D.O. in a ACGME-accredited residency

[Stversko]

Im sure this question has been repeated many times but i just couldnt find the exact answer i am looking for.

If an Osteopathic student passes both the COMPLEX and USMLE Step 1 exams and then begins a ACGME-accredited residency (M.D.) upon completion and certification of the residency program what type of degree would the physician have? is there such a thing as a MD/ DO Degree ?

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[Lamborghini1315]

Im sure this question has been repeated many times but i just couldnt find the exact answer i am looking for.

If an Osteopathic student passes both the COMPLEX and USMLE Step 1 exams and then begins a ACGME-accredited residency (M.D.) upon completion and certification of the residency program what type of degree would the physician have? is there such a thing as a MD/ DO Degree ?

It's comlex not complex, your degree is provided by the institution you graduate from so yea there's no dual degree such as MD/DO since that would be redundant. If you finish an allopathic residency you will be board certified by the ACGME while an osteopathic resident will be certified by AOA.

 

[NPEMTIV]

If you finish an allopathic residency you will be board certified by the ACGME while an osteopathic resident will be certified by AOA.

You're actually just board eligible until you pass the board exam , but yeah basically Lamborghini was absolutely correct. Your degree is from the school, not residency.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Im sure this question has been repeated many times but i just couldnt find the exact answer i am looking for.

If an Osteopathic student passes both the COMPLEX and USMLE Step 1 exams and then begins a ACGME-accredited residency (M.D.) upon completion and certification of the residency program what type of degree would the physician have? is there such a thing as a MD/ DO Degree ?

Once a DO, always a DO ... that is unless you do one of those absurd DOtoMD.com programs, or repeat med school at an allopathic institution, or transfer I guess. It doesn't matter though ... once you're board certified in that ACGME field, you're the same as anyone else.

 

[group_theory]

Im sure this question has been repeated many times but i just couldnt find the exact answer i am looking for.

If an Osteopathic student passes both the COMPLEX and USMLE Step 1 exams and then begins a ACGME-accredited residency (M.D.) upon completion and certification of the residency program what type of degree would the physician have? is there such a thing as a MD/ DO Degree ?

I'm a DO. I graduated from a DO school. I took COMLEX and USMLE 1. I'm in an ACGME residency (university program). Once I'm done with residency, I'm still a DO.

Do not trust sites that offer the MD for money. It is worth as much as me printing you a piece of paper saying you're an MD. If you really want an MD for international practice, would a piece of useless paper granting you an MD (from a shady source/individual) really guarantee you practice rights in that country? Besides, do a search for DO International Practice Rights and i'm sure you will be surprised at the results.

 

[Old_Mil]

Im sure this question has been repeated many times but i just couldnt find the exact answer i am looking for.

If an Osteopathic student passes both the COMPLEX and USMLE Step 1 exams and then begins a ACGME-accredited residency (M.D.) upon completion and certification of the residency program what type of degree would the physician have? is there such a thing as a MD/ DO Degree ?

Although you will still have a DO degree upon completion of your residency, there are many advantages to doing what you suggest. By avoiding OGME, you will make yourself more marketable within the United States. Additionally, you will gain practice rights in the countries that do not recognize OGME as valid postgraduate medical training, but will license US DOs who have completed an ACGME residency.

Finally, don't just take Step 1 of the USMLE. Take all the steps 1, 2cs, 2ck, and 3...which will enable you to obtain state licensure on the strength of your USMLE exams and free yourself from the osteopathic power structure upon graduation.

There's nothing quite as sad as seeing a 10 year surgery attending coming back to your school desperately trying to memorize tenderpoints and OMM massage techniques so that he/she can pass boards again.

 

[EyEnStein 07]

Im not sure about your first question, but the last one, about if there is such a thing as MD/DO, i think it exists.

At NYU medical center (while i was volunteering), i always use to pass by a room where outside was written ______,MD and then underneath it was
_____, DO, MD

so i would assume, its not a false but i just always wondered how that was possible.

 

[group_theory]

Although you will still have a DO degree upon completion of your residency, there are many advantages to doing what you suggest. By avoiding OGME, you will make yourself more marketable within the United States. Additionally, you will gain practice rights in the countries that do not recognize OGME as valid postgraduate medical training, but will license US DOs who have completed an ACGME residency.

Finally, don't just take Step 1 of the USMLE. Take all the steps 1, 2cs, 2ck, and 3...which will enable you to obtain state licensure on the strength of your USMLE exams and free yourself from the osteopathic power structure upon graduation.

There's nothing quite as sad as seeing a 10 year surgery attending coming back to your school desperately trying to memorize tenderpoints and OMM massage techniques so that he/she can pass boards again.

Then that is exactly what will happen if someone were to follow your advice. We have had this discussion multiple times - while most states will recognize the USMLE, as a DO, there are some states that insist on COMLEX (California, Florida, Pennsylvania, etc)

I took USMLE Step 1. I finished the COMLEX series. I got my Resolution 42 approved. I'm eligible for licensure in all 50 states. I'm not beholden to the AOA or any osteopathic group anymore. When I am done, I will take the ABMS Boards. There is nothing to gain by finishing the USMLE series (which in my case would require me to take 2CS and 2CK and Step 3). That's 4 days (Step 3 is a 2 day exam) and thousands of dollars in expenses. I'm not going to use my USMLE scores to sell myself to employers/partners or fellowship programs. I'll use my inservice training exams, and letters of recommendations from various attendings to do that. Once you pass Step 3 (whether it is COMLEX or USMLE), no one cares about it anymore. Ever since passing COMLEX 3, I have not touched any of my osteopathic books (nor do I expect to).

If someone were to follow your advice (and not finish the COMLEX series but finish the USMLE series) - then YES, a few years down the line and this person wants a job in California, or another states that requires COMLEX - then you will have to re-study the osteopathic component and retake the test (COMVEX) - or as you stated "There's nothing quite as sad as seeing a 10 year surgery attending coming back to your school desperately trying to memorize tenderpoints and OMM massage techniques so that he/she can pass boards again".


While you certainly have a right to your opinion and options, to repeatedly post on various forums your distrust and hatred of the AOA and COMLEX (which are valid concerns) but then to suggest that not completing the COMLEX but finish the USMLE is a viable alternative (without mentioning any of the downside) is disingenuous. You may not want to practice in California, or Florida, or the few other states that requires COMLEX, but some of the readers might.

 

[group_theory]

Im not sure about your first question, but the last one, about if there is such a thing as MD/DO, i think it exists.

At NYU medical center (while i was volunteering), i always use to pass by a room where outside was written ______,MD and then underneath it was
_____, DO, MD

so i would assume, its not a false but i just always wondered how that was possible.

Most likely they were physicians in another countries (MDs or MBBS/MBBCh), couldn't get licensed via the ECFMG process in the US for one reason or another, and went to a DO school here. NYCOM has an Emigre Physicians Program that does just that
http://iris.nyit.edu/nycom/Admissions_EPP_Program.htm

Less likely are old physicians from California who were part of the failed MD/DO merger (and originally got their DO, and later received their MD from what is now UC-Irving for a small amount of cash)

Less likely is someone who is an MD who went overseas and received osteopathy training overseas and received a diploma in osteopathy. Right now in Germany, osteopathy is gaining popularity amongst physicians there (every year there are German doctors who come to PCOM to learn osteopathy). I've met a few DOs who actually went to Europe and received their MD via research (where the MD is a graduate research degree). Not sure what the value of displaying the DO postnominally is unless that person (an MD) practices OMM/OMT

 

[Lamont]

It is pretty rare to come across an MD, DO, but a few do exist for some reason or another. The california thing, if they were pretty young, could have impacted a few still practicing docs.

Regardless, i'll just be happy to have one of those degrees (DO in my case) and the lifetime of explaining to crazy people that I am not in fact an optometrist

 

[DrWBD]

Then that is exactly what will happen if someone were to follow your advice. We have had this discussion multiple times - while most states will recognize the USMLE, as a DO, there are some states that insist on COMLEX (California, Florida, Pennsylvania, etc)

I took USMLE Step 1. I finished the COMLEX series. I got my Resolution 42 approved. I'm eligible for licensure in all 50 states. I'm not beholden to the AOA or any osteopathic group anymore. When I am done, I will take the ABMS Boards. There is nothing to gain by finishing the USMLE series (which in my case would require me to take 2CS and 2CK and Step 3). That's 4 days (Step 3 is a 2 day exam) and thousands of dollars in expenses. I'm not going to use my USMLE scores to sell myself to employers/partners or fellowship programs. I'll use my inservice training exams, and letters of recommendations from various attendings to do that. Once you pass Step 3 (whether it is COMLEX or USMLE), no one cares about it anymore. Ever since passing COMLEX 3, I have not touched any of my osteopathic books (nor do I expect to).

If someone were to follow your advice (and not finish the COMLEX series but finish the USMLE series) - then YES, a few years down the line and this person wants a job in California, or another states that requires COMLEX - then you will have to re-study the osteopathic component and retake the test (COMVEX) - or as you stated "There's nothing quite as sad as seeing a 10 year surgery attending coming back to your school desperately trying to memorize tenderpoints and OMM massage techniques so that he/she can pass boards again".


While you certainly have a right to your opinion and options, to repeatedly post on various forums your distrust and hatred of the AOA and COMLEX (which are valid concerns) but then to suggest that not completing the COMLEX but finish the USMLE is a viable alternative (without mentioning any of the downside) is disingenuous. You may not want to practice in California, or Florida, or the few other states that requires COMLEX, but some of the readers might.

Agreed. I've pointed this out to Old_Mil in the past but to no avail (sigh)

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=6434313#post6434313

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=6870552#post6870552

 

[ShyRem]

 

[homeboy]

Agreed. I've pointed this out to Old_Mil in the past but to no avail (sigh)

I don't recall Old_Mil recommending NOT taking the required COMLEX exams, but agree with his/her belief in the strength of the USMLE exams over the COMLEX: they are better written, require more thought, and the mere fact that students hem & haw about whether or not to take them and whether or not to report the score speaks volumes.

Yes, it's a "risk" to take the USMLE, depending on your situation, but that "risk" is worth taking if you're going to completely exit the "osteopathic community."
IE: you basically jumped through the hoops, you used osteopathic education as a means to an end, then cut ties with the osteopathic world.

If you're not "beholden" to the AOA or any osteopathic group anymore, than don't thumb your sycophantic nose in their face after using them as a means to an end. Suck it up and take the USMLE...at least steps 1 and 2... not because you absolutely have to, but because you could care less about the AOA.

Just my two cents.

 

[DrWBD]

I don't recall Old_Mil recommending NOT taking the required COMLEX exams

Then you aren't paying attention. It's in the first link I provided.

COMLEX Level 3, which Old_Mil advocates not taking, is a 'required' exam for licensure in all 50 states as a DO. Yes, you can get around this by taking all the USMLE Steps and foregoing COMLEX Level 3, but in that case your practice options may be limited if you desire to practice in a state with a separate osteopathic licensing board.

 

[Old_Mil]

Then that is exactly what will happen if someone were to follow your advice. We have had this discussion multiple times - while most states will recognize the USMLE, as a DO, there are some states that insist on COMLEX (California, Florida, Pennsylvania, etc)

"There's nothing quite as sad as seeing a 10 year surgery attending coming back to your school desperately trying to memorize tenderpoints and OMM massage techniques so that he/she can pass boards again".

Yes we have, and granted my strategy does involve avoiding the 5 states + California. That leaves 44 others. As far as the scenario I mentioned, that's precisely what will happen to you if you finish the Comlex series, go OGME, and count on those institutions for your future certification...in all 50 states.

 

[Old_Mil]

Then you aren't paying attention. It's in the first link I provided.

COMLEX Level 3, which Old_Mil advocates not taking, is a 'required' exam for licensure in all 50 states as a DO.

ONLY if you do not have a completed set of USMLE exams.

Yes, you can get around this by taking all the USMLE Steps and foregoing COMLEX Level 3, but in that case your practice options may be limited if you desire to practice in a state with a separate osteopathic licensing board.

Basically, the 5 states + California.

 

[DrWBD]

Yes we have, and granted my strategy does involve avoiding the 5 states + California. That leaves 44 others. As far as the scenario I mentioned, that's precisely what will happen to you if you finish the Comlex series, go OGME, and count on those institutions for your future certification...in all 50 states.

I think you're either confused or being deliberately obtuse.

If you want to never use or be tested on OMT after graduation, you do an ACGME residency after graduation. COMLEX has nothing to do with that. I haven't used any OMT since my last med school class in 2003 and haven't been tested on it since COMLEX Level 3, one year later. I'm only beholden to the AOA to the degree I choose to be, and no more.

You speak about the "5 states" as if it's no big deal. Again, I think you're being disingenuous here. Some of those states are GREAT places to be learning and practicing medicine. California? Pennsylvania? Some of the best hospitals in America are in those states and you think that your strategy somehow affords you 'independence'? As I've mentioned earlier, you're shooting yourself in the foot, whether or not you care to acknowledge it.

 

[J1515]

Yes we have, and granted my strategy does involve avoiding the 5 states + California. That leaves 44 others. As far as the scenario I mentioned, that's precisely what will happen to you if you finish the Comlex series, go OGME, and count on those institutions for your future certification...in all 50 states.

You make it sound like if someone takes the COMLEX they have to be married to the AOA for the rest of their life. In fact, that's not true one bit. I took all three COMLEX steps and I don't plan on ever having to deal with the AOA again once I graduate.