem asking such questions. I for one, do not get my panties in a bunch when questions like this are asked.

Now the question is.. "What do you think about that new program opening up in GA that is taking like 18 ortho residents per year?"

I think it's great. Great for me, and great for those who are wishing to become an orthodontist but no other program will take them.

There are many ways to answer this question so I can try to answer it with as thorough a response as possible.

With a new program taking in 18 residents per year, this will put but a dent in the orthodontic profession as a whole. Programs like this do not last very long, and will need to reduce the amount of residents they take in, because they will realize that they cannot get enough income to stay afloat and even if it is a place that requires tuition, tuition is not enough to keep a facility like this running.

If you look back, UNLV used to take a substantial amount of residents (16 a year back in 2005), now they are back down to 5 a year. Yes, Roseman university opened up, but they are not expanding, and they are able to take the load of the patients they have currently. Fortunately, the leadership at these programs matter too, I talk to many colleagues on the West coast who would not hire a resident coming from that Roseman program, and would happily take someone from the new director at UNLV (who used to be associated with USC).

The big picture that these programs producing a large amount of orthodotists and the economy not being able to handle them is not a big issue at all. I think the bigger problem would be for the residents who go to these programs and finding a job. I know there are many practicing orthodontists who would not hire someone from these programs because they are not adequately trained. Training at these programs lacks didactics, and this in a big picture will affect the resident at the end of the day. Of course if you have no other option, stay a GP or go to the one program that accepts you, the choice is a no brainer.

The question can be answered the same way I answer the invisalign question. How does it feel that general dentists are doing invisalign? Well if you can do orthodontic treatment at the standard of care of an orthodontist, by all means, do the orthodontic cases. It's always easy to follow a clincheck, but when inadequate or misdiagnosis takes place, the lawsuit is not worth it. They will make sure that general dentist doesn't touch invisalign again, and that is not up to me. You need general dentists doing this lackluster orthodontic care so that orthodontists can justify why it is more expensive (and better) to go to an orthodontist for treatment vs a GP around the corner offering the same "invisalign" product. Likewise, with hiring an orthodontist from a program like this 18 resident one at Georgia vs. someone who went to a program with a longstanding history of good training, good faculty, sought after by orthodontic residents. That is not to say good applicants don't end up at this programs, there are always exceptions, and I am in no way trying to speak poorly of these people (proximity to their significant other, limited options, uncertainty in the match/non-match).

So my answer is, these programs do nothing. The good orthodontists will always continue to do well. If these 18 resident programs aren't milking medicaid for the $3700, some general dentist will open up a few clinics in Georgia and hire 3-4 orthodontists in each and will milk the system anyway. Does that affect orthodontists in Georgia? For the public perception of, why do I have to spend $5000-10,000 at your clinic when I can go to that Corporate that charges only $4700, but that's the patients parent's decision. Try this one, ask the parent "Is your son/daughter worth lackluster orthodontic worth at a significantly less expense? If they are, then go to the corporate."

Thank you very much. That was probably the most insightful and in-depth explanation I have ever received/read regarding the future of orthodontics and ortho education. Thank you.

 

[Tooth]

Fair question.. there is no problem asking such questions. I for one, do not get my panties in a bunch when questions like this are asked.

Now the question is.. "What do you think about that new program opening up in GA that is taking like 18 ortho residents per year?"

I think it's great. Great for me, and great for those who are wishing to become an orthodontist but no other program will take them.

There are many ways to answer this question so I can try to answer it with as thorough a response as possible.

With a new program taking in 18 residents per year, this will put but a dent in the orthodontic profession as a whole. Programs like this do not last very long, and will need to reduce the amount of residents they take in, because they will realize that they cannot get enough income to stay afloat and even if it is a place that requires tuition, tuition is not enough to keep a facility like this running.

If you look back, UNLV used to take a substantial amount of residents (16 a year back in 2005), now they are back down to 5 a year. Yes, Roseman university opened up, but they are not expanding, and they are able to take the load of the patients they have currently. Fortunately, the leadership at these programs matter too, I talk to many colleagues on the West coast who would not hire a resident coming from that Roseman program, and would happily take someone from the new director at UNLV (who used to be associated with USC).

The big picture that these programs producing a large amount of orthodotists and the economy not being able to handle them is not a big issue at all. I think the bigger problem would be for the residents who go to these programs and finding a job. I know there are many practicing orthodontists who would not hire someone from these programs because they are not adequately trained. Training at these programs lacks didactics, and this in a big picture will affect the resident at the end of the day. Of course if you have no other option, stay a GP or go to the one program that accepts you, the choice is a no brainer.

The question can be answered the same way I answer the invisalign question. How does it feel that general dentists are doing invisalign? Well if you can do orthodontic treatment at the standard of care of an orthodontist, by all means, do the orthodontic cases. It's always easy to follow a clincheck, but when inadequate or misdiagnosis takes place, the lawsuit is not worth it. They will make sure that general dentist doesn't touch invisalign again, and that is not up to me. You need general dentists doing this lackluster orthodontic care so that orthodontists can justify why it is more expensive (and better) to go to an orthodontist for treatment vs a GP around the corner offering the same "invisalign" product. Likewise, with hiring an orthodontist from a program like this 18 resident one at Georgia vs. someone who went to a program with a longstanding history of good training, good faculty, sought after by orthodontic residents. That is not to say good applicants don't end up at this programs, there are always exceptions, and I am in no way trying to speak poorly of these people (proximity to their significant other, limited options, uncertainty in the match/non-match).

So my answer is, these programs do nothing. The good orthodontists will always continue to do well. If these 18 resident programs aren't milking medicaid for the $3700, some general dentist will open up a few clinics in Georgia and hire 3-4 orthodontists in each and will milk the system anyway. Does that affect orthodontists in Georgia? For the public perception of, why do I have to spend $5000-10,000 at your clinic when I can go to that Corporate that charges only $4700, but that's the patients parent's decision. Try this one, ask the parent "Is your son/daughter worth lackluster orthodontic worth at a significantly less expense? If they are, then go to the corporate."

I got the impression from some of the residents who graduated before me at JU that they were embarrassed to mention they were from JU while job hunting. Several stated that potential employers made them feel uncomfortable about them coming from JU. Many employers don't care though. They just want a warm body and are willing to pay big bucks no matter where you are from. JU has been around for around 12 years now. With a class size of 15, that means it has pushed out 180 orthodontists. To put that in perspective, it would take 36 years for a program with a class size of 5 to produce the same amount of orthodontists as JU has produced in the last 12. So, the way I see it, this mentality of animosity against large and clinically heavy programs will change over time due to exponential growth. Before long, there will be more orthodontists from second tier programs than first tier programs and our graduates will be the norm. I don't know if UNLV shrunk from 16 to 5 because they couldn't stay open. I was under the impression that social pressures from the orthodontic community played a larger roll. Let's put it this way. I don't see anyone calling UNLV a second tier program anymore. The education at JU is excellent, from my point of view. Yes, we don't have a heavily didactic component but you can't just blow off the value of getting heavy clinical experience. On average we start and finish 70+ cases in just 2 years. We have all met many graduates from many different programs in our careers. Whatever the program is (be it perio, endo, os, whatever), there are programs that are heavily clinical and those that are heavily didactic. I, for one, have been very impressed by the knowledge base of graduates from didactically strong programs only to be disappointed later when I realized they couldn't do what they knew needed to be done. Whichever program you think is better has a lot to do with where you came from. From my perspective, it's one thing to read a book and know what you're supposed to do and it is another thing to be able to get in a patient's mouth and be able to do it. Personally, I would prefer to be able to do it when I graduate instead of just talk about it or have talked about it. In other words, it's a two way street. Soon enough, there will be more orthodontists who have had a heavily clinical experience and they will be judging the people who relatively just read books as being incapable or unprepared to perform the job in comparison to those who studied at second tier programs.