-

[deleted562805]

A word of caution regarding the BLS stats. They generally lag behind a few years and more probably more indicative of the immediate future (maybe the next year or two) rather than the next 5 to 10 years. They're updated every couple of years for a reason. Other times, things just happen that can't be accounted for (the dot-com bubble, real estate bubble, and most recently COVID). Regardless, they're the most standardized and informative data that we have and I'm not denying the stats for these respective jobs.

You can self-teach programming languages to whatever skill level you can. At a certain point, talent acquisition will have to filter out applicants; will they interview the person with a degree or the applicant who says they're self-taught? Besides having the degree, colleges have internships and job fairs which aren't offered to independent learners/bootcamps. These people *could* develop their own startup or app. But let's be honest. 99.99% of them fail for any number of reasons. They could earn millions but only because they're so likely to fail and the risk is so great.

Once you're hired, skill does become more important in CS. But a lot of people seem to forget one simple fact. They're simply not as good as they think they are. A lot of projects are done in teams and your code is constantly reviewed by others making it very easy to see how good and/or bad you are. Remember that 50% of the people at any workplace is below average; are people that certain that they're more skilled than their colleagues?

My point is that CS really isn't for everybody even though people make it seem that they can just take a few classes and drop right in. If you're not talented in it, you either may as well stay in pharmacy (if you already have the job) or pick a different profession altogether.

Pleases cite source on your statistic regarding 99.9% percent businesses fail. If that was the case, there would be no Microsoft, Facebook. And so what if a business fails, learn from it and create a better app or company. Yet, there are people who defied the odds to build major corporations or create small start up apps like Postmates, Ship toGo, Uber etc. those start up apps succeeded because there was a demand in those areas. There are tons of startup companies that take applicants without CS degrees. The ones who are picky are major corporations: google, apple,Facebook, and Tesla. Etc. But you are correct that a degree in CS does have its advantages like job fairs etc. And you are correct that major corporations hire mainly people with CS degrees

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[TheBlaah]

Pleases show me a source that on the statistic of ninety nine percent of business fail. You are making generalizations without any quantifiable data. There are tons of startup companies that take applicants without CS degrees. The ones who are picky are major corporations: google, apple,Facebook, and Tesla. Etc.

Gartner Says Less Than 0.01 Percent of Consumer Mobile Apps Will Be Considered a Financial Success by Their Developers Through 2018

Gartner Special Report Examines Predictions for the Year Ahead

www.gartner.com

It is specific to startup apps. However, most startup businesses fail as well, though the percentages vary depending on the specific industry. But if a new grad bootcamp delevoper is creating a startup, it's probably an app as otherwise there'd be a need for quite a large amount of initial capital otherwise at a much higher risk.

I didn't say applicants without degrees can't get jobs, though I did imply that it'll be more difficult to. The initial jobs that they do get are not gonna be great though.

 

[deleted562805]

Gartner Says Less Than 0.01 Percent of Consumer Mobile Apps Will Be Considered a Financial Success by Their Developers Through 2018

Gartner Special Report Examines Predictions for the Year Ahead

www.gartner.com

It is specific to startup apps. However, most startup businesses fail as well, though the percentages vary depending on the specific industry. But if a new grad bootcamp delevoper is creating a startup, it's probably an app as otherwise there'd be a need for quite a large amount of initial capital otherwise at a much higher risk.

I didn't say applicants without degrees can't get jobs, though I did imply that it'll be more difficult to. The initial jobs that they do get are not gonna be great though.

True, but at the end of day it is all based on the demand in that specific area. So it is not really an absolute statement. The business fails or app fails because maybe there is no demand in that particular area or like you pointed out too much capital. Everything is a risk not just entrepreneur. There are plenty of “safe” jobs that are risks in reality. If you play to safe all the time, you will never succeed and will always be complacent. The statement maybe true but it is not an absolute because it is not going to stop people from creating apps or starting their own business.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I guess it's a good idea I'm willing to be flexible when it comes to getting a CS job post-graduation, because I just got done talking to someone who works for a FAANG company who told me that there's a very high likelihood that I'll be discriminated against by the HR dep'ts. of most of the large you've-heard-of-them tech companies (as well as startups) due to my age being early 30s. He said I should still be able to get a CS/SWE job at a non-tech company or maybe at a smaller one outside of the Bay Area and Silicon Valley, but otherwise it's going to be an uphill battle for me to have a shot with the most desirable companies.

... Oh well, I suppose that's still a better outcome than what I'm looking at getting with pharmacy, right?

 

[projektreverb]

I clicked on OPs profile. From PA, right outside of Philadelphia. Yikes.

 

[Rphonthecome]

View attachment 307452
I clicked on OPs profile. From PA, right outside of Philadelphia. Yikes.

This is crazy $46!!! I wonder what their lowest offer would be next. I can’t believe we will be making less nurses in the near future.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[projektreverb]

This is crazy $46!!! I wonder what their lowest offer would be next. I can’t believe we will be making less nurses in the near future.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The big question is then how many hours are they getting? I doubt it’s full time! It truly is insane!

 

[Sine Cura]

To new grads becoming grist for the retail mill:

Why would lower rates be scary? You didn't do it just for the money right. You also had a plan to pay off your student loans knowing fully what awaited you right.

 

[Rphonthecome]

To new grads becoming grist for the retail mill:

Why would lower rates be scary? You didn't do it just for the money right. You also had a plan to pay off your student loans knowing fully what awaited you right.

Another sarcastic , unnecessary comment making fun of peoples lives and future. Congrats !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Sine Cura]

Another sarcastic , unnecessary comment making fun of peoples lives and future. Congrats !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You said $46 is crazy so yeah I'm calling you out

 

[Rphonthecome]

You said $46 is crazy so yeah I'm calling you out

It is crazy , if you even put it in your head that most students are leaving with close to 250$ thousand in loans. Your comment is still sarcastic and irrelevant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Rphonthecome]

The big question is then how many hours are they getting? I doubt it’s full time! It truly is insane!

I agree , last I heard most aren’t even getting the full 32 hours so it will be interesting to see how many hours for this offers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SFCA2020]

The big question is then how many hours are they getting? I doubt it’s full time! It truly is insane!

I may have 0 hours, 24, 32 is my dream.

 

[Rphonthecome]

I may have 0 hours, 24, 32 is my dream.

so no guaranteed hours? where are you located

 

[projektreverb]

I may have 0 hours, 24, 32 is my dream.

Wait, no guaranteed hours?

 

[Mambo#5]

If you don’t have something positive or additional to say to the topic being discussed. Just keep your sarcastic comments to yourself.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

People have asked that question umpteen times about saturation in Texas and Florida. Do some research. With your education you should be able to figure out how to get quality answers. It’s not hard. A simple search, or pick up the phone and call and speak w a pharmacist, peruse this site or Reddit. Google unemployed pharmacist (way more results than when I graduated lol)

I’ll give u the short version though. Florida and Texas are saturated....supersaturated. Every state is saturated. If you see an opening, trust me that job ain’t no peaches n cream. What more do people have to say? It was saturated b4 this recession. What you think it’s gone be like now.........or later? Ain’t no jobs. Want me to spell it out?

T H E R E A R E N O J O B S !
P H A R M A C Y I S S A T U R A T E D !

Got it?

 

[SFCA2020]

I meant no job offer yet. 5 job interviews so far...

 

[SFCA2020]

People have asked that question umpteen times about saturation in Texas and Florida. Do some research. With your education you should be able to figure out how to get quality answers. It’s not hard. A simple search, or pick up the phone and call and speak w a pharmacist, peruse this site or Reddit. Google unemployed pharmacist (way more results than when I graduated lol)

I’ll give u the short version though. Florida and Texas are saturated....supersaturated. Every state is saturated. If you see an opening, trust me that job ain’t no peaches n cream. What more do people have to say? It was saturated b4 this recession. What you think it’s gone be like now.........or later? Ain’t no jobs. Want me to spell it out?

T H E R E A R E N O J O B S !
P H A R M A C Y I S S A T U R A T E D !

Got it?

Actually searching for jobs won't get the right answer. I search every single day and tens of new pharmacist jobs come up.
Only when you apply and wait to hear back, then you know the correct answer.

 

[mentos]

So what I’m hearing is: I’m jumping ahead of the CS saturation to make some short term money. So you’re buying yourself a few years. What’s your plan when the CS saturation hits?

CS can't be compared to pharmacy. It's very simple.

Pharmacy: anyone can get a PharmD - literally people with 2.XX GPAs, dental school rejects who did not apply to pharmacy school, physical therapy rejects who did not apply to pharmacy school etc. It is not easy but anyone can get a PharmD if they study hard enough and retake as many courses as they need to.

CS: you have to know what you're doing to get a degree. Exams are not multiple choice. If you can't code then you simply won't pass. You can literally get a zero on an exam.

Pharmacists: they are a liability that do not generate income. They are completely business overhead, just like technicians, the electric bill, etc but much more expensive. Businesses would get rid of them if they could.

CS: the coders/engineers are assets that produce revenue for the company. They have billable hours and create profit generating products. If they do not produce results, they lose their job quickly.

There's just no comparison. CS will never reach the level of saturation as pharmacy in our lifetime.

 

[Mambo#5]

Actually searching for jobs won't get the right answer. I search every single day and tens of new pharmacist jobs come up.
Only when you apply and wait to hear back, then you know the correct answer.

That’s true of jobs like on indeed. So when I graduated I thought why not go to the CVS or Walgreens sites and search jobs throughout the country to figure out what areas might have more. Try that. There’s not many. If you do look at indeed or sites like that you might notice that you continually see the same positions open up every couple months. You might draw your own conclusions as to why that is.

A better study that I did then too to get an idea was post a job ad myself to see the response. That’s an eye opener. To wait and see about a response like you did, isn’t that great of a study. You could send about 300 resumes (assuming you find 300 jobs) out and develop stats on that.

What’s really telling is when you speak to other pharmacists, say in the chains or when you find that many pharmacists have moved from many states just to get a job, that’s telling. Example: last job there were 6 pharmacists who moved from 6 different states to get a job that only guaranteed 6 months of work (that was slightly under 50% of the pharmacists in that cohort. Another example, I called a Target in Alaska and happened to speak with a pharmacist that was just hired on that had moved there from Phoenix and was a new grad who said that “It was really hard to find a job.” Think of some other types of studies you could do to see if pharmacy is saturated. Other variables to look at would be 1. Are salaries increasing? 2. Are there more schools now? Why have they taken away the PCAT in some of these schools? 3. Are more jobs being created? 4. Have companies taken away benefits (sick leave, vaca, changes in 401k, 5. What’s the work environment like?(ie 10 years ago there was one tech per station now you fill those stations) 6. Just talk to people.(If you talk to pharmacists who have been employed for a long time your data will be skewed). 7. Does residency equal more pay? 8. Did pharmacists need a residency to work in a hospital 10 years ago or did the hospitals train them?

Develop a good study to find out what the market is like and make your own conclusions. Waiting for a response to a resume you sent out isn’t that good of a study in determining saturation. It’s a start.

 

[rxkrafted]

It is crazy , if you even put it in your head that most students are leaving with close to 250$ thousand in loans. Your comment is still sarcastic and irrelevant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Stop being so sensitive. If you didn't know any of this information while you are in pharmacy school, you were either in denial or living in your own dream world. I still can't believe there are students who think jobs will be offered on a silver platter after graduation and then get surprised by the job outlook when they do their research at the end of their program.... lol

 

[quickpic007]

I guess it's a good idea I'm willing to be flexible when it comes to getting a CS job post-graduation, because I just got done talking to someone who works for a FAANG company who told me that there's a very high likelihood that I'll be discriminated against by the HR dep'ts. of most of the large you've-heard-of-them tech companies (as well as startups) due to my age being early 30s. He said I should still be able to get a CS/SWE job at a non-tech company or maybe at a smaller one outside of the Bay Area and Silicon Valley, but otherwise it's going to be an uphill battle for me to have a shot with the most desirable companies.

... Oh well, I suppose that's still a better outcome than what I'm looking at getting with pharmacy, right?

if you know it will be bad/tough and still are even contemplating doing CS at this point in your life, then you have learned absolutely nothing from your poor experience in pharmacy. Trying to obtain a much more difficult CS degree to possibly beat a coming saturated/age discriminatory market in CS is a big gamble as was pharmacy in your case.

consider a larger view of the human experience before leaving pharmacy, or jumping to cs

 

[deleted562805]

if you know it will be bad/tough and still are even contemplating doing CS at this point in your life, then you have learned absolutely nothing from your poor experience in pharmacy. Trying to obtain a much more difficult CS degree to possibly beat a coming saturated/age discriminatory market in CS is a big gamble as was pharmacy in your case.

consider a larger view of the human experience before leaving pharmacy, or jumping to cs

Completely disagree. Staying in pharmacy is completely worse than CS. Hours are getting cut left and right in hospital and retail. The one I would advise not to do is jump to PA school since PA is most likely going to get saturated.

There is no evidence that shows CS will become saturated anytime soon,none.

Plus, other health care professions are not easy to get in either. Whether it is nursing, PA or medical school. All three admissions committees might ask for prior work experience in pharmacy. At least CS does not.

 

[Rphonthecome]

Stop being so sensitive. If you didn't know any of this information while you are in pharmacy school, you were either in denial or living in your own dream world. I still can't believe there are students who think jobs will be offered on a silver platter after graduation and then get surprised by the job outlook when they do their research at the end of their program.... lol

Things are changing on a daily basis. I am sensitive about what my future. You probably sitting on a good job at the moment, that’s why it’s funny to you. Keep trolling tho


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hedgehog32]

if you know it will be bad/tough and still are even contemplating doing CS at this point in your life, then you have learned absolutely nothing from your poor experience in pharmacy. Trying to obtain a much more difficult CS degree to possibly beat a coming saturated/age discriminatory market in CS is a big gamble as was pharmacy in your case.

consider a larger view of the human experience before leaving pharmacy, or jumping to cs

Hold on a second -- the SWE I talked to didn't say that it would be impossible for me to find, like how it's impossible for me to get hired for a pharmacist job. He just meant that I'd probably have a harder time getting hired at one of the ultra-desirable FAANG companies as a new grad at my age. He did say that it wouldn't pose much of an issue when it comes to qualifying for jobs at non-FAANG companies as well as at companies that aren't in the Bay Area in general (which I had never planned on moving to in the first place). Also, age discrimination has been an issue in the tech industry for years; it's not like it suddenly just started becoming an issue in recent months.

I can't help but notice that some people seem to be so eager to declare that the CS job market is inevitably going to become just as much of an oversaturated nightmare as pharmacy's. I'm not sure if this is borne of a "misery loves company" mentality, but there is no evidence to base such melodramatic fearmongering on. The most recently-updated BLS stats that were published just a few months ago still project 20%+ job growth in CS fields; additionally, a user here posted a link to the results of some organization's study that was conducted to attempt to identify what are likely to be the 15 most in-demand future professions. Nine of the 15 professions were all specializations within CS.

I'm not saying that CS is the ideal career with absolutely no downsides, but some of you guys are resorting to hysterics in implying that CS is following the exact same doomsday trajectory as pharmacy. Again, there's no data to support such an argument.

For those of us who don't have trust funds to subsist on, we have to pick SOMETHING. And after assessing the profession's pros and cons, CS is simply the safest career to pursue for me at this point because the pros (namely, the one about being able to find a job) outweigh the cons.

BTW, you said "consider a larger view of the human experience before leaving pharmacy, or jumping to cs."

... Ummm, the fallacy of that statement is the phrase "before leaving pharmacy." I didn't match for residency and even if I did want to work retail, there are NO jobs I'd qualify for unless I moved to an extremely rural state where I'd be absolutely miserable (example: North Dakota has been suggested to me as a state I could probably get a CVS/Walgreens job in "if I'm willing to do what it takes to get a pharmacist job"). Otherwise, the DMs for CVS and Walgreens in my area told me they aren't hiring anyone who doesn't have some form of retail experience. I believe @Farmgurl20 was told the same thing by the DMs as well?

So anyways, I'm just trying to make the point that it doesn't really make sense to advise me against leaving pharmacy when I'm not even "in" pharmacy in the first place, if that makes sense. In other words, I'd literally not be leaving anything, because there is nothing for me TO leave in a professional capacity.

@Rx1992 is from the same region as me and can back me up on all this when I say that new grads are applying to literally every job opening in this and neighboring states and receiving zero interview offers. So if faced with the alternatives of working 12-14 hr shifts for CVS in North Dakota or taking one's chances with spending 1.5 yrs pursuing a CS masters degree to start a career in a field that is years away from reaching saturation, would you honestly pick North Dakota CVS?

To summarize the age discrimination issue in CS, it's a matter of having a harder time finding a job vs. having ZERO prospects whatsoever unless I'm willing to move to the nether realm (pharmacy).

 

[quickpic007]

Hold on a second -- the SWE I talked to didn't say that it would be impossible for me to find, like how it's impossible for me to get hired for a pharmacist job. He just meant that I'd probably have a harder time getting hired at one of the ultra-desirable FAANG companies as a new grad at my age. He did say that it wouldn't pose much of an issue when it comes to qualifying for jobs at non-FAANG companies as well as at companies that aren't in the Bay Area in general (which I had never planned on moving to in the first place). Also, age discrimination has been an issue in the tech industry for years; it's not like it suddenly just started becoming an issue in recent months.

I can't help but notice that some people seem to be so eager to declare that the CS job market is inevitably going to become just as much of an oversaturated nightmare as pharmacy's. I'm not sure if this is borne of a "misery loves company" mentality, but there is no evidence to base such melodramatic fearmongering on. The most recently-updated BLS stats that were published just a few months ago still project 20%+ job growth in CS fields; additionally, a user here posted a link to the results of some organization's study that was conducted to attempt to identify what are likely to be the 15 most in-demand future professions. Nine of the 15 professions were all specializations within CS.

I'm not saying that CS is the ideal career with absolutely no downsides, but some of you guys are resorting to hysterics in implying that CS is following the exact same doomsday trajectory as pharmacy. Again, there's no data to support such an argument.

For those of us who don't have trust funds to subsist on, we have to pick SOMETHING. And after assessing the profession's pros and cons, CS is simply the safest career to pursue for me at this point because the pros (namely, the one about being able to find a job) outweigh the cons.

BTW, you said "consider a larger view of the human experience before leaving pharmacy, or jumping to cs."

... Ummm, the fallacy of that statement is the phrase "before leaving pharmacy." I didn't match for residency and even if I did want to work retail, there are NO jobs I'd qualify for unless I moved to an extremely rural state where I'd be absolutely miserable (example: North Dakota has been suggested to me as a state I could probably get a CVS/Walgreens job in "if I'm willing to do what it takes to get a pharmacist job"). Otherwise, the DMs for CVS and Walgreens in my area told me they aren't hiring anyone who doesn't have some form of retail experience. I believe @Farmgurl20 was told the same thing by the DMs as well?

So anyways, I'm just trying to make the point that it doesn't really make sense to advise me against leaving pharmacy when I'm not even "in" pharmacy in the first place, if that makes sense. In other words, I'd literally not be leaving anything, because there is nothing for me TO leave in a professional capacity.

@Rx1992 is from the same region as me and can back me up on all this when I say that new grads are applying to literally every job opening in this and neighboring states and receiving zero interview offers. So if faced with the alternatives of working 12-14 hr shifts for CVS in North Dakota or taking one's chances with spending 1.5 yrs pursuing a CS masters degree to start a career in a field that is years away from reaching saturation, would you honestly pick North Dakota CVS?

To summarize the age discrimination issue in CS, it's a matter of having a harder time finding a job vs. having ZERO prospects whatsoever unless I'm willing to move to the nether realm (pharmacy).

What I am really getting at is why not bum it for a year, get a rph license apply and see what comes? All while doing thorough research on multiple alternatives?

Will you be able to love CS enough to get good enough grades for employers to get excited on your resume? With an online program will you be able to hustle a decent internship?
Are you comfortable that in SWE, like pharmacy, there is ZERO barrier to entry? Anyone can self learn, boot camp, and create a portfolio?

Maybe not North Dakota, but I'd look into California, Alaska, Vermont, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin. Though you are correct, all very rural areas.

 

[deleted562805]

What I am really getting at is why not bum it for a year, get a rph license apply and see what comes? All while doing thorough research on multiple alternatives?

Will you be able to love CS enough to get good enough grades for employers to get excited on your resume? With an online program will you be able to hustle a decent internship?
Are you comfortable that in SWE, like pharmacy, there is ZERO barrier to entry? Anyone can self learn, boot camp, and create a portfolio?

Maybe not North Dakota, but I'd look into California, Alaska, Vermont, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin. Though you are correct, all very rural areas.

Wrong. There is no zero level barrier of entry for a SWE job. I just did a job search for a posting in Bellevue WA for Microsoft. You have to be really good at JavaScript and other programming languages like C++. Not anyone can just create portfolio or code. Maybe not necessarily Python. Most SWE job at the minimum you need to be good at Java Script and C++. And SWE is a full time job and after year or two Hedgehog32 can move something else in CS. CS is needed in every industry unlike pharmacy.

Not anyone can just code efficiently and produce good results. Not every one can create well designed user friendly website. Not everyone can design a portfolio from scratch without template to fallback on. If that was the case, CS would continued to be outsourced to other countries. Well, it backfired on those tech companies because foreign programmers suck. Tech companies want American graduates. CS jobs are going to be in demand for now and in the future ( the following ten years). CS is so applicable to every industry even if FAANG was outsourced. Heck, one could work remotely in the US for outsourced Google in India. CS is the most flexible and the most broad spectrum degree providing many options, which pharmacy does not offer. CS is hand down and 100% better than pharmacy.

Hedgehog32 is wasting his time with pharmacy. He has tried both hospital and retail routes at this point. Hospital is only taking residency or two years of inpatient experience and CVS and Walgreens DM is only taking their interns. The jobs in rural are pretty bleak. I am sure are aware hours are getting cut in rural hospitals and rural hospitals are closing down. I would imagine CVS and Walgreens are closing some rural stores.Riding it out will not change the job market of pharmacy. I think Hedgehog32 has decided to switch to CS. And Good for Hedgehog32!

 

[Hedgehog32]

What I am really getting at is why not bum it for a year, get a rph license apply and see what comes? All while doing thorough research on multiple alternatives?

Will you be able to love CS enough to get good enough grades for employers to get excited on your resume? With an online program will you be able to hustle a decent internship?
Are you comfortable that in SWE, like pharmacy, there is ZERO barrier to entry? Anyone can self learn, boot camp, and create a portfolio?

Maybe not North Dakota, but I'd look into California, Alaska, Vermont, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin. Though you are correct, all very rural areas.

The main issues with trying to bum it for a year are related to the fact that I'm an older graduate (30+) and that, unlike many of my co-graduates, I'm not in a situation where I can have my expenses paid for by my parents (retired) for a year while I try to get something else going. It's just not feasible for me at this point, so I really don't have any time I can waste.

Re: concerns of CS not having barriers to entry - this is where having a formal MS will hopefully be valuable when/if the field gets saturated in the future. Right now, there are so many jobs out there that someone can teach themselves programming, build up a decent portfolio, and get an entry-level web developer job somewhere, although as Rx1992 pointed out in his post, the big tech companies are going to prefer to hire someone with a formal degree. If the job market gets really competitive at some point, then having an MS will help me stand out against applicants who only have bootcamp or self-learning experience (according to the FAANG software developer I've been talking to).

Re: applying to pharmacist jobs in the rural states that you mentioned - I would be more amenable to doing what you suggested, except I would still be applying for chain retail positions which I just can't see myself working in. I would honestly rather take on all the risks inherent in going back to school to pursue a totally different career path if I can't find a hospital inpatient/LTC job and would have to do retail.

So obviously, as a new grad who didn't complete a residency and who has no work experience (aside from paid intern experience during pharm school), that leaves rural chain retail as my only realistic option for starting a pharmacy career. And if I'm not willing to do that, then the only remaining option is to pursue another career entirely. I would consider rural hospital positions (especially 7 on/7 off nightshift), but my understanding is that even those positions are now largely exclusive to residency-trained pharmacists.

 

[samven582]

What happens if a hospital has no money left and has to shut down? Where will the money come from?

Don't worry uncle sam will bailout them.

 

[samven582]

The main issues with trying to bum it for a year are related to the fact that I'm an older graduate (30+) and that, unlike many of my co-graduates, I'm not in a situation where I can have my expenses paid for by my parents (retired) for a year while I try to get something else going. It's just not feasible for me at this point, so I really don't have any time I can waste.

Re: concerns of CS not having barriers to entry - this is where having a formal MS will hopefully be valuable when/if the field gets saturated in the future. Right now, there are so many jobs out there that someone can teach themselves programming, build up a decent portfolio, and get an entry-level web developer job somewhere, although as Rx1992 pointed out in his post, the big tech companies are going to prefer to hire someone with a formal degree. If the job market gets really competitive at some point, then having an MS will help me stand out against applicants who only have bootcamp or self-learning experience (according to the FAANG software developer I've been talking to).

Re: applying to pharmacist jobs in the rural states that you mentioned - I would be more amenable to doing what you suggested, except I would still be applying for chain retail positions which I just can't see myself working in. I would honestly rather take on all the risks inherent in going back to school to pursue a totally different career path if I can't find a hospital inpatient/LTC job and would have to do retail.

So obviously, as a new grad who didn't complete a residency and who has no work experience (aside from paid intern experience during pharm school), that leaves rural chain retail as my only realistic option for starting a pharmacy career. And if I'm not willing to do that, then the only remaining option is to pursue another career entirely. I would consider rural hospital positions (especially 7 on/7 off nightshift), but my understanding is that even those positions are now largely exclusive to residency-trained pharmacists.

Where do you get this idea that you need residency just to staff?

 

[mentos]

Where do you get this idea that you need residency just to staff?

It's very rare these days for a new grad to land a full time hospital staff position.

 

[mentos]

Don't worry uncle sam will bailout them.

They won't bail out a for-profit hospital. Many of them have already closed in the past few years.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Where do you get this idea that you need residency just to staff?

It's very rare these days for a new grad to land a full time hospital staff position.

Mentos basically summarized it in his post I quoted above. As the DOP (who, ironically, did not do a residency) at the hospital I used to work as an intern at explained, the job market is so competitive now that they can insist on hiring only residency-trained pharmacists for staffing positions, even those that are PRN and part-time. It actually has nothing to do with whether or not residency training is needed to competently perform staffing duties; it's simply a case of job market dynamics enabling hospitals to be as picky in terms of training/credentials as they want.

 

[Argentium]

SDN Recipe for Success:

It's OK, people won't learn - burn 4 years and 6 figures on a pharmacy degree and then give up on it after a few months of retail/hospital job hunting without even managing to get your license yet. Also don't even consider looking at other adjacent healthcare industries (which BTW is 20% of the economy) that would at least somewhat leverage the PharmD

Instead look at more schooling, more debt, and more time with the assumption that you'll be a top 5% of CS grad with a sexy FAANG offer when you were the bottom 20% of pharmacy that couldn't get a job.

 

[Rphonthecome]

It's OK, people won't learn - burn 4 years and 6 figures on a pharmacy degree and then give up on it after a few months of retail/hospital job hunting without a license. Don't even consider looking at other adjacent industries that would atleast somewhat leverage the PharmD and healthcare background

Instead look at more schooling and more debt with the assumption that you'll be a top 5% of CS grad with a sexy FAANG offer when you were the bottom 20% of pharmacy that couldn't get a job.

wow !!!!!! that might have some fact to it!

 

[mentos]

SDN Recipe for Success:

It's OK, people won't learn - burn 4 years and 6 figures on a pharmacy degree and then give up on it after a few months of retail/hospital job hunting without even managing to get your license yet. Also don't even consider looking at other adjacent healthcare industries (which BTW is 20% of the economy) that would at least somewhat leverage the PharmD

Instead look at more schooling, more debt, and more time with the assumption that you'll be a top 5% of CS grad with a sexy FAANG offer when you were the bottom 20% of pharmacy that couldn't get a job.

Very true but how can you leverage a PharmD? It's highly specific to pharmacy, not very versatile. I imagine the percentage that couldn't get a pharmacy job is much higher. There's just too many pharmDs now.

 

[Hedgehog32]

SDN Recipe for Success:

It's OK, people won't learn - burn 4 years and 6 figures on a pharmacy degree and then give up on it after a few months of retail/hospital job hunting without even managing to get your license yet. Also don't even consider looking at other adjacent healthcare industries (which BTW is 20% of the economy) that would at least somewhat leverage the PharmD

Instead look at more schooling, more debt, and more time with the assumption that you'll be a top 5% of CS grad with a sexy FAANG offer when you were the bottom 20% of pharmacy that couldn't get a job.

Why don't you visit LinkedIn.com and do a search for jobs in these so-called "adjacent healthcare industries" so that you can see that practically every one of them receives anywhere from 100-300+ applications per post?

Second of all, if graduating from a well-reputed (not established within the past 20 yrs) pharmacy school with a 3.8+ GPA, leadership experience, and paid intern work experience makes me representative of the bottom 20th percentile of pharmacy graduates, then what does the typical profile of one of the other 80% of graduates look like?

Lastly, if you'd actually read over any of my posts discussing my plans and expectations associated with pursuing CS, you would've recalled that I specifically said I was NOT counting on getting anything close to a FAANG job at any point in my career and that a decent-paying software developer job in a medium-sized city is an outcome I'd be happy with. (After all, it's not like new grads can realistically expect anything close to the equivalent outcome as a new pharmacist, so a run of the mill software dev job in non-BFE is an opportunity I'd feel fortunate to have).

 

[Hedgehog32]

Very true but how can you leverage a PharmD? It's highly specific to pharmacy, not very versatile. I imagine the percentage that couldn't get a pharmacy job is much higher. There's just too many pharmDs now.

Like I said in my post above, visit LinkedIn.com and do a quick job search for medical writing/medical affairs and similar jobs. You'll see that the majority of postings are receiving well over 100 applicants per position, regardless of whether they state an experience requirement or not.

 

[deleted562805]

SDN Recipe for Success:

It's OK, people won't learn - burn 4 years and 6 figures on a pharmacy degree and then give up on it after a few months of retail/hospital job hunting without even managing to get your license yet. Also don't even consider looking at other adjacent healthcare industries (which BTW is 20% of the economy) that would at least somewhat leverage the PharmD

Instead look at more schooling, more debt, and more time with the assumption that you'll be a top 5% of CS grad with a sexy FAANG offer when you were the bottom 20% of pharmacy that couldn't get a job.

Just because one was terrible in pharmacy does not foreshadow that one will be terrible in CS. Two completely unrelated fields

 

[Argentium]

Soft skills such as interviewing well and succeeding in a corporate environment are skills that transcend major/field/industry.

If your stats are fantastic and you are not getting any job interviews or offers, and thousands of people have matched for a residency/fellowship or have gotten a job in this last few months post-grad .. you can continue to blame external factors (e.g. luck, COVID, the saturation,, etc.), which are outside of your control, or you can ask yourself "what am I doing wrong?"

Things to think about:

1. Have you gone to career services to have your CV reviewed? Have you asked industry professionals to review?
2. Have you been networking with hiring managers, recruiters, and former alum at your school?
3. Have you done mock interview practice with former alum, career services, etc.?
4. Have you been casting the net wide in regards to type of job, geographic location, etc?
5. Of the interviews you have been on, have you asked for candid feedback in terms of why you didn't get the position?
6. Have you been patient in the hiring process? The fastest I've ever hired anyone from beginning to end is ~2 months; we are in the middle of a global pandemic now.
7. .... many more

If you are not getting any interviews at all: you need to fix your CV, cast a wider net, and continue applying (be patient)
If you are getting interviews but not getting offers: you need to work on your interview skills, cast a wide net, and continue applying

Another poster mentioned that 100 applicants apply to medical writing position, how many of those people do you think are actually qualified? I just went through the recruiting process for an entry-level associate and we got 30+ candidates but only 2-3 of them were actually good enough to even consider for hiring (regardless of how their competition performed)

# of applicants doesn't mean a lot IMO -- consider that per 2020 ASHP statistics, 65% of residency applicants match meaning that there are 1.5 applicants for every 1 spot -- your odds do not get better than that -- but by all accounts the residency match process is pretty competitive given it self selects.

 

[deleted562805]

Soft skills such as interviewing well and succeeding in a corporate environment are skills that transcend major/field/industry.

If your stats are fantastic and you are not getting any job interviews or offers, and thousands of people have matched for a residency/fellowship or have gotten a job in this last few months post-grad .. you can continue to blame external factors (e.g. luck, COVID, the saturation,, etc.), which are outside of your control, or you can ask yourself "what am I doing wrong?"

Things to think about:

1. Have you gone to career services to have your CV reviewed? Have you asked industry professionals to review?
2. Have you been networking with hiring managers, recruiters, and former alum at your school?
3. Have you done mock interview practice with former alum, career services, etc.?
4. Have you been casting the net wide in regards to type of job, geographic location, etc?
5. Of the interviews you have been on, have you asked for candid feedback in terms of why you didn't get the position?
6. Have you been patient in the hiring process? The fastest I've ever hired anyone from beginning to end is ~2 months; we are in the middle of a global pandemic now.
7. .... many more

If you are not getting any interviews at all: you need to fix your CV, cast a wider net, and continue applying (be patient)
If you are getting interviews but not getting offers: you need to work on your interview skills, cast a wide net, and continue applying

Another poster mentioned that 100 applicants apply to medical writing position, how many of those people do you think are actually qualified? I just went through the recruiting process for an entry-level associate and we got 30+ candidates but only 2-3 of them were actually good enough to even consider for hiring (regardless of how their competition performed)

# of applicants doesn't mean a lot IMO -- consider that per 2020 ASHP statistics, 65% of residency applicants match meaning that there are 1.5 applicants for every 1 spot -- your odds do not get better than that -- but by all accounts the residency match process is pretty competitive given it self selects.

Yes, you can do all those things. You can interview well etc. but if you don’t have the credentials or experience prior to applying then it is tough to get a pharmacy job. Which includes retail and hospital. Want a remote pharmacy job, needs experience. CS is by no means not competitive, but jobs are increasing for CS graduates and you can apply CS to any field. Tech companies measure a candidates ability in programming instead of just subjective interviews. CS is merit based because they want people who have good to perfect programming skills and you don’t have to be extremely good at soft skills for CS.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Soft skills such as interviewing well and succeeding in a corporate environment are skills that transcend major/field/industry.

If your stats are fantastic and you are not getting any job interviews or offers, and thousands of people have matched for a residency/fellowship or have gotten a job in this last few months post-grad .. you can continue to blame external factors (e.g. luck, COVID, the saturation,, etc.), which are outside of your control, or you can ask yourself "what am I doing wrong?"

Things to think about:

1. Have you gone to career services to have your CV reviewed? Have you asked industry professionals to review?
2. Have you been networking with hiring managers, recruiters, and former alum at your school?
3. Have you done mock interview practice with former alum, career services, etc.?
4. Have you been casting the net wide in regards to type of job, geographic location, etc?
5. Of the interviews you have been on, have you asked for candid feedback in terms of why you didn't get the position?
6. Have you been patient in the hiring process? The fastest I've ever hired anyone from beginning to end is ~2 months; we are in the middle of a global pandemic now.
7. .... many more

If you are not getting any interviews at all: you need to fix your CV, cast a wider net, and continue applying (be patient)
If you are getting interviews but not getting offers: you need to work on your interview skills, cast a wide net, and continue applying

Another poster mentioned that 100 applicants apply to medical writing position, how many of those people do you think are actually qualified? I just went through the recruiting process for an entry-level associate and we got 30+ candidates but only 2-3 of them were actually good enough to even consider for hiring (regardless of how their competition performed)

# of applicants doesn't mean a lot IMO -- consider that per 2020 ASHP statistics, 65% of residency applicants match meaning that there are 1.5 applicants for every 1 spot -- your odds do not get better than that -- but by all accounts the residency match process is pretty competitive given it self selects.

To respond to the first part of your post (specifically, the comment stating how "thousands of other new grads have received interviews and job offers over the last few months") - this is definitely NOT the case, at least not for the co-graduates in my class or those in any other c/o 2020 graduating class that I've heard of. The only people in my graduating class that have received job offers so far have been those who interned at retail chains, independent pharmacies, and at extremely rural hospitals. Otherwise, everyone else ~80% of my class) is still jobless.

The issue with getting a job was really accurately summarized by @Rx1992 above. The vast majority of pharmacist employers (both retail and hospital, but especially hospital) have instituted minimum requirements within the past 1-2 yrs that make it very difficult or impossible to get a job, simply because the vast majority of new graduates don't mean the minimum requirements to apply.

To be more specific, most hospital staffing positions now mandate that applicants have either pharmacist-level work experience or have completed a residency. Many academic medical centers are now only hiring residency-trained pharmacists even for staffing positions and will not consider applications from pharmacists who have inpatient hospital work experience but did not complete a residency (one of my former preceptors is considering leaving her job and applying to residencies for this reason).

Retail chains have also gotten picky with minimum requirements for pharmacist positions. For example, the district managers for both Walgreens and CVS in my region require applicants to have at least one year of work experience either as a pharmacist or intern in chain retail. I know this for a fact because I was actually offered an intern position by the DMs with both companies a few weeks prior to the start of my senior year. They were very upfront in letting me know that I wouldn't be eligible for any pharmacist positions with their companies upon graduation if I didn't accept their offer and get intern work experience with their companies. I turned it down because I had (and still have) zero interest in working as a chain retail pharmacist and also because I still had my hospital intern job at the time.

So anyways, to make a long story short, the issue is that very few new grads meet the minimum requirements to simply be eligible for consideration for most pharmacist positions (unless they've completed a residency or have retail work experience). I've been told that my only realistic option for getting hired into a pharmacist position at this point is with chain retail pharmacies in very rural locations where they can't (yet) mandate an experience requirement.

BTW, I've had my CV reviewed by my preceptors as well as a recruiter from CompHealth and the president of a well-known independent recruiting company. They helped me revise it to the point where it's basically as "good" as it can be at this point in light of content, writing style, etc. They basically said that what's going to make it difficult for me to be considered for most jobs aside from rural chain retail is that there simply isn't enough on the CV to distinguish me apart from most other new grads. Obviously it's my fault for not doing enough as a student (or matching for residency) to prevent that from being the case, but those are the circumstances I'm presented with at this point.

 

[Argentium]

To respond to the first part of your post (specifically, the comment stating how "thousands of other new grads have received interviews and job offers over the last few months") - this is definitely NOT the case, at least not for the co-graduates in my class or those in any other c/o 2020 graduating class that I've heard of. The only people in my graduating class that have received job offers so far have been those who interned at retail chains, independent pharmacies, and at extremely rural hospitals. Otherwise, everyone else ~80% of my class) is still jobless.

The issue with getting a job was really accurately summarized by @Rx1992 above. The vast majority of pharmacist employers (both retail and hospital, but especially hospital) have instituted minimum requirements within the past 1-2 yrs that make it very difficult or impossible to get a job, simply because the vast majority of new graduates don't mean the minimum requirements to apply.

To be more specific, most hospital staffing positions now mandate that applicants have either pharmacist-level work experience or have completed a residency. Many academic medical centers are now only hiring residency-trained pharmacists even for staffing positions and will not consider applications from pharmacists who have inpatient hospital work experience but did not complete a residency (one of my former preceptors is considering leaving her job and applying to residencies for this reason).

Retail chains have also gotten picky with minimum requirements for pharmacist positions. For example, the district managers for both Walgreens and CVS in my region require applicants to have at least one year of work experience either as a pharmacist or intern in chain retail. I know this for a fact because I was actually offered an intern position by the DMs with both companies a few weeks prior to the start of my senior year. They were very upfront in letting me know that I wouldn't be eligible for any pharmacist positions with their companies upon graduation if I didn't accept their offer and get intern work experience with their companies. I turned it down because I had (and still have) zero interest in working as a chain retail pharmacist and also because I still had my hospital intern job at the time.

So anyways, to make a long story short, the issue is that very few new grads meet the minimum requirements to simply be eligible for consideration for most pharmacist positions (unless they've completed a residency or have retail work experience). I've been told that my only realistic option for getting hired into a pharmacist position at this point is with chain retail pharmacies in very rural locations where they can't (yet) mandate an experience requirement.

BTW, I've had my CV reviewed by my preceptors as well as a recruiter from CompHealth and the president of a well-known independent recruiting company. They helped me revise it to the point where it's basically as "good" as it can be at this point in light of content, writing style, etc. They basically said that what's going to make it difficult for me to be considered for most jobs aside from rural chain retail is that there simply isn't enough on the CV to distinguish me apart from most other new grads. Obviously it's my fault for not doing enough as a student (or matching for residency) to prevent that from being the case, but those are the circumstances I'm presented with at this point.

I’ll ignore the top part and focus on the bottom - fair enough and best of luck in the process, as it is certainly tough out there, particularly now. The first job is oftentimes the hardest one, which was my experience in school as well - I applied to hundreds of internships before one finally worked out.

Hope you take your last point to heart and apply this learning in whichever next career you decide to pursue

 

[Hedgehog32]

I’ll ignore the top part and focus on the bottom - fair enough and best of luck in the process, as it is certainly tough out there, particularly now. The first job is oftentimes the hardest one, which was my experience in school as well - I applied to hundreds of internships before one finally worked out.

Hope you take your last point to heart and apply this learning in whichever next career you decide to pursue

Thanks and I agree with you, but just out of curiosity, do you mind if I ask why you ignored the top part? Is the actual information I spouted inaccurate in your opinion? Just wondering.

 

[Argentium]

Thanks and I agree with you, but just out of curiosity, do you mind if I ask why you ignored the top part? Is the actual information I spouted inaccurate in your opinion? Just wondering.

More around - you're right about all the top stuff: essentially you need to hit the ground ready and be prepared for a competitive market and have work experience, be involved in the right extracurriculars, and do a little extra. Pharmacy just had it easy for so long (you just needed a pulse to get a job in retail and make six figures during the expansion years), but doing the above to be competitive for a decent job our of school is the norm for a lot of careers.

You have the really competitive business school kids getting involved in internships as early as freshman summer in order to have a shot at consulting, banking, HF/VC/PE, etc. You have the engineers, scientists, etc. all doing some work on the side to be competitive for FT jobs once they graduate - my CS friends, who were middle of the pack, all had done internships by the time senior year rolled around.

This isn't about you since its a moot point and you're already graduated/close, but the pharmacy saturation has been a topic for ten years now, so there's very little excuse to not know what you are walking into once you get that diploma.

 

[Hedgehog32]

More around - you're right about all the top stuff: essentially you need to hit the ground ready and be prepared for a competitive market and have work experience, be involved in the right extracurriculars, and do a little extra. Pharmacy just had it easy for so long (you just needed a pulse to get a job in retail and make six figures during the expansion years), but doing the above to be competitive for a decent job our of school is the norm for a lot of careers.

You have the really competitive business school kids getting involved in internships as early as freshman summer in order to have a shot at consulting, banking, HF/VC/PE, etc. You have the engineers, scientists, etc. all doing some work on the side to be competitive for FT jobs once they graduate - my CS friends, who were middle of the pack, all had done internships by the time senior year rolled around.

This isn't about you since its a moot point and you're already graduated/close, but the pharmacy saturation has been a topic for ten years now, so there's very little excuse to not know what you are walking into once you get that diploma.

I agree with you in general, but I think part of what led to my predicament is that I underestimated how much someone objectively has to do as a pharmacy student to stand out and make themselves competitive for getting a job upon graduating. For example, in my case, I worked as a hospital pharmacy intern (with occasional outpatient shifts as well) and held a leadership position at the "president" level when I was in school.

While I didn't have any illusions that having those bulletpoints on my resume would make me a hyper-competitive pharmacy graduate, I still figured they'd be "enough" with respect of my goal, which was to simply get an inpatient hospital staffing position somewhere (I.e., not a clinical or amb care or similarly highly desirable position).

However, not only did I not do enough to make myself competitive for a hospital staffing position (since there are now even so many more residency grads than there are clinical pharmacy positions that even rural hospitals can insist on hiring only residency-trained pharmacists for staffing positions), but I also didn't even do enough to make myself competitive for retail positions at chains like CVS and Walgreens. The one and only possible exception is retail positions in extremely rural areas.

So even though you say it's necessary to do "a little extra" in order to get a job out of pharmacy school, how much extra work/effort/involvement actually comprises "a little?"

Again, no offense, but I think you've been out of school for long enough that you're not quite grasping just how bad the job market is these days, with recruiters saying they're now receiving so many applications from experienced, highly-qualified applicants that choosing which candidates to interview and hire has literally become "a crap shoot" (their exact words).

Also, even though I don't doubt that students pursuing careers in other fields also have to do things to set themselves apart and make themselves competitive, their situations can't be as dire as what as pharmacy students are facing. Are you honestly implying that finance and CS students are having to be exceptionally competitive as students if they want a shot at getting any other job than whatever those professions' least desirable positions happen to be (I.e., the finance and CS equivalents of chain pharmacy) in extremely rural, undesirable areas? (Which is the case with pharmacy right now)

 

[deleted562805]

Soft skills such as interviewing well and succeeding in a corporate environment are skills that transcend major/field/industry.

If your stats are fantastic and you are not getting any job interviews or offers, and thousands of people have matched for a residency/fellowship or have gotten a job in this last few months post-grad .. you can continue to blame external factors (e.g. luck, COVID, the saturation,, etc.), which are outside of your control, or you can ask yourself "what am I doing wrong?"

Things to think about:

1. Have you gone to career services to have your CV reviewed? Have you asked industry professionals to review?
2. Have you been networking with hiring managers, recruiters, and former alum at your school?
3. Have you done mock interview practice with former alum, career services, etc.?
4. Have you been casting the net wide in regards to type of job, geographic location, etc?
5. Of the interviews you have been on, have you asked for candid feedback in terms of why you didn't get the position?
6. Have you been patient in the hiring process? The fastest I've ever hired anyone from beginning to end is ~2 months; we are in the middle of a global pandemic now.
7. .... many more

If you are not getting any interviews at all: you need to fix your CV, cast a wider net, and continue applying (be patient)
If you are getting interviews but not getting offers: you need to work on your interview skills, cast a wide net, and continue applying

Another poster mentioned that 100 applicants apply to medical writing position, how many of those people do you think are actually qualified? I just went through the recruiting process for an entry-level associate and we got 30+ candidates but only 2-3 of them were actually good enough to even consider for hiring (regardless of how their competition performed)

# of applicants doesn't mean a lot IMO -- consider that per 2020 ASHP statistics, 65% of residency applicants match meaning that there are 1.5 applicants for every 1 spot -- your odds do not get better than that -- but by all accounts the residency match process is pretty competitive given it self selects.

Your point about soft skills is also moot. Hypothetically, if I was Family medicine doctor in this current job market, I would still get a full time job in the BFE even if my interview skills are not perfect. Why because rural areas are hurting for PCPs. Where as there is no demand for pharmacists. More than likely a hospital will take someone with credentials with middle of the pack soft skills over a new grad with no residency with stellar soft skills. Soft skills are added bonus only if you have the credentials first.

 

[deleted562805]

I agree with you in general, but I think part of what led to my predicament is that I underestimated how much someone objectively has to do as a pharmacy student to stand out and make themselves competitive for getting a job upon graduating. For example, in my case, I worked as a hospital pharmacy intern (with occasional outpatient shifts as well) and held a leadership position at the "president" level when I was in school.

While I didn't have any illusions that having those bullet points on my resume would make me an hyper-competitive pharmacy graduate, I still figured they'd be "enough" in light of my goal, which was to simply get an inpatient hospital staffing position somewhere (I.e., not a clinical or amb care or similarly highly desirable position).

However, not only did I not do enough to make myself competitive for a hospital staffing position (since there are now even so many more residency grads than there are clinical pharmacy positions that even rural hospitals can insist on hiring only residency-trained pharmacists for staffing positions), but I also didn't even do enough to make myself competitive for retail positions at chains like CVS and Walgreens. The one and only possible exception is retail positions in extremely rural areas.

So even though you say it's necessary to do "a little extra" in order to get a job out of pharmacy school, how much extra work/effort/involvement actually comprises "a little?"

Again, no offense, but I think you've been out of school for long enough that you're not quite grasping just how bad the job market is these days, with recruiters saying they're now receiving so many applications from experienced, highly-qualified applicants that choosing which candidates to interview and hire has literally become "a crap shoot" (their exact words).

Also, even though I don't doubt that students pursuing careers in other fields also have to do things to set themselves apart and make themselves competitive, their situations can't be as dire as what as pharmacy students are facing. Are you honestly implying that finance and CS students are having to be exceptionally competitive as students if they want a shot at getting any other job than whatever those professions' least desirable positions happen to be (I.e., the finance and CS equivalents of chain pharmacy) in extremely rural, undesirable areas? (Which is the case with pharmacy right now)

I think posters on this forum are trying to discourage you from going to CS, which is in demand right now. It’s the misery loves company mentality. The truth I learned is many people especially extended family or even family do not want one to succeed in life. Ignore the haters and control your life on your own terms.

 

[Argentium]

I agree with you in general, but I think part of what led to my predicament is that I underestimated how much someone objectively has to do as a pharmacy student to stand out and make themselves competitive for getting a job upon graduating. For example, in my case, I worked as a hospital pharmacy intern (with occasional outpatient shifts as well) and held a leadership position at the "president" level when I was in school.

While I didn't have any illusions that having those bulletpoints on my resume would make me a hyper-competitive pharmacy graduate, I still figured they'd be "enough" with respect of my goal, which was to simply get an inpatient hospital staffing position somewhere (I.e., not a clinical or amb care or similarly highly desirable position).

However, not only did I not do enough to make myself competitive for a hospital staffing position (since there are now even so many more residency grads than there are clinical pharmacy positions that even rural hospitals can insist on hiring only residency-trained pharmacists for staffing positions), but I also didn't even do enough to make myself competitive for retail positions at chains like CVS and Walgreens. The one and only possible exception is retail positions in extremely rural areas.

So even though you say it's necessary to do "a little extra" in order to get a job out of pharmacy school, how much extra work/effort/involvement actually comprises "a little?"

Again, no offense, but I think you've been out of school for long enough that you're not quite grasping just how bad the job market is these days, with recruiters saying they're now receiving so many applications from experienced, highly-qualified applicants that choosing which candidates to interview and hire has literally become "a crap shoot" (their exact words).

Also, even though I don't doubt that students pursuing careers in other fields also have to do things to set themselves apart and make themselves competitive, their situations can't be as dire as what as pharmacy students are facing. Are you honestly implying that finance and CS students are having to be exceptionally competitive as students if they want a shot at getting any other job than whatever those professions' least desirable positions happen to be (I.e., the finance and CS equivalents of chain pharmacy) in extremely rural, undesirable areas? (Which is the case with pharmacy right now)

Sorry that happened to you despite working hard in school - out of curiosity, did you apply to residency as well? If you did and didn't match, what would be your self-diagnosis of what went wrong? Also what state are you in?

Regarding desirable jobs, retail is 70% of pharmacy and hospital/other is the rest (30%). I am definitely saying that finance and CS students need to be just as competitive to get the best jobs coming out of school - I know a bit more about the business side of things, but having hundreds of applicants to a job is very much a normal thing at some of the top consulting firms and banks, having gone through the recruiting process myself.

Coming out of my decent state school in the NY metro area - when I graduated (~5 years ago), you could probably count on two hands (<10) the number of people accepted into a front office position at a top bank/consulting firm even though there are hundreds of business graduates every year -- these are the "top jobs" (e.g. FAANGs of business majors)

SDN is a bit insular and extremely negative on the future prospects on pharmacy (maybe a little too much IMO, but debatable -- accept your point that times have changed since I graduated) and definitely a bit too much "grass is greener" mentality as it relates to other fields. Trying to bring some balance in that whatever you decide to pursue after leaving pharmacy, you really need to go the extra mile since nothing is a slam dunk these days.

Also this conversation would be much different if you were deciding whether or not to start in pharmacy, but you have 4 years sunk cost already

@Rx1992 - out of curiosity, what do you do?

 

[Mambo#5]

Sorry that happened to you despite working hard in school - out of curiosity, did you apply to residency as well? If you did and didn't match, what would be your self-diagnosis of what went wrong? Also what state are you in?

Regarding desirable jobs, retail is 70% of pharmacy and hospital/other is the rest (30%). I am definitely saying that finance and CS students need to be just as competitive to get the best jobs coming out of school - I know a bit more about the business side of things, but having hundreds of applicants to a job is very much a normal thing at some of the top consulting firms and banks, having gone through the recruiting process myself.

Coming out of my decent state school in the NY metro area - when I graduated (~5 years ago), you could probably count on two hands (<10) the number of people accepted into a front office position at a top bank/consulting firm even though there are hundreds of business graduates every year -- these are the "top jobs" (e.g. FAANGs of business majors)

SDN is a bit insular and extremely negative on the future prospects on pharmacy (maybe a little too much IMO, but debatable -- accept your point that times have changed since I graduated) and definitely a bit too much "grass is greener" mentality as it relates to other fields. Trying to bring some balance in that whatever you decide to pursue after leaving pharmacy, you really need to go the extra mile since nothing is a slam dunk these days.

Also this conversation would be much different if you were deciding whether or not to start in pharmacy, but you have 4 years sunk cost already

@Rx1992 - out of curiosity, what do you do?

Yeah but even though it’s a sunk cost, don’t keep throwing good money and time after bad (a poor investment) just because you already wasted so much (sunk cost fallacy). Cut your losses. Invest elsewhere.