dental salary

[Lesley]

Heck, nowadays, you can often end up billing close to if not over $1000 for a quadrant of direct composite fillings.

....and that is the key to a successful practice, being a to bill your full fee and not accept a discounted fee. With a little hard work and patient base the money just follows. It only took us 20+ years to figure out and implement that one!

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[DrJeff]

....and that is the key to a successful practice, being a to bill your full fee and not accept a discounted fee. With a little hard work and patient base the money just follows. It only took us 20+ years to figure out and implement that one!

I hear you 100%, or as my partner and I put it, "inspite of our efforts, it all works out" I just know that if ever one of the big practicement guru's out there (i.e. the Levin group, etc) came to my office and saw how we did things, they'd likely have a heart attack and drop dead on the spot. The thing is, for the area where I practice, how we do things, as backwards as it may be compared to many of the practice management models out there, it works for my patient population, and that in turn has my existing patients telling their friends who then often become happy new patients!

What I mean by doing things backwards, is the current trends amongst the practice management guru's out there is basically, 100% at time of service, and whatever can't be paid out of pocket that day gets outsourced for 3rd party financing. How I do it, if for those that have insurance (even if I'm not a participating provider), we wait for the ins. company to re-emburse either the patient directly or my office, and then after the ins payment is recorded, then balance bill the remainder. If it's a big case, or if theres a big post insurance patient balance, we'll finance the balance at 0% interest through my office with the patient setting the monthly payment amount (i.e. if they owe me $1000 and can only pay me $20 a month, it's 50 months until I'm paid off), only the biggest of cases, or patients where I feel their's a very significant risk of defaulting on paying the balance will I use a 3rd party financing company (i.e. Care Credit, etc).

It works for my office, just about everyone is paid off in 6 months, and the small monthly payment folks tell their friends, and thats a new patient, and often more billing. I'm definately not saying that this is the best plan for everyone, its far from it, but, in the location I'm in, with the patient base I have, it works, and works quite well You just need to find what style works for you!

 

[jeninny44]

Maybe you should look for a husband or wife in school if you don't already have one if your so worried about the salary issue. Both you guys can be making around 220-240K right out of school. But then you'll have twice the debt. It is funny. This is the plan that most of the girls I know who got in this year are going to do...

Details, you gotta post details. You can't throw that gem out there, and leave the rest of us hanging. Sounds like comedic gold. Post some details please.

 

[phungy]

Boy, that really clears everything up now!

I guess its just that simple isnt it. How many times have you found second and third mesial buccal canals in max 6 year molars? All I am saying is that there is a push to consider standard of care (especially in molars) treatment with a microscope. Maybe your educational experiance was different, and you treated hundreds of canals WITH SCOPES. And yes, I know how to treat endo. I've done over a hundred molar cases since graduation. Interesting tone for a moderator.

Might I add, it seems he likes ignoring PMs too. Sent him a PM 2 days ago, no reply but he's got time to reply to threads.

 

[platinumcaps]

I worked for a predominantly medicaid doctor who says that he makes 250k a yr. He makes 35% of production, works 6 days a wk, 8 hr days, sees 15-22 patients a day.

A dentist that my fiancee works for claims to make around 300k a yr. He works 6 days a week, owns his own practice, 9 hour days, sees about 10-15 patients a day.

A new associate told me that it was possible to get 120k right out of school in NYC.

This is what they told me, so take it for what it is.

What I don't get is why dentists would lie about what they make. If they were all honest, then it would really help new graduates with what they can expect. I don't get why ppl have to be so secretive about their income.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Boy, that really clears everything up now!

I guess its just that simple isnt it. How many times have you found second and third mesial buccal canals in max 6 year molars? All I am saying is that there is a push to consider standard of care (especially in molars) treatment with a microscope. Maybe your educational experiance was different, and you treated hundreds of canals WITH SCOPES. And yes, I know how to treat endo. I've done over a hundred molar cases since graduation. Interesting tone for a moderator.

Fair enough, but based on your theory nobody without a scope should do endo, and that would include endodontists. There may be a push towards that technology, but it's nowhere near the standard of care currently.

You're suggesting that I think posterior endo is easy. That's not true (and my apologies if it came across that way). I'm merely stating that the standard of car new grads CAN (and do!) complete some excellent endo. Your argument was that dentists one or two years out couldn't possibly complete molar or premolar endo to the standard of care. I don't think that's true. Endo isn't easy for some, but to say that a new grad can't do a premolar endo properly doesn't sit well with me.

Perhaps the appropriate argument that we can both agree on is that molar endo is often not done well, either due to inadequate fills or the clinician missing canals completely. I'll admit that there is a reason I'm not an endodontist.

 

[OceanDMD]

Fair enough, but based on your theory nobody without a scope should do endo, and that would include endodontists. There may be a push towards that technology, but it's nowhere near the standard of care currently.

You're suggesting that I think posterior endo is easy. That's not true (and my apologies if it came across that way). I'm merely stating that the standard of car new grads CAN (and do!) complete some excellent endo. Your argument was that dentists one or two years out couldn't possibly complete molar or premolar endo to the standard of care. I don't think that's true. Endo isn't easy for some, but to say that a new grad can't do a premolar endo properly doesn't sit well with me.

Perhaps the appropriate argument that we can both agree on is that molar endo is often not done well, either due to inadequate fills or the clinician missing canals completely. I'll admit that there is a reason I'm not an endodontist.

I NEVER said a grad cant do premolar or molar for that matter endo properly. All I am implying is that it is hard, I thought I was skilled until I saw what some specialists and general dentists were doing with cases on dentaltown. Ive probably missed many canals because I dont use a microscope, and that is a potential for failure. SO, answer me this, a new dentist does an apparent straight forward RCT on #3, all to your definition of standard of care(at apex or 1mm from with dense fill). A canal is missed(which is not hard to do WITHOUT A MICROSCOPE) and the tooth blows up on the patient 2 months later, facial infection, tooth extracted, missed canal identified. Patient decides to file suit, and gets testimony from your friendly endodontist who uses a scope, and is currently advocating it as standard for molar treatment. A dentist 10 years out with a track record, maybe your OK. A new grad, do you think it might be considered cavalier? I know it worries me. But I guess you have the technique all figured out, 1mm from apex, dense fil, minimal/no voids.

And another thing, I am not referring to an Endodontist who doesnt use a scope. Are you kidding me?

 

[johntara04]

gets testimony from your friendly endodontist who uses a scope, and is currently advocating it as standard for molar treatment.

Sounds good on paper, but as Gavin said, scopes ARE NOT the standard of care, so it wouldn't hold up in a court. Also, in most cases, you would redo the endo for free, or refer to an endodontist. 999,999 out of 1,000,000 patients wouldn't sue. And if they did, they can't get too much money out of you. You are a dentist. It is not life or death. Worst case senario, you refer to your malpractice insurance and a couple months later your premium goes up 20 bucks a month.

I think this is one of the biggest reasons some dentists don't make nearly as much money as they could. They are too scared to do the procedures that they have been trained to do.

 

[johntara04]

And another thing, I am not referring to an Endodontist who doesnt use a scope. Are you kidding me?

There have been millions of endo done without scopes for years that have turned out just fine. This is like saying "I won't go to a dentist that doesn't use loupes." "Or, I won't go to a dentist that doesn't use at least 3.5 mag loupes."

Just b/c you have loupes/scope doesn't mean you are great. Also, just because you don't have loupes/scope doesn't mean your incompetent.

 

[OceanDMD]

There have been millions of endo done without scopes for years that have turned out just fine. This is like saying "I won't go to a dentist that doesn't use loupes." "Or, I won't go to a dentist that doesn't use at least 3.5 mag loupes."

Just b/c you have loupes/scope doesn't mean you are great. Also, just because you don't have loupes/scope doesn't mean your incompetent.

You're right. Just stick to your 1mm from the apex, and dense fills and you'll be just fine. This world certainly isnt becoming more educated and more litigous about their medical/dental treatment. Hell, why not just continue stuffing steel points in canals, they worked for years and years.....

 

[albany11]

I worked for a predominantly medicaid doctor who says that he makes 250k a yr. He makes 35% of production, works 6 days a wk, 8 hr days, sees 15-22 patients a day.

it's possible if you cheat the system or do shady work:
ex surgical exo=$100 instead of simple exo=$40. Medicaid reimbursement is low. An ethical Medicaid provider can produce these numbers by seeing
50 patients a day at lightening speed


A dentist that my fiancee works for claims to make around 300k a yr. He works 6 days a week, owns his own practice, 9 hour days, sees about 10-15 patients a day.

it's possible for an excellent dentist with experience, good patient base. Takes time to build (10+ years sometimes) No guarantees
though.

remember:
school loan 100-300k
business loan 200k-700k
house ? 200k-500k
you'll be in debt for a long time

 

[aphistis]

I worked for a predominantly medicaid doctor who says that he makes 250k a yr. He makes 35% of production, works 6 days a wk, 8 hr days, sees 15-22 patients a day.

it's possible if you cheat the system or do shady work:
ex surgical exo=$100 instead of simple exo=$40. Medicaid reimbursement is low. An ethical Medicaid provider can produce these numbers by seeing
50 patients a day at lightening speed


A dentist that my fiancee works for claims to make around 300k a yr. He works 6 days a week, owns his own practice, 9 hour days, sees about 10-15 patients a day.

it's possible for an excellent dentist with experience, good patient base. Takes time to build (10+ years sometimes) No guarantees
though.

remember:
school loan 100-300k
business loan 200k-700k
house ? 200k-500k
you'll be in debt for a long time

You sound like you've had a pretty rotten experience with dentistry so far. I hope things improve for you.

As for some morals from your story:

1) Medicaid is a sucky reimbursement plan. Do Medicaid cases because you want to give away some charitable dentistry, not because you want them to make you money.

2) Good fee schedules are vitally important. My *dental school* charged more than $40 for routine extractions, which should tell you something about where your fees fall on the percentile curve.

 

[HuyetKiem]

I am going to call complete BS on this one. 1 to 2 years out, 4 k per week, well lets see......thats 208k/year. Not even as a practice owner. As a practice owner (considering the average makes around 200k), why in the hell would you pay an associate 200k unless they are producing 500-700 k. One or two years out, not only do you have to have speed, but also a pool of patients that need alot of work, and have plenty of money to pay for it.

I've spent last couple days working on payroll as part of my shadowing so I do know the numbers. And yes, there is a large pool of patients with money in 2 offices (within half a mile) with 16 chairs, 3 dentists and an average of 30-35 patients/day.

And this crap about paying 50% for root canal therapy, since when does a first or second year out dentist perform complicated molar endo, or premolar endo for that matter at the standard of care required for longterm good prognosis? Molars and premolars are more likely candidates for RCT that your single rooted anteriors.(although many anteriors-lower anteriors-have multiple canals). Go to dentaltown and check out what endodontists are doing with molar endo.

Of course, it takes lots of time for RCT procedure and it is a main reason the owner is willing to pay 50%. It is up to the associates to control the time and case selection. If it is busy, they can do step 1 and 2 in 2 separate appointments or refer.

Unless you are signing on to a dental corp or mill, a good contract(as an associate) will pay you about 35% of collections. Collections should be about 95-99% of your adjusted production. Work out the numbers, if you want to make 200k,......you better have a generous employer, lots of new patients, and the ability to produce $571,428.00----which is above the average practice owner based on recent surveys.

To simplify the paying process and less work, the owner is paying his associates 35% on overall production of that 2 wks and not on collections or adjusted production... There are alot of generous dentists out there and I happen to know some of them.

 

[Lidopaine82]

I've spent last couple days working on payroll as part of my shadowing so I do know the numbers. And yes, there is a large pool of patients with money in 2 offices (within half a mile) with 16 chairs, 3 dentists and an average of 30-35 patients/day.



Of course, it takes lots of time for RCT procedure and it is a main reason the owner is willing to pay 50%. It is up to the associates to control the time and case selection. If it is busy, they can do step 1 and 2 in 2 separate appointments or refer.



To simplify the paying process and less work, the owner is paying his associates 35% on overall production of that 2 wks and not on collections or adjusted production... There are alot of generous dentists out there and I happen to know some of them.

hey, hook a fellow Case student up! ....please? lol

 

[albany11]

I've spent last couple days working on payroll as part of my shadowing so I do know the numbers. And yes, there is a large pool of patients with money in 2 offices (within half a mile) with 16 chairs, 3 dentists and an average of 30-35 patients/day.

maybe so, but not the norm. in real life, it's not that easy as an associate to make $200k+, let me know your if you find a job like this

 

[johntara04]

I was thinking about making $200,000+ as an associate. The avg associate gets 35% commission, so for them to get $200,000 they would have to produce/collect $575,000 a year, or with one month off, approx. $2,400 a day. I mean, if you get 10 pts a day, that would be $240 per patient and that is attainable. If each patient has 2 fillings, you should hit that number. So, technically, it shouldn't be that hard to get $200,000 a year, but from reading on dentaltown, it sounds like a lot of associates get screwed (used as hygienists, pediatric dentistists, phobic, etc) so they end up doing the crap while the owner gets all the high production cases. So, I wonder if that is what makes it so hard to make good money as an associate?

 

[OceanDMD]

I was thinking about making $200,000+ as an associate. The avg associate gets 35% commission, so for them to get $200,000 they would have to produce/collect $575,000 a year, or with one month off, approx. $2,400 a day. I mean, if you get 10 pts a day, that would be $240 per patient and that is attainable. If each patient has 2 fillings, you should hit that number. So, technically, it shouldn't be that hard to get $200,000 a year, but from reading on dentaltown, it sounds like a lot of associates get screwed (used as hygienists, pediatric dentistists, phobic, etc) so they end up doing the crap while the owner gets all the high production cases. So, I wonder if that is what makes it so hard to make good money as an associate?

I was thinking that too. 2.4k / day, gosh thats soooooo easy. Patients just jump out of the woodworks to fill the schedule. In fact, If you have 30 new patients in your first week, you could probably do 3k/day(the first 2 months if they all need two or three fillings, and a root canal here and there, and Im sure you will have patients begging you to veneer there anteriors ). I dont have my calculator in front of me, but I know you are good with numbers and can break down that salary. You should really set your sights on 300k as an associate. I mean why not make as much as the average specialist.......

 

[johntara04]

I was thinking that too. 2.4k / day, gosh thats soooooo easy. Patients just jump out of the woodworks to fill the schedule. In fact, If you have 30 new patients in your first week, you could probably do 3k/day(the first 2 months if they all need two or three fillings, and a root canal here and there, and Im sure you will have patients begging you to veneer there anteriors ). I dont have my calculator in front of me, but I know you are good with numbers and can break down that salary. You should really set your sights on 300k as an associate. I mean why not make as much as the average specialist.......