Current Orthodontist vs General Dentist Salaries

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Andre3k

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I am strongly considering doing Ortho and I really like the orthodontics. However despite my interest, after doing some shadowing I am not sure if it would be the best move from a financial stand point granted the amount of additional time in school necessary (2-3yrs) and the additional debt. A couple of the Orthodontists I shadowed expressed concern that it is getting more difficult to find jobs. They also said the state of the economy has reduced the number of patients that can afford orthodontic treatment and that because most general dentists are doing Invisalign there are fewer patients being referred to orthodontists. Usually only class II, class III, or more difficult cases. I spoke to an Orthodontist that graduated 3 yrs ago and his salary is around 140k. That seems very low. He said most of his friends that are general dentists make more than him.
Does anyone on here have any information regarding the current trends in Orthodontists salaries and job availability? What is the average starting salary for a orthodontist currently? How does that compare to the starting salaries of general dentists currently?

Any information any of you can provide would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks.

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Location. Location. Location.

It sounds like you are in an overpopulated (with dentists and ortho) area, which means it most likely isn't worth the extra years or just pick a different area where ortho is doing well. Here in Texas I know ortho's that make literally more than 400k+ working 16 days a month.

Ortho makes a lot of money depending once again on location and evne business accumen. General dentists are able to make as much or more if they are smart. Tha means being able to do small ortho cases, some oral surgery, deals with kids, in rural area. Pretty much, if you really like orthodontics and you have what it takes to get into the residency (I guess its called?) then take it. Because ortho is not overpopulated in many regions and make a lot of money.

Oh and you help people get self confidence, pretty smile, etc.
 
Plenty of orthodontists in Texas are looking for jobs - They stop by my office weekly hoping for work
 
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I am strongly considering doing Ortho and I really like the orthodontics. However despite my interest, after doing some shadowing I am not sure if it would be the best move from a financial stand point granted the amount of additional time in school necessary (2-3yrs) and the additional debt. A couple of the Orthodontists I shadowed expressed concern that it is getting more difficult to find jobs. They also said the state of the economy has reduced the number of patients that can afford orthodontic treatment and that because most general dentists are doing Invisalign there are fewer patients being referred to orthodontists. Usually only class II, class III, or more difficult cases. I spoke to an Orthodontist that graduated 3 yrs ago and his salary is around 140k. That seems very low. He said most of his friends that are general dentists make more than him.
Does anyone on here have any information regarding the current trends in Orthodontists salaries and job availability? What is the average starting salary for a orthodontist currently? How does that compare to the starting salaries of general dentists currently?

Any information any of you can provide would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks.
Most new grad orthodontists won't be able to get full time (20-22 days/month) job at one place. For me to get 11 days/month, I have to travel to 2 different chain clinics. I work 11 days/month at 3 of my own private practices. And one day a month at my sister's GP practice. Why is that? Because an ortho can see 60-80 patients a day, which is 5-6 more times than what a GP can see.

The orthodontist, who told you he only makes $140k/year, probably only works 6-7 days a month. This is probably the only associate job he/she can find. He is probably unwilling to drive farther to get a second associate job. He is probably too afraid to take risk to set up his own office.

Efficiency and low overhead are the key ingredients for success in ortho. Ortho should be the specialty with the lowest overhead. There is not much lab fee because most ortho appliances (RPE, quad, essix retainers) can be made in-house by the assistants. Ortho brackets and wires are dirt cheap. From reading many posts on the orthotown forum, I realize many of my ortho colleagues have wasted too much time and money dealing with the ortho software, training the staff how to use computer, calling tech support to fix the computer system, problems with backing up files remotely etc. With the paper charts and low tech equipments, I still end up seeing a lot more patients and work fewer hours (only 4 hrs a day) than the guys who have all these high tech gadgets.
 
Charlestweed how do you think orthodontics compares to endodontics in immediate and potential income?
 
Most new grad orthodontists won't be able to get full time (20-22 days/month) job at one place. For me to get 11 days/month, I have to travel to 2 different chain clinics. I work 11 days/month at 3 of my own private practices. And one day a month at my sister's GP practice. Why is that? Because an ortho can see 60-80 patients a day, which is 5-6 more times than what a GP can see.

The orthodontist, who told you he only makes $140k/year, probably only works 6-7 days a month. This is probably the only associate job he/she can find. He is probably unwilling to drive farther to get a second associate job. He is probably too afraid to take risk to set up his own office. .

I dunno, if I were an ortho resident in 350k+ debt I'd be willing to make the effort to get as many jobs as possible. All of the residents at my school had tough times finding any jobs so they all just flooded Texas, the gravy train will stop there soon too. Ortho is a tough field right now, there's no if ands or buts about it. But so is dentistry in general, bottom-line don't do something cuz u think it's easy or u will make a ton of money. Do it because u like it because gps may be hurting right now, but specialists hurt double during tough economic times. Don't believe me? ask anyone in the job market right now
 
Charlestweed how do you think orthodontics compares to endodontics in immediate and potential income?
If you look at the amount of doctor's time spent for each patient and amount of money he/she collects from each patient, nothing beats ortho because the ortho assistants do 90% of the hard work.

Like OS and perio, endo practice relies 100% on the referrals from the GPs. Ortho relies less on the referrals from the GPs. As more and more patients know about my ortho practices, I rely less on the referrals from the GPs. The success of an endo practice pretty much depends on how good the endodontist communicates with the GPs. Endos also have to deal with emergencies....not so much for ortho.
 
If you look at the amount of doctor's time spent for each patient and amount of money he/she collects from each patient, nothing beats ortho because the ortho assistants do 90% of the hard work.

There is "hard work" in ortho?
 
I dunno, if I were an ortho resident in 350k+ debt I'd be willing to make the effort to get as many jobs as possible. All of the residents at my school had tough times finding any jobs so they all just flooded Texas, the gravy train will stop there soon too. Ortho is a tough field right now, there's no if ands or buts about it. But so is dentistry in general, bottom-line don't do something cuz u think it's easy or u will make a ton of money. Do it because u like it because gps may be hurting right now, but specialists hurt double during tough economic times. Don't believe me? ask anyone in the job market right now
Success requires hard work. The problem is many new grad orthos want instant gratification and they would not accept anything less than $1000 a day. If I didn't have a job, I would take any job even if it only paid me $300 a day. Having a job is better than having none. And when they can't find job, they are not willing to take risk to set up their own practice.

I am in a much worse market (Southern California). English is not my first language (I came to the US when I was 16). I am a very timid person. I am afraid to invite the GPs for lunch because I always feel insecure about my English. Even with all of these limitations, I still managed to set up 3 ortho practices and they are doing better than what I expected. If I can do it so can you.
 
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I read that bending the wires was a challenge? Or is this an orthodontist's attempt at making their work seem challenging? Is a $1000 a day a lot for an orthodontist?
 
Success requires hard work. The problem is many new grad orthos want instant gratification and they would not accept anything less than $1000 a day. If I didn’t have a job, I would take any job even if it only paid me $300 a day. Having a job is better than having none. And when they can’t find job, they are not willing to take risk to set up their own practice.

I am in a much worse market (Southern California). English is not my first language (I came to the US when I was 16). I am a very timid person. I am afraid to invite the GPs for lunch because I always feel insecure about my English. Even with all of these limitations, I still managed to set up 3 ortho practices and they are doing better than what I expected. If I can do it so can you.

Exactly, agree 100%. it's an entitlement issue. Grads think just because extra schooling it's extra money. This applies to gps too and other specialties. Hard work doesn't stop at the end of dental school or residency, it continues for many years.
 
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This is my take on the situation, please correct me if I'm wrong!

It's funny that even though the economy hasn't rebounded, new ortho programs have opened up across the country. Clearly some of these are business ventures in themselves, as they charge a good chunk of tuition. Some of these programs will take pretty much anyone with the $$$. Not only does this cheapen the profession but it creates an oversupply of orthodontists. Obviously we're limited in what we can do to control this, and I can only hope it doesn't happen to OMFS
 
Success requires hard work. The problem is many new grad orthos want instant gratification and they would not accept anything less than $1000 a day. If I didn’t have a job, I would take any job even if it only paid me $300 a day. Having a job is better than having none. And when they can’t find job, they are not willing to take risk to set up their own practice.

I am in a much worse market (Southern California). English is not my first language (I came to the US when I was 16). I am a very timid person. I am afraid to invite the GPs for lunch because I always feel insecure about my English. Even with all of these limitations, I still managed to set up 3 ortho practices and they are doing better than what I expected. If I can do it so can you.

tweed. I bet if I took you out for a $300 lunch, I'd have a great ROI.
 
The best ROI would be starting your own ortho program. Forget about starting your own practice, your program doesn't even have to be affiliated with a dental school. Start a program out of your garage, fill out a few papers for "accreditation", and charge $100K+ tuition for 15 residents a year for a 3 year program for a cool $4.5 million/year revenue stream.
 
This is my take on the situation, please correct me if I'm wrong!

It's funny that even though the economy hasn't rebounded, new ortho programs have opened up across the country. Clearly some of these are business ventures in themselves, as they charge a good chunk of tuition. Some of these programs will take pretty much anyone with the $$$. Not only does this cheapen the profession but it creates an oversupply of orthodontists. Obviously we're limited in what we can do to control this, and I can only hope it doesn't happen to OMFS

The thing is though, over the last 20 years or so, orthodontics has become such a common place item, dare I say it almost a "right of passage" for an adolescent these days, that the vast majority of parents out there today start mentally planning from the day that they see their infant's first primary tooth erupt that when their child is somewhere around age 13 that they'll be needed ortho tx and as a parent they'll be making payments on that treatment for a few years. Whereas as in the past, while the need for ortho tx was appreciated by most, it did have much more of an optional sense to it.

Anecdotally, I notice in my own practice, which isn't exactly located in a mega affluent metropolis part of CT, that when I make an ortho referral that 90%+ will comply with that referral, with the going rate for ortho tx in my area being about 6k. And that compliance rate has changed much, at all, over the last few years.

It's this successful transference from being more of a somewhat optional thing, to much more of an essentially expected thing over the last 20+ years or so that I feel has been quite successful on behalf of the educational portion of both the ortho community and also the general dental community in conveying just how important and valuable a nice smile is that has caused this
 
I think these days no matter what area of dentistry you are in the market is tough, maybe tougher for specialists. If I was a specialist I wouldn't even set up an office I would work as a private contractor traveling to dental offices that I have an agreement with to do in house work, this is where the money is. At the office Im at we have an OS that comes and takes out thirds twice a month and he brings his own assistant/equipment we dont have. This guy is busy all day and the office gets 40% of what he bills. A win for the patient/referring doc/and specialist. The OS told me he works 4 days a week btwn the offices he has an agreement with. Just from what I have seen what he bills at our office he must do 800k+ a year. I think ortho/endo/perio could easily practice this way.
 
I think these days no matter what area of dentistry you are in the market is tough, maybe tougher for specialists. If I was a specialist I wouldn't even set up an office I would work as a private contractor traveling to dental offices that I have an agreement with to do in house work, this is where the money is. At the office Im at we have an OS that comes and takes out thirds twice a month and he brings his own assistant/equipment we dont have. This guy is busy all day and the office gets 40% of what he bills. A win for the patient/referring doc/and specialist. The OS told me he works 4 days a week btwn the offices he has an agreement with. Just from what I have seen what he bills at our office he must do 800k+ a year. I think ortho/endo/perio could easily practice this way.

Ortho is a little different because when the contractor orthodontist leaves, it creates a big mess for the GP owner to find a replacement ortho to finish the cases (and possible abandonment issues if a replacement can't be found). If the agreement is on a % collection, the next orthodontist gets ripped off on cases that have already been paid off but the work has not been completed.
 
The best ROI would be starting your own ortho program. Forget about starting your own practice, your program doesn't even have to be affiliated with a dental school. Start a program out of your garage, fill out a few papers for "accreditation", and charge $100K+ tuition for 15 residents a year for a 3 year program for a cool $4.5 million/year revenue stream.

Hey now, that was my idea from a few years ago! Problem was, I didn't have a garage.

I think these days no matter what area of dentistry you are in the market is tough, maybe tougher for specialists. If I was a specialist I wouldn't even set up an office I would work as a private contractor traveling to dental offices that I have an agreement with to do in house work, this is where the money is. At the office Im at we have an OS that comes and takes out thirds twice a month and he brings his own assistant/equipment we dont have. This guy is busy all day and the office gets 40% of what he bills. A win for the patient/referring doc/and specialist. The OS told me he works 4 days a week btwn the offices he has an agreement with. Just from what I have seen what he bills at our office he must do 800k+ a year. I think ortho/endo/perio could easily practice this way.

This method of practicing blows unless the orthodontist is in control of the staff and supplies for seeing those patients within a GP office. If the GP office is in charge of staffing, well then I swear the assistants draw straws in the morning to see who is going to "get stuck" working with the orthodontist. I get either the most newbie assistant or even no assistant at some of these places. Once place, I had decent assistants dedicated to only my ortho patients, but the front desk at that office was beyond control. Couldn't get them to schedule the patients properly, chase the no-shows, keep up with collecting on accounts, handle emergency phone calls, etc. At another office, I was told that they would buy me any supplies I needed. 6 months later, they're trying to clawback $3000 worth of supplies saying I shouldn't have needed so many supplies. I have GP friends who thought "keeping the ortho in-house" would be a great idea and now 5 years later they can't wait to throw a party when the last ortho patient is finally out of their office and all future ortho patients are given a referral slip.
 
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Most new grad orthodontists won't be able to get full time (20-22 days/month) job at one place. For me to get 11 days/month, I have to travel to 2 different chain clinics. I work 11 days/month at 3 of my own private practices. And one day a month at my sister's GP practice. Why is that? Because an ortho can see 60-80 patients a day, which is 5-6 more times than what a GP can see.

The orthodontist, who told you he only makes $140k/year, probably only works 6-7 days a month. This is probably the only associate job he/she can find. He is probably unwilling to drive farther to get a second associate job. He is probably too afraid to take risk to set up his own office.

Efficiency and low overhead are the key ingredients for success in ortho. Ortho should be the specialty with the lowest overhead. There is not much lab fee because most ortho appliances (RPE, quad, essix retainers) can be made in-house by the assistants. Ortho brackets and wires are dirt cheap. From reading many posts on the orthotown forum, I realize many of my ortho colleagues have wasted too much time and money dealing with the ortho software, training the staff how to use computer, calling tech support to fix the computer system, problems with backing up files remotely etc. With the paper charts and low tech equipments, I still end up seeing a lot more patients and work fewer hours (only 4 hrs a day) than the guys who have all these high tech gadgets.

Listen to CT he knows what he's talking about. If I were doing it all over again, I wouldn't even open an office. I would rent space out of other nice offices and rent a small Regus call center to handle scheduling. With remote desktop computing, you can do a lot of stuff digitally. I disagree that you don't need good software. The software helps in managing the patients.
I opened my office 6 years ago and had a side job. In 6 year, I've only been able to build it to a 2 day/week office. Next, I rented space in a periodontists office and built that into a 1 day/week office. Then recently, I rented a former general dentists office cheap that had been abandoned and made that our 3rd office. 3 locations, 3 rents, 3 utility bills, 3 advertising zones just to get enough patients to work a 4 day work week. I'm bringing in an OS to handle all of our wisdom teeth (we refer out $200,000/yr). When I finally get enough patients built up to pay bills and make a little money, that's when the general dentists decide that they want to do ortho because I'm such a baller.
My advice to you is to open a small affordable office, try to find one that is already built out. Get a side job and work it as much as possible. Then when you make some money don't buy a house or lambo, find another cheap location. It's hard to get 5-6K for ortho these days, especially when you look young. My fees are in the 3k range. I think CT is in the 2K range (I'm not sure how he does it). Good luck.
 
Listen to CT he knows what he's talking about.
Thank you. I didn't come up with all these business tricks myself. I learned from the successful orthos who opened their practices before me. I learned from working as an associate.
....My fees are in the 3k range. I think CT is in the 2K range (I'm not sure how he does it).
How?
-By starting twice as many new cases per month as the guy who charges $5-6k a case. To maintain the consistent number of new starts every month, I keep my fees affordable.

-To handle higher volume of patients, I double the number of ortho assistants. Instead of spending $2-3k more every month to rent a larger office space, I use that amount to hire 2-4 part time assistants (depends on the number of patients on the appoitment book). That's the beauty about ortho: seeing twice as many patients doesn't mean that the doctor has to work twice as hard. It doesn't matter if I have 50 or 80 patients a day….I still only work 4 hours a day.

-I try to consistently produce great treatment results. Word-of-month is the best referral source. Patients wouldn't come to my office if my works were so horrible. They wouldn't come even if I charge $1000 a case.

-Being efficient is the key. I try to use effective (but simple) ortho mechanics so my staff can understand. I try to finish the cases on time because the more cases I fail to finish on time, the harder I'd have to work and the less profit I'd earn.

My orthodontist charged me $2400 for my ortho tx (24-months 4 bi extraction case)…a discount for being a dental student at UCLA. My brother paid $2800 for his 24-month ortho tx. And his orthodontist drove the S-Class Mercedes. That's when I realized that ortho is a very profitable specialty and I didn't have to charge $5k a case in order to survive.
 
I know a lot of Texas orthos were let go due to the Medicaid scandal but I doubt they're coming to you weekly (I hope you were exaggerating!)
 
Thank you. I didn’t come up with all these business tricks myself. I learned from the successful orthos who opened their practices before me. I learned from working as an associate.

How?
-By starting twice as many new cases per month as the guy who charges $5-6k a case. To maintain the consistent number of new starts every month, I keep my fees affordable.

-To handle higher volume of patients, I double the number of ortho assistants. Instead of spending $2-3k more every month to rent a larger office space, I use that amount to hire 2-4 part time assistants (depends on the number of patients on the appoitment book). That’s the beauty about ortho: seeing twice as many patients doesn’t mean that the doctor has to work twice as hard. It doesn’t matter if I have 50 or 80 patients a day….I still only work 4 hours a day.

-I try to consistently produce great treatment results. Word-of-month is the best referral source. Patients wouldn’t come to my office if my works were so horrible. They wouldn’t come even if I charge $1000 a case.

-Being efficient is the key. I try to use effective (but simple) ortho mechanics so my staff can understand. I try to finish the cases on time because the more cases I fail to finish on time, the harder I’d have to work and the less profit I’d earn.

My orthodontist charged me $2400 for my ortho tx (24-months 4 bi extraction case)…a discount for being a dental student at UCLA. My brother paid $2800 for his 24-month ortho tx. And his orthodontist drove the S-Class Mercedes. That’s when I realized that ortho is a very profitable specialty and I didn’t have to charge $5k a case in order to survive.

For people reading these posts, you should know there is more than 1 way to skin a cat. I associated for a year, then started my own . First 6 months I was 1 day/week, then 2 days/week, and now after 24 months, I'm 4 days/week. I still work at that associate job 1 day/week, kind of because loyalty to the boss. Yes I charge 6K /case. My overhead is very reasonable, I am digital/paperless. Use software, it helps you track the trajectory of the practice, and statistically analyze all sorts of things. And increases efficiency. I'm not going to start patting myself on the back, but yes I like to think we are very cost-effective and efficient as well.

Do your research in terms of location location location!!!! I spent over 300 cumulative hours researching my office location. Based on my experience and feedback from colleagues, renting in another office dental brings on a lot of headaches in terms of inventory, continuity of care, staff turnover. Not to mention skeptical referrers.

I realize some you starting on your own will take significantly longer to get up to 4 days/week..so I agree, definitely keep the side associate jobs. Don't depend on income from your start up.

When you do start up, try to find a "small" office that had a dentist in it previously (plumbed), and remember you have a lot of negotiating power , the majority of the country has an excess of available commercial spaces. Modernize the office, make it look appealing, and go for it. Your work is worth a minimum of 5K/case. I look young too, I'm regularly asked when I graduated. Use it to your advantage.
 
For people reading these posts, you should know there is more than 1 way to skin a cat. I associated for a year, then started my own . First 6 months I was 1 day/week, then 2 days/week, and now after 24 months, I'm 4 days/week. I still work at that associate job 1 day/week, kind of because loyalty to the boss. Yes I charge 6K /case. My overhead is very reasonable, I am digital/paperless. Use software, it helps you track the trajectory of the practice, and statistically analyze all sorts of things. And increases efficiency. I'm not going to start patting myself on the back, but yes I like to think we are very cost-effective and efficient as well.

Do your research in terms of location location location!!!! I spent over 300 cumulative hours researching my office location. Based on my experience and feedback from colleagues, renting in another office dental brings on a lot of headaches in terms of inventory, continuity of care, staff turnover. Not to mention skeptical referrers.

I realize some you starting on your own will take significantly longer to get up to 4 days/week..so I agree, definitely keep the side associate jobs. Don't depend on income from your start up.

When you do start up, try to find a "small" office that had a dentist in it previously (plumbed), and remember you have a lot of negotiating power , the majority of the country has an excess of available commercial spaces. Modernize the office, make it look appealing, and go for it. Your work is worth a minimum of 5K/case. I look young too, I'm regularly asked when I graduated. Use it to your advantage.
Another successful story from an orthodontist who has only been out for 2 years. Congrats! S-File.

Not being able to find full time associate job is actually a good thing because you will be forced to create more workdays for yourself by setting up your own office like what S-File and I did. Being your own boss should be your ultimate goal. You can’t just work for someone else forever. You have the top degree (an ortho certificate) and you live in America, the land of opportunities. The probability of failure should be very low.

If you think your work is worth more than $6k a case, you should do what S-File did. But if you want to live in a more desirable area (ie California) and are too lazy to do research for an ideal office location, then learn to keep overhead low. You can’t go wrong with lean and mean overhead. With the overhead of $8k a month (that’s the average overhead at each of my 3 offices), you only need to start 4 new cases a month to break even. If you charge $6k a case, then you only to start 2 new cases a month to break even. If you are not able to get 4 new cases for the entire month, then there must be something wrong with your clinical skills or your chairside manner.
 
I am interested in Ortho, Endo, and Perio.

Is it possible to make 400K after taxes? How long would it take to build up that sort of practice?

Thanks! all the best!
 
The best ROI would be starting your own ortho program. Forget about starting your own practice, your program doesn't even have to be affiliated with a dental school. Start a program out of your garage, fill out a few papers for "accreditation", and charge $100K+ tuition for 15 residents a year for a 3 year program for a cool $4.5 million/year revenue stream.

Can someone elaborate on this?
 
:laugh::laugh::laugh: If you want to make a quick $100,000, advertise that you are accepting applications for a new orthodontic program under initial accreditation. Charge a non-refundable $100 application fee, and you should have no problem receiving 1,000+ applications (not including foreign applicants so your profit can go wayyyy up).
 
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:laugh::laugh::laugh: If you want to make a quick $100,000, advertise that you are accepting applications for a new orthodontic program under initial accreditation. Charge a non-refundable $100 application fee, and you should have no problem receiving 1,000+ applications (not including foreign applicants so your profit can go wayyyy up).

hmmm. I think I might actually give this a go.
 
I am interested in Ortho, Endo, and Perio.

Is it possible to make 400K after taxes? How long would it take to build up that sort of practice?

Thanks! all the best!

be a GP, you can do everything and anything you want.
if money is your goal, there's other easier ways than becoming a dentist. You won't be rich from being a dentist.
 
The BEST WAY to make money as a dentist, in my opinion since all venues are gone due to oversat, etc:

1) Learn foreign languages, such as Mandarin, Hindi, etc.
2) California has just started accrediting international dental schools, so international dentists can just hop right in, without anything else. This is why you open up an ortho residency, that charges $50-100K/ yr and that caters to the foreign trained dentists (see step 1). Most that want to come, have quite a bit of money, as I have learned from numerous sources.
3) Become a millionaire overnight. Run for politics and tell WG Kellog Foundation that if elected, you will push through legislation that allows complete autonomy for dental therapists, allowing them to do braces, etc. Get paid off by WG Kellog Foundation, DeVry, and all other for profit schools. Don't forget to promise the American people as much free stuff as you can.
4) If you still have a little bit of energy left, run for president of the United States.

The. END.
 
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