Debt and Income

[Lesley]

Dear FamilyMD, Thanks. I think the some of the kids reading this thread have a negative reaction, because they feel vulnerable. I sure did! As I learned in the military, "Don't take it personal." I don't. I wanted to put something honest and real out there for them to consider, not just what their parents, friends and family think to be true. If this thread has challenged anyone's beliefs, it is not a bad thing. Dental school will not be easy, but to go there knowing dentistry is what they want to pursue, will make it rewarding. Dental school professors will challenge them a lot more, in different ways. Anyone who works as hard in their practice as did in dental school, will be successful. Good luck to everyone. Family MD, Thanks again for the support and your comments. I appreciate it. My brother is a ER physician and my sister a nurse. The practice of medicine is set up a little differently than dentistry. Very best wishes.

Lesley,

Your posts should not be only read by dental students but ALL health professional students. It is unique in many ways, first and foremost is the fact that you are a practicing dentists, not a student quoting somebodys' uncle's cousins' next door neighbor. Despite this fact, it is amusing that some posters still attack you, your credibility, your business sense, etc. They still want to believe the $300k a year job happens the day after they get their diploma. I, for one, find your posts to be MUST READS by all health care students.
Thank you for all the time you have put into these posts, and I will print them for my cousins.

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[gdunk]

FamilyMD - good post i agree completely.

 

[dentalguy]

FamilyMD - good post i agree completely.

military seems better and better.....i got the army and navy scholarships but I am having problems committing....any comments....this makes it sound like these loans are a pain in the a$$

 

[aggie-master]

btw, I just wanted to say that your sob story doesn't really sound that sad right now.

I'd love to be able to work only a half schedule and play golf every day when I'm in my 50s. I'm planning on still working 40 hours per week at that point in my life. Your husband must not be doing too bad to be able to enjoy that much free time and still have enough money to be active in an expensive sport.

 

[Lesley]

Dear Aggie, He's a very happy golfer! Ours is not a sob story, it's a real story, but evaluate it as you may. As many others have said on this board before, it's nice to have a working wife! You will have little debt Aggie. When you're fifty+ or much younger, you can make whatever decisions you like, they're your decisions to make and live with. Good luck in school!

btw, I just wanted to say that your sob story doesn't really sound that sad right now.

I'd love to be able to work only a half schedule and play golf every day when I'm in my 50s. I'm planning on still working 40 hours per week at that point in my life. Your husband must not be doing too bad to be able to enjoy that much free time and still have enough money to be active in an expensive sport.

 

[klfb80]

Lesley you are very sincere and that is what I am coming to realize is what i like about you. No sugar coating in your story. I don't feel like others are attacking you though as Family MD has said. People have different outlooks.

Reading your story it sounds like you may not have been prepared for a career in dentistry. i say this because it's in black and white in your posts. It sounds like it really who you were and the way you thought. You yourself said that you were very naive.

Like you said with the power of the internet today and the way the world is if you dont know what your getting into it's your own fault. I think SDN there are some really good posts. But also many bad posts. You really have to know that you can't rely on anything you read on here or atleast know that it is anothers opinion. Anything on here that talks about money is usually a bit taboo. This is because we are not all the same, we live in different places, work different jobs and there are many sucess/failure stories.

I think the main thing one needs to do is set there expectations at a reasonable level. Every dentist I know is very happy. I have never had a dentist detour me from the profession. In fact many of the dentists I know work for the government i.e VA and army. They are some of the happiest individuals I know and they are surely not in the upper echelon of dentistry when it comes to pay.

Lesley maybe your career in theNavy set you off on a bad start. Just kidding. The reason i say that is because I spent 8 years in the army and I was ready to get the hell out at the end.

 

[Lesley]

Dear klfb80, Thanks for the kind words. They are appreciated.

I do want to clear up one thing. While I am worried about commiting to the military given the current state of international affairs, I want you to know that the Navy was very good to me. When you come out of dental school, you are pretty wiped out mentally and physically with having gotten done the endless requirements, boards and everything else. The Navy cared if I was a good dentist and wanted to make sure I got the training and guidance I needed. I saw only one patient an hour when I began and never more than one every fourty-five minutes for the three years I was in. I was assigned an assistant from the start who was excellent. I even remember his name, Tearthur Drennon, if you're out there, "Thank you." After only seeing one patient in the am and one in the pm, even one patient an hour seemed like a lot. Tearthur would practically slap the right instrument in my hand to help me get going. Within the year, I was working on the commanders and captains teeth doing operative. It was a big boost. It felt rewarding. Even though I wasn't in an offical GP residency. I spent year doing only endo next to the X0, as he was endodontist, I did rotations through perio, OS and C and B, although in the military there is little need for that. Going through the military, gave me an confidence and skills to be a very good general practitioner. I do work in a blue collar area, so until we educated our patients and that took a decade at least, not doing much crown and bridge initially was not a hinderance.

I think you and many others have some life experience behind you, and my posts are not for you. But, I am sure there are many 21-22 year old women like me, especially now that 51% of dental students are females, that have been accepted to dental school who have only lived a college life, worked part time and studied for the DAT's that really don't understand about things that will effect them down the road. It is not to discourage them, but there is comfort in knowlege, and there is comfort in knowing you are not alone.

Also this 30 year school note is a different animal than we've seen before. Exactly what will mean to you, no one knows. So, just be careful. I've said it before, I've been in a similar boat as anyone who graduated with student loans, my story, not to be your story, is there for reading. I have spent a lot of time on this thread and must attend to other things. I hope you have discovered some useful knowlege, maybe even about yourself. Very best wishes.

Lesley you are very sincere and that is what I am coming to realize is what i like about you. No sugar coating in your story. I don't feel like others are attacking you though as Family MD has said. People have different outlooks.

Reading your story it sounds like you may not have been prepared for a career in dentistry. i say this because it's in black and white in your posts. It sounds like it really who you were and the way you thought. You yourself said that you were very naive.

Like you said with the power of the internet today and the way the world is if you dont know what your getting into it's your own fault. I think SDN there are some really good posts. But also many bad posts. You really have to know that you can't rely on anything you read on here or atleast know that it is anothers opinion. Anything on here that talks about money is usually a bit taboo. This is because we are not all the same, we live in different places, work different jobs and there are many sucess/failure stories.

I think the main thing one needs to do is set there expectations at a reasonable level. Every dentist I know is very happy. I have never had a dentist detour me from the profession. In fact many of the dentists I know work for the government i.e VA and army. They are some of the happiest individuals I know and they are surely not in the upper echelon of dentistry when it comes to pay.

Lesley maybe your career in theNavy set you off on a bad start. Just kidding. The reason i say that is because I spent 8 years in the army and I was ready to get the hell out at the end.

 

[scalpel2008]

granted i'm poor because i'm an OMS resident but all my friends who graduated dental school with me in 2002 are doing well. If the average general dentist income (according to the ADA) is 190,000 for pvt practice, how can this be a rough life, even if you have student loans. Unless one is well below average.

 

[checkamundo]

To get a better picture of what kind of income to expect and how to handle debt, you guys should check out dentaltown.com They have lots of practicing dentists with a lot of good advice regarding what it's like after graduating from dental school

 

[Hmmwhat]

Debt should never be considered in deciding what you want to do with your life. You only live once. So if doing what you want isn't important now then be careful because you will worry about not being happy later. Your life will be full of regrets.

I don't know...I come from a family where there are a lot of professionals, doctors, lawyers, and business types, all of them keep there money for themselves for the most part. My father is a dentist, my brother a successful engineer and my sister a lawyer and all owe some money because my father although he could easily of paid for their entire education and my dental education won't. My father paid for his own education as did my aunt and uncles. I was raised to be independent, to pay my own way, unfortunately that means for school as well. In all honesty I can't complain because my parents raised me to challenge myself and to go after what makes me happy and I know that I accomplished my goals. I will end up owing close to 300 k when I finish, this includes undergrad, car, and credit cards. This debt will take as little as 15 years to pay to 30 years to pay. In all honesty though it was and will be worth every penny.

I bought a car, a motorcycle, three back pack trips through Europe, through the U.S. and South America with my undergrad loans, these experiences were my true education and the factors that led me to Dentistry. I saw through my own eyes the excitement and sorrows of this world and in all honesty I will have paid twice for these adventures and learning experiences, but because I did them at a younger age I grew twice as much as if I did them later in life. These experiences have left me with out doubt in my decision for Dentistry and thus owing 300 k which will end up costing me more around 500 k after paid interest really doesn't bother me. Experience compounds the same as investments!

Debt must remain manageable though, which in Dentistry this amount is very manageable. Loving your profession will allow you to love your life and the debt will not seem so bad when you get to wake up every morning and go to a practice that you built and manage, to treat your patients, to see the fruits of your investment pay off by helping those that weren't as born as fortunate as yourself. Debt in a way can remind you that just because you are part of a limited and great profession doesn't mean you are better then others and that you should always give back to those that helped you and those that just need help. So live life now and stop worrying so much because you will either not be able to do it so do not worry because there was nothing you could of done differently or you will be able to do it and so don't worry because you did it.

Sorry for the long post but I get carried away on this topic.

 

[Joeybag]

I know this thread is super depressing but any help advice would be much appreciated. I was one of those, oh I'll make plenty to pay off my debt and still live comfortably right out of school and cush in 5-10 yrs following. I also had the fortune of having my undergrad completely payed for. Though as tuition bills are finally due, the reality of this financial process is setting in. Anyhow, I'm expecting to graduate in debt somewhere in the ballpark of roughly 200,000 depending on how good of a mood my familia is in. Anyway don't bash me for talking about money, I do like dentistry and working with people from all walks of life, but the way I see it everything in moderation, including the ratio of work and time we'll be putting in to what we receive whether it be gratitude or dolla bills. Another thing about this debt is making me question specializing and the further debt that would ensue, though I intend to do whatever I find most enjoyable, I almost feel as if debt impacts that decision (hopefully that will be an option for me as well. Bottom line is if I go straight into an associate position hopefully i could make somewere in the area of 100-120 (somewhere on the SE/midatlantic )after taxes 60-80? This brings up the next question, paying back over 20 years i think thats about 2000 a month. Now I know this is all theoretical but that leaves me w/ 36 k a year to live on. Now thats plenty seeing how I don't have any shopping/drug addictions and/or kids at least not any time soon but honestly is 4 years of hard work worth it for that. Hopefully there is room for improvement, but how soon? I can get by on not much money but believe me I made 1700/month after taxes/insurance doing research and even in a cheap area in the country that isnt too much. So basically what do you all suggest? Extending the loan? Call that guy w/ the question mark suit? Please pardon the length of this post, I think I'm probably mainly anxious about the ass kicking school is going to hand us and looking for a way to vent. Please send feedback/PM'S and or food stamps.

 

[Lesley]

I know this thread is super depressing but any help advice would be much appreciated. I was one of those, oh I'll make plenty to pay off my debt and still live comfortably right out of school and cush in 5-10 yrs following. I also had the fortune of having my undergrad completely payed for. Though as tuition bills are finally due, the reality of this financial process is setting in. Anyhow, I'm expecting to graduate in debt somewhere in the ballpark of roughly 200,000 depending on how good of a mood my familia is in. Anyway don't bash me for talking about money, I do like dentistry and working with people from all walks of life, but the way I see it everything in moderation, including the ratio of work and time we'll be putting in to what we receive whether it be gratitude or dolla bills. Another thing about this debt is making me question specializing and the further debt that would ensue, though I intend to do whatever I find most enjoyable, I almost feel as if debt impacts that decision (hopefully that will be an option for me as well. Bottom line is if I go straight into an associate position hopefully i could make somewere in the area of 100-120 (somewhere on the SE/midatlantic )after taxes 60-80? This brings up the next question, paying back over 20 years i think thats about 2000 a month. Now I know this is all theoretical but that leaves me w/ 36 k a year to live on. Now thats plenty seeing how I don't have any shopping/drug addictions and/or kids at least not any time soon but honestly is 4 years of hard work worth it for that. Hopefully there is room for improvement, but how soon? I can get by on not much money but believe me I made 1700/month after taxes/insurance doing research and even in a cheap area in the country that isnt too much. So basically what do you all suggest? Extending the loan? Call that guy w/ the question mark suit? Please pardon the length of this post, I think I'm probably mainly anxious about the ass kicking school is going to hand us and looking for a way to vent. Please send feedback/PM'S and or food stamps.

Hi Joeybag,

It's hard to look at dentistry financially from your vantage point, soon to be out of school and contemplating paying off the debt, and really know if it was worth it or not. Dental school is closer to five years of hard work if you include the summers. I had the same concerns as you at your point in time, so I'll address them from a different perspective.

I am really for paying off debt as soon as possible. That's the way I was raised. But, I also think you need to live, a little, and you need to start saving for retirement, asap. Compounding is a beautiful thing, when it's in your favor. Many full time jobs available to associate dentists offer $110,000-120,000 to start and many offer 401K plans. I think it's wise to participate to the max. Minimally, you should contribute enough to fully qualify for the company's match. Any money you put in your 401K will not be taxable until you start to withdraw. So, you'll be saving for retirement in the future and decreasing your taxes in the present. Your income for a single will be over $60,000, so you will, unfortunately, not be eligible for a Roth.

As for specializing, I applied and was accepted to a prosthetics residency a few years after I graduated, a couple of years after finishing my Navy commitment. I really felt I could be doing more than just general dentistry and wanted more knowledge. I even took the GRE's, did well, and could have gone the MS/pros specialty route. It was offered to me to help keep the cost down. It would have required me to do research and write a thesis. But for me, my family, our business and our financial position, it would not have been a good move. Looking back on it now, I turned 50 recently, I like the choices I have made. Really, no regrets. If you really want to specialize, it is not getting any cheaper, and if you really feel it would make you happier in the long run, go for it. However, there are many good courses available to you without enrolling in a graduate program that will make you a comfortable and competent dentist in almost any area that interests you. Specializing, however, is nice, if it's what you want and that works for you.

BTW, $200,000 debt is not over the top these days, but I know how arduous it feels when you are in repayment. Because my husband and I didn't consolidate our loans, I wrote almost a dozen checks a month for the both of us, Robert Wood Johnson, HEAL, Guaranteed Student Loan, Health Professions Scholarship Loan, and so many more.....

If you should take a longer repayment schedule, I think there are plans that will allow you to repay the loan earlier with out penalty, so at least the choice would be yours. If increasing your repayment schedule allows you the flexibility to save for retirement, a home, and allows you piece of mind maybe it is wise. Run the numbers, check and double check your options, and think about what would make you happy and comfortable. Talk to an accountant. In the end, your repayment plan should be something you are comfortable with, not what someone else wants for you. After all, you are the one writing the check. Good Luck, Lesley

 

[Lesley]

(This brings up the next question, paying back over 20 years i think thats about 2000 a month.)


On the FinAid calculator, assuming an average interest rate of 6.8%, assuming you consolidated your loans before July 1st, 2006 to 4.7% and your private loan rates are higher, a $200,000 loan, 20 years payback, at 6.8 % is more in range of $1,500, the 30 year payback would be about $1,300. Not much different, but a lot lower than $2,000/month for 20 years.

http://www.finaid.com

 

[jr8047]

Hi, One of my Brother in Law's is an accountant, CPA, and has his own firm. He has a lot of medical and dental accounts and dental. He doesn't have a lot of positive comments in general about his dental accounts. He graduated from college with no debt and started a very sucessful business. My other brother in law is a dentist, too. He sold his practice about 8 years ago. Couldn't make a living, not even $70,000/yr., and is doing better working for other people. He couldn't handle the insurance companies and their plans. Luckily, he sold the building and then sold the practice piece meal, records, equipment. I've met dentists, even in their late 50's, who got a very inexpensive college and dental education and have barely helped their children with their educations. This, I too, don't understand. My B-I-L the dentist, allowed each kid $16,000 total for four years of college, granted that was a few years ago, but even then $4,000/year did not go far, anything over that amount, they had to borrow. Look, we're not doing badly we've paid off the debt and are putting our kids through undergrad. We were always able to split our schedule when the kids were little, so we put them in day care as little as possible. I don't know if we could have done it if we weren't both working and only collecting enough to cover one household. Maybe we could have just done as well, being two teachers having summers off, no school debt and would be both retiring now with a good pension a piece and health care for life. Before I was finished my military duty, we bought a business, a home and school loans, the debt totaled a half a million dollars. The average four bedroom home in our area was about $80,000-100,000 at the time. We owed more than 5 homes. Five mortgages for anyone is a lot, but that's just my opinion. As my father often said to me, how do you sleep at night? You do, because you're so exhausted taking care of patients, the business and the kids, and you get through it. I hope to hear you've got your first million in the bank in a few years, but maybe it won't be quite so easy. Good luck.

you are incredibly negative!! Really, you should seek out a counselor....sorry but it is just the way I see it.

 

[Lesley]

you are incredibly negative!! Really, you should seek out a counselor....sorry but it is just the way I see it.

You do not need to apologize. It was very tough in the beginning. If you heard from my husband, he would make me look absolutely optimistic! I re- read the post and that's exactly what it was like. No sugar coating, sorry.

 

[Da Bomb]

Having a house, cars, enough money to put your children through college, all on less than a five day work week (per parent) is much better than doing ok. Lesley, you are doing very very well. You may not be "wealthy" but in my book any family that can pay for their childrens college education qualifies as well off. Most students pay there own way through undergrad and beyond.

 

[Lesley]

Having a house, cars, enough money to put your children through college, all on less than a five day work week (per parent) is much better than doing ok. Lesley, you are doing very very well. You may not be "wealthy" but in my book any family that can pay for their childrens college education qualifies as well off. Most students pay there own way through undergrad and beyond.

Yes, you get it. Very well put.


Dentistry is not a sprint.


Like that famous quote, "Alls well that ends well," that's our story.

 

[vasco]

Lesley:

I've really enjoyed your posts. I thank you for your sincerity and the fact that you have handled all comments directed at you with class. I have a tax question for you. I understand that as a dentist I will have to pay both federal and state income taxes...but I don't understand how I will be paying for social security and medicade. As a dentist do you have to pay self employment tax? Or are you incorporated and pay your self as an employee and then you only have to pay for half of the self employment tax? I've been trying to figure this out so any help would be appreciated. Tax seems to be a killer because if you have 35% federal taxes 8% state taxes and then 15.3% self employement tax....that adds up to be alot of taxes.

 

[hockeydentist]

Lesley:

I've really enjoyed your posts. I thank you for your sincerity and the fact that you have handled all comments directed at you with class. I have a tax question for you. I understand that as a dentist I will have to pay both federal and state income taxes...but I don't understand how I will be paying for social security and medicade. As a dentist do you have to pay self employment tax? Or are you incorporated and pay your self as an employee and then you only have to pay for half of the self employment tax? I've been trying to figure this out so any help would be appreciated. Tax seems to be a killer because if you have 35% federal taxes 8% state taxes and then 15.3% self employement tax....that adds up to be alot of taxes.

So please explain this in more detail..

 

[Lesley]

Lesley:

I've really enjoyed your posts. I thank you for your sincerity and the fact that you have handled all comments directed at you with class. I have a tax question for you. I understand that as a dentist I will have to pay both federal and state income taxes...but I don't understand how I will be paying for social security and medicade. As a dentist do you have to pay self employment tax? Or are you incorporated and pay your self as an employee and then you only have to pay for half of the self employment tax? I've been trying to figure this out so any help would be appreciated. Tax seems to be a killer because if you have 35% federal taxes 8% state taxes and then 15.3% self employement tax....that adds up to be alot of taxes.

Hi, Thanks. It's good to know I didn't irritate everyone. I really am hoping everyone does well, and I know everyone can. We wouldn't have worked our tails off in the beginning, if we weren't so sure that it would be worth it, and it was.

The tax man for our office is my husband. I handle front desk protocol, billing, medical insurance for us and our staff and the retirement plans, so I'll have to wait till he gets home to better answer your questions. He did want to get on the board a few times, he's protective, it's one of the things I love about him, but I didn't think he would have said anything that anybody needed to hear, so I told him no.

But as far as taxes this is what I do know. My husband always complains we pay too much! I do think we pay self employment taxes as we have a limited liability partnership. We discussed incorporating as it has it's benefits, but it would have been more expensive. Our accountant, my B-I-L, didn't seem to feel it would offer us much extra protection or would greatly benefit us.

We opened a simple IRA in 1997, as soon as it was offered. This is an inexpensive plan to start and allows us to contribute a good portion of our income and keep it non-taxable, at least for now!, and contribute some $$ for our staff. We've always done a 3% match. It is a good staff incentive. I wish it was available sooner.

My husband is always grumbling about the taxes. When we first started the practice and started paying the quarterlies, my husband was in such a mess that he was borrowing to pay them. He just couldn't seem to keep things straight. It's now easier because, we take home a paycheck, it varies, and I pay the quarterlies myself with what we've earned. I found it was easier that way, and I have piece of mind that they have been paid. I sleep much better that way!

He's not the only one that has trouble with this. I know many dentists, even specialists, who are behind on their taxes as a routine. We went to dinner with an orthodontist and his wife about 2 years ago. His wife worked the front desk and thought the deposits looked good and bought nice furniture for their new home. Meanwhile, he was behind on his taxes asked for extentions in June and again in August and on top of that he was supposed to have contributed by April 15th to his staff's retirement fund and hadn't done that either.

It takes a lot of discipline to stay on top of it. I know I haven't asked your questions too well. When my husband gets home, I'll have him look over your post and maybe, if he's willing to be a good boy, I'll let him answer.

Take care, Lesley

 

[vasco]

So you and your husband both pay the full 15% self employment tax. Kick in the pants. Thanks for the response. I plan on doing the S IRA as well. It sound like the best way to go for retirment planning purposes.

 

[WVUdental]

Dont worry about the debt. 30 grand a year over 10 years. After you take that out of your salary, you will still be ahead of most bachelor degree grad salaries.

Bachelor degree salary usually start 40-60. 4-5 % increase a year. After four years, they will make 50-70 maybe. I doubt they will get a promo so early in the game.

So as long as you make 100 k, you are even.

I made it simple for you.

I don't know of any BS degrees that start out between 40 - 70. Could you please enlighten us!

Veterinarians (grad school) only start out around $55,000.

 

[scalpel2008]

maybe it's just me but why does it seem like whenever people talk about $$$ on here, they post whatever they find after the squat and bear down (except you, lesley. you seem to do your homework)

 

[WVUdental]

maybe it's just me but why does it seem like whenever people talk about $$$ on here, they post whatever they find after the squat and bear down (except you, lesley. you seem to do your homework)

It sucks to be you.

Actually, $55k is good money for a VET most don't get paid that well.

Bet they wish they went to dental school instead!

 

[scalpel2008]

It sucks to be you.

Actually, $55k is good money for a VET most don't get paid that well.

Bet they wish they went to dental school instead!

actually I was referring to your figures on average BS salaries. Not unusual at all for BS degree holders to start out at 60K+, higher depending on institution(engineering, finance, computer science, etc).

 

[WVUdental]

actually I was referring to your figures on average BS salaries. Not unusual at all for BS degree holders to start out at 60K+, higher depending on institution(engineering, finance, computer science, etc).

maYBE IN NEW YORK ONLY.

Quit smoking crack and posting on SDN.

Just provide me some solid proof because I think your in la la land..

Heres some figures I found for entry level BS degrees by state.





www.payscale.com

Salary By State
For All People in All Surveys
MedianRangeAverage

Bachelor of Science (BS)

Narrow in by: Company Type, Size, City, Experience, Skills, Gender, Degrees, More...
California (12978790) 28500

Texas (8369411) 23940

New York (7543848) 28670

Florida (6312052) 23000

Illinois (5146463) 26360

Pennsylvania (5071535) 25260

Ohio (4995288) 25730

Michigan (3853272) 27490

 

[scalpel2008]

Bachelor's degree graduates in 2004-2005 from the University of Michigan College of Engineering received average annual starting salary offers in the following engineering disciplines:

Aerospace: $53,471
Chemical: $52,014
Computer: $57,875
Electrical: $54,922
Industrial and operations: $49,874
Mechanical: $52,165

http://money.cnn.com/2005/04/15/pf/college/starting_salaries/index.htm

plenty of engineering jobs in 50K+ starting on average.

To generalize all Bachelors of Science doesn't make sense. Obviously if you got a B.S. with a major in Posting BS on SDN, you won't make 50K (well, maybe you would) have a goodnight.

 

[sylvan]

Hi all,

I have a question for you about my life dilemma. I am not a dentist, I was 20 something years ago in different country. In US i have my assistant licensure and worked as such for 10 years. Now i have an opportunity to go to a dental hygiene program at NYU. It is expensive ( 80 grand in tuition for 2 years) Is it worth it considering that i am 48 now and have 10 to 12 years of practicing after school . ..Or just keep going as an assistant ( top pay in our state 20-22 per our) ?

Any input is highly appreciated. Thanks

 

[mahya]

I agree,

I am currently interning in a biomedical company and I got a job offer for 55,000K with masters in biomedical engineering. It might be higher depending on the company you might start to work like medtronic or etc. but in average engineering BS or MS starts around 60K and it does not increase in years..you have to work your a.. off to get a raise and you would still be around 70-80 unless you are a manager or CEO, it is then that your salary might increase to around 90-100K (before taxes). I know lots of older guys in the company I intern that they have been here for a long time (5 yrs and their salaries are around 80 K).

Compare this to dentistry, when you graduate, it is understandable that you might not start off high but as an associate you can start around 100-120k depending on the location, and you will have lots of oppurtunities to increase your income (by opening your own practice or etc)..Potential is there..never forget that dentistry needs a business mind to be successful. Nothing in this world is easy to achieve..you have to work hard to reach your goal..so do not give up!

Bachelor's degree graduates in 2004-2005 from the University of Michigan College of Engineering received average annual starting salary offers in the following engineering disciplines:

Aerospace: $53,471
Chemical: $52,014
Computer: $57,875
Electrical: $54,922
Industrial and operations: $49,874
Mechanical: $52,165

http://money.cnn.com/2005/04/15/pf/college/starting_salaries/index.htm

plenty of engineering jobs in 50K+ starting on average.

To generalize all Bachelors of Science doesn't make sense. Obviously if you got a B.S. with a major in Posting BS on SDN, you won't make 50K (well, maybe you would) have a goodnight.

 

[WVUdental]

Bachelor's degree graduates in 2004-2005 from the University of Michigan College of Engineering received average annual starting salary offers in the following engineering disciplines:

Aerospace: $53,471 Industrial and operations: $49,874
Chemical: $52,014
Computer: $57,875
Electrical: $54,922

Mechanical: $52,165

http://money.cnn.com/2005/04/15/pf/college/starting_salaries/index.htm

plenty of engineering jobs in 50K+ starting on average.

To generalize all Bachelors of Science doesn't make sense. Obviously if you got a B.S. with a major in Posting BS on SDN, you won't make 50K (well, maybe you would) have a goodnight.

Ok, tell me other BS degrees which start out in the 50's other than ENGINEERING because that field really sucks also they earn it. Those guys work 12 hours a day and in school have to take several calculus courses, they can have it IMO.

 

[WVUdental]

Hi all,

I have a question for you about my life dilemma. I am not a dentist, I was 20 something years ago in different country. In US i have my assistant licensure and worked as such for 10 years. Now i have an opportunity to go to a dental hygiene program at NYU. It is expensive ( 80 grand in tuition for 2 years) Is it worth it considering that i am 48 now and have 10 to 12 years of practicing after school . ..Or just keep going as an assistant ( top pay in our state 20-22 per our) ?

Any input is highly appreciated. Thanks

No it is not worth it. It will take you 10 years to recover your money. Also, dental hygenists work their asses off and most cannot even find full-time employment.

For example, currently while you are sitting on your butt watching the dentist work while the hygenist is in the other room busting ass because he/she has a full schedule.

not to mention most get treated like dirt if their appointments are cancelled and they have idle time.

No way in hell would I ever go to hygiene school, ever!

 

[HulkHogan]

This is a great thread. Thank you very much for sharing your story Lesley.

TheHulk

 

[JamieMac]

Question for everyone here. I have a friend who says that I should get loans for dental school and save that money for a future practice, I disagree though. Mel

I'm in pretty much the same situation (if I choose dent over med), and am planning to pay for my tuition up front. I don't believe that your interest on student loans is 100% deductible...the interest on your future dental practice will be (if structured properly) since it can be paid for with pre-tax dollars. Good luck.

 

[Lesley]

This is a great thread. Thank you very much for sharing your story Lesley.

TheHulk

Thanks. Best wishes, Lesley

 

[WVUdental]

I'm in pretty much the same situation (if I choose dent over med), and am planning to pay for my tuition up front. I don't believe that your interest on student loans is 100% deductible...the interest on your future dental practice will be (if structured properly) since it can be paid for with pre-tax dollars. Good luck.

so many people are worried about loans.

just take 200k in loans and pay them off later when your making $300k a year.


no big deal.

 

[JamieMac]

so many people are worried about loans.

just take 200k in loans and pay them off later when your making $300k a year.


no big deal.

I respectfully disagree (that it is "no big deal"), but with a sound plan it is definitely manageable. Given that debt and bankruptcies are at an all time high in the US, people need to be able to plan for the debt and effectively manage it. Docs and dentists are no exception since the only way that many can get through school is to acquire a substantial amount of debt. Those that are reckless about acquiring debt and living large while in school will pay a hefty price compared to their fellow classmates that devise a sound plan. I am sure they will still be able to handle the debt load, but it is all about TVM (time value of money)…interest compounds at an alarming rate on large loan amounts.

On another note, I know a few dentists that do quite well, but based on much of what I read here, I’m not sure that $300,K is that easy.

 

[WVUdental]

I respectfully disagree (that it is "no big deal"), but with a sound plan it is definitely manageable. Given that debt and bankruptcies are at an all time high in the US, people need to be able to plan for the debt and effectively manage it. Docs and dentists are no exception since the only way that many can get through school is to acquire a substantial amount of debt. Those that are reckless about acquiring debt and living large while in school will pay a hefty price compared to their fellow classmates that devise a sound plan. I am sure they will still be able to handle the debt load, but it is all about TVM (time value of money)…interest compounds at an alarming rate on large loan amounts.

On another note, I know a few dentists that do quite well, but based on much of what I read here, I’m not sure that $300,K is that easy.

no your right, it will be several years before you make 300k.

However, even if you have 200k debt, thats less than a couple of thousand a month payment and you should be making at least 100k a year. thats nearly 10k a month.


so you will have around 7 or 6k left a month to live on.


What the hell is so hard about that???

Get all the loans you want, its NO BIG DEAL.

 

[FamilyMD]

no your right, it will be several years before you make 300k.

However, even if you have 200k debt, thats less than a couple of thousand a month payment and you should be making at least 100k a year. thats nearly 10k a month.


so you will have around 7 or 6k left a month to live on.


What the hell is so hard about that???

Get all the loans you want, its NO BIG DEAL.

As an MBA, your advice chills me to the bones. This spend today, worry later mentality I assure you will kill you financially. Your post exposes your ignorance to financial reality. You say if you make $100k a year "thats nearly 10k a month". How convenient for you to forget taxes of 29%, health insurance, 401k, local, state taxes. After all that is taken out you will be LUCKY to see $4k in real income monthly. As I've stated before, I have 2 relatives that are dentists and NEITHER makes $300k (1 is an associate 5 years out making $140k, and my S-I-L is a solo dentist making $240k). Reach for the stars! But please be realistic or at least don't mislead others more vulnearble people reading these threads.

 

[WVUdental]

As an MBA, your advice chills me to the bones. This spend today, worry later mentality I assure you will kill you financially. Your post exposes your ignorance to financial reality. You say if you make $100k a year "thats nearly 10k a month". How convenient for you to forget taxes of 29%, health insurance, 401k, local, state taxes. After all that is taken out you will be LUCKY to see $4k in real income monthly. As I've stated before, I have 2 relatives that are dentists and NEITHER makes $300k (1 is an associate 5 years out making $140k, and my S-I-L is a solo dentist making $240k). Reach for the stars! But please be realistic or at least don't mislead others more vulnearble people reading these threads.

Actually, as an MBA you should at least know that a salary of $72,000 nets $2200 a check, thats $4400 a month after taxes.

So please dont show your ignorance.

If your going to try to show me up then do the math correctly, thats all I ask!

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

ehh, deleted my post, pointless arguement.

You make as much as you want in life. Its all how you apply yourself and knowledge.

 

[FamilyMD]

Actually, as an MBA you should at least know that a salary of $72,000 nets $2200 a check, thats $4400 a month after taxes.

So please dont show your ignorance.

If your going to try to show me up then do the math correctly, thats all I ask!

I don't need to "show you up" as you are of no significance to me, let's get that straight. My concern is gullible younger readers who agree with your "Debt is no big deal" mantra. You basically stated the same I did genius, which is you will see about $4000 in real income monthly from a $100k salary. Now Mr. Big shot, take out a very modest $1400 for mortgage, $500 for food, $200 for gas, $500 for health insurance, $500 for phone, electric, gas, water, going out, clothes, misc. and you are left with a whopping $900 A MONTH. You think this is enough to pay off a $200k student debt???? Keep in mind, my numbers are conservative, a lot of people probably will spend even more than what I outlined.

I'm not here to bash you but if you think you will get a $300k job the day they hand you your diploma, I wanna smoke what your're smoking.

 

[armorshell]

words

To WVUdude: pwnt

To everyone else: My that's a depressing breakdown. Looks like it's roommates or a wife for me

 

[FamilyMD]

To WVUdude: pwnt

To everyone else: My that's a depressing breakdown. Looks like it's roommates or a wife for me

Repeat this 3 times: getting a wife will not save me money, getting a wife will not save me money, getting a wife will not save me money,
Ask me how I know

 

[armorshell]

Repeat this 3 times: getting a wife will not save me money, getting a wife will not save me money, getting a wife will not save me money,
Ask me how I know

I guess I didn't think that one through

 

[WVUdental]

I don't need to "show you up" as you are of no significance to me, let's get that straight. My concern is gullible younger readers who agree with your "Debt is no big deal" mantra. You basically stated the same I did genius, which is you will see about $4000 in real income monthly from a $100k salary. Now Mr. Big shot, take out a very modest $1400 for mortgage, $500 for food, $200 for gas, $500 for health insurance, $500 for phone, electric, gas, water, going out, clothes, misc. and you are left with a whopping $900 A MONTH. You think this is enough to pay off a $200k student debt???? Keep in mind, my numbers are conservative, a lot of people probably will spend even more than what I outlined.

I'm not here to bash you but if you think you will get a $300k job the day they hand you your diploma, I wanna smoke what your're smoking.

What makes you think you will buy a home with a $1,400 monthly mortgage after school.

I would think someone with an MBA would be smarter than that.

Conservative numbers? Crap.

 

[WVUdental]

Repeat this 3 times: getting a wife will not save me money, getting a wife will not save me money, getting a wife will not save me money,
Ask me how I know

No get a wife thats not a deadbeat that will work and it will help tremendously.

Don't go get married to some woman wanting a free ride, that won't help.

 

[FamilyMD]

What makes you think you will buy a home with a $1,400 monthly mortgage after school.

I would think someone with an MBA would be smarter than that.

Conservative numbers? Crap.

Listen you little P.O.S., you are still in fairytale land (AKA school). Graduate, get that job, then come back and talk to me when reality smacks you upside your stupid head. I love students like you who attack any poster (despite the fact that we are out in the real world) who post anything that goes against the fantasies you have in your head. I will waste no more time on you **** stain.

 

[apaul]

Listen you little P.O.S., you are still in fairytale land (AKA school). Graduate, get that job, then come back and talk to me when reality smacks you upside your stupid head. I love students like you who attack any poster (despite the fact that we are out in the real world) who post anything that goes against the fantasies you have in your head. I will waste no more time on you **** stain.

so youre a doctor in the real world who has nothing better to do than talk smack on a message board for dental students? sweet reality bro

 

[aggie-master]

I have to agree with FamilyMD on this one. I know too many people that didn't think about the future when they were maxing out student loans and regret it now. This applies to anyone whether they are dentists or not.

If you go to an expensive school and max out your loans and wind up in 250K of debt instead of going to a cheaper school and living like a poor man to end up with 100K in debt, you're going to regret it down the road. I don't care if you end up making 200K per year. You're still going to be pissed when you write that large check every month.

 

[johntara04]

If you work 240 days a year (48 weeks, 5 days a week. That gives you one month off a year), you should be making well over $100,000 a year as a dentist. Let's pretend that all you do is drill and fill. Just cavaties all day long. The only supplies you buy are for filling cavaties. That is all you do, you refer everything else out. You have one assistant, one front desk person, and one hygienist. That's all the employees you have. You are a small, small office. Your hygienist sees 5 patients a day. Let's say she sees 1 SRP and 4 Prophies and x-rays on 2 of the 4 patients. You see 10 patients a day, all with 1 filling. So you produce each day:

1 SRP: $150 a quad = $600
4 Prophies: $100 x 4 = $400
2 sets of x-rays: $50 x 2 = $100
8 fillings = $100 x 10 = $1000
Your office production = $2,100 a day, (240 x $2,100) $504,000 a year

Your overhead will be very, very small with three employees and two chairs. They say the average dental office is around 65% so we will go with that number, even though with only three employees (let's say you give them no benefits, a lot of practices don't) your overhead would only be about 45-50%. So, after you drill and fill all day long, you take home around 35% of what you produced. Let's say for arguments sake you only take home 25%. So, you take home at the end of the year around $126,000.

Also, if this was your practice, I would suggest you just fire your hygienist, train your assistant and fd person in both jobs and only have 2 employees and put the $50,000 you would have paid the hygienist back into your pocket and see their patients.

Moral of the story: If you can't make $100,000 a year in dentistry then you are a mouth-breathing knuckle dragger. That is reality.