Debt to earning for dental degree not worth it. Check twice, apply (dont)

[notchoobiz]

Some in-state dental school tuitions are fair for the average dentist's earnings of $120k. The rest of the private/public d-schools with $300-500k pre-interest tuition is a straight up robbery. Unless youre some child of a baller conceived in a 200 ft yacht, it doesnt make sense to become a dentist. If you were a child of some multimillionaire, why would you even want to become a dentist?

If youre an average Joe/Jane DMD/DDS, you'll most likely work at some poorly managed and operated corporate dental office for $120-$150k pay under some slave contract. DSOs are just machines owned by VCs and playing the numbers game; youre their workhorse pawn.

If you think youre some "connected" bro lined up to work at your daddy's dentist friends clinic, know that there's an endless number of shady private clinic owners skipping associate pays, over treating to make up for sht insurance pay, and fuking over quitting associates.

If things go well for you, you'll be an owner of a family clinic in some saturated suburb, struggling to scrape anything from the predatory "nonprofit" insurance companies.

Remember that you still have $300-700K (interest included) debt and tied to a garbage DMD/DDS job. Your license is getting abused by your DSO "clinic manager" (some washed up used car sales manager) with no managerial skills except for the two business leadership books he's read for business school requirements. (synergy and servant leadership bruhhhhhh)

You can pretend that dentistry is still 1965 with your name, DMD/DDS engraved in front of a medical complex building or accept that youll be a corporate "licensed" salaryman with zero autonomy. Its perfect if you're fine with paying off debt til 70, obeying orders from some idiot and becoming a corporate workhorse with blinders on. If you have any sense of entrepreneurship or want autonomy, run away from this **** smeared occupation.

in before the..."dude its still good if you join the military" or "work in a town of 8,000 in middle of nowhere dishing out 20 insurance dentures a day."
Lets be real, its garbage. Golden days are far behind us. If you dont believe it, take charge and ask around.

Debt to income ratio for some comparable professional occupations
(low good, high bad)
Nurse practitioner: 0.5
Physician: 0.98
Physicians assistant: 1.00
Lawyer: 1.19
pharmacist: 1.32
Veterinarian: 1.65
general dentist: 1.88

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[PerioDont]

Yep. 3-500k sucks. Dental school is the single most expensive graduate educational program.

IMO the best way this profession is worth it is if you become an owner ASAP.

I have seen endless stories of associated getting screwed. No burs, no assistants, no patients, not getting paid, etc. You graduate from dental school and think life is good but can get screwed in so many more ways. It's absolutely horrible. DSOs are the same.

High student loans and insurances have made this profession a questionable investment for anything above 300k imo.

 

[doc toothache]

Bad day at the office?

 

[notchoobiz]

Bad day at the office?

Nope, just sharing some dark realities of dentistry to pre-dents.

 

[Bigjt1420]

Some in-state dental school tuitions are fair for the average dentist's earnings of $120k. The rest of the private/public d-schools with $300-500k pre-interest tuition is a straight up robbery. Unless youre some child of a baller conceived in a 200 ft yacht, it doesnt make sense to become a dentist. If you were a child of some multimillionaire, why would you even want to become a dentist?

If youre an average Joe/Jane DMD/DDS, you'll most likely work at some poorly managed and operated corporate dental office for $120-$150k pay under some slave contract. DSOs are just machines owned by VCs and playing the numbers game; youre their workhorse pawn.

If you think youre some "connected" bro lined up to work at your daddy's dentist friends clinic, know that there's an endless number of shady private clinic owners skipping associate pays, over treating to make up for sht insurance pay, and fuking over quitting associates.

If things go well for you, you'll be an owner of a family clinic in some saturated suburb, struggling to scrape anything from the predatory "nonprofit" insurance companies.

Remember that you still have $300-700K (interest included) debt and tied to a garbage DMD/DDS job. Your license is getting abused by your DSO "clinic manager" (some washed up used car sales manager) with no managerial skills except for the two business leadership books he's read for business school requirements. (synergy and servant leadership bruhhhhhh)

You can pretend that dentistry is still 1965 with your name, DMD/DDS engraved in front of a medical complex building or accept that youll be a corporate "licensed" salaryman with zero autonomy. Its perfect if you're fine with paying off debt til 70, obeying orders from some idiot and becoming a corporate workhorse with blinders on. If you have any sense of entrepreneurship or want autonomy, run away from this **** smeared occupation.

in before the..."dude its still good if you join the military" or "work in a town of 8,000 in middle of nowhere dishing out 20 insurance dentures a day."
Lets be real, its garbage. Golden days are far behind us. If you dont believe it, take charge and ask around.

Debt to income ratio for some comparable professional occupations
(low good, high bad)
Nurse practitioner: 0.5
Physician: 0.98
Physicians assistant: 1.00
Lawyer: 1.19
pharmacist: 1.32
Veterinarian: 1.65
general dentist: 1.88

Now tell us how you really feel, lol

 

[SkinnyT]

The way I like to think of it is whatever profession you go into as you mentioned above, you'll have some debt, some less than others. But some professions have a better work/life balance, and the debt might just be worth it in dentistry. Just pay the minimum using the government's repay program, and use the money towards actually living life and building a family. At the end there is a tax bomb though, so beware and plan for it (ill probably post pone that too ) Thing is I'd rather live my 30s,40s,50s paying the minimum and enjoying life with my family, than using all my years to pay some loan that seems like its never going to end. Our lives go by quick, blink of an eye, loans on the other hand, can last forever... So if you dream to be a dentist, do it! Do it with a goal of opening your own practice as soon as you graduate! Feel free to do GRPs, etc but I think its best to just dive right in and start learning real world dentistry but just doing it! Best way to learn is to just do it. Mistakes? Yes they will happen, but learn from them. Make 1 mil a year easily if you know office logistics and have previous dental experience (which we should all have some - its required and highly rec'd when applying to dental schools). We can sit here all day and whine about how expensive it is, but unfortunately that is how it is. I guess we can just try to make the best out of all this. And I think it is doable if you have a solid plan. Just my.02 cents, to each their own flame on!

 

[2TH MVR]

The OP brings about some undeniable truths regarding the dental (profession). It has changed. Dentistry has changed because we as a society have changed. The explosion of e-commerce. We are a society that demands cell phone connectivity with everything. We demand convenience. We want free shipping. Immediate delivery. Online dental scheduling. Business open on sats-suns with ridiculous hours. Patients want ever and ever lower prices. Why pay $5500 for braces when I can get them online for less or go down the street and have many practices all trying to under-cut the competition with lower fees. We brought this upon ourselves. In order to have free shipping, lower prices, convenient hours, etc. etc. ...... SOMEONE (i.e small business like a small private dental practice) is going to take the hit. Corps with all the necessary infra-structure are geared for this. They have the size necessary to exist with smaller margins. Small business does not.

In the past "Golden Era". Dentists predominently had private practices. I had 2-3. There were very few Corp entities. Dentists worked a typical Mon-Thurs. I did. Hours were reasonable like 7-4 or 9-6. I did. There was no advertising. No marketing ... just good ole word of mouth. Your reputation meant everything. I charged a good FFS fee representative of my extensive training, experience and predictable outcome. I worked with my dental referral "colleagues" in providing the best possible Specialist-GP care to our mutual patients. Now? I'm competing with dental colleagues in regards to aligner tx, pricing, availability, instagram and Youtube channels, etc. etc. etc.

Look. That's progress. Right? We asked for this as a society. Right or wrong.

Is dentistry doomed? No. But some common sense should prevail. You shouldn't have to BUY yourself a job (pay high tuition) if that is your only choice. Do the math. Don't blame the private dental schools with the high tuition. They exist because there are those individuals who will pay those high fees. Yes. The govt with their blank checks doesn't help.
You want to live in a nice, urban city? Then you will need to adjust your perception of practicing dentistry. Do private if that is feasible or do both private and work for a DSO. Rural or semi-rural is still the last example of practicing traditionally.

Last thing. Don't go into dentistry with the sole idea of working Corp the rest of your life. That may work if you want to work PT. Spouse. Parent. I work Corp now. Everything you have read about it is mostly true. It is a **** show. It works for me (I'm older and financially independent), but not for a young grad. It's a dead end situation if you are there FT earning a paycheck.

 

[frenzysword]

What about a college education man? There is always an argument whether going to college is worth the time and money.
Spent 4 years of college as a philosophy or art major with student debt, do you think that is a good choice? I am not trying to prove or argue anything. I am just wondering because I graduated with a biochemistry major and realized that I could not find a decent job with my degree. I seriously believe that is a waste since pretty much PhD degree is preferable. Do I regret it? I don't think so. What do you guys think of going to college with a philosophy major or art music major worth it? If not, should we persuade people to pick a different major like STEM so that is much better in terms of salaries.

 

[PerioDont]

What about a college education man? There is always an argument whether going to college is worth the time and money.
Spent 4 years of college as a philosophy or art major with student debt, do you think that is a good choice? I am not trying to prove or argue anything. I am just wondering because I graduated with a biochemistry major and realized that I could not find a decent job with my degree. I seriously believe that is a waste since pretty much PhD degree is preferable. Do I regret it? I don't think so. What do you guys think of going to college with a philosophy major or art music major worth it? If not, should we persuade people to pick a different major like STEM so that is much better in terms of salaries.

For me personally I wouldn’t feel it is worth taking out student debt for an UG degree if I had no plan what to do with it.

im not against music or philosophy per say I think you should just have a distinct plan for things you do.

Personally my UG was in nutrition and plan was to become a dentist. If that didn’t work out I could become a personal trainer, dietitian, or nutritional consultant for schools/hospitals. I was also fortunate to finish UG with basically full ride. So that was my personal plan there

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Some in-state dental school tuitions are fair for the average dentist's earnings of $120k. The rest of the private/public d-schools with $300-500k pre-interest tuition is a straight up robbery. Unless youre some child of a baller conceived in a 200 ft yacht, it doesnt make sense to become a dentist. If you were a child of some multimillionaire, why would you even want to become a dentist?

If youre an average Joe/Jane DMD/DDS, you'll most likely work at some poorly managed and operated corporate dental office for $120-$150k pay under some slave contract. DSOs are just machines owned by VCs and playing the numbers game; youre their workhorse pawn.

If you think youre some "connected" bro lined up to work at your daddy's dentist friends clinic, know that there's an endless number of shady private clinic owners skipping associate pays, over treating to make up for sht insurance pay, and fuking over quitting associates.

If things go well for you, you'll be an owner of a family clinic in some saturated suburb, struggling to scrape anything from the predatory "nonprofit" insurance companies.

Remember that you still have $300-700K (interest included) debt and tied to a garbage DMD/DDS job. Your license is getting abused by your DSO "clinic manager" (some washed up used car sales manager) with no managerial skills except for the two business leadership books he's read for business school requirements. (synergy and servant leadership bruhhhhhh)

You can pretend that dentistry is still 1965 with your name, DMD/DDS engraved in front of a medical complex building or accept that youll be a corporate "licensed" salaryman with zero autonomy. Its perfect if you're fine with paying off debt til 70, obeying orders from some idiot and becoming a corporate workhorse with blinders on. If you have any sense of entrepreneurship or want autonomy, run away from this **** smeared occupation.

in before the..."dude its still good if you join the military" or "work in a town of 8,000 in middle of nowhere dishing out 20 insurance dentures a day."
Lets be real, its garbage. Golden days are far behind us. If you dont believe it, take charge and ask around.

Debt to income ratio for some comparable professional occupations
(low good, high bad)
Nurse practitioner: 0.5
Physician: 0.98
Physicians assistant: 1.00
Lawyer: 1.19
pharmacist: 1.32
Veterinarian: 1.65
general dentist: 1.88

Big Hoss

 

[deleted903013]

The rest of the private/public d-schools with $300-500k pre-interest tuition is a straight up robbery.

FWIW, many state schools now cost >300k pre interest.

 

[D1Bound]

The OP brings about some undeniable truths regarding the dental (profession). It has changed. Dentistry has changed because we as a society have changed. The explosion of e-commerce. We are a society that demands cell phone connectivity with everything. We demand convenience. We want free shipping. Immediate delivery. Online dental scheduling. Business open on sats-suns with ridiculous hours. Patients want ever and ever lower prices. Why pay $5500 for braces when I can get them online for less or go down the street and have many practices all trying to under-cut the competition with lower fees. We brought this upon ourselves. In order to have free shipping, lower prices, convenient hours, etc. etc. ...... SOMEONE (i.e small business like a small private dental practice) is going to take the hit. Corps with all the necessary infra-structure are geared for this. They have the size necessary to exist with smaller margins. Small business does not.

In the past "Golden Era". Dentists predominently had private practices. I had 2-3. There were very few Corp entities. Dentists worked a typical Mon-Thurs. I did. Hours were reasonable like 7-4 or 9-6. I did. There was no advertising. No marketing ... just good ole word of mouth. Your reputation meant everything. I charged a good FFS fee representative of my extensive training, experience and predictable outcome. I worked with my dental referral "colleagues" in providing the best possible Specialist-GP care to our mutual patients. Now? I'm competing with dental colleagues in regards to aligner tx, pricing, availability, instagram and Youtube channels, etc. etc. etc.

Look. That's progress. Right? We asked for this as a society. Right or wrong.

Is dentistry doomed? No. But some common sense should prevail. You shouldn't have to BUY yourself a job (pay high tuition) if that is your only choice. Do the math. Don't blame the private dental schools with the high tuition. They exist because there are those individuals who will pay those high fees. Yes. The govt with their blank checks doesn't help.
You want to live in a nice, urban city? Then you will need to adjust your perception of practicing dentistry. Do private if that is feasible or do both private and work for a DSO. Rural or semi-rural is still the last example of practicing traditionally.

Last thing. Don't go into dentistry with the sole idea of working Corp the rest of your life. That may work if you want to work PT. Spouse. Parent. I work Corp now. Everything you have read about it is mostly true. It is a **** show. It works for me (I'm older and financially independent), but not for a young grad. It's a dead end situation if you are there FT earning a paycheck.

Would you recommend someone become a specialist? Would that avoid some of the headache?

 

[benruitz98]

Is dentistry doomed? No. But some common sense should prevail. You shouldn't have to BUY yourself a job (pay high tuition) if that is your only choice. Do the math. Don't blame the private dental schools with the high tuition. They exist because there are those individuals who will pay those high fees. Yes. The govt with their blank checks doesn't help.
You want to live in a nice, urban city? Then you will need to adjust your perception of practicing dentistry. Do private if that is feasible or do both private and work for a DSO. Rural or semi-rural is still the last example of practicing traditionally.

You hit the nail right on the head. A lot of students with dentist parents will just go into this field because they'll have parental financial assistance or inherit their parent's estate in the future so they'll be well off.

For poorer students, they look around them and see others working a dead-end corporate job they're not "passionate" about making 40-60k/year. Those people will either stay in those jobs forever or eventually land a promotion/better job making 80-120k and there's no guarantee how long that'll last. 4 years of dentistry and 300-700k of debt essentially *guarantees* a $600-$1000 workday which can provide a better quality of life for that person (even with the huge debt). I understand dentistry is just another job and not necessarily a "passion" but it's much easier to get up in the morning when you know you'll make $1k than $200-$300 in a regular job. Money doesn't buy happiness but it sure does provide comfort and reduce stressors that cause unhappiness.

Think of it as a marathon and not as a sprint. The earnings of a dentist over 30 years far outweigh those of a regular job. Especially if someone becomes a fully licensed dentist by 26 when they're energetic and willing to work hard play hard at a DSO. It may not be rainbows and unicorns but there is literally no job out there that will pay employees $100k+ so soon.

Sure, there's comp sci and engineers making that right out of college but those are the exception (family connections, landed a rare internship which led to that job, insanely smart). These are usually geniuses of their fields and deserve every penny they get. Heck, there are realtors and loan officers (and many people without a 4-year degree) who outearn doctors, but those are the exception and they hustle!

 

[2TH MVR]

Would you recommend someone become a specialist? Would that avoid some of the headache?

It depends. If I planned to practice in a mostly rural area ..... most people need the services of a general dentist over the specialist. My mother lives in a small town outside of Phoenix. There are only 2-3 general dentists there and no specialists. Her dentist is booked out for months. Months. I know this because my mother complains about not being able to get an appointment lol. I used to practice in his office once a month (ortho). I had a hard time filling my schedule on one day a month. Patients need general dentists more than they need specialists.

The rules all change once you are in a saturated popular city. Generally speaking .... a specialist is going to make more money (if that is important to you) than a GP. Also .... there are plenty of job opportunities for specialists (and GPs) in a saturated area. The DSO I work for is still looking for 1-2 additional orthodontists. If you are willing to travel, work for 2-3 different companies .... then you can have a FT schedule. I'm fortunate in that I am working FT for just one company. As a matter of fact .... I am working too much (6 days a week) just covering for the ortho vacancies.

The negatives of being a specialist. You have to network and ask for referrals. Some specialties more than the others. Endo, Perio and OMFS need referrals. Ortho is in the middle. Pedo can exist with fewer GP referrals. When you are a young, energetic, hungry specialist .... then networking (begging) for referrals is fine. When you get older ... that whole begging scene becomes tiresome real fast. In Corp dentistry. No begging. Period.

Be a specialist if that is your true calling. But if you do not have the competitive stats necessary to attend a cheaper residency or even better .... a stipend paying residency ...... at what point is the DEBT worth it? Only you can answer that.

 

[D1Bound]

It depends. If I planned to practice in a mostly rural area ..... most people need the services of a general dentist over the specialist. My mother lives in a small town outside of Phoenix. There are only 2-3 general dentists there and no specialists. Her dentist is booked out for months. Months. I know this because my mother complains about not being able to get an appointment lol. I used to practice in his office once a month (ortho). I had a hard time filling my schedule on one day a month. Patients need general dentists more than they need specialists.

The rules all change once you are in a saturated popular city. Generally speaking .... a specialist is going to make more money (if that is important to you) than a GP. Also .... there are plenty of job opportunities for specialists (and GPs) in a saturated area. The DSO I work for is still looking for 1-2 additional orthodontists. If you are willing to travel, work for 2-3 different companies .... then you can have a FT schedule. I'm fortunate in that I am working FT for just one company. As a matter of fact .... I am working too much (6 days a week) just covering for the ortho vacancies.

The negatives of being a specialist. You have to network and ask for referrals. Some specialties more than the others. Endo, Perio and OMFS need referrals. Ortho is in the middle. Pedo can exist with fewer GP referrals. When you are a young, energetic, hungry specialist .... then networking (begging) for referrals is fine. When you get older ... that whole begging scene becomes tiresome real fast. In Corp dentistry. No begging. Period.

Be a specialist if that is your true calling. But if you do not have the competitive stats necessary to attend a cheaper residency or even better .... a stipend paying residency ...... at what point is the DEBT worth it? Only you can answer that.

I'm in the military and will more than likely specialize in the DoD, or serve my time, separate, then specialize. I have no clue what I'll end up doing

 

[2thDoc11]

It depends. If I planned to practice in a mostly rural area ..... most people need the services of a general dentist over the specialist. My mother lives in a small town outside of Phoenix. There are only 2-3 general dentists there and no specialists. Her dentist is booked out for months. Months. I know this because my mother complains about not being able to get an appointment lol. I used to practice in his office once a month (ortho). I had a hard time filling my schedule on one day a month. Patients need general dentists more than they need specialists.

The rules all change once you are in a saturated popular city. Generally speaking .... a specialist is going to make more money (if that is important to you) than a GP. Also .... there are plenty of job opportunities for specialists (and GPs) in a saturated area. The DSO I work for is still looking for 1-2 additional orthodontists. If you are willing to travel, work for 2-3 different companies .... then you can have a FT schedule. I'm fortunate in that I am working FT for just one company. As a matter of fact .... I am working too much (6 days a week) just covering for the ortho vacancies.

The negatives of being a specialist. You have to network and ask for referrals. Some specialties more than the others. Endo, Perio and OMFS need referrals. Ortho is in the middle. Pedo can exist with fewer GP referrals. When you are a young, energetic, hungry specialist .... then networking (begging) for referrals is fine. When you get older ... that whole begging scene becomes tiresome real fast. In Corp dentistry. No begging. Period.

Be a specialist if that is your true calling. But if you do not have the competitive stats necessary to attend a cheaper residency or even better .... a stipend paying residency ...... at what point is the DEBT worth it? Only you can answer that.

Alright so I've been wondering this for a while. What do people consider rural? I grew up outside of a very small town of maybe 50 people and drove 20 min to school in a town of 1200. I come from a family of farmers in ND. Closest city is about an hour away and that has a population of about 60k. Add in the surrounding area and its about 100k. Drive another hour and you hit Fargo. Fargo + surrounding areas is about 250k. If you go to the twin cities + surrounding area, the population is like 3.5 million. Just curious where you make the switch.

 

[8_man]

Alright so I've been wondering this for a while. What do people consider rural? I grew up outside of a very small town of maybe 50 people and drove 20 min to school in a town of 1200. I come from a family of farmers in ND. Closest city is about an hour away and that has a population of about 60k. Add in the surrounding area and its about 100k. Drive another hour and you hit Fargo. Fargo + surrounding areas is about 250k. If you go to the twin cities + surrounding area, the population is like 3.5 million. Just curious where you make the switch.

If there aren't enough buildings to create a skyline, I consider that rural.

 

[PerioDont]

If there aren't enough buildings to create a skyline, I consider that rural.

One dentist told me rural is when there are more cows than humans

 

[8_man]

One dentist told me rural is when there are more cows than humans

I like this one better 😂

 

[2thDoc11]

I'll just accept that all ND is rural haha

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I'll just accept that all ND is rural haha

It’s also financially one of the best places to practice.

Big Hoss

 

[TanMan]

I'm probably in the minority here that still thinks its worth going to dental, at least based on my own experiences. I came from a relatively poor background and worked my way up. I'm a simple small town solo GP practice and it's not that bad. Contrary to OPs dismal portrayal of dentistry, I'm quite the opposite. I'm in the suburbs and I don't do dentures, peds, sedation, sleep apnea, or other gimmicky stuff. I've got a fair number of competitors in my surrounding region.

There's an old saying, if you're in corporate for more than 5 years, you're probably corporate for life. That's why ownership is key and don't ever let anyone dissuade you into practice ownership. People who want to dissuade you into ownership are the corporates and practice owners that want you to remain an associate. You'll definitely be abused as an associate - the margins on dentistry and dental labor are thin, when adding in the cost of labor. Important lesson: work to be an owner quickly.

Just because you have a DDS/DMD, it doesn't entitle you to a boatload of cash. You still have to work hard for it. More than ever. If you can't work hard enough or fast enough to support yourself and/or your family, then that's on you, as the individual, not the profession.

As I've said before, 300-700k looks unfathomable as a student, looks big as an associate, but barely a dent as an owner.

inb4 top 1% dentist, etc.

 

[deleted1089378]

Some in-state dental school tuitions are fair for the average dentist's earnings of $120k. The rest of the private/public d-schools with $300-500k pre-interest tuition is a straight up robbery. Unless youre some child of a baller conceived in a 200 ft yacht, it doesnt make sense to become a dentist. If you were a child of some multimillionaire, why would you even want to become a dentist?

If youre an average Joe/Jane DMD/DDS, you'll most likely work at some poorly managed and operated corporate dental office for $120-$150k pay under some slave contract. DSOs are just machines owned by VCs and playing the numbers game; youre their workhorse pawn.

If you think youre some "connected" bro lined up to work at your daddy's dentist friends clinic, know that there's an endless number of shady private clinic owners skipping associate pays, over treating to make up for sht insurance pay, and fuking over quitting associates.

If things go well for you, you'll be an owner of a family clinic in some saturated suburb, struggling to scrape anything from the predatory "nonprofit" insurance companies.

Remember that you still have $300-700K (interest included) debt and tied to a garbage DMD/DDS job. Your license is getting abused by your DSO "clinic manager" (some washed up used car sales manager) with no managerial skills except for the two business leadership books he's read for business school requirements. (synergy and servant leadership bruhhhhhh)

You can pretend that dentistry is still 1965 with your name, DMD/DDS engraved in front of a medical complex building or accept that youll be a corporate "licensed" salaryman with zero autonomy. Its perfect if you're fine with paying off debt til 70, obeying orders from some idiot and becoming a corporate workhorse with blinders on. If you have any sense of entrepreneurship or want autonomy, run away from this **** smeared occupation.

in before the..."dude its still good if you join the military" or "work in a town of 8,000 in middle of nowhere dishing out 20 insurance dentures a day."
Lets be real, its garbage. Golden days are far behind us. If you dont believe it, take charge and ask around.

Debt to income ratio for some comparable professional occupations
(low good, high bad)
Nurse practitioner: 0.5
Physician: 0.98
Physicians assistant: 1.00
Lawyer: 1.19
pharmacist: 1.32
Veterinarian: 1.65
general dentist: 1.88

I now understand than dentistry is as crazy bad as medicine. I posted this on another board unrelated to sdn, but working as hard as we did only means being a slave to a corporate MBA shill whose only goal is to swindle you out of your hard work. We care about patients and they only care about profits and nothing else. When you were learning medicine and dentistry they were dreaming at night how to get even more profits, they only think or care about money and wrap their (possible) guilt in a flag of "we care about patients/clients/etc" and gentle and soft piano based webpage or TV commercials with slow cut scenes where they say how important "lives are" and how they are different. They're shills. And patients love soft piano music I guess, and a lot of your hard work to pay the shills.

 

[GoDental101]

Some in-state dental school tuitions are fair for the average dentist's earnings of $120k. The rest of the private/public d-schools with $300-500k pre-interest tuition is a straight up robbery. Unless youre some child of a baller conceived in a 200 ft yacht, it doesnt make sense to become a dentist. If you were a child of some multimillionaire, why would you even want to become a dentist?

If youre an average Joe/Jane DMD/DDS, you'll most likely work at some poorly managed and operated corporate dental office for $120-$150k pay under some slave contract. DSOs are just machines owned by VCs and playing the numbers game; youre their workhorse pawn.

If you think youre some "connected" bro lined up to work at your daddy's dentist friends clinic, know that there's an endless number of shady private clinic owners skipping associate pays, over treating to make up for sht insurance pay, and fuking over quitting associates.

If things go well for you, you'll be an owner of a family clinic in some saturated suburb, struggling to scrape anything from the predatory "nonprofit" insurance companies.

Remember that you still have $300-700K (interest included) debt and tied to a garbage DMD/DDS job. Your license is getting abused by your DSO "clinic manager" (some washed up used car sales manager) with no managerial skills except for the two business leadership books he's read for business school requirements. (synergy and servant leadership bruhhhhhh)

You can pretend that dentistry is still 1965 with your name, DMD/DDS engraved in front of a medical complex building or accept that youll be a corporate "licensed" salaryman with zero autonomy. Its perfect if you're fine with paying off debt til 70, obeying orders from some idiot and becoming a corporate workhorse with blinders on. If you have any sense of entrepreneurship or want autonomy, run away from this **** smeared occupation.

in before the..."dude its still good if you join the military" or "work in a town of 8,000 in middle of nowhere dishing out 20 insurance dentures a day."
Lets be real, its garbage. Golden days are far behind us. If you dont believe it, take charge and ask around.

Debt to income ratio for some comparable professional occupations
(low good, high bad)
Nurse practitioner: 0.5
Physician: 0.98
Physicians assistant: 1.00
Lawyer: 1.19
pharmacist: 1.32
Veterinarian: 1.65
general dentist: 1.88

Where’s your credibility to post this? Honestly I bet your not even a reliable source whatsoever. Pre-dent? Dental student? Applicant? Dentist? Either way I know you are a very well versed cynic. I came from nothing and dentistry has given me some awesome opportunities in life. It’s sounds like it’s not for you but no need to go out there and bash on a career that could be amazing for someone else. I’m glad I didn’t listen to the people on here years ago with your similar tone.

 

[D1Bound]

Where’s your credibility to post this? Honestly I bet your not even a reliable source whatsoever. Pre-dent? Dental student? Applicant? Dentist? Either way I know you are a very well versed cynic. I came from nothing and dentistry has given me some awesome opportunities in life. It’s sounds like it’s not for you but no need to go out there and bash on a career that could be amazing for someone else. I’m glad I didn’t listen to the people on here years ago with your similar tone.

I agree with you GoDental101. I come from a blue collar family. My perspective is that any path in dentistry is going to enable me to make a fantastic salary while sitting in the air conditioning. Sounds darn good to me.

 

[A_Mdent]

I agree with the OP on alot of points. It seems like dentistry used to be a great career for just about everyone that graduated a few decades ago (idk like 80's-2010?) Going forward, the trajectory the profession is on will mean a lot more graduates will struggle and will turn into many other careers where the majority are ok, and a small percentage at the top are killing it. Maybe more like a vet, optometrist, lawyer etc where some people are extremely successful and everyone else is lives a comfortable but average life. Aint no way a comfortable but average life needs a entry price of 500k debt.

It will be interesting to see the changes that happen to the industry in the next couple decades. I can name 7-10 things right off the top of my head that is threating dentistry. I would NEVER encourage my family or friends or even a stranger to take out 400-500k or more for dentistry. Maybe i would if they could do it for 200k, 300k if you have a tooth obsession or something. If it wasnt for government repayment programs you would 100% see a crap ton of dental graduates struggling "to the likes of which you have never seen before."

 

[GoDental101]

I agree with you GoDental101. I come from a blue collar family. My perspective is that any path in dentistry is going to enable me to make a fantastic salary while sitting in the air conditioning. Sounds darn good to me.

Yep exactly haha, anyone that complains about the opportunities that dentistry yields is probably highly entitled.

 

[benruitz98]

Yep exactly haha, anyone that complains about the opportunities that dentistry yields is probably highly entitled.

When you think about it a mechanic works physically harder for $25-$40/hr and no respect. A dentist is just doing the same type of work but on teeth for $100+/hr and more opportunities for ownership and investment.

 

[charlestweed]

What about a college education man? There is always an argument whether going to college is worth the time and money.
Spent 4 years of college as a philosophy or art major with student debt, do you think that is a good choice? I am not trying to prove or argue anything. I am just wondering because I graduated with a biochemistry major and realized that I could not find a decent job with my degree. I seriously believe that is a waste since pretty much PhD degree is preferable. Do I regret it? I don't think so. What do you guys think of going to college with a philosophy major or art music major worth it? If not, should we persuade people to pick a different major like STEM so that is much better in terms of salaries.

This is how Dave Ramsey feels about college education. According to him, it’s stupid to take out student loan, which is nondischargeable, to get a degree in History. He probably feels the same way about philosophy, art, music, and other "useless" degrees as well. If you pick one of these non-science majors (because you love it), you (or your parents) should pay for it and don’t take out a loan. Go to a cheap state school and don’t go to an expensive out-of-state college. These are Dave’s advice and I completely agree with him.

There are parents, who don’t know much about college education and let their kids decide everything. But there are a lot of parents (especially the Asian ones) who want/pressure their kids to pick the major that they think will help them get good paying jobs later on….such as engineering, medicine, dentistry, pharmacy etc. The problem is a lot of 18 yo HS kids don’t want to listen because think they are smarter than their parents. They feel it’s wrong for the parents to force them to pick the major that they don’t like. Another problem is a lot of smart kids with good GPAs feel they don’t belong to the cheap local no name state schools. They feel they deserve to be in better schools; therefore, they borrowed an enormous amount of student loan to attend schools like Harvard, Duke, Notre Dame, USC etc……for a degree in History. That’s sad!

(9) $136,000 debt and a $20,000 income? That's stupid! - YouTube

 

[GoDental101]

When you think about it a mechanic works physically harder for $25-$40/hr and no respect. A dentist is just doing the same type of work but on teeth for $100+/hr and more opportunities for ownership and investment.

Or even less than that. My first job was incredibly demanding and I made $7.50 an hour. Most guys there had been working there 20 plus years. The job also maxed out at $20 an hour with a $0.50 raise per year.

 

[PerioDont]

When you think about it a mechanic works physically harder for $25-$40/hr and no respect. A dentist is just doing the same type of work but on teeth for $100+/hr and more opportunities for ownership and investment.

I don’t think it’s really the same at all.

becoming a mechanic does not require 8 years of schooling and hundreds of thousands of dollars.

@GoDental101 I really appreciate your sentiments. I wish you the most success. I think there is definitely opportunities to do very well in dentistry just like @TanMan. Buuuut those are becoming the outliers more and more. With the advents of DSOs, and all the other factors in dentistry I don’t think it’s advisable for the average student to take out 300k+ in debt for a dental degree.

for a motivated and business minded person it absolutely is not an issue. Those people would also be successful in any industry. But the average person is just not that. Personally I’ve been obsessed with ownership, business and doing well. But in my class of 70, there were maybe 2 or 3 people even interested in discussing these topics with me.

Many want to be lifelong associates and never want to own. this factor combined with high student debts is undoubtedly going to lead towards a big shift down in average dental incomes as most will be working in DSOs as associates.

 

[deleted903013]

Or even less than that. My first job was incredibly demanding and I made $7.50 an hour. Most guys there had been working there 20 plus years. The job also maxed out at $20 an hour with a $0.50 raise per year.

Obviously dentistry with high debt is still better than $7.50 per hour with little upward mobility. However, it's not as if your only options are dentistry with high debt and a job making minimum wage. There is quite a middle ground. I'm very happy I chose dentistry as my goal is to own a rural practice. Unfortunately, many people I know have debt loads greater than half a million and plan to be associates in saturated cities for the rest of their careers or won't own out of fear of going into even more debt. This really isn't a small minority of dental students either. For them, it probably would have been wiser to go to into a different career field. I hope most people with high debt loads aspire to practice ownership. As tanman said, owning your own practice is key.

 

[D1Bound]

Obviously dentistry with high debt is still better than $7.50 per hour with little upward mobility. However, it's not as if your only options are dentistry with high debt and a job making minimum wage. There is quite a middle ground. I'm very happy I chose dentistry as my goal is to own a rural practice. Unfortunately, many people I know have debt loads greater than half a million and plan to be associates in saturated cities for the rest of their careers or won't own out of fear of going into even more debt. This really isn't a small minority of dental students either. For them, it probably would have been wiser to go to into a different career field. I hope most people with high debt loads aspire to practice ownership. As tanman said, owning your own practice is key.

A lot of dental students are the young, hip, spoiled, city dweller, jogger scrub wearing, tik tok watching types. They just want a check and then to hit the bar and enjoy night life. Many of them do not have the mentality to be the owner or to put in 50+ hours a week. These students will be a cog in a corporate chain, or an associate for me. The other type of student is the one who has hustle. The hustler is the one who will be a multi millionaire practice owner.

 

[benruitz98]

A lot of dental students are the young, hip, spoiled, city dweller, jogger scrub wearing, tik tok watching types. They just want a check and then to hit the bar and enjoy night life. Many of them do not have the mentality to be the owner or to put in 50+ hours a week. These students will be a cog in a corporate chain, or an associate for me. The other type of student is the one who has hustle. The hustler is the one who will be a multi millionaire practice owner.

lmaooooooooo. Couldn't have said it better. TBH, sometimes I step back and think "What if I just blew my loan money on vacations and new fancy cars without worrying about the future?" Obviously, I don't pinch pennies and I still enjoy my life, but I could easily borrow more to live lavishly. I used to have two side businesses back in college and these people were my favorite clients cuz they didn't care or question how much something cost.

 

[PerioDont]

A lot of dental students are the young, hip, spoiled, city dweller, jogger scrub wearing, tik tok watching types. They just want a check and then to hit the bar and enjoy night life. Many of them do not have the mentality to be the owner or to put in 50+ hours a week. These students will be a cog in a corporate chain, or an associate for me. The other type of student is the one who has hustle. The hustler is the one who will be a multi millionaire practice owner.

Exactly right. And the only ‘livable’ areas are SoCal and NYC, everywhere else is flyover country.

additionally, dentistry is now trending towards more females. I believe my school was 55% female. Of course this is not all but in my experience many females do not wish to be owners for a variety of reasons.

This demographic change will skew dentistry even more towards being a lifelong associate most likely for a DSO.

For an owner though they are ideal associates as many have no intentions of ever leaving to start/buy their own places.

 

[D1Bound]

Exactly right. And the only ‘livable’ areas are SoCal and NYC, everywhere else is flyover country.

additionally, dentistry is now trending towards more females. I believe my school was 55% female. Of course this is not all but in my experience many females do not wish to be owners for a variety of reasons.

This demographic change will skew dentistry even more towards being a lifelong associate most likely for a DSO.

For an owner though they are ideal associates as many have no intentions of ever leaving to start/buy their own places.

Yea NYC is pretty livable. I hear Portland, Oregon is also a great place to set up shop.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I hear Portland, Oregon is also a great place to set up a pot shop.

Fixed it for you.

Big Hoss

 

[2thDoc11]

Yea NYC is pretty livable. I hear Portland, Oregon is also a great place to set up shop.

Aren’t the politics a lil wack out there atm

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Aren’t the politics a lil wack out there atm

Depends if you like or dislike the rule of law.

Big Hoss

 

[charlestweed]

A lot of dental students are the young, hip, spoiled, city dweller, jogger scrub wearing, tik tok watching types. They just want a check and then to hit the bar and enjoy night life. Many of them do not have the mentality to be the owner or to put in 50+ hours a week. These students will be a cog in a corporate chain, or an associate for me. The other type of student is the one who has hustle. The hustler is the one who will be a multi millionaire practice owner.

It’s completely understandable why most dental students have very little interest in starting their own practice. They are just a bunch of young 23-24 yo people who have very little life experience. Right after HS, they had spent most their time studying +doing other extracurricular activities so they could get accepted to the dental school of their choice. And when they are in dental school, they spend most of their time studying + acquiring new hand skills to make sure they pass all the classes so they can graduate on time and pass the licensing exam. With very little clinical/business experience and a massive amount of debt, it’s hard for them to think about starting an office. I wouldn’t blame them for such lack of interest in becoming an owner. It’s just too risky for them. I didn’t have any interest in starting my own office either when I was in dental school. I was totally clueless like most of the dental students when I was at their age. Before graduation, I sold most of my ortho instruments to my co-residents, who planned to start their own office right after school, so I could earn some cash. That's how immature I used to be.

 

[TanMan]

When you think about it a mechanic works physically harder for $25-$40/hr and no respect. A dentist is just doing the same type of work but on teeth for $100+/hr and more opportunities for ownership and investment.

Dentistry at 100/hour is not worth it at all, for the amount of time wasted in school and debt incurred.

I don’t think it’s really the same at all.

becoming a mechanic does not require 8 years of schooling and hundreds of thousands of dollars.

@GoDental101 I really appreciate your sentiments. I wish you the most success. I think there is definitely opportunities to do very well in dentistry just like @TanMan. Buuuut those are becoming the outliers more and more. With the advents of DSOs, and all the other factors in dentistry I don’t think it’s advisable for the average student to take out 300k+ in debt for a dental degree.

for a motivated and business minded person it absolutely is not an issue. Those people would also be successful in any industry. But the average person is just not that. Personally I’ve been obsessed with ownership, business and doing well. But in my class of 70, there were maybe 2 or 3 people even interested in discussing these topics with me.

Many want to be lifelong associates and never want to own. this factor combined with high student debts is undoubtedly going to lead towards a big shift down in average dental incomes as most will be working in DSOs as associates.

Do you think this generation is lazier than the previous? I can't imagine why people wouldn't want to go into practice ownership. I feel like there's so much propaganda out there of how hard it is to be a practice owner and how much time you need to dedicate to your office. Of course, in the beginning, to save money, you'll have to be your own IT, plumber, HR, electrician, equipment repair guy, etc, but as your practice develops and your own hourly rate increases, you can pay people less money to do the small stuff (that adds up) for you... and it helps to be able to do some things yourself just in case your support staff is not available.

It’s completely understandable why most dental students have very little interest in starting their own practice. They are just a bunch of young 23-24 yo people who have very little life experience. Right after HS, they had spent most their time studying +doing other extracurricular activities so they could get accepted to the dental school of their choice. And when they are in dental school, they spend most of their time studying + acquiring new hand skills to make sure they pass all the classes so they can graduate on time and pass the licensing exam. With very little clinical/business experience and a massive amount of debt, it’s hard for them to think about starting an office. I wouldn’t blame them for such lack of interest in becoming an owner. It’s just too risky for them. I didn’t have any interest in starting my own office either when I was in dental school. I was totally clueless like most of the dental students when I was at their age. Before graduation, I sold most of my ortho instruments to my co-residents, who planned to start their own office right after school, so I could earn some cash. That's how immature I used to be.

I remember people selling their stuff just because they were not going to use it in their specialty. I ended up sellling it on ebay since the stuff we were taught with in dental school were completely inefficient in real world practice. If gunners in dental school can excel in learning the BS that we go through in dental school, I would think that it would be a breeze to understand the basics of business in a few days. Business isn't rocket science and mostly common sense.

 

[PerioDont]

Do you think this generation is lazier than the previous? I can't imagine why people wouldn't want to go into practice ownership. I feel like there's so much propaganda out there of how hard it is to be a practice owner and how much time you need to dedicate to your office. Of course, in the beginning, to save money, you'll have to be your own IT, plumber, HR, electrician, equipment repair guy, etc, but as your practice develops and your own hourly rate increases, you can pay people less money to do the small stuff (that adds up) for you...

I think lazy is probably an oversimplification. As a society we have been conditioned to become employees and not business owners. Additionally, the prevailing narrative at dental schools now is by presentations from DSOs on how wonderful their organization is to work for.

Many folks also just have no idea how much more lucrative ownership can be. Their goal has always just been to get into dental school, and the vast majority never really thought about what they will do afterwards.

Student loans are also a huge concern. however what many don’t realize is the best way to pay off high student loans is to make more $$ through ownership.

 

[dentistspec123]

Theses posts are really making it seem as if you can just put in long hours and just buy or start a practice and you’ll be all set….a lot of you glorifying ownership are also not realizing how much harder it is to be an owner now than it was just 10 years ago.

Few reasons why ownership is much harder:

Lower insurance reimbursements
Higher costs to do a start up with EVERYTHING. (Lease contracts, real estate, dental technology that is now expected of an office to be competitive and their costs ie digital xrays Ct scans, mills etc)
Lack of inventory of good practices being sold…many are being sold to DSOs because they can pay $$$$
Student loans (duh, putting many who can own more years out from owning)
Staffing issues (talk about millennial entitlement among dentists…how about auxillary staff…finding a hard working assistant is like winning the lotto now).
Patient expectations are on steroids (want only things approved by insurance, want everything done yesterday and want to pay the minimum but have no issue paying for a Mercedes lease or the new iphone)

As a grad of less than 6 years and someone trying to do ownership now…the grass is not always greener. There is a reason a lot of new dentists are not making the plunge right away and staying being associates…you can’t even find a good office to buy worth any value in this current market, anything good and you’re outbid by a DSO or a larger already established dental group…it’s getting harder and harder to be a solo practitioner.

Alas is it even worth it? All that effort and you start to think if it would have been better to be an engineer or a techie and have first dibs on valuable stocks that make money for you passively and give you true freedom to do whatever you want while still having a nice salary, benefits, pto, no ownership stress…now that may just me ranting 😂 who knows, What if?

 

[New_Vegas]

I just finished dental school, and looking back, I think it's absurd that anyone would even consider going to a dental school like NYU, USC, or any of those other expensive schools. It's just not worth it. Even though I didn't go to an expensive school, if I could go back in time, I would probably forgo college and go become an electrician right out of high school. One of my friends did that, and his salary is listed online at 120k because he works for the state (so you can look up his salary). I'm not sure if all apprenticeships are like this, but he had zero debt for his apprenticeship and he got paid during his training period. I took some time in college to figure out what I wanted to do, took a gap year, etc. etc. And now he's been working as a an electrician with no debt at 120k for almost a decade.

I don't think pre-dents understand the power of compounding interest. A Dave Ramsey quote is that putting $500 dollars a month invested from age 30 to 70 in a decent growth stock mutual fund (that beats the S&P 500) in a roth IRA will become over 5.6 million dollars. My electrician friend who has the power to invest at a young age is going to get rich. Not dentists who spend 700k for their schooling. Dentists who spend that much for schooling won't get out of debt until they are in their 40s (if they are lucky).. and will miss out on so much time in the market where they are either in school for too long, or are too broke to have enough money to invest.

Knowing what I know now, I think it's smarter to become a debt-free electrician/plumber/computer programmer/etc that makes 6 figures than it is to be a dentist with 350k+ debt for schooling. And in those fields it's not hard to make 6 figures. Besides, being an electrician or plumber would be great because of all the DIY projects that you could do in your house. You'd probably rarely ever have to hire a contractor to do work on your house.

 

[TanMan]

Theses posts are really making it seem as if you can just put in long hours and just buy or start a practice and you’ll be all set….a lot of you glorifying ownership are also not realizing how much harder it is to be an owner now than it was just 10 years ago.

Few reasons why ownership is much harder:

Lower insurance reimbursements
Higher costs to do a start up with EVERYTHING. (Lease contracts, real estate, dental technology that is now expected of an office to be competitive and their costs ie digital xrays Ct scans, mills etc)
Lack of inventory of good practices being sold…many are being sold to DSOs because they can pay $$$$
Student loans (duh, putting many who can own more years out from owning)
Staffing issues (talk about millennial entitlement among dentists…how about auxillary staff…finding a hard working assistant is like winning the lotto now).
Patient expectations are on steroids (want only things approved by insurance, want everything done yesterday and want to pay the minimum but have no issue paying for a Mercedes lease or the new iphone)

As a grad of less than 6 years and someone trying to do ownership now…the grass is not always greener. There is a reason a lot of new dentists are not making the plunge right away and staying being associates…you can’t even find a good office to buy worth any value in this current market, anything good and you’re outbid by a DSO or a larger already established dental group…it’s getting harder and harder to be a solo practitioner.

Alas is it even worth it? All that effort and you start to think if it would have been better to be an engineer or a techie and have first dibs on valuable stocks that make money for you passively and give you true freedom to do whatever you want while still having a nice salary, benefits, pto, no ownership stress…now that may just me ranting 😂 who knows, What if?

Sounds like arguments from corporate to not become an owner 😜.

I'm gonna hit up each and every one of your points:

1. Lower insurance reimbursements - This is true, but technology allows us to do things faster. Make up for it by volume.
2. Higher costs to do a start up with EVERYTHING. (Lease contracts, real estate, dental technology that is now expected of an office to be competitive and their costs ie digital xrays Ct scans, mills etc) - Only if you believe in the koolaid that you have to startup with everything new and expensive. Totally not true.
3. Lack of inventory of good practices being sold…many are being sold to DSOs because they can pay $$$$ - Start your own office. You can start one for cheap. Most offices are overpriced and have a culture of inefficiency.
4. Student loans (duh, putting many who can own more years out from owning) - Yes, debt can definitely hinder long term growth, but if you defer your loans as much as you can where it doesn't put too much strain on your initial cash flow and get your practice started, then student loans will not interfere with long term growth/expansion too much.
5. Staffing issues (talk about millennial entitlement among dentists…how about auxillary staff…finding a hard working assistant is like winning the lotto now). - This was a challenge, but not anymore in my state. Ever since they got rid of that federal unemployment bonus, I got lots of applications again. Also, you gotta pay above market average and provide non-traditional incentives that they can't get anywhere else such as nice vacations and all you can drink days off work.
6. Patient expectations are on steroids (want only things approved by insurance, want everything done yesterday and want to pay the minimum but have no issue paying for a Mercedes lease or the new iphone) - patient expectations are cultivated by your practice. There are some patients that I dread when I know they came from an office that babied them. We don't take that **** here.

It's totally worth owning v. associateship, since owning provides way more money and it's only bad if you're not willing to work hard/be more efficient in your practice.

Disclaimer: I've been an solo practice owner for about 8 years.

I just finished dental school, and looking back, I think it's absurd that anyone would even consider going to a dental school like NYU, USC, or any of those other expensive schools. It's just not worth it. Even though I didn't go to an expensive school, if I could go back in time, I would probably forgo college and go become an electrician right out of high school. One of my friends did that, and his salary is listed online at 120k because he works for the state (so you can look up his salary). I'm not sure if all apprenticeships are like this, but he had zero debt for his apprenticeship and he got paid during his training period. I took some time in college to figure out what I wanted to do, took a gap year, etc. etc. And now he's been working as a an electrician with no debt at 120k for almost a decade.

I don't think pre-dents understand the power of compounding interest. A Dave Ramsey quote is that putting $500 dollars a month invested from age 30 to 70 in a decent growth stock mutual fund (that beats the S&P 500) in a roth IRA will become over 5.6 million dollars. My electrician friend who has the power to invest at a young age is going to get rich. Not dentists who spend 700k for their schooling. Dentists who spend that much for schooling won't get out of debt until they are in their 40s (if they are lucky).. and will miss out on so much time in the market where they are either in school for too long, or are too broke to have enough money to invest.

Knowing what I know now, I think it's smarter to become a debt-free electrician/plumber/computer programmer/etc that makes 6 figures than it is to be a dentist with 350k+ debt for schooling. And in those fields it's not hard to make 6 figures. Besides, being an electrician or plumber would be great because of all the DIY projects that you could do in your house. You'd probably rarely ever have to hire a contractor to do work on your house.

Working for 40 years and only getting 5.6 million dollars with inflation as your enemy isn't as much as it sounds. 5.6 million dollars now is worth a lot less 40 years from now. I'd agree though, if you're only working for 120k as a dentist, you might as well not become a dentist. Although every electrician I've talked to seems to have gotten electrocuted at least once in their career, hahaha.

Something I've learned though is that accumulating wealth is not as important as enjoying life as much as you can and having the income stream to sustain an enjoyable life. All I can say is that people need to set themselves up so that they can have the cash flow to be able to do what they want, when they want, because at any time, your freedoms can be taken away at a whim (see covid). Thankfully, some tourism-dependent places are opening up without the bs (and some have remained open).

 

[New_Vegas]

Working for 40 years and only getting 5.6 million dollars with inflation as your enemy isn't as much as it sounds. 5.6 million dollars now is worth a lot less 40 years from now.

You didn't understand what I wrote. Investing only 500 dollars per month in good growth stock mutual funds in a Roth IRA for 40 years will get you 5.6 million dollars. Electricians could invest far more than 500 dollars per month. And furthermore, my friend who makes 120k is working for the state. I have an uncle who is a self employed electrician who has 8 cars and used to own his own airplane. Meaning, if you are a self employed electrician you can make a ton more than someone working for a company.
My point isn't to recommend for other people to go become electricians, it's to say that even in some fields where people make less money than dentists, they will be much better off financially due to being able to work earlier and not having debt. And if I could do this all over again, that's the route I would choose (no debt).

5.6 million dollars now is worth a lot less 40 years from now.

No kidding. But the average rate of inflation is around 2% per year. The S&P 500 index is around 10% per year, and you can get mutual funds that exceed the S&P 500. So I don't get the point of your argument.. Investing 500 per month for 40 years is only putting away $240,000 but getting a return of $5.6 million. That's pretty incredible, and THAT is the power of compounding interest.

Now, just imagine when that interest works against you when you have debt as a dentist....

 

[TanMan]

You didn't understand what I wrote. Investing only 500 dollars per month in good growth stock mutual funds in a Roth IRA for 40 years will get you 5.6 million dollars. Electricians could invest far more than 500 dollars per month. And furthermore, my friend who makes 120k is working for the state. I have an uncle who is a self employed electrician who has 8 cars and used to own his own airplane. Meaning, if you are a self employed electrician you can make a ton more than someone working for a company.
My point isn't to recommend for other people to go become electricians, it's to say that even in some fields where people make less money than dentists, they will be much better off financially due to being able to work earlier and not having debt. And if I could do this all over again, that's the route I would choose (no debt).

That's definitely true, if there's a job/career that doesn't require much training, makes a lot of money (relatively speaking), and doesn't require acquisition of debt, that's definitely a smarter choice. I guess I have my head in the sand since dentistry is mostly what I've been in as a direct career and hindsight is always 20/20. If there was a career where I could make as much without all the schooling, debt, dealing with people, and so on, I'd probably be all for it too.

 

[D1Bound]

You didn't understand what I wrote. Investing only 500 dollars per month in good growth stock mutual funds in a Roth IRA for 40 years will get you 5.6 million dollars. Electricians could invest far more than 500 dollars per month. And furthermore, my friend who makes 120k is working for the state. I have an uncle who is a self employed electrician who has 8 cars and used to own his own airplane. Meaning, if you are a self employed electrician you can make a ton more than someone working for a company.
My point isn't to recommend for other people to go become electricians, it's to say that even in some fields where people make less money than dentists, they will be much better off financially due to being able to work earlier and not having debt. And if I could do this all over again, that's the route I would choose (no debt).


No kidding. But the average rate of inflation is around 2% per year. The S&P 500 index is around 10% per year, and you can get mutual funds that exceed the S&P 500. So I don't get the point of your argument.. Investing 500 per month for 40 years is only putting away $240,000 but getting a return of $5.6 million. That's pretty incredible, and THAT is the power of compounding interest.

Now, just imagine when that interest works against you when you have debt as a dentist....

I'm all about making money. That is a big priority for me. Getting a return on my invest is important. But consider this: Money is only worth so much. Yes, a career is meant to earn you a living. Can an electrician do that? Absolutely. What are you when you've gone through that training? You're an electrician. What are you after you have gone through dental school? You're a dentist. You're a doctor. There is a difference here, and no, it isn't about "prestige." What you're getting with dental school is an experience. This is my core point. Money is one thing. An experience is another. Sure I could have made a lot of money in another career if I had put my mind to it. I didn't want to do that. I wanted to become a doctor AND make a lot of money AND have a good time doing it. Why do some people decide to do an oral surgery program with an MD degree and "waste" the extra years of training and the opportunity cost of ripping wizzies for those "wasted" years? Because they wanted to go to medical school more than they wanted the money. That's just an example. It really is all about perspective and I have learned this lesson in a great way lately.

 

[dentistspec123]

Sounds like arguments from corporate to not become an owner 😜.

I'm gonna hit up each and every one of your points:

1. Lower insurance reimbursements - This is true, but technology allows us to do things faster. Make up for it by volume.
2. Higher costs to do a start up with EVERYTHING. (Lease contracts, real estate, dental technology that is now expected of an office to be competitive and their costs ie digital xrays Ct scans, mills etc) - Only if you believe in the koolaid that you have to startup with everything new and expensive. Totally not true.
3. Lack of inventory of good practices being sold…many are being sold to DSOs because they can pay $$$$ - Start your own office. You can start one for cheap. Most offices are overpriced and have a culture of inefficiency.
4. Student loans (duh, putting many who can own more years out from owning) - Yes, debt can definitely hinder long term growth, but if you defer your loans as much as you can where it doesn't put too much strain on your initial cash flow and get your practice started, then student loans will not interfere with long term growth/expansion too much.
5. Staffing issues (talk about millennial entitlement among dentists…how about auxillary staff…finding a hard working assistant is like winning the lotto now). - This was a challenge, but not anymore in my state. Ever since they got rid of that federal unemployment bonus, I got lots of applications again. Also, you gotta pay above market average and provide non-traditional incentives that they can't get anywhere else such as nice vacations and all you can drink days off work.
6. Patient expectations are on steroids (want only things approved by insurance, want everything done yesterday and want to pay the minimum but have no issue paying for a Mercedes lease or the new iphone) - patient expectations are cultivated by your practice. There are some patients that I dread when I know they came from an office that babied them. We don't take that **** here.

It's totally worth owning v. associateship, since owning provides way more money and it's only bad if you're not willing to work hard/be more efficient in your practice.

Disclaimer: I've been an solo practice owner for about 8 years.




Working for 40 years and only getting 5.6 million dollars with inflation as your enemy isn't as much as it sounds. 5.6 million dollars now is worth a lot less 40 years from now. I'd agree though, if you're only working for 120k as a dentist, you might as well not become a dentist. Although every electrician I've talked to seems to have gotten electrocuted at least once in their career, hahaha.

Something I've learned though is that accumulating wealth is not as important as enjoying life as much as you can and having the income stream to sustain an enjoyable life. All I can say is that people need to set themselves up so that they can have the cash flow to be able to do what they want, when they want, because at any time, your freedoms can be taken away at a whim (see covid). Thankfully, some tourism-dependent places are opening up without the bs (and some have remained open).

I can understand where you are coming from and I truly believe dentistry has a vast vast scope of experiences for many people depending on a multitude of factors: your experience may not be similar to mine and vice versa. I should have prefaced my post by stating that I am a Peds so I am not a GP and I practice in the suburbs of a major metro (NYC). I am talking from my experience as a Peds with familiarity with NYC SoCal and Philly metro areas. Points 2 3 and 5 are very accurate for the market I am in. You will need new equipment to be a successful practice in NYC metro and doing a start up is definitely not cheap either here and pretty high risk (already know of 2 friends who gave up their practices because the cost was too high)…also staffing issue is still a major problem in the entire northeast let alone nyc metro.

Again you mentioned you were a solo practitioner in a simple small town…which is probably not the majority of experiences for most dentists and especially new grad dentists.

Also I was not trying to dissuade anyone from ownership as I do believe every dentist should have ownership as their end goal but rather I was trying to share my experiences and create realistic expectations of new grads trying to own their own practice.

To sum it up basically, I agree with the original post and would not encourage dentistry for anyone who has to take significant amount of debt as being an associate sucks and being an owner is not a cake walk either and not something you can just “work harder and see more volume and you’ll do well” as people make it out to be.


My 2 cents. 😆

 

[New_Vegas]

I'm all about making money. That is a big priority for me. Getting a return on my invest is important. But consider this: Money is only worth so much. Yes, a career is meant to earn you a living. Can an electrician do that? Absolutely. What are you when you've gone through that training? You're an electrician. What are you after you have gone through dental school? You're a dentist. You're a doctor. There is a difference here, and no, it isn't about "prestige." What you're getting with dental school is an experience. This is my core point. Money is one thing. An experience is another. Sure I could have made a lot of money in another career if I had put my mind to it. I didn't want to do that. I wanted to become a doctor AND make a lot of money AND have a good time doing it. Why do some people decide to do an oral surgery program with an MD degree and "waste" the extra years of training and the opportunity cost of ripping wizzies for those "wasted" years? Because they wanted to go to medical school more than they wanted the money. That's just an example. It really is all about perspective and I have learned this lesson in a great way lately.

It's kinda cute this idealistic view that you have of dentistry to be honest. Come talk to me when you are done with dental school lol. I really hope you aren't doing this for prestige, a big portion of the general public likely doesn't hold dentists in higher regard than they do an electrician, that's for sure. And by the time you are done with dental school, you will likely hear multiple times from patients something to the effect of "dentists aren't actually doctors" either by a misunderstanding or malice.