Dental Income

[NewNameForGoogleBot]

There is so much confusion and disparity related to the income of dentists on this board and I keep waiting for someone to post these firgures. But since no one has ... I will. This is from the authority in dentistry - CRA. They do a survey every 5 years on all sorts of things relevant to clinical dentistry. This is from the December 2001 newsletter.

From 3865 random CRA Newsletter subscribers:

-U.S. praticing general dentist, 49 years old, in pratice 22 years

-Treats 13 patients/day, 4 days/week, 200 days/year

-Mean gross of $525,000/year, & net of 200,000/year (62% overhead)

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[Supernumerary]

Yes, but there is also a huge disparity of incomes in dentistry; there are plenty making more than that median figure and plenty who are struggling to even make six figures. Financially, dentistry is not a surefire thing.

You better know and like what you're getting yourself into - 'cause you might be one of the guys barely making $80,000. (Not that 80 grand is exactly meager ) For those who are really concerned about the money, I still think medicine is the way to make guaranteed bank.

The main thing is that dentistry rocks! I just got the new issue of Dental Economics today; I get so pumped reading through all the articles. Even the ads get me excited. I wouldn't really care if I was making $50,000 - dentistry is awesome, baby!

 

[mcataz]

Here are other ads

NEW LISTING! General practice with high percentage of cosmetics and implants has been established for over a total of 20 years. This thriving practice is located in heart of residential and attracting patients mainly from the Lagunal Niguel, Aliso Viejo, Nellie Gale and Laguna Hills area. Grossing close to $1,000,000+ Well organized, highly trained staff. Fully equipped, state-of-the-art. Prestige practice. Qualified Buyers only.

Practice has been established since 1990. Located in a professional building. Doctor works 24 hours a week. 25% Insurance, 25% Cash, 25% prepaid and 25% Capitation. Gross for 2001 was $672,00; this year's projected to be $800,000+. Sole Practioner. Great Opportunity.

These are general dentists. These guys didn't have to do a 5-8 residency. They didn't have to graduate at the top of their class. Most doctors would be hard pressed to be grossing that income unless they endured at least 5 years of residency and were in a rare specialty. What are the chances of that happening.

If you want a guaranteed 120K for the rest of your life, then medicine is a better option. But if you want the chance to make a lot of money, dentistry is the way to go. Unless you get a rare speciality or internal medicine subspeciality, you won't have the opportunity to make a lot of money in medicine. And keep in mind that most of these rare specialties range from 5-8 years of residency. That's a long time comapred to no residency for most General dentsists. You do the math.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Supernumerary,

I appreciate your post, however medicine (MD/DO) is NOT a guranteed way to make bank.

There are a couple specialties that are really sweet still (but even those have taken a plunge in $$ over the last five years), but who says you will match with one of those specialties?

Dentistry is currently one of the best options for making bank. $$ will vary given location and type of practice, but the door is certainly open for those who graduate with a DDS/DMD.

jaap,

CRA is just down the street from me here, and they actually have data that is newer than that. I'll try to get it for you.

 

[NewNameForGoogleBot]

Thanks Gavin

 

[Angdeep]

I'll tell you this much.... the only way to make real money in dentistry is to do implants and cosmetic dentistry...and how do we get into doing that?? we have to take courses after dental school as well....dental school education is not sufficient to get into implants and all..my dad is a dentist has two practices... he was doing fine with general dentistry...but the second he took an implant course and started doing implants, he's making way more monthly than he was even before...but then again it also depends on the location of your practice..if you're practicing in an area such as malibu or san francisco or monterey/carmel where people are willing to pay enough for implants, then its money in the bank....But i agree, there are enough dentists who just aren't making any money at all and enough who are....so in the end you just have to have the drive and really be good at it but thats true with any field.....
As far as medicine goes, how long does it take to actually start making any money?? you go through med school and then residency and by the time you're 30 if you get a decent position, you make money....

 

[Supernumerary]

Gavin, would you mind sharing that info here on the board if you're able to get it. I think we'd all be interested. Thanks.

 

[NewNameForGoogleBot]

Exactly, hence the average age in this survey being 49 yrs.

 

[Dentoman]

Here is some info from the ADA

http://www.ada.org/prof/pubs/dbguide/newdent/income.html

 

[FMLizard]

LOL, dentistry will be easy for me after this coming year, and so should dental school I think I am going to accept a 80-100 per week consulting gig in MIS for one year during my dead year while I establish residency in MN. I will be able to save enough to pay off my car entirely and rathole away 15-20K for living through the long road ahead. Then again, I could just bartend and party. Who knows. All I know is that I cannot wait for my dental journey to begin. I even am thinking of heading back to MI so I can get going a year early, even at the expense of my girlfriend and life in Minneapolis.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Here is some more recent CRA data:

-U.S. praticing general dentist, 46 years old, in pratice 19 years

-Treats 14 patients/day, 4 days/week, 196 days/year

-Mean gross of $549,000/year, & net of 218,000/year (61% overhead)

This is data from 4253 random CRA Newsletter subscribers.

 

[Supernumerary]

-U.S. practicing general dentist, 46 years old, in pratice 19 years
-Treats 14 patients/day, 4 days/week, 196 days/year
-Mean gross of $549,000/year, & net of 218,000/year (61% overhead)

Sweet! That's an entire month of vacation.

 

[DrJeff]

Originally posted by Angdeep
I'll tell you this much.... the only way to make real money in dentistry is to do implants and cosmetic dentistry...and how do we get into doing that?? we have to take courses after dental school as well....dental school education is not sufficient to get into implants and all..my dad is a dentist has two practices... he was doing fine with general dentistry...but the second he took an implant course and started doing implants, he's making way more monthly than he was even before...but then again it also depends on the location of your practice..if you're practicing in an area such as malibu or san francisco or monterey/carmel where people are willing to pay enough for implants, then its money in the bank....But i agree, there are enough dentists who just aren't making any money at all and enough who are....so in the end you just have to have the drive and really be good at it but thats true with any field.....
As far as medicine goes, how long does it take to actually start making any money?? you go through med school and then residency and by the time you're 30 if you get a decent position, you make money....

You don't have to be in a "major" area, or even an affluent area to make a very comfortable living as a dentist. Frankly, many of my dental colleagues with the largest incomes are actually practicing in blue collar, rural areas, my self included. One of my former dental school roomates practices in a very small town in North Carolina just about on the Virginia border about a hour from the Winston-Salem area. There are more mobile home sales companies in the town than video stores. Just about everyone knows everyone on a first name basis. Classical small rural America. He's making about twice the national average, grossing over 1,000,000, he's 32 and works 27 hours a week with 6 weeks of vacation Oh yes, and he does about 10 to 15 implants per year and 5 or so "true cosmetic" cases(6 or more veneers and/or crowns).

I'll also say that personally when I left my first associate job in an affluent surburban area and came out to the rural area that I now live and practice in, my gross production and net incomes all went up close to 50%, while my average hours per week worked went from 34 to 28, and to top it all off, the fee schedule her in the rural area is about 15 to 20% less than in affluent surburbia. Plus, the patients in the rural area just are flat out more appriciative of the work being done, and actually are ALOT better at paying their bills on time

You can and will make a good living in dentistry in almost any area of the country, just remember that if you're picking a practice location based on where you'll likely make the most money that you have to be happy where you go home each night, and you may actually find out that you'll be much happier and actually make more as a result in an area that you might not of thought of as a location for a high netting practice.

 

[ddstothecor]

Dr. Jeff--I just have to compliment you on your down-to-earth insight about the dental profession. If I see that you've posted, I always read it.

 

[Frank Cavitation]

Dr.Jeff,

I don't doubt your experience one bit, but just having trouble with the math... You say that in rural towns you can work fewer hours, and have a lower fee schedule but gross more than in the city! So if you are doing the same ratio of procedures both your hourly earnings and number of hours worked have decreased suggesting definitely a reduced gross. Let's not talk about rent and other overhead as that comes after gross...

So, the only way you can earn more while working less is by having more lucrative procedures in the appointment schedule... like fewer operative and more fixed prostho... but the population itself still has the same percentage of people needing fillings and crowns. (actually I have a stupid preconception that rural people are less likely to spend as much on esthetic restoration because they are less pretentious but that question is for another time )

Anyway, my point is, for every dentist going the high road, 30 hours a week and grossing $500k+, isn't there an unfortunate "chump" across the street in the same small town working 60 hours a week on non-stop amalgam preps and earning less? I think I can enjoy life outside the city, but not if I have to be that "chump"!


(added: hmm another point I'd like to make about the validity of the CRA poll... isn't it based on subscribers filling a survey? I would think that it's probably slightly overstated as the folks not earning much may be either: a) not filling in the survey or b) not members... so if you got someone to do a really random phone survey to dentists (not just CRA subscribers) the figure might be somewhat lower)

 

[juan7677]

These are all great info. Thanks guys.

 

[DrJeff]

Originally posted by Frank Cavitation
Dr.Jeff,


So, the only way you can earn more while working less is by having more lucrative procedures in the appointment schedule... like fewer operative and more fixed prostho... but the population itself still has the same percentage of people needing fillings and crowns. (actually I have a stupid preconception that rural people are less likely to spend as much on esthetic restoration because they are less pretentious but that question is for another time

Suprisingly enough, even with lower fees on a rural population, I'm doing alot more endo/crown and bridge than I was in the affluent surburbia world. My experience has been when the person in affluent surburbia was told that they'd need and endo/ post+core/crown vs. an exo and possible bridge/implant to replace/restore the tooth, the next obvious question they'd ask is "how much will my insurance cover??" I'd tell them that based on my fees(and/or endodontist fees/oral surgeons fees) the cost to restore that tooth/potential endentulous area would be around $3000 and **most** insurance plans would pick up a total of about 1/3 of that fee per calender year (generally about 1/2 the endo fee and about 1/2 the crown fee and little if any of the post+core). I'd also let them know that if an extraction/implant was the option that there are very few insurance companies that have implant coverage at this time, so that would be completely an out of pocket expense. After hearing all this, a fairly high percentage(on average between 40 to 60 percent in my experience) would opt for the extraction and NO subsequent restoration, especially if it was a posterior tooth (and this is afer I've told them about potential tooth movement/hyper-erruption/bone loss, etc)

In my rural small town setting with lower fees, I can tell the patient in the same scenario that the endo/post/crown will cost around $2000, insurance will cover about 2/3's of this (with lower fees, the endo cost doesn't go through as big a portion of the patients deductable and hence more is left to pay for the crown afterwards). Also, if they opt for the extraction/implant route, my fees are also a little over $2000(including surgeons fees), and that number seems to be a bit more palitable for folks to handle. Now, I'm finding that 75+% of these patients are saving the tooth and doing the endo/crown Additionally, on an anecdotal note, people that may not have as much per capita income as others, just seem to value their possessions more than those that have more. The lower per capita folks also seem to be better about paying their bills on time too!

The other advanatge I've seen about working in a more rual area where the average person's dental I.Q. may not be as high as in other areas is that the amount of decay is greater than in the more affluent area(My office gets ATLEAST 3 new patients a month that need 20+ restorations). Hence, if in suburbia if on a recall exam I'd find 1 interproximal lesion that needed to be done, they'd often have a composite placed for around $150-200. In the rural area, I'll often find 2 to 4 restorations that need to be done/replaced at $100 to 150 per tooth. You can see now how I can gross/net more while working less hours, there is simply more quality billing work to be done per hour than in my suburban location.

 

[Supernumerary]

-U.S. practicing general dentist, 46 years old, in pratice 19 years
-Treats 14 patients/day, 4 days/week, 196 days/year
-Mean gross of $549,000/year, & net of 218,000/year (61% overhead)

I tend to be a little skeptical when I see these huge numbers being thrown around too, Frank C. At first, I thought there was no way these numbers were realistic. But when you work it out, it comes to ~$200/patient visit. Not unreasonable at all. That is only a prophy/exam and a 2 surface filling.

Even your "amalgam monkey" should be able to come close to these numbers if he's keeping his office full.

 

[DrJeff]

That's the way to think about it. Just think, if you have only 1 big procedure a day (an endo or a crown or a denture) where you're billing atleast $750 for it and using maybe an hour of chair time, that gives you 7 more hours where if you're billing at $150-200 per hour(we're only talking a filling or 2 an hour here now), you've had a $2000 production day. Give yourself 196 of those and you've produced $392,000 for the year. Then you take the production of your hygenists(typically about $100 to 150 per hour) and you add another $1000 per day per hygenist/ $196,000 per year per hygenist to the office production, and you can see how those numbers are really quite realistic, and if your practice keeps growing you'll be able to add more hygiene hours, and more patient procedures for yourself over time and you can really start to see the gross(and net) go up.

The key though is finding a way to get new folks into your office, preferably by "word of mouth" referals, those will often become your "good" patients since one of their satisfied friends have already told them that "you are the greatest dentist in the world" and alot of the initial skepticism that some folks have when you meet them for the first time and tell them that they need A,B, and C done is gone, and you're off and the handpiece is spinning and your production is climbing

 

[ItsGavinC]

As always, it is a pleasure to read Dr. Jeff's posts and learn from his experience.

Frank, the CRA info wasn't posted to mislead anybody. The survey is certainly valid, but it does have its limitations, many of which you mentioned.

Dr. Jeff did a nice job of breaking down exactly what it might take to reach those type of earnings, and as we can see, it isn't far-fetched at all.

Good luck to all of us!

 

[Frank Cavitation]

Yeah, thanks to another informative post from Dr.Jeff!
I guess the "trick" is to get the towns folk to raise their dental IQ and buy into preservationist techniques. And it seems to make sense that the combination of higher procedure costs and "tight-walleted" attitude of city dwellers make the countryside a profitable (and enjoyable) place to work.

 

[quantumhead]

I like this thread. I have been struggling with weather to work in DC (BIG MONEY DC) or in a more rural area.

Ultimately, you can make a living in Dentistry, weather you associate, have a small office, or a large mega-office. It is up to you how much you want to make. It is not a guarantee, nothing is. I have seen Dentists drive thriving practices into the ground in less than a year. I have also seen others make a killing in the most unlikely places. The Dentistry is easy(for most), practice management and business sense is what gets you up into the money.

 

[DcS]

What's really nice about rural areas is that some schools (UNC where I'm at) will reimburse your entire dental school tuition if you work in a "rural" area for 4 years (i think it's 4). It's really nice because if you wanted to live in Charlotte, for example, you can live there and work in an area that qualifies as "rural" when it's only 20 miles outside the city. Very hard to turn down in my eyes. It's due to the extreme shortage of rural dentists in NC.

 

[dentalvibe8881]

I grew up in a rural area outside a decent sized city in the midwest. I can tell you that you can earn very good money in these types of settings. If I was only concerned with money, I would probably choose to live in one of these areas.

However, I would rather make less and live a large city. I don't see what the point of making an insane amount of money if you have nowhere to spend it. And for me, a couple of weekends out of a month doesn't make up for it. I want to be able to catch a Suns game after work if I can help it.

 

[PashaJ]

live in the city and commute to the rural area.

 

[FMLizard]

I am sure that whatever it is, it beats selling cell phones for $12 bucks an hour like I will be doing this summer.

My dad couldn't help but notice my small town dentist's brand new Jaguar convertible on his way to a root canal a couple weeks ago...he "absolutely recommended" the profession to me.