Delaying Life

[JackD]

I have been wondering about this lately. It probably started in my research methods class. We are talking about how being in college could delay the amount of time it takes you to get through the identity formation stage of erikson's psychosocial develop. The professor said that he thinks that people who go to grad school could finally move onto the next stage as late as 30 years old. I combine that idea with looking at my brother and his friends, who are about two or three years older than me (24 or 25).

They are all working at their careers, getting married, buying houses, having kids. What is strange to think about, is that if i go to grad school and become a doctor, i would be wrapping up college at the age of 27 or 28. That is just college to. That is saying nothing about getting a career nailed down and all of the time it takes to do that. It is just kind of strange to think sometimes, that while many people my age are settling down and really diving into to life, i am planning on being college for many more years. Right now the idea of buying a house or starting my career or having kids is not tempting but to think that i will be doing many of the things people my age are doing right now, in maybe a decade, seems kind of shocking when i think about it. I guess another aspect of that is that it would be the first time in my life that my path has really deviated from people my age. You know there is so much work and so many concerns about just applying to grad school that it makes me wonder what things are like when you actually get there.



I suppose i should ask, do you ever get the feeling you are delaying your life by becoming a doctor?

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[erg923]

Yes very much so! Many of my friends from high school have alot more money than me, have houses, and can afford to do more "grown up" type stuff i feel. However, I can easily tell the differences between those in my program who are straight out of undergrad, and those (like me) who have have masters and/or have worked for several years. While great people, the undergrad mentality is still easy to spot. I don't necessarily feel more mature, but more realistic and pragmatic, and much lessed focused on what bar to hang out at on the weekends...... My girlfriend and I spent this weekend shopping at home depot, painting the living room, and helping her mother. After that we stopped by a kegger that some people in my program had......we just felt out of place......

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Definitely. I got a jump start on my career and had a nice niche carved out for myself when I left. It's now 4+ years later, and most of my friends are established mid-management, own their first homes, etc. It was tough at first to see that I gave up a lot of economic advantages I worked hard for, but the alternative would have left me financially rich and intellectually poor. Money aside I'm happy....which is why I know I made the right decision, as I can always go back and make $$....I couldn't always go back and do this.

 

[JackD]

much lesses focused on what bar to hang out at on the weekends

That describes my life as soon as 2:50 friday afternoon roll around. Work hard all week and then drown the anxiety with whoever feels like joining me.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

After that we stopped by a kegger that some people in my program had......we just felt out of place......

I know the feeling. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a night out every once in awhile, but there is definitely a different "feel" for me, compared to some others. Poor enough to still be a student, and not enough time to have a lot of time to do adult things like dinner parties and whatnot....great combination!

 

[psychanon]

Oh, to be 22 again, with stars in my eyes and notions of 27 being old.....

To answer your question, grad school is nothing like college. It's closer to having a job. The main difference is the lack of money. Plenty of people get married and have kids when they're in grad school. You're still a grown-up when you're in grad school.

 

[JockNerd]

It's interesting to hear this sort of thing. I actually honestly don't feel that way at all. I couldn't care less about making money hand over fist (I'd have been a fine corporate lawyer). The 9-5 life frightens me beyond belief; that's just not the life I want. Two of my brothers had "careers" by the age I am now, but they weren't doing anything that appeals to me in the slightest (management and military).

I love what I'm doing in grad school. I can't picture myself being anywhere else (anything from a different career to medical school). The path it's setting me on is toward my dream career. If people want to measure "development" in terms of building a bank account, or buying a house, or mating and producing germ-riddled children, that's fine. It's not my idea of development.

 

[PsychappA]

I have been wondering about this lately. It probably started in my research methods class. We are talking about how being in college could delay the amount of time it takes you to get through the identity formation stage of erikson's psychosocial develop. The professor said that he thinks that people who go to grad school could finally move onto the next stage as late as 30 years old. I combine that idea with looking at my brother and his friends, who are about two or three years older than me (24 or 25).

They are all working at their careers, getting married, buying houses, having kids. What is strange to think about, is that if i go to grad school and become a doctor, i would be wrapping up college at the age of 27 or 28. That is just college to. That is saying nothing about getting a career nailed down and all of the time it takes to do that. It is just kind of strange to think sometimes, that while many people my age are settling down and really diving into to life, i am planning on being college for many more years. Right now the idea of buying a house or starting my career or having kids is not tempting but to think that i will be doing many of the things people my age are doing right now, in maybe a decade, seems kind of shocking when i think about it. I guess another aspect of that is that it would be the first time in my life that my path has really deviated from people my age. You know there is so much work and so many concerns about just applying to grad school that it makes me wonder what things are like when you actually get there.



I suppose i should ask, do you ever get the feeling you are delaying your life by becoming a doctor?

I think the same things, too, sometimes. I'll be 25 when I start grad school this fall, which means I'll be in my early 30s when I get out, so sometimes it's tough to think about not even really beginning to "move forward" until then. But a few things come to mind when I think these things. First of all, a lot of people actually go on for more school. I have many friends in law school, vet school, and grad school right now, so they are in the same boat (except most of them will also come out with a boatload of debt to pay off). I think it's becoming more of a trend to pursue education beyond a bachelor's. Also, I have seen a lot of people come out of college and mess around for several years trying to figure out what they want to do with their life. I figure I would much rather "delay life" by getting my Ph.D., not waiting tables and being kind of lost (which is fine, too, if that's someone's path). Also, I am realizing more and more that early 30s (and for that matter, late 20s) is still young! Lastly, I think who cares because I will be doing something that I love, am interested in, and that makes me happy. Ultimately, that matters the most. Just my opinion.

 

[JackD]

couldn't care less about making money hand over fist (I'd have been a fine corporate lawyer). The 9-5 life frightens me beyond belief; that's just not the life I want

That i have to agree with. I don't care about making a lot of money. Just enough to get by is fine with me. Enough money for food, shelter, and a little entertainment now and then, i would feel like i was set.

Also, the idea of having a 9-5 office job is depressing. Now i don't want everyone to think i am bashing people who work in offices, if that is what someone likes that is fine, but for me that would be like torture. Anything to do with business, cubicals, all that is totally unappealing to me.

Plus having kids is something i am going to avoid like the plague.




Really one of the things overriding any concern about delaying my life is the thought of having a career that is meaningful to me and going as far as i can. One of the things that always scared me was thinking about being 40 years old and just having some job that had no meaning, that gave me no personal satisfaction. That is one of the things that really drives me (plus the potential bragging rights )

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

<--Cares about the money, which is why I'll never do clinical work full time. I hope to do enough corp. consulting to supplement my clinical and research plans.

I had a Dilbert job for the 8 months before I started grad school (I considered it a part-time job, because I only worked 40 hours...instead of the 80+ I was use to at my previous firms), and I literally ran out of things to look up on the internet. I could never do that again, but I do miss some of the aspects of the biz world that are foreign ideas in this area. Hopefully I can meld the two together and carve out a niche....as the alternatives are just unpleasant.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Well first that's assuming everyone believes in Erikson's stages, but I digress.

I think I pretty much know my identity so that's not an issue I think about much. What I do think about is getting on with the rest of my life. I've never been one of those "either or" people, I want everything at the same time (which everyone likes to tell me is impossible). Maybe it's different for women, but I want to hurry up, graduate with my PhD at 27, volunteer with MSF for six months or a year, come back and set up an awesome career somewhere in the US, have a kid, adopt a kid, maybe get married, and solve the issue of world peace while I'm at it.

I'm not really jealous of my friends who have jobs and kids and husbands and houses. I have some friends who are already on their tenth job and third husband so I'm inclined to believe I'm doing SOMETHING right. Yeah it would be awesome to know where I'm gonna be living for the rest of my life and where I'll be working, but it also might be suffocating. If "identity formation" means I have to have everything figured out, maybe I don't wanna get there too fast.

 

[JackD]

<--Cares about the money, which is why I'll never do clinical work full time. I hope to do enough corp. consulting to supplement my clinical and research plans.

I had a Dilbert job for the 8 months before I started grad school (I considered it a part-time job, because I only worked 40 hours...instead of the 80+ I was use to at my previous firms), and I literally ran out of things to look up on the internet. I could never do that again, but I do miss some of the aspects of the biz world that are foreign ideas in this area. Hopefully I can meld the two together and carve out a niche....as the alternatives are just unpleasant.

Why didn't you go into I/O psychology? It sounds like it would be right up your alley.

 

[erg923]

"germ riddled kids".... whats that about? Guess you aren't specializing in child clinical...lol

 

[RayneeDeigh]

<--Cares about the money

Haha, agreed! Luckily my dad taught me how to invest wisely so I can rake in the bucks while I pursue my goal of world peace.

 

[JockNerd]

I had a Dilbert job for the 8 months before I started grad school (I considered it a part-time job, because I only worked 40 hours...instead of the 80+ I was use to at my previous firms), and I literally ran out of things to look up on the internet.

I used to work for the Canadian government. I didn't look out the window in the morning so that I could have something to do in the afternoon. Not fun.

"germ riddled kids".... whats that about? Guess you aren't specializing in child clinical...lol

Guh, that would be hell.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Why didn't you go into I/O psychology? It sounds like it would be right up your alley.

My previous background is much better suited for that (and it came up a couple times during my interviews), but I felt like an I/O degree wouldn't allow me to do everything I'd eventually want to do. The I/O programs I looked at really didn't give the option for therapy, and I wanted to have the training in assessment and therapy.

My goal is to run a successful consulting practice that works in healthcare, and ultimately open up a treatment center where I can still mentor, do a bit of research, see some patients....but avoid having to cram patients back to back to have a comfortable living. I feel like I can use my previous experiences and connections to put together some solid businesses and give myself the flexibility to work or not work 20 years from now. If I could have enough passive income to teach a class a semester, mentor a couple students, take on a project or two a year for fun, and have 3-4 day work weeks....that'd be my perfect life.

 

[PsychappA]

I had a Dilbert job for the 8 months before I started grad school (I considered it a part-time job, because I only worked 40 hours...instead of the 80+ I was use to at my previous firms), and I literally ran out of things to look up on the internet.

Oh my God, you have exactly described the kind of job I have right now. I really can't think of another person I can Google. I take LONG walks to the bathroom to kill time. And don't even get me started on copying and filing...

Oh, and it is one of 3 jobs I am working in order to pay my NYC rent.

The good news is it makes me REALLY excited to go to grad school. And when I am miserable and overwhelmed at points in grad school, I can always look back and say, "There is worse..."

 

[Psyched77]

I worked in a telecommunications "career" for 8 years. I loathed it! The pay was good (as much or more as a young psych grad with a PhD would get); the benefits were fantastic. The job was easy. But...I felt absolutely trapped. I felt like someone was slowly strangling me everyday when I went in to work. I dreaded work. And all of that animosity translated onto my pleasantness (or lack thereof) at home. I finally (after juggling full time work & school for a year) just quit. My friends/co-workers were shocked & thought I was crazy. After all, it was a union job...a "career." Today, I'm pursuing something that I love & am passionate about, & like many have said on these boards before, when you love it this much, it doesn't feel like work. And I'm going from a job where by bathroom breaks & calls were monitored & where 5 seconds late went down on your permanent record as a tardy...to a satisfying career where I have more freedom & am treated like an adult.

On top of all of that, I have a husband & 2 kids (ages 11 & 12) & own a home. I love them dearly, but I can freely admit that all of this would be easier/less stressful if I had done it BEFORE I had a family. That being said, savor in your current situation...one where the sky is the limit.

 

[gddr]

The professor said that he thinks that people who go to grad school could finally move onto the next stage as late as 30 years old. I combine that idea with looking at my brother and his friends, who are about two or three years older than me (24 or 25).

They are all working at their careers, getting married, buying houses, having kids. What is strange to think about, is that if i go to grad school and become a doctor, i would be wrapping up college at the age of 27 or 28. That is just college to. That is saying nothing about getting a career nailed down and all of the time it takes to do that. It is just kind of strange to think sometimes, that while many people my age are settling down and really diving into to life, i am planning on being college for many more years. Right now the idea of buying a house or starting my career or having kids is not tempting but to think that i will be doing many of the things people my age are doing right now, in maybe a decade, seems kind of shocking when i think about it. I guess another aspect of that is that it would be the first time in my life that my path has really deviated from people my age. You know there is so much work and so many concerns about just applying to grad school that it makes me wonder what things are like when you actually get there.



I suppose i should ask, do you ever get the feeling you are delaying your life by becoming a doctor?[/quote]


In short, the answer to your question all depends on how you define the goals of "life". As John Lennon said, "life is what happens while you're busy making other plans". For me, I value life experiences over meeting the norms or expectations of others.

To be blunt - OF COURSE you are delaying the "normal" timeline for "normal" life events by going to grad school! But what did you expect? The simple fact that you are qualified to GO to grad school would suggest that you are "outside" (above?) the "normal curve" (is this REALLY the first time your "path" has deviated from the norm?). If you have the talent, drive, and ability to attend grad school then you should have the ability to prioritize.
For the most part, (especially if you are NOT a woman), "normal" life goals will wait. The energy and focus to complete grad school will (most often) NOT wait!

But that's not really the point. Attending grad school (IMNSHO) shouldn't be primarily about just getting the degree to get the career. Attending grad school should be a goal, and a valued life experience, all unto itself. You should attend grad school because you are PASSIONATE about learning and CRAVE knowing more! When you start to look at grad school as a means to an end, just a way to get a career, you miss the point completely, and may find yourself regreting the time, money, and energy you invested.

Grad school is HARD (at least it is if you go to an APA approved program). I don't see how you can be happy and successful completing your program if you are not fully invested. Your passion for learning should be greater than your anxiety about fitting into peer norms.

For me, the experience of getting my Ph.D. was transformative. I would not be who I am today without the people I met, the knowledge I was guided to study, and the challenges I had to overcome. Even if I had never graduated with my Ph.D., the experience was worth the effort and time spent (but NOT the cost!).

You are at a crossroad... what do you value more? Are you willing to walk the "road less traveled"? Even if that "road" is MUCH harder to walk, may result in sacrifice, and may never "pay off" in "normal" measures of "success"?

 

[JackD]

To be blunt...you are qualified to GO to grad school would suggest that you are "outside" (above?) the "normal curve"...you have the talent, drive, and ability to attend grad school then you should have the ability to prioritize.

What a nice thing to say about everyone here. You should be blunt more often.

 

[islandgirl1]

I'm not really jealous of my friends who have jobs and kids and husbands and houses. I have some friends who are already on their tenth job and third husband so I'm inclined to believe I'm doing SOMETHING right. Yeah it would be awesome to know where I'm gonna be living for the rest of my life and where I'll be working, but it also might be suffocating. If "identity formation" means I have to have everything figured out, maybe I don't wanna get there too fast.

I second that!

 

[deleted176373]

Really one of the things overriding any concern about delaying my life is the thought of having a career that is meaningful to me and going as far as i can. One of the things that always scared me was thinking about being 40 years old and just having some job that had no meaning, that gave me no personal satisfaction. That is one of the things that really drives me (plus the potential bragging rights )

Jack,

I have had probably 6 or 7 careers now, and most of them I found interesting, meaningful, and most had high levels of personal satisfaction. I'm now 40 years old and in grad school... I'm not really worried about being developmentally delayed (although perhaps it could be argued that I am.) I will admit to having some level of professional ADD, which is what led me here to psychology, and in particular military psychology. Military psychologists, while having some strange jobs at times, also get to change venues every few years and this is a good thing for me honestly.

Like you I have no desire to be someone's cube monkey. It just wouldn't provide the level of stimulation or job satisfaction that other professions offer (both in higher and low prestige jobs.) I guess the point is that at 38, I didn't find myself in a dead end job (it was worse, I was unemployed) but rather I decided to reinvent my entire life. People who claim to be stuck in dead end jobs are often there because of choices that they have made, sometimes these choices can be overcome, other times the need to provide for one's family or lifestyle make change difficult or impossible.

Anyone who thinks that you have to make it to 40 following a particular trajectory is wrong. You can make your own rules (to a point) and you can define your own path. It won't always be fun, or pretty, or "normal", but it can be very rewarding. Now to get back to my graduate school sleep deprivation program, where you are provided more work than you can possibly manage for the amusement of the professors.

 

[Cosmo75]

I'm 32 and about to go on internship. I spent 7 years outside of psychology, working a variety of jobs right after college and then settled in I.T. for 5 years. Unfortunately the corporate world and my personality just don't jive. I did pick up a lot of skills that I use in research, but basically I walked away from everything (and a lot of money) to return to psych. I'm certainly older than a lot of my peers, but I wouldn't change my path for a second. I don't look at it as my life being delayed (I'm getting married next month), but actually quite the contrary. I'm doing what I want to do versus settling on some crappy job that I don't care about because it would have been *easier*. Forget that nonsense. I think we'd have less depression and anxiety in our country if people did more of what they wanted and less of what others think they should be doing in terms of careers. I had many people commend me for my "courage" to change careers and how they "wished they could do something different." I don't think it was courage really, just an unrelenting image of sitting in a cube ala Milton when I was 45

 

[myelin]

A lot of my friends graduated with business degrees and went on to the 9-5, corporate world, married, and some are now having children. That life just isn't for me! Some of my friends are very happy with their lives, with the structure, and with the 50k+ income, and some couldn't drink enough beer to drown away their sorrows.

I think as a whole, people are valuing education more these days because of the economy and lack of job security. Look at the companies that are constantly downsizing to lower costs. They are canning tons of employees at the drop of a hat. That just doesn't happen as much in academia or at the MA/doctoral level in our field. Computers are no substitute for clinical judgment (yet?). I also hear the common phrase, "30 is the new 20" which seems to apply very well to this topic. I'm 27 and about to graduate from my MA program and go onto a PhD program. After the PhD program and 2-year postdoc, I'll be 35. Is that normal? Well it's not as common. But normal is only a setting on the washing machine I'd rather be in school for an extra 10 years and have job security than not attend graduate school and not have the job security.

Hopefully this will lead me to the integrity in the "integrity vs despair" stage later in life.

 

[erg923]

"Computers are no substitute for clinical judgment (yet?)"

The literature would disagree with you. Actuarial methods consistently equal or outperform clinical judgment alone. Read Meehl's "dirty little book"

 

[JackD]

I see no reason to settle down into some sort of circumscribed definition of adult life.

I suppose that is true. I used to think about that a lot, i'm not sure why my views moderated. A few years ago, it upset me when people would say "in a few years, you're going to be married and have kids." Oh, is that a requirement? Maybe i need to start reflecting on that again. I always wondered why people feel they had to follow the "go to college when you are 18, start your career when you are 22, get married when you are 24, have a kid when you are 25, buy a house when you are 26" plan. Then spend the rest of your life driving a minivan and spending all of your money on toys and video games.

If that is the way you want to do things, go for it but i have seen a lot of people do that (my parents for instance), even though they really didn't want to and 20 years down the road wonder what happened to their dreams. When i used to unload trucks i worked with a lot of people in their late 30's, early 40's who would often say "why was i in such a rush to get married/have kids/buy a house etc?"

Jon, i have to agree with your philosophy of life and perhaps some time reasserting my own is in order.

 

[Cosmo75]

Live the moment. Life is not a race.

While it seems so simple, it's so true. The moment I learned to slow down and appreciate the "little things" in life, I felt this huge sense of relief and my level of satisfaction increased exponentially.

 

[MsPsychDoc2014]

<--Cares about the money, which is why I'll never do clinical work full time.

Its not ALLL about the money or anything but are you saying you can't make good money in clinical work?! That would really suck because I'm more interested in therepy then in research but I do want to live comfortably doing what I've always wanted to do.

Oh and by the way, I'm new to the forum

Oh and sorry for changing subjects...please carry on

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Its not ALLL about the money or anything but are you saying you can't make good money in clinical work?! That would really suck because I'm more interested in therepy then in research but I do want to live comfortably doing what I've always wanted to do.

Oh and by the way, I'm new to the forum

Oh and sorry for changing subjects...please carry on

First off....welcome.

My comment about money is in regard to 'relative' $'s. My previous career had a higher average and top end income, compared to clinical psychology....so clinical psychology allowed for a lower 'relative' income potential. With that being said, you can make a comfortable living (and I'd argue a much more flexible living) in clinical psychology. My career goals are a blend of both, so I'm hoping to put forth more time in the higher-$ areas, and then be able to work as much (or as little) as I want on my other endeavors. I wouldn't have left my previous career if I had to work for peanuts after this much school.

 

[Anx73B]

My priorities seem a little different than others on this forum. For me, getting my PhD is about 1> a career and 2> a career that I can feel satisfied doing. But I still look at it just as a career - nothing more. My wife is expecting with twins and I couldn't be happier. For me family comes first.

 

[psybee]

I spent my 20's out in the working world, in many different jobs (I'll be 31 when I start my phd program in the fall). I was in no way ever looking to get married and have kids, and the fact that I find myself 30, engaged to the best man ever, and contemplating a dissertation baby stuns me. On the one had dealing with all the grown up stuff of 401ks and rent and roommates and office politics and bills and the freedom on a 9-5 (I mean, g-school will be way more than 9-5) was adult in a way, and did give me a level of real world preparation that is invalueable, and also allowed me to meet many different kinds of people and shake off any sense of who I am is at all based on my academic achievement. Working in worlds where my undergrad accomplishments meant didly, and often working with people who didn't go to school, made me realize how separate a lot of my intelligence is from books smarts, how one of the best parts of ma, a part I really like, is my ability to get along with pretty much anyone and to both lead and play a motivating role in a team. I think from working I will also have a deeper insight into the lives of my clients. However, when I was working, there would be long stretches of time where I didn't feel like an "adult" at all. I didn't know what I wanted to do, and I felt more like a kid playing dress-up than a mature person contributing to our economy.

What really made me grow up was some pretty rough family stuff and 9/11, both of which happened within a span of a few months. These are things that would have happened if I was in school or not. Finally, falling in love and being part of a committed relationship has likewise made me feel more myself, more adult, more human and more invested not just in my life but in the lives of others, because love and death are something that connect us all.

While I think going back to school will be an adjustment, I think because my motivations and goals are solid and developed, this will be one of the most focused and "adult" times of my life. But the adulthood that I ultimately feel came out of my experiences with life itself, my family, my friends, my fellow citizens, and was not necessarially the product of where I was when life happened.

 

[Psyched77]

For me family comes first.

Family comes first for me too, but family doesn't mean I have to settle for a career that I don't want to do. (I couldn't be with someone who didn't support my dreams.) I think that's part of the point being made. The other point is that there is no rush to have a family. People shouldn't be stigmatized if they "wait." Plus, 50% (ish) of all marriages end in divorces; it could be argued that there is virtue in waiting to find the right mate (which, IMO, too few people do) &/or to get some of the "busy work" out of the way first, so you can devote yourself more fully to a relationship.

 

[Thrak]

I got my BA in psych at 22, my MA in psych at 25, and I'll be starting my PhD in Social Psych at 31. Of my friends, I'm very much an outlier. Many went into finance (I have one friend who is, at least for the moment, a VP at Bear Stearns). Some became teachers. Either way, most of them are in careers already. I've had four "real" jobs, counting my current one, all of them in research in one form or another.

I also started dating the woman I would marry when I was 18 (got married at 27). She finishes her JD this spring. And we're both committed to not having kids. We clearly veered off the beaten trail... ahead of the curve for some things, behind it for others, and on a different plane entirely for others yet.

I don't know about whether or not we've "delayed our lives" in any meaningful sense. In a way, I think we may have. Yes, we have "adult" concerns, like bills and taxes and property and investments and aging parents. On the other hand, we'll be at least in our mid-30s before both of us are working full-time simultaneously. And since kids are off the table, we took the usual life script and told it to bugger off... we're not bound by any other typical constraints. We have to chart our own course.

So much about reaching adulthood seems to be about following the script. If you don't go by the same schedule that most people do (having kids/getting married earlier or later than everyone else, giving up acting/writing/artistry/etc in favor of a more "responsible" career) you're looked down upon. Throw the script away, and people really don't know what to make of you.

Following the script can be easier, socially. For those who would be happy doing it, I'm happy for them. Not all of us can do that, though. For some, it's a question of circumstance. For me, I find the complacency that goes along with following the script to be utterly frightening. It lumps everyone into one big category, and assumes that one way of doing things is the best regardless of individual differences and preferences. And it ignores the cases where the script fails. It may work well for the "average" person, but what if you're not "average"?

I'd rather take my chances plotting my own course... even if I'm "delayed" by the usual benchmarks .

 

[myelin]

"Computers are no substitute for clinical judgment (yet?)"

The literature would disagree with you. Actuarial methods consistently equal or outperform clinical judgment alone. Read Meehl's "dirty little book"

Read what I posted again. I said that computers are no SUBSTITUTE for clinical judgment. However if you'd like to discuss actuarial vs. clinical, I'd be glad to.

A well-rounded clinician should use both clinical and actuarial methods of assessment to gain a representative picture of the client.

Do you have a citation for the Meehl book? I'm not familiar with it.

 

[erg923]

I wasn't referring to diagnosis, I was referring to prediction of behavior and prognosis. The original book is Meehl, P. (1954) Clinical vs Actuarial prediction: University of Minnesota Press

But the review of the impact and legacy of it by one of his former students is more user friendly I think.

Grove, W. (2005) Clinical Versus Statistical Prediction: The Contribution of Paul E. Meehl. JOURNAL OF CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGY, Vol. 61(10), 1233&#8211;1243

 

[Ollie123]

Read what I posted again. I said that computers are no SUBSTITUTE for clinical judgment. However if you'd like to discuss actuarial vs. clinical, I'd be glad to.

A well-rounded clinician should use both clinical and actuarial methods of assessment to gain a representative picture of the client.

Do you have a citation for the Meehl book? I'm not familiar with it.

Interestingly, we're not terribly far off from being able to diagnose certain disorders via EEG and other neuroimaging. Even outside the neuropsych world I mean. Some would have you believe we already can (they are liars ), but we're getting there.

Of course it still involves some degree of clinical judgment, but its a vastly different type of clinical judgment than has been used thus far, and one I expect very few clinicians will possess when the time comes.

As for the rest of the thread, I'm running around like crazy right now, but will comment when I have some time to spare

 

[toby jones]

Adolescence is a fairly recent invention. A comparative luxury, really. It used to be that there was childhood and then there was some initiation ritual around puberty and then bingo you were an adult.

It seems very strange to us now to think that a 13 year old girl would have been considered an adult and might well be pregnant with her first child.

We are growing up later and later...

My parents generation the done thing was to get married and start popping out babies at around 18. Now 18 seems far to young to know where you want to go in life and in the majority of cases far to young to commit to a partner for life!

The age at which women can safely have a child is also getting later and later with technological advances. It used to be that the average lifespan was around 30 years old... Now it has significantly increased... And the age at which females can successfully reproduce is significantly increasing, too.

It isn't at all uncommon these days for people to be 30 or 35 before they decide on a life partner and start to have kids.

There is a lot to raising kids... Where once upon a time your kids were your protection such that they would look after you when you were unable to provide for yourself... Where once upon a time childhood mortality was high so it was important to have a number of kids to maximize the chance of having some offspring who survived long enough to accumulate resources of their own... Now (with retirement funds) providing for children is a significant investment. Our ancestors didn't need to worry about supporting children in getting an ivy league education! We now see children as a financial burden rather than as our financial security...

 

[myelin]

I wasn't referring to diagnosis, I was referring to prediction of behavior and prognosis. The original book is Meehl, P. (1954) Clinical vs Actuarial prediction: University of Minnesota Press

But the review of the impact and legacy of it by one of his former students is more user friendly I think.

Grove, W. (2005) Clinical Versus Statistical Prediction: The Contribution of Paul E. Meehl. JOURNAL OF CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGY, Vol. 61(10), 1233–1243

Ok, well you didn't state that so it left me wondering what you meant. I'll check it out when I can clear a space off of my desk.

Interestingly, we're not terribly far off from being able to diagnose certain disorders via EEG and other neuroimaging. Even outside the neuropsych world I mean. Some would have you believe we already can (they are liars ), but we're getting there.

Of course it still involves some degree of clinical judgment, but its a vastly different type of clinical judgment than has been used thus far, and one I expect very few clinicians will possess when the time comes.

I definately think that imaging helps paint a picture, but for now, the proof still lies in neuropsychological assessment through the use of norm-based testing.