Dear Residents: which medschool should I choose?

[Re-Evolution]

I have decided that this question can be best answered by someone who just went through the matching process, so I took a detour out of the pre-med section and venture into your territory... please be kind

Time to spill the beans:

I am lucky to have gotten into a state school (UC Irvine), and I am waiting to hear back from Duke and Cornell post interview. I am a CA resident, and I want to practice medicine here. I am also not very interested in research and want to focus on the clinical side of medicine. I don't want to go into a super-specialty, but maybe something along the lines of ophthamology.

UC Irvine: Home state, so it'll be easier to match for residency in CA.
Nicer place to live.

Duke/Cornell: Better Reputation.

So my question is, what's more important when it comes to matching? Reputation or Location? And more importantly, which would you choose?

Thanks

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[robotsonic]

It's actually better to post here than in the pre-med section. Now that I'm a fourth year, I have much better insight into the whole med school application process than I did when I was applying.

I would go with the school with the better reputation. Going to school on the east coast probably won't affect your ability to get residency in California, especially since they will know that California is your home state - you won't have to make up excuses for why you want to move there.

My opinion is that you should always choose the option that doesn't limit your opportunities later on. A school with a better reputation will give you more opportunities (in general, but think in terms of tiers rather than individual ranks on the US news list). When applying for residency, the school you attend matters, partly because of the connections you make and the letters of recommendation you will get. UC Irvine isn't a bad school, though, so I don't know how much difference there would be between Irvine and Cornell. Also, having CA letters might help you at CA residency programs... but you could cover your bases by doing elective rotations in CA during your fourth year and getting letters that way.

Finally, you don't know for sure what field you will choose. Ophthalmology is competitive right now, but you might decide that you want to go into something even more competitive. Choose the school with the better reputation so that you will be that much more competitive when applying to residency programs.

 

[Wednesday]

So interesting, I completely disagree with the above poster. I would say go to UCIrvine. But I would also say that it probably won't affect you adversly to go to school in NYC or NC either. I will also say that if you're interested in living in a different area for a few years for the experience, I don't want to discourage that. But if you're doing it purely for reputation of med school, here's the reasons I would favor Irvine:

1. You are already in California. There are SO many people trying to come back and do residency in CA who didn't get into UCs and it's just easier if you're already there. The program director in your chosen specialty will definitely know the PDs and chairs at the other programs in CA (in NY/NC they're more likely gonna know the people on the East Coast) and can put in a personal word for you as well as advise you where you will likely have a chance to match.

2. It's SO MUCH CHEAPER!!! Seriously, think about this. All the UCs are good and PDs know that you out competed LOTS of people to get there (therefore: good reputation) and you will be in so much less debt once you're out.

3. Did I mention that you're already in CA and not competing with all the other people who left the state for med school who are trying to get back. Don't underestimate this.

Okay, that's the perspective from someone who left CA for med school and is trying to get back to the West for residency. We'll see in <2 weeks if that works out, but I am not trying for something hard like opthalmology (very competitive these days and the CA zip code makes those programs all the more desirable and therefore competitive). I really think that med school reputation, especially if you're talking about the UCs, is overrated. Hopefully someone from a UC will contribute so you can get that perspective. But hey, this is a great problem to have, no? Good luck!

 

[Laryngospasm]

It sounds like you would like to go to Irvine but you are worried about reputation. Remember that no matter what anyone says happiness during med school, in as much as this can be achieved, is important and will affect performance. A student with a great overall record from irvine will match before someone with average to below average from duke. Go where you will fit in and be happy, the east coast is very different atmosphere than the west, what will make you happy? I assure you all the UC schools will get you into the field of medicine you choose and not limit you.

 

[phatfarm]

I'm from NorCal too but attending an east coast med school. I'd say go to UCI. Instate tuition is awesome compared with private school tuition. And if you want to return to the Cali for residency, you might as well stay there for med school. If you are good enough to get into UCI med school and potentially some top notch east coast med schools, you'll get into optho.

Go to UCI, get involved in eye research the summer between 1st and 2nd year, do well on your boards, do away rotations your 4th year back in Northern Cali. If all works out, you'll remain in Cali.

Good luck. I'm trying to return to Cali for residency. Stay there if you can.

 

[cchoukal]

I think the best way to decide whether UCI has a good enough "reputation" is to investigate whether their graduates get what you think you want. You mentioned ophthalmology; does UCI place people into ophtho residencies? At good programs? Or do most of the people from UCI who want to do ophtho also rank (and end up in) back up specialties? Now replace ophtho with whatever competitive field you think you might someday be interested in.

I have to agree at least a little with the first responder. I think there are tiers and if you want to end up as a chair of whatever someday, it probably helps to shape your pedigree a little. When I was in graduate school years back, one of my peers opened my eyes to the reality that going to a 2nd tier school pretty much meant not being able to secure faculty jobs at schools higher than that. I think this is somewhat true in medicine as well, but the only way to know for sure, that is to say, the most concrete outcome measure is where the graduates go. Match lists are generally available on schools' websites if you look hard enough. Find them and decide whether the programs/specialties taking people from UCI are "good enough" and go from there.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Money may not buy happiness, but --
happiness is inversely proportional to debt!

Another vote for staying in-state.

 

[missdr]

i'm from cali and chose to go out of state for medical school (was deciding btw ucdavis and out of state). i don't regret my decision but i have no intentions of ever returning to live in cali...if you are pretty sure you want to stay in cali for residency i would DEFINITELY go to uci.
1. the debt is a HUGE issue...don't discount this as i did!!!
2. what the other person said about program directors knowing folks regionally is VERY true. i had a hard time finding people in my fairly well known top tier school who knew a lot about programs across the country
3. i disagree about choosing based on people matching in optho unless you are SURE that is what you want to do. you will most likely change your mind at least 3 times.
4. the east coast is VERY different from the west coast and med school is a stressful time when you want to be comfortable, and as close as possible to your support system...make sure you realize what you are getting into by moving across the country.
uci is a good school and you should go where you will be happiest...it sounds like uci will make you the happiest in terms of your long term goals, but only you know for sure best of luck and CONGRATULATIONS ON GETTING INTO 3 GREAT SCHOOLS!!!!!!!!!

 

[TheMightyAngus]

Say the OP and his/her doppleganger were accepted to both Duke and UCI. The OP chose to attend Duke and his/her doppleganger went to UCI. They earned identical grades and Step 1's, published the same number of papers, and both received excellent LOR's--essentially indistinguishable on paper. Would the name of the OP's med school carry enough value to make him/her a more attractive applicant even though they are essentially the same person, except that the doppleganger has significantly less debt?

 

[miko2005]

You may also be able to get financial aid at Duke/Cornell. I went to a a great private med school and with financial aid, the cost was equivalent to state school. I am graduating with ~$100,000 of debt.

 

[nacho77]

Coming at it from a completely different perspective - what is the life of a Medical Student like at these places? I interviewed at UCI and the residents pretty universally agreed that the Med Students are "pampered" and are not expected to work very hard. I would be extremely surprised if anyone could say that about students at Duke or Cornell.

 

[medgator]

It's important to realize that medical centers may have certain areas where they are exceptionally well-known and/or have strong residency programs. While it is pretty early to know what you want to do, if you have even a remote idea, it would be better to attend the medical school that has a higher success in placing people into a given specialty. For example, you might consider UT-Houston if you were interested in cancer (MD anderson is right there) or U Miami if you were interested in optho (Bascon Palmer is a top 5 program nationally).

 

[cchoukal]

Say the OP and his/her doppleganger were accepted to both Duke and UCI. The OP chose to attend Duke and his/her doppleganger went to UCI. They earned identical grades and Step 1's, published the same number of papers, and both received excellent LOR's--essentially indistinguishable on paper. Would the name of the OP's med school carry enough value to make him/her a more attractive applicant even though they are essentially the same person, except that the doppleganger has significantly less debt?

This is a fine point, but the relavent question is whether the OP is equally likely to accomplish these same things at the two institutions. Will the letters from UCI carry as much weight as those from Duke? Is the OP as likely to get publications at UCI as at Duke? I certainly don't know, but I think that's a more realistic question.

 

[Mirror Form]

Tough call! I wish I could give you a good answer.

Pro's of Cornell / Duke:
-The names of Duke and Cornell could very well open doors for you later on.
-if you get into Cornell, NYC is a phenomenal place to live for a few years, especially during the age as a med student. I'm not so sure about Duke's location though.

Pro's of UCI:
- Once you get into residency, people aren't going to care all that much about where you went to medical school; your residency is what's important. So, if you think you can excel at UCI and still match into a good residency program, that might be a good way of saving 100,000 bucks.

 

[Mirror Form]

BTW, I would strongly advise you not worry too much over this decision until you find out if you got into Cornell and Duke. There is not point in agonizing a lot right now b/c it may be all for nothing.

 

[Soon2BENT]

1. if you have any chance to save money, take it, stay at home and pay in-state tuition and not a private school's bill
2. sunny california
3. if you do well in school you can get a residency anywhere you want no matter where you come from (i got to an ok school, did well, got CA interviews in a semi-competitive field)
4. sunny california
5. i've been told it doesnt matter where you go to medical school, but where you do your residency (refer to #3)
6. sunny california vs. Cornell (winters) or Duke (despite it being south, where would you want to be in december, durham or orange county?)

point is, do well in school, it doesnt matter where you go. just go somewhere where you'll be happy for four years.

 

[Re-Evolution]

Amazing advice guys, I knew I could count on ya'll.

Everyone tells me money isn't a big concern because once you start practicing...yaddi yadda.

Im certainly not stressing over the situation, just trying to find a bearing and gauge how much anticipation I should have for those envelopes that Im expecting from the east coast schools.

 

[skypilot]

This is a fine point, but the relavent question is whether the OP is equally likely to accomplish these same things at the two institutions. Will the letters from UCI carry as much weight as those from Duke? Is the OP as likely to get publications at UCI as at Duke? I certainly don't know, but I think that's a more realistic question.

Publications are completely dependent on the motivation of the student not on the school attended. Research can be done over the summer or during fourth year at away locations.

You are unlikely to produce any Nobel Prize winning research as a med student so anything you do produce, even a paper that reviews the results of other papers, will be a bonus when applying to residency.

 

[kungfufishing]

I would stay in CA. What you do in med school carries more weight than where you went, and UC Irvine is not of ill repute anyway. Being nearer to your family and friends during some difficult years will not only make you a happier person but will also probably have a positive impact on your academic pursuits. If you are wanting to stay in CA for residency being physically present to network would probably help.

 

[LADoc00]

So much confusion...
Do people realize how much the price of UC professional schools has jumped?? They have shot up to over 24K/year according to today's SF Chronicle and will go up AGAIN. I transferred from a UC med school to a top private school and paid 10K LESS a year in tuition due to scholarships, grants etc as well as securing 0% university loans and on top of that I had on campus housing that was practically free.

Seriously, Irvine is a joke. They have wanted to close that med school for years due to the fact the hospital system was losing so much money and the school has been so wracked with scandals, everything from in vitro docs putting embryos in the wrong people and fertilizing eggs with their own sperm to transplant surgeons taking pay offs to move people up the transplant lists....they are the only US med school I know with fully tenured faculty hiding in South America!!! Hahahaha. Probably doesnt matter much tho if you can swing a good residency slot.

 

[JR]

Hey,

I went to UCI Med and I am currently in Ophthalmology residency. Sounds like we need to talk . Send me a PM.

 

[LADoc00]

Here is a simple method when trying to pick between schools, go to google and search on "medical school X and scandal"

Try "UC Irvine medicine scandal" , it produces 38,000 hits, yes 38,000.

Here is no.1 From the LA TIMES:

UC Irvine Hospital's Diagnosis: Denial
The institution gets scathing reviews from embittered former employees. Chancellor concedes its myriad troubles aren't isolated.
By Kimi Yoshino, Times Staff Writer
February 14, 2006


There seems to be one constant in UC Irvine's medical programs: scandal.

For more than a decade, UCI officials have repeatedly ignored red flags, downplayed serious problems, misrepresented facts and punished or fired people who exposed wrongdoing, according to interviews with current and former employees, court records and UCI's own audits. And time and again, UCI's woes end up in headlines and in court

 

[LADoc00]

2. It's SO MUCH CHEAPER!!! Seriously, think about this. All the UCs are good and PDs know that you out competed LOTS of people to get there (therefore: good reputation) and you will be in so much less debt once you're out.

From the UCI website:

First-Year Medical
(10 months) Off campus $40,665
http://www.editor.uci.edu/catalogue/intro/intro.7.htm

From the Harvard website:
2005-2006

Tuition
$35,800

Vanderbilt Hall
(avg. rent)
$6,480

For a total of = $42,280
http://hms.harvard.edu/admissions/?page=costs

FOR A TOTAL UC "SAVINGS" OF $1,615!! WOW Huge savings eh??


If you go to HMS website for financial aid, most solid private schools esp. the likes of Cornell have huge endowments for scholarships and interest free loans etc. so your sticker price is often far greater than what you pay. In the UC system, grants have been and will be dramatically scaled back by the state government in the coming year. You will almost certainly pay the full UC sticker price unless your parents are dirt poor or your an URM.

Not to harp on this point, but the myth of the "Cheap UC Med School Education" is just that, myth. And of all the UC's I would cringe at attending UCI. And by way, your tuition is often locked in at a private med school where the Regents of California have the option of raising it at any time for any reason.

 

[mercedes-benzo]

Something to think about is the way Duke's curriculum is set up. Not only is the reputation better, but the 3rd year will give you time to complete research in a competitive specialty (to help you match), get an MPH or do something else that interests you. I think this increases your appeal to residency programs. I would definitely vote for Duke!

 

[neutropenic]

Something to think about is the way Duke's curriculum is set up. Not only is the reputation better, but the 3rd year will give you time to complete research in a competitive specialty (to help you match), get an MPH or do something else that interests you. I think this increases your appeal to residency programs. I would definitely vote for Duke!

The downside of this is compressing BMS into a very short timeframe. Instead of drinking from a fire hydrant, you'll be drinking from Victoria Falls.

I say SoCal is better than NoCal at all.

 

[Wednesday]

And by way, your tuition is often locked in at a private med school where the Regents of California have the option of raising it at any time for any reason.

My private med school has raised our tuition at least $2000 a year for each of the four years I have attended.

Did UCI reject you or something? You seem to really have it out for them.

 

[supercut]

If you wind up with a choice, go where you wind up with the least debt. The reputation isn't as important as most people think it is. In fact, I think school/residency reptutation is only important if you aspire to be something like a department chair, and even then is not an absolute requirement.

However, your debt burden will have a significant impact on the quality of your life once you are finally done with all the training. Remember it can easily reach the point of being equivalent to a mortgage. You don't want to be making two mortgage payments, do you?

All schools will give you what you need for boards. Doing well on boards is a great door opener.

 

[NinerNiner999]

Go to the state school and excel. Where you do your residency training will impact your job placement more than where you went to school. The value of having family nearby (and not on the other side of the country) cannot be underestimated. I would suggest also traveling to the east coast for away rotations if you go to UCI - it improves your marketability drastically.

 

[cchoukal]

Cost and debt are major issues. I'm actually about 200K in the hole, which, at 3.75% locked in, will cost over $2000 per month every month for 10 years. Plus, because the gov't will only loan you a lifetime max of about 190K, the other 10K is in university loans, which means they cannot be deferred during residency. It's a small amount, but I'm out about $180/month during residency, which pretty much blows. All that said, I went to a state school (albeit the reportedly most expensive state school in the nation).

People assume that state schools are going to be cheaper, but this isn't always the case. As some have pointed out, provate schools tend to have more grants and scholarships available (this was certainly true for me at my private undergrad institution). Anyway, the point is you have to look into it and talk to people at these schools and do the math for your own situation. The exact costs are knowable, so go know them and don't just listen to our vague ramblings.

As for quality, you can definitely get plenty of opportunities at a state school. It's possible to do research, get publications, get interested in a competitive field, get interviews at great places in great specialties no matter where you go to medical school. I went to a middle tier (top 40 in US News, whatever the hell that means) and got interviews at the best programs in the country for a moderately competitive field (fine, anesthesiology). All that said, I think all these things are MORE LIKELY to happen for you if you go to a place where these things are the norm, where they are expected, and where the majority of your peers are doing them.

 

[DrNick2006]

Yuor medical school for the most part will not keep you from any oppertunities. Your medical school effort will determine your competitiveness for residency. Go where you can learn the best.

 

[medgator]

Yuor medical school for the most part will not keep you from any oppertunities. Your medical school effort will determine your competitiveness for residency. Go where you can learn the best.

I would disagree with that somewhat. For the ultra competititive residencies, Research and LORs can be the extra edge you need. Attending a medical school at a major university center with a strong program in that field can definitely give you an edge in that regard, given that most of the applicants to fields like derm, rad onc, ortho, ENT etc. are superstars on paper.