Debt and Income

[Discovery01]

Hey guys,
I have a question about the financial aspect of dentistry. Let's say taht the average debt after dental school is like $200K (including all undergraduate loans). That would be a monthly payment of like (rougly ... I know it depends on interest rate too) of $2,000 a month. Now, if the average income coming out of dental school is like $60-70K, how the heck is this worth it? Given that it takes like 10 years to pay off this debt, for someone starting dental school at like 24 would be done paying the off in his/her late 30s and then would be able to really enjoy his/her degree. Additionally, I'm a little worried about the whole "average salary" concept. I mean... how mcuh do general dentists make... the ADA says $170K net, salary.com says average of 120K gross. I just don't know what this means. Also, what about the fact that if you want to open your own business, you're going to be taking out a lot of loans to make that happen... does that mean that dentists make 120K gross BEFORE paying their debt for opening a dental office? I really don't know mucha bout the business aspect of this so that's why I'm asking. I'd really appreciate your help in figuring this out. Pretty much, I want to know if it's really "worth it" to go into dentistry from the financial angle. Iknow that it has other perks like more flexiblity, autonomy, etc. that is non-monetary, but I'm right now analyzing the financial aspect.

For those of you who are dentists, how exactly do you manage your debt? How much do you make, if you don't mind me asking (at least a range)? How much debt are you in (monthly payments)? Thank you.

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[MALOKINMARTIN]

Great question! I would be really interested to know as well!

 

[Yah-E]

Go to Dentaltown.com for more concise and accurate answers. Mainly SDNers are current students or residents with no luxuries of income yet.

 

[gator1210]

Hey guys,
I have a question about the financial aspect of dentistry. Let's say taht the average debt after dental school is like $200K (including all undergraduate loans). That would be a monthly payment of like (rougly ... I know it depends on interest rate too) of $2,000 a month. Now, if the average income coming out of dental school is like $60-70K, how the heck is this worth it? Given that it takes like 10 years to pay off this debt, for someone starting dental school at like 24 would be done paying the off in his/her late 30s and then would be able to really enjoy his/her degree. Additionally, I'm a little worried about the whole "average salary" concept. I mean... how mcuh do general dentists make... the ADA says $170K net, salary.com says average of 120K gross. I just don't know what this means. Also, what about the fact that if you want to open your own business, you're going to be taking out a lot of loans to make that happen... does that mean that dentists make 120K gross BEFORE paying their debt for opening a dental office? I really don't know mucha bout the business aspect of this so that's why I'm asking. I'd really appreciate your help in figuring this out. Pretty much, I want to know if it's really "worth it" to go into dentistry from the financial angle. Iknow that it has other perks like more flexiblity, autonomy, etc. that is non-monetary, but I'm right now analyzing the financial aspect.

For those of you who are dentists, how exactly do you manage your debt? How much do you make, if you don't mind me asking (at least a range)? How much debt are you in (monthly payments)? Thank you.

Dont worry about the debt. 30 grand a year over 10 years. After you take that out of your salary, you will still be ahead of most bachelor degree grad salaries.

Bachelor degree salary usually start 40-60. 4-5 % increase a year. After four years, they will make 50-70 maybe. I doubt they will get a promo so early in the game.

So as long as you make 100 k, you are even.

I made it simple for you.

 

[J2AZ]

Interest rates on all federal money is now fixed at 6.8% not matter what. In addition you will not be paying off your loans in 10 (unless its the highest interest debt you have). Even then, because there will be no prepayment penalty you can spread your loans over 30 years and make payment towards the principal when you desire.

Here is an amortization scedule. There are better ones on the web but this will help you determine your payment.

http://ray.met.fsu.edu/~bret/amortize.html

 

[NileBDS]

Hey guys,
I have a question about the financial aspect of dentistry. Let's say taht the average debt after dental school is like $200K (including all undergraduate loans). That would be a monthly payment of like (rougly ... I know it depends on interest rate too) of $2,000 a month. Now, if the average income coming out of dental school is like $60-70K, how the heck is this worth it? Given that it takes like 10 years to pay off this debt, for someone starting dental school at like 24 would be done paying the off in his/her late 30s and then would be able to really enjoy his/her degree. Additionally, I'm a little worried about the whole "average salary" concept. I mean... how mcuh do general dentists make... the ADA says $170K net, salary.com says average of 120K gross. I just don't know what this means. Also, what about the fact that if you want to open your own business, you're going to be taking out a lot of loans to make that happen... does that mean that dentists make 120K gross BEFORE paying their debt for opening a dental office? I really don't know mucha bout the business aspect of this so that's why I'm asking. I'd really appreciate your help in figuring this out. Pretty much, I want to know if it's really "worth it" to go into dentistry from the financial angle. Iknow that it has other perks like more flexiblity, autonomy, etc. that is non-monetary, but I'm right now analyzing the financial aspect.

For those of you who are dentists, how exactly do you manage your debt? How much do you make, if you don't mind me asking (at least a range)? How much debt are you in (monthly payments)? Thank you.

Since this isue has been exhausted in every whichsoever possible way, I'll make this brief;

1. Dentistry is not as lucrative nowadays, from a financial standpoint (factoring in the huge cost of education and student loans), whichever way you cut it.
2. If you are in it for the bling, please re-consider. As you mentioned, your first "real income" maybe into your late 30's/early 40's.
3. If by $60-70k you meant post tax, net income, then yes. That sounds reasonable. Avg starting is in the 80's-90's out of school.
4. Get an MBA for half the money and make twice as much.

Dentistry really is an excellent paying job for people who enjoy doing it. It's actually a great way to get paid doing what you like.

 

[NileBDS]

Go to Dentaltown.com for more concise and accurate answers. Mainly SDNers are current students or residents with no luxuries of income yet.

... And listen to this guy.

 

[Lesley]

Dental hygienists in our area are making between $35 - 38/hour, and that's on a two year associate degree with the summer off in between.

Dentists, who work for someone else, make about $45/hour. I'm sure some make more. But, I know this to be true for some. That's with four years of college, four years of dental school and a lot of debt. But, as it has been rightly said, this is a topic that has been exhausted. I've seen some post $350 - 500/day plus collections but remember collections are very different from production especially if you work in a clinic that accepts a lot of capitation and HMO and even PPO plans, which many of them do.

Quite a few dentists out of school make between 60,000-80,000+year depending on the hours they work and the jobs they find. I think the one's who are making over $90,000 a year are really working hard and a lot of hours.

One dentist I know, had a full time associate that was making in the triple figures, a little over one hundred thousand and producing a lot, but left. The dentist thought she was really well paid. But, I keep seeing from the dental students on this forum that have friends who are making a lot more. This may be true. I just can't vouch for $140,000/yr right out of school working as an associate. It doesn't sound right to me.

Go into dentistry because you want to do it, then the money will follow. I did post recently on the "to all you graduating seniors." My last post (post #25 explains how we managed our finances.) I hope that helps. It's a tough decision your faced with making, and nobody can or should make it but you. I'm sure you feel you're jumping with both feet in. And that is exactly what starting dental school feels like. You will own your own decision, and that's a scary thing. I know, I've been there. Good luck. Lesley

Hey guys,
I have a question about the financial aspect of dentistry. Let's say taht the average debt after dental school is like $200K (including all undergraduate loans). That would be a monthly payment of like (rougly ... I know it depends on interest rate too) of $2,000 a month. Now, if the average income coming out of dental school is like $60-70K, how the heck is this worth it? Given that it takes like 10 years to pay off this debt, for someone starting dental school at like 24 would be done paying the off in his/her late 30s and then would be able to really enjoy his/her degree. Additionally, I'm a little worried about the whole "average salary" concept. I mean... how mcuh do general dentists make... the ADA says $170K net, salary.com says average of 120K gross. I just don't know what this means. Also, what about the fact that if you want to open your own business, you're going to be taking out a lot of loans to make that happen... does that mean that dentists make 120K gross BEFORE paying their debt for opening a dental office? I really don't know mucha bout the business aspect of this so that's why I'm asking. I'd really appreciate your help in figuring this out. Pretty much, I want to know if it's really "worth it" to go into dentistry from the financial angle. Iknow that it has other perks like more flexiblity, autonomy, etc. that is non-monetary, but I'm right now analyzing the financial aspect.

For those of you who are dentists, how exactly do you manage your debt? How much do you make, if you don't mind me asking (at least a range)? How much debt are you in (monthly payments)? Thank you.[/QUOTE]

 

[dentwannabe]

What if one was to focus on paying off debt first?

What if I was to pay about 6k per month for 5 years. I used that site to calculate it and I can pay a 300k loan in 5 years if i pay about 6k per month.

Thats about 72,000 per year. If I earn around 100k, I don't see why thats not possible.

I plan on keeping my parents with me so I'd just either sell their house and move em where I get a job (no need for loan). So housing wouldnt be an issue. I'd just work my ass off till I pay my loan off.

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

What if one was to focus on paying off debt first?

What if I was to pay about 6k per month for 5 years. I used that site to calculate it and I can pay a 300k loan in 5 years if i pay about 6k per month.

Thats about 72,000 per year. If I earn around 100k, I don't see why thats not possible.

Lets say I move in with my parents (I would anyway, I plan on looking after them) or sell theirs and move em somewhere else. So housing wouldnt be an issue. I'd just work my ass off till I pay my loan off.

Over $30k goes straight to uncle sam, leaving you with a negative income if you follow your plan.

Your plan has two faults: #1) you need to make over $200k a year to be that aggressive and have a sensible lifestyle--meaning paying your mortgage, insurance(s), car, food, etc

#2) Right now my portfolio has an annualized return of 18% (over 7 years). Granted this is high and I make aggressive investments. If you stay conservative and get an AMF fund you can earn 10% or so. So if you student loan is 6.8% and your investment is 10%, you are in the hole 3.2% plus you are losing compound interest. Big time long term mistake by paying off early

but you do what you like with your money and everyone has their opinion.

 

[dentwannabe]

Over $30k goes straight to uncle sam, leaving you with a negative income if you follow your plan.

Your plan has two faults: #1) you need to make over $200k a year to be that aggressive and have a sensible lifestyle--meaning paying your mortgage, insurance(s), car, food, etc

#2) Right now my portfolio has an annualized return of 18% (over 7 years). Granted this is high and I make aggressive investments. If you stay conservative and get an AMF fund you can earn 10% or so. So if you student loan is 6.8% and your investment is 10%, you are in the hole 3.2% plus you are losing compound interest. Big time long term mistake by paying off early

but you do what you like with your money and everyone has their opinion.

Mortgage I wouldn't have to worry about -- if you read my post you'd see housing would be taken care of. Thats a big chunk.

I've seen some people talking about getting offers of up to 120k after graduation (depends on location). After taxes it would be around take home 90k a year. I don't think my plan is that impractical if I can get 90k/year take home. am i still off? actually, 5 years is probably pushing it, a little more seems more realistic.

I know this conversation is sort of dumb at this point of my life (I havent even started yet) but I was just sort of looking at different options.

I know I would do better if I left the debt at long term (30 year payment) .. thats an obvious duh. Every financial consultant says you should do so. But for personal reasons I'd just like it paid of asap. Well thanks for the insight molarroller.

 

[AhhPuller]

Mortgage I wouldn't have to worry about -- if you read my post you'd see housing would be taken care of. Thats a big chunk.

I've seen some people talking about getting offers of up to 120k after graduation (depends on location). After taxes it would be around take home 90k a year. I don't think my plan is that impractical if I can get 90k/year take home. am i still off? actually, 5 years is probably pushing it, a little more seems more realistic.

I know this conversation is sort of dumb at this point of my life (I havent even started yet) but I was just sort of looking at different options.

I know I would do better if I left the debt at long term (30 year payment) .. thats an obvious duh. Every financial consultant says you should do so. But for personal reasons I'd just like it paid of asap. Well thanks for the insight molarroller.

120K a year and take home is 90K?! Where you livin? Unless if you plan on evading your taxes, it'll be more like high 60s early 70s WITHOUT property taxes.

 

[Lesley]

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[Lesley]

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[Lesley]

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[Lesley]

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[Lesley]

Dear Dentwannabe, We were determined to get rid of our debt as quick as we could. We didn't know how we would send our kids to college and avoid this nightmare for them if we were still paying our student loans too. We had the opportunity to consolidate, but when I worked it out, with the extra interest costs incurred by consolidating and extending the life of the loan, it was not appealing to us. We watch our expenses even now. The car I'm driving now has over 112,000 miles on it, my husbands 90,000, the one car the kids share has 80,000. At least our car insurance is low with old cars, a plus. Our children's education is more important than our transporation. Everyone has their priorities.

However, know you may be working your tail off when you get a job, and dentistry isn't easy, everything doesn't always go as planned, patients complain, lab work may not come back right, your schedule at the clinic may not be at the pace you need to do work you are happy with, the list goes on and on.

Should you ever purchase a practice, you will not only have a debt service for your school loans but also for purchasing the business, employees salaries and, if you don't own the building/office you are working in, a rent payment too. Plus, there is always equipment you will need to replace or purchase to do your work. But, luckily, you can always finance that with another loan payment.

Should you make $100,000 out of school, very feasible, as I said working a lot in a clinic that you may not be thrilled with, your federal taxes may be around 28%, state 6-8% plus social secutiy deductions, health insurance premiums, you will lose almost 35-40% of your income to taxes, etc, maybe more. Again, I am not an accountant. Assuming this leaves you with about $65,000 in income, that's what you'll have to work with, but again I've seen a lot higher incomes reported by students who know recent graduates, so this may be low. I think it would be really helpful if new doctors, came on board to answer this question for you.

Then comes property taxes, car insurance, a car payment, you will need decent, not expensive, transporation, food, all the things you've been borrowing for for the past 4 years. What happens if you get married, have a child, support a wife, suppose you start saving in the next 10 years for your child's education? Even going to a state school, for a newborn today, tuition, room and board and books will require at least $10,000 savings per year starting from birth. And if you get a late start, even more yearly savings will be required. What if you see a great opportunity to buy a practice? When you're working hard and have worked hard for so long, it's very difficult not to reward yourself every so often, even when you are commited to paying off debt. Life happens, and life is expensive.

If you are commited to paying back your student loan, you will and can do it, but if you plan on being a dentist/business owner, debt may be a part of your life, always. Again there are no easy answers. But, it can be done. Not all of us are comfortable with staggering debt. I read an article in USA Today newspaper not long ago about student debt. One kid from Rutgers owed $120,000 for a BA and MA. He commented, I've done everything right, how did I end up with so much school debt for doing the right thing? Your parents for the most part had no need to borrow for their educational expenses, unless they went to professional school and even then it was a 10 year loan, not pleasant, but not 30.

My husband and I never thought things would get this bad. How are students in the middle class who borrow so much for their education going to help provide for their children? What is happening to the middle class? That's the million dollar question. As I've said before to many, not on this board, we felt like an indentured servants to our debt load for so long. We finally got rid of it to start saving for our children. It will be no different for many of you.


My husband joked last night when I discussed some of the things said on this board. He said tell them that "the light at the end of the dental school tunnel is really a freight train." Well that's his opinion; he's certainly the less optimistic one of us. Good luck.

What if one was to focus on paying off debt first?

What if I was to pay about 6k per month for 5 years. I used that site to calculate it and I can pay a 300k loan in 5 years if i pay about 6k per month.

Thats about 72,000 per year. If I earn around 100k, I don't see why thats not possible.

I plan on keeping my parents with me so I'd just either sell their house and move em where I get a job (no need for loan). So housing wouldnt be an issue. I'd just work my ass off till I pay my loan off.

 

[dentwannabe]

Dear Dentwannabe, We were determined to get rid of our debt as quick as we could. We didn't know how we would send our kids to college and avoid this nightmare for them if we were still paying our student loans too. We had the opportunity to consolidate, but when I worked it out, with the extra interest costs incurred by consolidating and extending the life of the loan, it was not appealing to us. We watch our expenses even now. The car I'm driving now has over 112,000 miles on it, my husbands 90,000, the one car the kids share has 80,000. At least our car insurance is low with old cars, a plus. Our children's education is more important than our transporation. Everyone has their priorities.

However, know you may be working your tail off when you get a job, and dentistry isn't easy, everything doesn't always go as planned, patients complain, lab work may not come back right, your schedule at the clinic may not be at the pace you need to do work you are happy with, the list goes on and on.

Should you ever purchase a practice, you will not only have a debt service for your school loans but also for purchasing the business, employees salaries and, if you don't own the building/office you are working in, a rent payment too. Plus, there is always equipment you will need to replace or purchase to do your work. But, luckily, you can always finance that with another loan payment.

Should you make $100,000 out of school, very feasible, as I said working a lot in a clinic that you may not be thrilled with, your federal taxes may be around 28%, state 6-8% plus social secutiy deductions, health insurance premiums, you will lose almost 35-40% of your income to taxes, etc, maybe more. Again, I am not an accountant. Assuming this leaves you with about $65,000 in income, that's what you'll have to work with, but again I've seen a lot higher incomes reported by students who know recent graduates, so this may be low. I think it would be really helpful if new doctors, came on board to answer this question for you.

Then comes property taxes, car insurance, a car payment, you will need decent, not expensive, transporation, food, all the things you've been borrowing for for the past 4 years. What happens if you get married, have a child, support a wife, suppose you start saving in the next 10 years for your child's education? Even going to a state school, for a newborn today, tuition, room and board and books will require at least $10,000 savings per year starting from birth. And if you get a late start, even more yearly savings will be required. What if you see a great opportunity to buy a practice? When you're working hard and have worked hard for so long, it's very difficult not to reward yourself every so often, even when you are commited to paying off debt. Life happens, and life is expensive.

If you are commited to paying back your student loan, you will and can do it, but if you plan on being a dentist/business owner, debt may be a part of your life, always. Again there are no easy answers. But, it can be done. Not all of us are comfortable with staggering debt. I read an article in USA Today newspaper not long ago about student debt. One kid from Rutgers owed $120,000 for a BA and MA. He commented, I've done everything right, how did I end up with so much school debt for doing the right thing? Your parents for the most part had no need to borrow for their educational expenses, unless they went to professional school and even then it was a 10 year loan, not pleasant, but not 30.

My husband and I never thought things would get this bad. How are students in the middle class who borrow so much for their education going to help provide for their children? What is happening to the middle class? That's the million dollar question. As I've said before to many, not on this board, we felt like an indentured servants to our debt load for so long. We finally got rid of it to start saving for our children. It will be no different for many of you.


My husband joked last night when I discussed some of the things said on this board. He said tell them that "the light at the end of the dental school tunnel is really a freight train." Well that's his opinion; he's certainly the less optimistic one of us. Good luck.

Lesley, thank you for your insightful post. I really do appreciate it. Ah, well I'll see how it works out. I had no idea it was 40%. I thought that income was in the 30% tax bracket. well, learn something new everyday. Well, then, I don't know if this post explains all the "happy, successful" dentists. Whats up with them? Whatever are they on?? Someone let me know...

 

[Lesley]

Hi Dentalwannabe, As I have said, I am not an accountant, actually, my brother-in-law is, and he's done much better than my husband and I, financially speaking, and primarily from one income!

I don't understand all that much about finances, and if it sounds like I know something, it's really little, but I'm sharing anyway to the best of my knowledge. I do know there is state and federal taxes and social security taken out of everyone's paycheck. A couple of states have no state taxes, but most are in the 5-8% bracket, your federal taxes are additional to state taxes, social security is also a separate deduction.

All I know, is that when we talk in this country about other countries and their high taxes, Sweden for example, 55%, last I heard, and you realize that includes their taxes, pension payments, health care and almost a free education, it almost sounds cheap compared to state, federal, social security payments, sales tax, health insurance premiums and deductibles, and the very high cost we spend in this country to educate ourselves. I'm sure we're spending more than 55% of our income on those costs alone. But, that is another whole topic.

I know when I started Temple, we lined up at the Bursars Office to basically redeem our student loan vouchers to settle our first semester bills, I felt like I wanted to run or keep getting in the back of the line. I knew once I started I wouldn't be able to quit. I wouldn't be able to afford to quit or choose not practice dentistry, should I decide it wasn't right for me. I know someone who started dental school over 12 years ago. She left after 1 1/2 years and still owes most of the debt from that period. It's a nightmare for her.

I think you should be sure when you start, if you are, then you're ready. One of the oral sugeons we refer to said, we're happy because we've kept our expectations really low. That's what you will need to do. I recently went to a dental meeting, where members of the group were sharing topics. One of the dentists, my age, got remarried later and has young children in elementary school flashed a slide of his children at the end of his presentation. He said, this is the only reason I do what I do. I find that depressing. Incidentally, as he's worried about his kid's college education, he's trying to increase the size of his patient load and just bought patient records from another dentist who, in his early 50's, just had it with dentistry and wanted out, period. I was told he's mountain climbing in Tibet now. I think that was a joke though!

With student loans until you are 60, what happens if you don't like it at 50, your neck and back hurt from decades of being slumped over your patients and your next payment is due the beginning of the month? I would be nauseous now if I thought I had another 5 years, 60 payments left. For someone starting later, 60 will seem like a dream.

I don't know what to tell you, it's not the right decision for my children, now young adults. This, I can honestly say. But the demographics are good, and if dentistry doesn't get swallowed up by national health care and some of these clinics that cater to capitation plans don't become a large portion of the market, things should be good. But as it's getting so expensive to open a business on top of the education debt, more new dentists are working for other dentists and clinics. If this means more clinics open that accept capitation, HMO's and PPO's, it will be a dangerous turn for the dental profession. Nobody knows what our profession holds. But, I do feel that small dental offices in the next decade or two will go the way of the dinosaurs. Very best wishes.

ps

As far as the happy dentists, some, as Family MD said on the "To all you graduating seniors" thread, take antidepressants. Unfortunately, this is true of many professionals. But I know many who are very happy in debt. Nice cars, nice home, nice vacations, nice payments, nothing saved for their children's educations, not to worry, they'll borrow for that too!

A lucky few, about 12.5% of all graduating dentists, according the the ADEA Annual Survey of graduating dentists, and pretty consistantly over the years, have no debt, thanks more than likely to Mom and Dad, trust funds, etc. Another almost 10% have very little debt in the $10,000-100,000 range. The average graduating debt for all dental students, according to the 2004 survey is $122,000. This may sound absurd to many of you. When we graduated in the early 80's the average debt was $20,000, yet for me and others who paid for everything on their own it was over $60,000, and that was at Temple, not U of Penn. These surveys can be found on the web. A concise page is available for 2004, but for 2005 only the full length document is only available. At least that is all I can glean for now.

A lot of people can carry a lot of debt and sleep well at night, but can you? That is all you need to know for a happy life and to make decisions that will keep you comfortable. Life can be very good. Always make your own decisons, you're the one who has to live with them, and look before you leap. I'm sure this advice is nothing new, but bears repeating.




be]Lesley, thank you for your insightful post. I really do appreciate it. Ah, well I'll see how it works out. I had no idea it was 40%. I thought that income was in the 30% tax bracket. well, learn something new everyday. Well, then, I don't know if this post explains all the "happy, successful" dentists. Whats up with them? Whatever are they on?? Someone let me know... [/QUOTE]

 

[gdunk]

hello all....i was just reading through this section about the costs to dental school and the time to pay it back and what not.......well if, like for most people they have to come up with the money for school...not from parents....what would be the downfall of having the navy or army pay for it? I know that you would have to relocate for like 4 years then be in the reserves for a few years after that.....would if be worth doing this based on the fact that they pay for your housing and whatnot and you then leave without any dept? or would the little money you would make doing this added to the tuition they paid for be less than taking out loans and subtracted from the total money you would make in those 4-7 years after dental school if you were on your own.

just some random thoughts even though i am not into dental school ( have not been accepted yet) but keep getting emails and packets in the mail from the recruiters saying "its not to late to apply".

does anyone know any info on this or know someone who has taken this road and what they think of it? Thanks!

 

[Lesley]

Good question. I was in the Navy. I joined while I was in dental school the beginning of my junior year. They weren't offering any scholarships, but at the time if I joined, I would have a guaranteed job when I finished school. They were not accepting everybody. The application was a process and you had to have recommendations from faculty. Around 1980-81, unemployment was 8-9 %. I knew I needed a job, I didn't want to work in a DPA clinic and I had a lot of debt coming due. By being in the reserves, with no pay or benefits, my salary was larger than if I had waited to join when I graduated. I started as a Lieutenant, with two years in. I think at the time my salary was about $25,000/yr, before taxes. My husband, also a dentist, worked for a dentist who paid him $15 an hour. My military commitment was three years of active duty starting in 82 to be followed by reserve duty for three years, ending my obligation by 88. Well, in 1990 I started receiving post cards, "Hi, and what courses have you been taking?" I ignored the first couple, I mean I thought I was done. After, I received another one or two, I called Louisiana and asked them to stop sending me cards, I had two young children to take care of and a business; I found the post cards unnerving. To my surprise, I was still in. As a commissioned officer, you're in until you resign your commission and it is accepted by the Department of the Navy. I guess they forgot to tell me that when I finished active duty. So, I quickly dashed off the paperwork requesting discharge. I was told it takes at most a few weeks, it took months. Shortly before Desert Storm, I received my honorable discharge. The moral to this story, is once you're in, you're in until they let you go. We are in a time of uncertainity and war, the military has a shortage of dentists, I know, my hygienist is in the National Guard and has already spent a tour of duty in Iraq, she has told me so. Those are the facts. The option is there for you, a free education is very appealing. I hope you find this information useful.

hello all....i was just reading through this section about the costs to dental school and the time to pay it back and what not.......well if, like for most people they have to come up with the money for school...not from parents....what would be the downfall of having the navy or army pay for it? I know that you would have to relocate for like 4 years then be in the reserves for a few years after that.....would if be worth doing this based on the fact that they pay for your housing and whatnot and you then leave without any dept? or would the little money you would make doing this added to the tuition they paid for be less than taking out loans and subtracted from the total money you would make in those 4-7 years after dental school if you were on your own.

just some random thoughts even though i am not into dental school ( have not been accepted yet) but keep getting emails and packets in the mail from the recruiters saying "its not to late to apply".

does anyone know any info on this or know someone who has taken this road and what they think of it? Thanks!

 

[aggie-master]

I plan on owing just under 100K when I get out of dental school, with about 30K of that being at 1.6% interest.

I don't think it will be that bad.

 

[Lesley]

$100,000 is not bad. In fact, if you read the ps in a previous post on this thread. You would be among the lucky 20% with little - $100,000 in debt, every one else is above that figure, as per the ADEA 2004 survey of graduating dental students. Good luck.

I plan on owing just under 100K when I get out of dental school, with about 30K of that being at 1.6% interest.

I don't think it will be that bad.

 

[talyanech]

$100,000 is not bad. In fact, if you read the ps in a previous post on this thread. You would be among the lucky 20% with little - $100,000 in debt, every one else is above that figure, as per the ADEA 2004 survey of graduating dental students. Good luck.

My debt is gonna be around 300K or if I get in the specialty then closer to 500 so I really don't know whether it's worth it plus I'm hesitating if I really want to do dentistry that much, I have my degree from another country and I got in dental school here, my classes are about to start in a month and only now after all these efforts I started thinking if I really want it that much. I want to have a profession I love and I want to make very good living, I thought that dentistry is what I wanted but now I'm very confused and lost. I don't have any financial support from anybody and don't want to be in this huge debt for the next 30 years...so don't know what to do.

 

[gdunk]

My debt is gonna be around 300K or if I get in the specialty then closer to 500 so I really don't know whether it's worth it plus I'm hesitating if I really want to do dentistry that much, I have my degree from another country and I got in dental school here, my classes are about to start in a month and only now after all these efforts I started thinking if I really want it that much. I want to have a profession I love and I want to make very good living, I thought that dentistry is what I wanted but now I'm very confused and lost. I don't have any financial support from anybody and don't want to be in this huge debt for the next 30 years...so don't know what to do.

..yeah you should definitely do some soul searching and decide if dentistry is really the profession for you....i think you should do what you think will make you happy doing......money should be the second thing to think about...unless you dont really want to do something.


Lesley- thanks for the reply..i guess there is just a lot of avenues that have to be researched before signing into something like the navy.

 

[Lesley]

I think going to dental school is a big life decision. It effects the next four years and the next 30 after that. If you're only 22 now, think about it, you're making a decision that will impact the next 34 years of your life. You haven't even lived that long. If you get in a marriage you don't like, you can divorce, a house you can't afford, you can sell it, but once you start dental school, you really have to finish, if you're borrowing a lot of money. You can not discharge your student loans, even in illness. They may allow you to not make payments, but the interest will still be ticking. My husband and I are in our early 50's and I can tell you we can't work full time anymore. We, my husband especially, is burnt out. This is why 30 year student loans scare me. It limits your choices and options. Luckily, as with everything in our marriage, we've always shared responsibilities, financial and family. So, for us, our backs and necks, we split one doctor's schedule, and we're very happy. This is only a recent event. It took us a while to realize what we needed to do to make us happy. So, I know how hard it is to make decisions sometimes. We never liked managing a large staff, been there and done that, and this new schedule allows us to keep things small. My husband would love to do just hygiene. As he's told me many times, dentistry is all he's trained for. Dentistry is not a flexible field. If we ever sell our practice, he would never want to own a dental practice again. He wants to go to work, "do hygiene," go home and golf. He's a pretty simple guy. I don't care if we're not making a lot, prior to the lighter schedule we were participating with a large group of PPO's. Our fee may have been $950 for a crown, but we were only allowed to charge the patient and insurance company, for example, a total of $540. Fifty cents on the dollar. It's a tough way to earn a living. With dentistry, the dentist gets paid last. For an established practice, running at full capacity, with little debt that may be good. But for most of the practice I know where the pressure is huge to accept PPO's otherwise you may not have enough patients to fill the day. It's difficult. The way I look at it, we never did earn a fortune, we always had to give a huge chunk of it back to the banks for lending it to us in dental school, just paying our bills for the first decade after dental school felt like a minor miracles. A lot of the dentists who are more up on dentistry, are late 50's and early 60's who didn't have to borrow, or so little compared to their income that the stress of school loans was a burden they've never had to bare. If you're not sure, maybe you can tell the school your reservations, and they can hold a spot for you for next year while you become more firm in your decision.
Again good luck, I really mean it.

..yeah you should definitely do some soul searching and decide if dentistry is really the profession for you....i think you should do what you think will make you happy doing......money should be the second thing to think about...unless you dont really want to do something.


Lesley- thanks for the reply..i guess there is just a lot of avenues that have to be researched before signing into something like the navy.

 

[WildcatDMD]

Most depressing thread ever.

 

[Lesley]

Sorry

Most depressing thread ever.

 

[WildcatDMD]

It's interesting that my parents' friend who is an accountant has only amazing things to say about the earnings prospects in dentistry from his experience with his clients (some of whom he is lining up for possible associate positions when I graduate). It is amazing to me that two dentists could not make together more money than they know what to do with. Perhaps it is a location issue?

 

[Lesley]

Hi, One of my Brother in Law's is an accountant, CPA, and has his own firm. He has a lot of medical and dental accounts and dental. He doesn't have a lot of positive comments in general about his dental accounts. He graduated from college with no debt and started a very sucessful business. My other brother in law is a dentist, too. He sold his practice about 8 years ago. Couldn't make a living, not even $70,000/yr., and is doing better working for other people. He couldn't handle the insurance companies and their plans. Luckily, he sold the building and then sold the practice piece meal, records, equipment. I've met dentists, even in their late 50's, who got a very inexpensive college and dental education and have barely helped their children with their educations. This, I too, don't understand. My B-I-L the dentist, allowed each kid $16,000 total for four years of college, granted that was a few years ago, but even then $4,000/year did not go far, anything over that amount, they had to borrow. Look, we're not doing badly we've paid off the debt and are putting our kids through undergrad. We were always able to split our schedule when the kids were little, so we put them in day care as little as possible. I don't know if we could have done it if we weren't both working and only collecting enough to cover one household. Maybe we could have just done as well, being two teachers having summers off, no school debt and would be both retiring now with a good pension a piece and health care for life. Before I was finished my military duty, we bought a business, a home and school loans, the debt totaled a half a million dollars. The average four bedroom home in our area was about $80,000-100,000 at the time. We owed more than 5 homes. Five mortgages for anyone is a lot, but that's just my opinion. As my father often said to me, how do you sleep at night? You do, because you're so exhausted taking care of patients, the business and the kids, and you get through it. I hope to hear you've got your first million in the bank in a few years, but maybe it won't be quite so easy. Good luck.

It's interesting that my parents' friend who is an accountant has only amazing things to say about the earnings prospects in dentistry from his experience with his clients (some of whom he is lining up for possible associate positions when I graduate). It is amazing to me that two dentists could not make together more money than they know what to do with. Perhaps it is a location issue?

 

[AhhPuller]

Hi, One of my Brother in Law's is an accountant, CPA, and has his own firm. He has a lot of medical and dental accounts and dental. He doesn't have a lot of positive comments in general about his dental accounts. He graduated from college with no debt and started a very sucessful business. My other brother in law is a dentist, too. He sold his practice about 8 years ago. Couldn't make a living, not even $70,000/yr., and is doing better working for other people. He couldn't handle the insurance companies and their plans. Luckily, he sold the building and then sold the practice piece meal, records, equipment. I've met dentists, even in their late 50's, who got a very inexpensive college and dental education and have barely helped their children with their educations. This I too don't understand. My B-I-L the dentist, allowed each kid $16,000 total for four years of college, granted that was a few years ago, but even then $4,000/year did not go far, anything over that amount, they had to borrow. Look, we're not doing badly we've paid off the debt and are putting our kids through undergrad. We were always able to split our schedule when the kids were little, so we put them in day care as little as possible. I don't know if we could have done it if we weren't both working and only collecting enough to cover one household. Maybe we could have just done as well, being two teachers having summers off, no school debt and would be both retiring now with a good pension a piece and health care for life. Before I was finished my military duty, we bought a business, a home and school loans, the debt totaled a half a million dollars. The average four bedroom home in our area was about $80,000 at the time. We owed more than 5 homes. Five mortgages for anyone is a lot, but that's just my opinion. As my father often said to me, how do you sleep at night? You do, because you're so exhausted taking care of patients, the business and the kids, and you get through it. I hope to hear you've got your first million in the bank in a few years, but maybe it won't be quite so easy. Good luck.

Maybe you should try to do some dental work instead of posting on SDN. That might increase your income.

 

[Lesley]

Thanks for the advice!

Maybe you should try to do some dental work instead of posting on SDN. That might increase your income.

 

[CallMeAl]

Most depressing thread ever.

If you think this is depressing, goto Dentaltown and see what other practicing dentists are saying about debtload. Its scary!!! Looks like reality is gonna hit us hard real soon!

I dont think anyone is denying that the income potential for dentists is huge, but coupled with extremely large debts, on top of extremely large overheads to run a successful practice, it makes you really think. From what Ive gathered on Dentaltown, the overwhelming consensus is to goto the cheapest school and if that is not an option, make sure you are going into dentistry not for the money but because you really enjoy it. There is nothing wrong with that.

Dont get me wrong, I love the job......but after that long and STRESSFUL journey to the DMD, you'd think the payoff would be sooner and not way later. I dont know about any of you guys, but I dont appreciate going through this hell that is called dental school so I can start living "comfortable" in my 40s......I wanna live comfortable by my mid-30s at least!!! what do you guys think? Am I crazy??

 

[dexadental]

If you think this is depressing, goto Dentaltown and see what other practicing dentists are saying about debtload. Its scary!!! Looks like reality is gonna hit us hard real soon!

I dont think anyone is denying that the income potential for dentists is huge, but coupled with extremely large debts, on top of extremely large overheads to run a successful practice, it makes you really think. From what Ive gathered on Dentaltown, the overwhelming consensus is to goto the cheapest school and if that is not an option, make sure you are going into dentistry not for the money but because you really enjoy it. There is nothing wrong with that.

Dont get me wrong, I love the job......but after that long and STRESSFUL journey to the DMD, you'd think the payoff would be sooner and not way later. I dont know about any of you guys, but I dont appreciate going through this hell that is called dental school so I can start living "comfortable" in my 40s......I wanna live comfortable by my mid-30s at least!!! what do you guys think? Am I crazy??

If you are so committed to having zero debt, look into the HPSP program, atleast a two year committment could slash your debt in half...I myself am still considering this option.

 

[WildcatDMD]

The dentist I work for on saturdays works as an associate 20 hrs a week and brings home around $120k/yr just from that (he has another job at a community health center as dental director which brings another $40k). He has a busy schedule, but nothing ridiculous. He does mostly composite restorations (usually 2 per pt/ per apt usually about 5-8 of these pts/day -on a 6 hr saturday morning) with usually 1-2 crown preps and 1-2 crown seatings/day. He also does a few new pt consults, hygiene checks, emergency visits, and endo cases (on occasion). Nothing unreasonable. Not too much complicated fixed or "esthetic" work. He gets 33% production and has to pay a percentage of the lab fees. The patients are mostly middle class. He's been out of school for 5 years. That seems pretty livable to me.

I understand that he is not married and has no kids, but even if he did, $160k is a lot more than the average family earns.

I can only see income going up from there with more complicated cases and "esthetic" work. Perhaps I am missing something? The owner dentist does 8-10 fixed cases a day (don't ask me how he treatment plans that, I haven't assisted him--most are apparently for esthetic purposes). He brings in over a million a year (take home) with that and his cut of the associates' production (there are a few associates).

It seems that you can make decent $ as an associate with good pt skills and moderate speed with simple bread and butter procedures, and ridiculous money with some good business sense and the right patient marketing.

The owner dentist my be the exception, but I see nothing special about the associate bringing in this kind of income ($160k/yr). How can 2 dentists not make more than this? (I hope that doesn't come across as rude, I'm just concerned that I am missing something and will be a poor dentist).

 

[dentwannabe]

The dentist I work for on saturdays works as an associate 20 hrs a week and brings home around $120k/yr just from that (he has another job at a community health center as dental director which brings another $40k). He has a busy schedule, but nothing ridiculous. He does mostly composite restorations (usually 2 per pt/ per apt usually about 5-8 of these pts/day -on a 6 hr saturday morning) with usually 1-2 crown preps and 1-2 crown seatings/day. He also does a few new pt consults, hygiene checks, emergency visits, and endo cases (on occasion). Nothing unreasonable. Not too much complicated fixed or "esthetic" work. He gets 33% production and has to pay a percentage of the lab fees. The patients are mostly middle class. He's been out of school for 5 years. That seems pretty livable to me.

I understand that he is not married and has no kids, but even if he did, $160k is a lot more than the average family earns.

I can only see income going up from there with more complicated cases and "esthetic" work. Perhaps I am missing something? The owner dentist does 8-10 fixed cases a day (don't ask me how he treatment plans that, I haven't assisted him--most are apparently for esthetic purposes). He brings in over a million a year (take home) with that and his cut of the associates' production (there are a few associates).

It seems that you can make decent $ as an associate with good pt skills and moderate speed with simple bread and butter procedures, and ridiculous money with some good business sense and the right patient marketing.

The owner dentist my be the exception, but I see nothing special about the associate bringing in this kind of income ($160k/yr). How can 2 dentists not make more than this? (I hope that doesn't come across as rude, I'm just concerned that I am missing something and will be a poor dentist).

Good post. See, these are the stories that give me motivation to get off the depression pills...



ON A SIDE NOTE: What can we do to pressure some private schools to lower their costs. It truly is ridiculous (50,000 a year in tuition at NYU).. cmon, wtf extra are we learning that our fellow d-students in texas only pay 20,000??

 

[aggie-master]

It truly is ridiculous (50,000 a year in tuition at NYU).. cmon, wtf extra are we learning that our fellow d-students in texas only pay 20,000??

Texas is allsome. When you combine low tuition and fees with a wife working to pay the bills it makes the dental school debt situation a lot better.

btw, I don't want to go against the point of this thread, but both dentists that I shadowed made over the average salary that the ADA mentioned. One made probably twice the average or better.

 

[loro627]

Good post. See, these are the stories that give me motivation to get off the depression pills...



ON A SIDE NOTE: What can we do to pressure some private schools to lower their costs. It truly is ridiculous (50,000 a year in tuition at NYU).. cmon, wtf extra are we learning that our fellow d-students in texas only pay 20,000??

20k?!! At LSU it's only a little over 10k. The main reason why I picked a state school!!

 

[CallMeAl]

I just dont know if these associate salaries that I always hear about are the real deal or perhaps an odd case or perhaps people talking more than they should (we see that with SDN all the time with people always posting ridiculously high stats!!! is that representative of what really is going on???)

also, I dont like the argument when people say to not worry because other people are doing it......because 10 years ago, dental tuition was like $1....so of course thats doable.....but tuition is increasing at like 5% per year and now its so damn high compared to what current dentists pay. So when you ask dentists for advice, Ive found you get different answers if you clue them into the reality of current dental students. For instance,

Whenever I ask a dentist: "Im worried about my debt, is it worth it?"
Dentist replies: "of course.....i make a very good living"

But when I rephrase it to include: Im worried about my debt of $300K, is it worth it?

Dentist always replies: "Oh my god, thats how much dental school is these days!!!!"

Too bad none of us had a time machine so we can actually stop saying "my dentist said this, my friend's barber's dentists wife said this" and go into the future to actually see what the outlook is for ourselves. Ok, that was a stupid suggestion and made no sense.

 

[The Wop]

What if you're lucky enough to go through dental school and specialize without accumulating ANY debt and even having some money left over to start a practice/buy house/car/etc... ?

I assume that must be an entirely different ball game. Can anyone elaborate beyond "lucky bastard"?

 

[pre-dent]

Thank GOD I can pay for my tuition. By the time I graduate Dental I will have zero debt. If I choose to pay for it, so far all my tuition is paid for.

Question for everyone here. I have a friend who says that I should get loans for dental school and save that money for a future practice, I disagree though. Do I really want to go through the hassel of getting loans??? What do you guys think??? I will have enough stress in d-school all ready, why add more?
If I get excepted to SIU, which is only 60,000 for the whole 4 years I can pay for dental school and for a decent practice. But if I get into like USC or UIC which are both some of the most expensive schools, I can only pay for dental school and give a decent down payment towards a practice and would still own my home, fully paid for. Do you think I should get loans anyways??? Not sure about this??

Thanks in advanced

Mel

 

[Lesley]

No, you are not crazy. It's everything you wrote about in your post and all that I have discussed. Many of my peer's situations are not due to their locations or being bad business people. While in dental school and before dental school, I thought all there was to doing dentistry was doing dental work. I never thought about running a business too. Doing both, I have found, is like the principal of the school and teaching a second grade class too. It's overwhelming. But, it's amazing how well we can all function under pressure. It's one of my best traits, I didn't know I had it me, I learned it in dental school. I just think payments are hard to contemplate as a student. Again, I'm sorry wildcat for hitting a nerve. I'm not sure if it's the dental school debt that is bothering you or the income potential or both. No one is talking about it in dental school not the administration or the professors. It's a sin that this is not discussed. More practice management courses should be given and a lot more financial advising should be available and marketed to pre dental students. My husband says if you want to believe the debt isn't going to make a difference to you then drills taste like lollipops and decay smells like roses. Have it your way. We are or were in the same boat, just at different times. This thread has been my story, maybe yours will be better. But, I'm putting it out there for those students who asked about student debt and dentists. This is what it has meant to me. Go into dentistry because you love working with your hands, you have patience, that doing good work makes you feel good, that when a patient likes your work, has a painless root canal or extraction, you feel proud when they call you doctor. This feels very good inside. Do not do it for the money, for all the reasons you stated and have been repeated in so many threads. Good night.

If you think this is depressing, goto Dentaltown and see what other practicing dentists are saying about debtload. Its scary!!! Looks like reality is gonna hit us hard real soon!

I dont think anyone is denying that the income potential for dentists is huge, but coupled with extremely large debts, on top of extremely large overheads to run a successful practice, it makes you really think. From what Ive gathered on Dentaltown, the overwhelming consensus is to goto the cheapest school and if that is not an option, make sure you are going into dentistry not for the money but because you really enjoy it. There is nothing wrong with that.

Dont get me wrong, I love the job......but after that long and STRESSFUL journey to the DMD, you'd think the payoff would be sooner and not way later. I dont know about any of you guys, but I dont appreciate going through this hell that is called dental school so I can start living "comfortable" in my 40s......I wanna live comfortable by my mid-30s at least!!! what do you guys think? Am I crazy??

 

[Yah-E]

I will have $500K in loans when I finish and I'm not worried one bit and yet still taking out more loans. For those of you with or will be with a meesy $200K loans, grow some spine and suck it up. If you can't make money with Dentistry, then it's your fault, your lack of business savy and your lack of motivation/determination.

Businesses and demands are out there, if you can't cash it in, then don't blame on the profession. Keep in mind people, there will always be dentists that don't make it, but it is the minority. Do all CEOs make it? Do all Plastic Surgeons make it big? The answer is NO! There will always be poor dentists or what I will call "unsuccessful poor SOBs". They do poor, good! More business for me and for others who are more business savy.

 

[Lesley]

I would choose zero debt. You don't know what practice situations may be available to you in the future. Maybe the dentist you work with will let you buy into the practice with money you are making during the first few years. Little or zero debt would give you lots of opportunity to explore your options. The exception to this if you can get any subsidized student loans. I think you are allowed $8,500/year. This money will have a small origination fee, but no interest will accumulate through your four years of dental school. It's basically an interest free loan. If you don't need the money at the end of your four years, you can pay off the note or put it to good use if an opportunity arises. Good luck.

Thank GOD I can pay for my tuition. By the time I graduate Dental I will have zero debt. If I choose to pay for it, so far all my tuition is paid for.

Question for everyone here. I have a friend who says that I should get loans for dental school and save that money for a future practice, I disagree though. Do I really want to go through the hassel of getting loans??? What do you guys think??? I will have enough stress in d-school all ready, why add more?
If I get excepted to SIU, which is only 60,000 for the whole 4 years I can pay for dental school and for a decent practice. But if I get into like USC or UIC which are both some of the most expensive schools, I can only pay for dental school and give a decent down payment towards a practice and would still own my home, fully paid for. Do you think I should get loans anyways??? Not sure about this??

Thanks in advanced

Mel

 

[speedy3816]

IMO, this is a great thread.... it has really brought quite a bit of reality to the table, it's good (yet, slightly depressing I must agree) to see a thread like this, b/c it calms down this notion that most pre-dents seem to have about being super rich right out of school. Thanks Lesley for the insight.

 

[klfb80]

I think going to dental school is a big life decision. It effects the next four years and the next 30 after that. If you're only 22 now, think about it, you're making a decision that will impact the next 34 years of your life. You haven't even lived that long. If you get in a marriage you don't like, you can divorce, a house you can't afford, you can sell it, but once you start dental school, you really have to finish, if you're borrowing a lot of money. You can not discharge your student loans, even in illness. They may allow you to not make payments, but the interest will still be ticking. My husband and I are in our early 50's and I can tell you we can't work full time anymore. We, my husband especially, is burnt out. This is why 30 year student loans scare me. It limits your choices and options. Luckily, as with everything in our marriage, we've always shared responsibilities, financial and family. So, for us, our backs and necks, we split one doctor's schedule, and we're very happy. This is only a recent event. It took us a while to realize what we needed to do to make us happy. So, I know how hard it is to make decisions sometimes. We never liked managing a large staff, been there and done that, and this new schedule allows us to keep things small. My husband would love to do just hygiene. As he's told me many times, dentistry is all he's trained for. Dentistry is not a flexible field. If we ever sell our practice, he would never want to own a dental practice again. He wants to go to work, "do hygiene," go home and golf. He's a pretty simple guy. I don't care if we're not making a lot, prior to the lighter schedule we were participating with a large group of PPO's. Our fee may have been $950 for a crown, but we were only allowed to charge the patient and insurance company, for example, a total of $540. Fifty cents on the dollar. It's a tough way to earn a living. With dentistry, the dentist gets paid last. For an established practice, running at full capacity, with little debt that may be good. But for most of the practice I know where the pressure is huge to accept PPO's otherwise you may not have enough patients to fill the day. It's difficult. The way I look at it, we never did earn a fortune, we always had to give a huge chunk of it back to the banks for lending it to us in dental school, just paying our bills for the first decade after dental school felt like a minor miracles. A lot of the dentists who are more up on dentistry, are late 50's and early 60's who didn't have to borrow, or so little compared to their income that the stress of school loans was a burden they've never had to bare. If you're not sure, maybe you can tell the school your reservations, and they can hold a spot for you for next year while you become more firm in your decision.
Again good luck, I really mean it.

I'm not quite sure here, but it sounds like you and your husband may have made some bad decisions. You must be living in the boondocks. I mean if two dentists married to each other can't make it in dentistry then there is something wrong. So tell us where are you practicing because i'll be sure to stay away from that area. You however, must know better than I because you have lived it. As far as dentistry being hard work, there is no doubt that it is, but I can think of many other jobs that are more phisically and mentally challenging that I want nothing to do with. It sounds to me that you may not have thought your dentistry career through before you started school and now you sound very miserable. Maybe i'm wrong here, but nowhere in any of your posts have you praised any aspect of dentistry. In fact you have gone out of your way to detour others from joining the profession. And by the way the advice of postponing entering school for a year to that individual is pure BS. They should bone up, make the decision and move on with ther life. If they wait to enter dental school for a year it will only cost them more money later, with rising tuition, and the year of practice they may have had before retirement. Just a bad idea.

I understand that you also want to take care of your children and their education as well. Very reasonable and honorable thing to do as a parent. I myself have a daughter and plan to do the same for her. However, just as you had to take on some debt for your education so should your children. Not necissarily for undergrad but for anything beyond yes. They become young adults and eventually have to take responsibility for themselves. So at this point i'm sure you should have enough saved for their education, time to start saving and spending some of that money on yourself and your retirement. Buy an new car for christs sake.

You and your husband sound very depressed and unhappy with your decision to become dentists. I can't quite understand it. Dentistry is no doubt like any other profession, tough and i'm sure back breaking (there are much worse careers). Dentistry is an honorable proffession one that you should be proud of. Not everyone can run out and accomplish what you have done. You sound very sincere in your posts and i'm very sorry if my reply sound harsh . It sound to me that you are very unhappy in your decision to become dentists or maybe that has passed since you ahve already been practicing for some 30 years or so. Maybe bitter is the right word. Bitter because you expected more. I don't know.

I am a non traditional student starting D-school this year. I will be turning 30 this year. I fully understand what I am taking on here. Well at least most aspects. I have done a lot of research, work and volunteering. I am not going in with high expectations. I am however going in with resonable expectations and I am sure that I can achieve my goals.

Oh, and your husband doesn't sound like hes doing to bad if he comes in does some hygiene and then goes off and plays golfs. If he is a simple guy then all men must be.

 

[Lesley]

Hi, I'm really an up person. I have to admit, our story wasn't easy to live or listen to. There's so much more, but we got through it, and I feel very good about what we've accomplished.

I think we live the way we do, older cars, is due to our complete aversion to debt after years of making payments for dental school loans, I mean the bank owned our souls, just for going to dental school, that's the way I looked at it and that's the way it felt to us, with more bank notes for the business loan and mortgage. When we took out the loan for the business the bank also took a lien against our home, so if we failed, we would lose our home too. No one prepares you for this in dental school, so the financial landscape came as quite a shock. Maybe, if they tell you this is the way it will be, it wouldn't come as such a shock or seem so frightening. I think 25-30 years ago, this was discussed even less. Now with the internet you know you are not alone, but for Scott and I, we didn't know anyone quite in our situation. I mean, most women in my neighborhood didn't even work at time.

We live very modestly now because I, especially, don't want any payments. Period. That is what makes me happy. We're not living like monks, but we live very well within our means. Before we sent our kids to college, I was adament, in state, state schools only. It ends up the oldest is going to a very pricey top university and the youngest will be going to an out of state, state school. I'm not rigid obviously! But, this is what also makes me happy. Knowing they are going to the right university for them, happy about it and doing very well academically and socially. You have children, you know how much you want to see them succeed and do well. This also makes me happy, it doesn't seem like a sacrifice, it just feels right. I know as with dental school, this obligation too will pass, and I will be able to get that new car, but it will only be because the old one won't pass inspection, it's stalling or the air conditioning doesn't work, must have air conditioning! It's just not a piority for me. I live a very happy and contented life. I garden, I golf, I paint. I sleep very well everynight and wake energized. I owe nothing to anybody. I am doing and in a place that makes me happy. It takes a lot of work and effort for anybody to get to this point. Very few do.

I can honestly say my family and I, were surprised by the direction dental school led me. I never even thought about joing military, how I would finance my education before dental school, or that if I worked and had children who was going to take care of the kids and how much would that cost. Very naive, I'm sure I am not alone, at 18-22, who thinks of all these things. Not me, not a lot of people. I was never enamored with owning my own business, but that was what we felt was right for our situation, given both of us could work. I came out of college, very naive and innocent. I grew up a lot in the four years of dental school, and I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but I grew in unexpected areas. I have done more than I ever expected to do. It's been a very full life.

And no, I am not taking out loans for my kids, cash only. I take it one semester at a time. Luckily, they did get some scholarships, and this year with two kids attending university, I am very grateful. It takes planning and patience, but it can be done. I have set my limits, we'll do four years for each of the kids at the school of their choice, period. I have spoken to my children the way I have spoken to you on this board, their whole life. It's why they are good kids, do very well at school, appreciate what we are doing for them and are very, very grateful that we can send them to college. I know what I will and won't do, I am clear and direct and I am nobodies doormat. Not even my children. (especially, not my husbands!!!) I don't feel depressed, quite the contrary. I just want you to know that to get to this point, it did take a lot of patience, planning, and a lot of payments. But, as I've said before some people are making lots and lots of payments, and some of those are the ones I see who are depressed and feeling pressured, now when they're older and should be seeing that light, and I don't mean freight train at the end of the tunnel. I am a good dentist, I care about my patients and staff. Nothing makes me happier than when a crown looks beautiful or that endo fill is right on the nose. It really makes my day. My husband's a geat guy, but like most guys, I don't think he's been as verbal and communicative about his feelings, and has some resentment. But I've noticed when he's on the golf course, life is very good for him. It never rains on the golf course.

Take things one day at a time, enjoy one day at a time, and pay off that debt one day at a time. Remember, I did not wait to start having a life until the debt was done, I started even while in dental school. We are all very different, we all make our own happiness. Find what makes you comfortable, and follow your own path. I am thinking of each and eveyone of you as you are starting your dental education or career. My post was for enlightment. Your post was very,very good. Best wishes.

I'm not quite sure here, but it sounds like you and your husband may have made some bad decisions. You must be living in the boondocks. I mean if two dentists married to each other can't make it in dentistry then there is something wrong. So tell us where are you practicing because i'll be sure to stay away from that area. You however, must know better than I because you have lived it. As far as dentistry being hard work, there is no doubt that it is, but I can think of many other jobs that are more phisically and mentally challenging that I want nothing to do with. It sounds to me that you may not have thought your dentistry career through before you started school and now you sound very miserable. Maybe i'm wrong here, but nowhere in any of your posts have you praised any aspect of dentistry. In fact you have gone out of your way to detour others from joining the profession. And by the way the advice of postponing entering school for a year to that individual is pure BS. They should bone up, make the decision and move on with ther life. If they wait to enter dental school for a year it will only cost them more money later, with rising tuition, and the year of practice they may have had before retirement. Just a bad idea.

I understand that you also want to take care of your children and their education as well. Very reasonable and honorable thing to do as a parent. I myself have a daughter and plan to do the same for her. However, just as you had to take on some debt for your education so should your children. Not necissarily for undergrad but for anything beyond yes. They become young adults and eventually have to take responsibility for themselves. So at this point i'm sure you should have enough saved for their education, time to start saving and spending some of that money on yourself and your retirement. Buy an new car for christs sake.

You and your husband sound very depressed and unhappy with your decision to become dentists. I can't quite understand it. Dentistry is no doubt like any other profession, tough and i'm sure back breaking (there are much worse careers). Dentistry is an honorable proffession one that you should be proud of. Not everyone can run out and accomplish what you have done. You sound very sincere in your posts and i'm very sorry if my reply sound harsh . It sound to me that you are very unhappy in your decision to become dentists or maybe that has passed since you ahve already been practicing for some 30 years or so. Maybe bitter is the right word. Bitter because you expected more. I don't know.

I am a non traditional student starting D-school this year. I will be turning 30 this year. I fully understand what I am taking on here. Well at least most aspects. I have done a lot of research, work and volunteering. I am not going in with high expectations. I am however going in with resonable expectations and I am sure that I can achieve my goals.

Oh, and your husband doesn't sound like hes doing to bad if he comes in does some hygiene and then goes off and plays golfs. If he is a simple guy then all men must be.

 

[Lesley]

Thank you.

..yeah you should definitely do some soul searching and decide if dentistry is really the profession for you....i think you should do what you think will make you happy doing......money should be the second thing to think about...unless you dont really want to do something.


Lesley- thanks for the reply..i guess there is just a lot of avenues that have to be researched before signing into something like the navy.

 

[Lesley]

Thank you.

IMO, this is a great thread.... it has really brought quite a bit of reality to the table, it's good (yet, slightly depressing I must agree) to see a thread like this, b/c it calms down this notion that most pre-dents seem to have about being super rich right out of school. Thanks Lesley for the insight.

 

[FamilyMD]

Thank you.

Lesley,

Your posts should not be only read by dental students but ALL health professional students. It is unique in many ways, first and foremost is the fact that you are a practicing dentists, not a student quoting somebodys' uncle's cousins' next door neighbor. Despite this fact, it is amusing that some posters still attack you, your credibility, your business sense, etc. They still want to believe the $300k a year job happens the day after they get their diploma. I, for one, find your posts to be MUST READS by all health care students.
Thank you for all the time you have put into these posts, and I will print them for my cousins.