Dental School Dropout Rates and Policies

[Dr Hope]

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I am applying for admission this cycle. My GPA is 3.32 ( Chem eng major ) and DAT 18/19/18. My first preference is NYU but I am little scared of NYU drop out policies. But I do not know what goes on in other schools. To help many of the applicants, I will appreciate if students at dental schools provide following info about their schools (1) drop out rate at end of Ist yr (2) drop out rate at end of 2nd year (3) Policy regarding failed student - repeat the year/kicked-out of school

 

[grtuck]

My class (graduate in 2006) had 1 drop out (out of 80) the first year, none the second year. If you fail a class you have to retake it or remediate the class, or something like that. Not a big deal from what I understand.

grtuck

 

[Dr Hope]

My class (graduate in 2006) had 1 drop out (out of 80) the first year, none the second year. If you fail a class you have to retake it or remediate the class, or something like that. Not a big deal from what I understand.

grtuck

Thanks grtuck.....which school are you in ?

 

[Dr Hope]

Hey guys...come on help us....and provide feedback about your schools so the new applicants can make the correct decisions. Thanks.

 

[grtuck]

Thanks grtuck.....which school are you in ?

University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

grtuck

 

[nycdds]

Hey guys...come on help us....and provide feedback about your schools so the new applicants can make the correct decisions. Thanks.

columbia class of 2006:

75 in the class. no dropouts or flunkouts. in the first year, one person failed 2 or 3 classes and was given 2 options: option #1: take one-shot makeup exams over the summer. option #2: repeat those 2 or 3 classes and join the class of 2007. with either option, it was the final chance. no third chances. pass and advance into the 2nd year. fail and flunk out. the person chose #2 and is now on track with the class of 2007.

don't know yet about the 2nd year. doubt anyone failed out or had to repeat. several people failed several exams in micro, path, pharm, and they just had to repeat those exams.

 

[Dr Hope]

Will like to get feedback from schools like Temple, Boston, Tufts, Pittsburgh, Indiana, Meharry, Howard, Tennesse, Marquette, Detroit Mercy, etc. All these schools have admission stats similar to or lower than NYU and their drop out info will help new applicants compare if something unusual is going on at NYU . NYU seems to kickout good number of students each after first and second years.

 

[Dentin068]

Will like to get feedback from schools like Temple, Boston, Tufts, Pittsburgh, Indiana, Meharry, Howard, Tennesse, Marquette, Detroit Mercy, etc. All these schools have admission stats similar to or lower than NYU and their drop out info will help new applicants compare if something unusual is going on at NYU . NYU seems to kickout good number of students each after first and second years.

No matter where you go, if you dont study - you will be dropped.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

At Temple, we were explained at orientation that you gotta do something very serious to get kicked out...if you cheat you get a slap on the wrist...cheat a second time, you have to meet with a committee....if it becomes a habit, then possible expulsion....i think our assistant dean said that she hasnt kicked anyone out in 15 years....Ill try and get exact stats for ya....

however, we do have a couple of students who are repeating first year...i know one girl who sits beside me in restorative clinic is repeating due to personal problems, not academic. It was laid out pretty simple that Temple wants all 125 students in our class to graduate no matter what....if it takes 5, 6, 10 years, then so be it, but unless you do something terrible, you wont be kicked out....I think kicking someone out with a huge debt is a terrible thing to do.

 

[toothcaries]

i dont know the exact details..

..but at osu, if u trip up along the way...they put u in a 5 year "flex program".

 

[toothcaries]

At Temple, we were explained at orientation that you gotta do something very serious to get kicked out...if you cheat you get a slap on the wrist...cheat a second time, you have to meet with a committee....if it becomes a habit, then possible expulsion....i think our assistant dean said that she hasnt kicked anyone out in 15 years....Ill try and get exact stats for ya....

however, we do have a couple of students who are repeating first year...i know one girl who sits beside me in restorative clinic is repeating due to personal problems, not academic. It was laid out pretty simple that Temple wants all 125 students in our class to graduate no matter what....if it takes 5, 6, 10 years, then so be it, but unless you do something terrible, you wont be kicked out....I think kicking someone out with a huge debt is a terrible thing to do.

congrats on the presidency.

 

[Dr Hope]

No matter where you go, if you dont study - you will be dropped.

We all know that if you don't study, you will not succeed. However, generally students who make it this far are not exactly dummies. If drop out/ kick out is abnormally high at one school as compared to others ....there seems to be a problem there. Rather than staying in denial, if the problem is recogonized by the students.....they can do some thing about it .....believe me they can.
Also, the policy of kicking students out is very harsh....as Dr Badvibes pointed out ... it is terrible thing to kick students out with huge debt. Besides the huge debt,the career of student is also finished...that is cruel. Other schools give chance to repeat and improve performance. It will take longer but the student will have a degree and career at the end. NYU should change their policy and follow what the other schools do.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

congrats on the presidency.

Cheers!

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

We all know that if you don't study, you will not succeed. However, generally students who make it this far are not exactly dummies. If drop out/ kick out is abnormally high at one school as compared to others ....there seems to be a problem there. Rather than staying in denial, if the problem is recogonized by the students.....they can do some thing about it .....believe me they can.
Also, the policy of kicking students out is very harsh....as Dr Badvibes pointed out ... it is terrible thing to kick students out with huge debt. Besides the huge debt,the career of student is also finished...that is cruel. Other schools give chance to repeat and improve performance. It will take longer but the student will have a degree and career at the end. NYU should change their policy and follow what the other schools do.

agreed...

 

[Zurik5]

At Temple, we were explained at orientation that you gotta do something very serious to get kicked out...if you cheat you get a slap on the wrist...cheat a second time, you have to meet with a committee....if it becomes a habit, then possible expulsion....i think our assistant dean said that she hasnt kicked anyone out in 15 years....Ill try and get exact stats for ya....

however, we do have a couple of students who are repeating first year...i know one girl who sits beside me in restorative clinic is repeating due to personal problems, not academic. It was laid out pretty simple that Temple wants all 125 students in our class to graduate no matter what....if it takes 5, 6, 10 years, then so be it, but unless you do something terrible, you wont be kicked out....I think kicking someone out with a huge debt is a terrible thing to do.

I agree, I?m not sure what the rate is like at our school, I?m sure it?s low. I have classmates who apparently don?t think kicking someone out of school is a very big deal, though. Cheating sucks, but how many of you saw it at your undergrad, and never said a thing . Maybe it?s just me? but if dental school professors are anything like biological science professors, then they know what it?s like.

 

[marshall]

At Penn I would walk by these few kids (2-3) who failed the pathology course and were retaking it over the summer (auto-tutorial with periodic exams). If they failed it again they would have to join the class below them. I research with the professor that co-teaches the path course and she says students flunk every year but are always given the opportunity to remedy and move on...

I also know that students leave all the time (already lost 2 for 2007 this summer I hear) because of family reasons such as having a baby or needing to move and transfer dental schools.

 

[Midoc]

At UDM it seems that very few people are kicked out. In my class we have had 3 people have to repeat a year, we gained 4 people from the previous year, we've had no one quit and we've had one person kicked out (I'm not sure if this is 100% yet but if so this person was removed after the first semester of third year).

 

[dentite001]

If its private, the saying in business is that the customer is always right. NYU has a bad reputation now among applicants. From a business perspective, if they lose a customer in the first year, they develop a negative reputation and lose out on another guaranteed 3 years of business. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
That being said, pride often goes before a fall. Study and respect the road to dentistry. If your that big of an dingus, you are just a number, and there definately will be someone out there wanting to take your place.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

If its private, the saying in business is that the customer is always right. NYU has a bad reputation now among applicants. From a business perspective, if they lose a customer in the first year, they develop a negative reputation and lose out on another guaranteed 3 years of business. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
That being said, pride often goes before a fall. Study and respect the road to dentistry. If your that big of an dingus, you are just a number, and there definately will be someone out there wanting to take your place.

Rumour has it that NYU is so harsh because it needs to make room for its clinics because in 2nd year, international grads come in.....only a rumour though....but makes sense

 

[Dr Hope]

Thanks to you all. Although we have response only regarding few schools but it indicates that this kick out policy exists only at NYU. I wanted to go to NYU because of New York City but I am regretfully re-considering. Believe me I want to be in new york city rather than any other place next four years. I am an engineering major with limited coursework in bio-sciences and I am scared of NYU policies.

However, I am still amazed at how NYU students accept this. Admitted that students who failed a few subjects are at fault. But they should be asked to repeat the year like the other schools do....this is a penalty in itself. But this way a student's career is at least not finished.....with huge debt. It seems NYU students are not even aware of kickout policies at other dental schools and that's why don't protest. I understand students do not like to get in to trouble. But they could always send annonymous letters to NYU board or even press. If NYU board or press like New York Times or 60 Minutes get enough of these ...it will catch someone's attention and help change NYU policies for the better.

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

Thanks to you all. Although we have response only regarding few schools but it indicates that this kick out policy exists only at NYU. I wanted to go to NYU because of New York City but I am regretfully re-considering. Believe me I want to be in new york city rather than any other place next four years. I am an engineering major with limited coursework in bio-sciences and I am scared of NYU policies.

However, I am still amazed at how NYU students accept this. Admitted that students who failed a few subjects are at fault. But they should be asked to repeat the year like the other schools do....this is a penalty in itself. But this way a student's career is at least not finished.....with huge debt. It seems NYU students are not even aware of kickout policies at other dental schools and that's why don't protest. I understand students do not like to get in to trouble. But they could always send annonymous letters to NYU board or even press. If NYU board or press like New York Times or 60 Minutes get enough of these ...it will catch someone's attention and help change NYU policies for the better.

You do repeat the year. It all depends on how you fail. If you fail three or less you go to summer school and stay with your class.

Now, if you fail with three classes like: 65, 60, 68...you will go to summer school. If you fail 45, 60, 51...you will probably get booted because you probably can't handle the load.

If you mess up summer school then you repeat...hopefully you didn't mess that up bad.

I have yet to see a student that got kicked out that didn't deserve it

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

Rumour has it that NYU is so harsh because it needs to make room for its clinics because in 2nd year, international grads come in.....only a rumour though....but makes sense

Just that a rumor. The dean actual put this to rest. I hang out in the clinics and always see open chairs. Not once have I heard a student complain about not having enough chair time or patients.

Will post more on this in the up coming year

 

[Dr Hope]

Just that a rumor. The dean actual put this to rest. I hang out in the clinics and always see open chairs. Not once have I heard a student complain about not having enough chair time or patients.

Will post more on this in the up coming year

I admire you for being so loyal to NYU. You seem to be doing well in school and I wish you continued success.

 

[Tennisgirl]

Hi, I'm a first year at Penn. 2 people dropped out of our class, but I think 1 dropped out early enough during orientation week that they accepted someone... (this is completely rumor). Another person dropped out a week ago or so, but he had some personal problems. It seems that Penn does a lot to help their students out academically, from tutoring at various frats to hired tutors through each department.

 

[chocobo]

In my class (UCLA 2005), we had 88 entering students. And 1 dropped out after the 1st yr 1st quarter ended, apparently because he decided that dentistry was not for him. We have not lost anyone since. At UCLA, people don't get kicked out because of poor academic performance. If you fail a class, there's usually a makeup exam soon after. And if you fail the makeup exam, I think you usually retake the class the following year with the class below you. The student affairs staff try to offer as much help as they can (for example, hire an uppeclassman tutor for you) to make sure you pass if you are doing poorly. As far as cheating and such, there is a probation officer that you meet up with I think for disciplinary action - don't quite remember the policy too clearly, but it seemed fair.

 

[brianm74]

I am currently a 3rd year at NYU. It is indeed true, the school does kick people out for repeated poor performance. The weed out course is during the second year- Systems Pathology. NYU allows students who fail to remediate during the summer. Now, in the past, if you fail 1-2 remediation summer courses, you were allowed to retake the year failed - as long as your academic record was ok. If not, they boot you.
This year was a bit different for us, however. Since there is an abundance of now 2nd years, that allowed even less room for 3rd years to repeat 2nd year. So, NYU booted those who failed remediation. Is it fair? NO. You posted asking why we do not complain/confront the dean-- believe me, we have!
I don't want to sound like I do not like NYU- I really do. As with all schools, there are bearocratic issues. NYU is a large school and you have to be prepared and know that before beginning. Dental school is what you put into it. If you don't study, you will be kicked out. Bottom line- NYU is a good school and I feel like I am being properly prepared for my career as DDS.

 

[groundhog]

Is NYU truly unfair? I think maybe not. Seems like I remember YAH-e relating that he was bluntly informed that he would quickly be shown the door without remorse if the school took a chance on him and he failed to perform. That was when YAH-e was a member of the under 3.0 club. Now we know that he went to on NOVA, found his bearings and is gunning towards OMS.

 

[Dr Hope]

I am currently a 3rd year at NYU. It is indeed true, the school does kick people out for repeated poor performance. The weed out course is during the second year- Systems Pathology. NYU allows students who fail to remediate during the summer. Now, in the past, if you fail 1-2 remediation summer courses, you were allowed to retake the year failed - as long as your academic record was ok. If not, they boot you.
This year was a bit different for us, however. Since there is an abundance of now 2nd years, that allowed even less room for 3rd years to repeat 2nd year. So, NYU booted those who failed remediation. Is it fair? NO. You posted asking why we do not complain/confront the dean-- believe me, we have!
I don't want to sound like I do not like NYU- I really do. As with all schools, there are bearocratic issues. NYU is a large school and you have to be prepared and know that before beginning. Dental school is what you put into it. If you don't study, you will be kicked out. Bottom line- NYU is a good school and I feel like I am being properly prepared for my career as DDS.

You said that NYU is a good school and I do not think otherwise. What is in question is their policy of kicking out students. Just because there is abundance of 2nd year students, it does not mean that NYU replace any one not doing well. NYU ought to do the same that the other schools do i.e offer help to students performing poorly. Kicking out should be the last course of action after all else has failed. Just imagine you being kicked out after two years at NYU.....what are you going to do .....you apply for admission to graduate school in some other area....... you think you will have easy time getting in after you tell them you have been kicked out of a dental school due to poor academic performance ? Same goes if you look for a job. All this with a debt of $ 150k.

You may bring up that it is student's fault because he or she failed. And my answer is the same, why do students fail at NYU only and not at other schools...? NYU admission stats are similar to many schools like Temple, Boston , Tufts, Indiana etc etc and higher than those of Howard and Meharry. Why are the students not kicked out at these other schools ?

I think NYU dental schools needs to understand the situation they put a student in when they kickout someone. They need to work with students rather than kicking them out....ie they need to do the same that the other dental and medical schools do.

And if the students have protested and they have not been heard ...they should take the matter to NYU board. Write annonymous letters to the NYU board or to newspapers to get attention and results. One or two letters will not catch any attention but 50 will.

 

[groundhog]

You're barking up the wrong tree with me Dr Hope. I suspect NYU does a decent job of letting folks know what they are in for if they take the school up on an offer of acceptance. I doubt that you could tell me that any US graduate who entered NYU with a GPA of 3.4> and DAT 20> as a D1 did not have other options (so the choice was theirs). As for those who get in with low stats, let's be blunt. NYU offers a second chance to numerous students who did not have their acts together as undergrads for various reasons. Once in dental school it is time to perform (hence the word professional school) It is the same situation as being drafted by a professional sports team vs getting a college sports scholarship. You'll retain the sports scholarship as long as you stay in school regardless of your performance as an athlete. Not so as a drafted professional...if you don't perform in training camp you are out. If folks are not ready to do what it takes to succeed in dental school (for whatever reason) then they should do something else until they have their game together...work a few more years, go to grad school, enter the military etc.

 

[Dr Hope]

You're barking up the wrong tree with me Dr Hope. I suspect NYU does a decent job of letting folks know what they are in for if they take the school up on an offer of acceptance. I doubt that you could tell me that any US graduate who entered NYU with a GPA of 3.4> and DAT 20> as a D1 did not have other options (so the choice was theirs). As for those who get in with low stats, let's be blunt. NYU offers a second chance to numerous students who did not have their acts together as undergrads for various reasons. Once in dental school it is time to perform (hence the word professional school) It is the same situation as being drafted by a professional sports team vs getting a college sports scholarship. You'll retain the sports scholarship as long as you stay in school regardless of your performance as an athlete. Not so as a drafted professional...if you don't perform in training camp you are out. If folks are not ready to do what it takes to succeed in dental school (for whatever reason) then they should do something else until they have their game together...work a few more years, go to grad school, enter the military etc.

Champion , you missed the point. What I said was that it should be a fair game. NYU should do for its students what other schools do for theirs. Read some responses above from students from other schools .
And NYU does not do any favor to anyone by offering admission. They pick the best out of the pool of applications they receive.

And let me assure you that if these NYU policies continue, their admission stats will decline further.......students will look to other schools which do not threaten to kick students out but rather work with students.

 

[PERFECT3435]

ok i am not sure about the dropout/fail rate at IUSD, but i think that we had ZERO people failing from class of 2007.

my class DS2008 is made of 101 people. so far, there are 2 people that i know of that have been asked to remediate 2 courses. one of the courses is anatomy which i totally understand. it was very intense and we went at it very fast. the other class was DENTAL HISTORY. now i think i slept throughout that class and we had one exam. i honestly studied 3 hrs for that class and got a 96 on the exam and i am not even smart. lol
what amazes me is how could people fail this course. obviously, people didn't know study and so had to repeat or make up for the class. bottom line, you gotta study and do whatever it takes to succeed. WE HAVE COME TOO FAR TO FAIL NOW. with that said, i am really keeping my fingers crossed for my molecular cell bio class. its brutal.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Here's my take on it:

Schools have an ETHICAL responsibility to really inspect applicants. Part of this involves GPA and DAT scores, and part of it involves essays and interviews.

It goes to the core of the issue that failing classes/getting kicked out of dental school for academic reasons can have serious ramifications. The least of these can be loan repayment without a career option in the future.

So in part, when schools deny students, I think they are doing the student a favor (at least in some situations). Obviously this would be in an ideal application situation, and we know that admissions is politicized and that applicants put on facades at times, etc.

So, I'd say that schools could save the students some heartache simply by weeding them out in the application process. They don't waste time in school only to be booted later on. The flip side to that is that some students who have poor grades or DAT scores can be really excellent dentists. So, in a way, it almost seems like NYU is giving some of those students a chance.

 

[texas_dds]

60 minutes - pleease!

you would pass w/flying colors if you put as much effort into studying as you are into worrying about being hypothetically kicked out of some school. every single person i have seen being asked to leave my school (san antonio) couldn't hack it for one reason or the other. its not all that random, you earn what you get. bust your butt like everyone else and all will be fine.

i think my school has a rule that you have to graduate w/in 5 years no matter what. so you can only repeat one year. like others, failure of a course USUALLY results in 1)a summer remediation which you have to pass or you are out OR 2)repeat the whole year OR 3)please leave
which of those three you get depends on the circumstance. but its always earned i promise. dont worry be happy!

 

[trypmo]

[....]i think my school has a rule that you have to graduate w/in 5 years no matter what. so you can only repeat one year. like others, failure of a course USUALLY results in 1)a summer remediation which you have to pass or you are out OR 2)repeat the whole year OR 3)please leave
which of those three you get depends on the circumstance. but its always earned i promise. dont worry be happy!

Actually, that would be kindof a relief to know that there's an upper limit on how long youcan be in dental school. I knew of one guy who just graduated with his Ph.D. from our department who was a grad student for twelve years. (The average for getting a Ph.D. in my discipline is around 5 & 1/2 years.) 😱

 

[tabbycattia]

Thanks to you all. Although we have response only regarding few schools but it indicates that this kick out policy exists only at NYU. I wanted to go to NYU because of New York City but I am regretfully re-considering. Believe me I want to be in new york city rather than any other place next four years. I am an engineering major with limited coursework in bio-sciences and I am scared of NYU policies.

NYU has strong acceptance/dropout policies even for undergraduate studies, as many of my friends have told me. I have to tell you, there are many gorgeous areas in the country that are cheaper than NYU and areas around it are cheaper to live in then NYC. Don't be so down about having 2nd thoughts about NYU, I'm sure you'll enjoy the plenty of other schools that are out there. But that is coming from a girl who was born and raised near NYC her whole life 😉

 

[Dr Hope]

Here's my take on it:

Schools have an ETHICAL responsibility to really inspect applicants. Part of this involves GPA and DAT scores, and part of it involves essays and interviews.

It goes to the core of the issue that failing classes/getting kicked out of dental school for academic reasons can have serious ramifications. The least of these can be loan repayment without a career option in the future.

So in part, when schools deny students, I think they are doing the student a favor (at least in some situations). Obviously this would be in an ideal application situation, and we know that admissions is politicized and that applicants put on facades at times, etc.

So, I'd say that schools could save the students some heartache simply by weeding them out in the application process. They don't waste time in school only to be booted later on. The flip side to that is that some students who have poor grades or DAT scores can be really excellent dentists. So, in a way, it almost seems like NYU is giving some of those students a chance.

I agree with everything you have said. But I want to add that in addition to responsibility regarding admission, University also has to assume the responsibility to assist students to pull through....similar to other dental schools. NYU admission stats are not the lowest. If the students at Boston, Tuft, Howard, Meharry etc make it ....why don't NYU students ? NYU has a large class ...do they have proportionally large staff ? They need to examine their staff , method of instruction and support for the students. I can understand expulsion in extreme case but not as routine.

 

[Balki]

From what I know COlumbia drop out rates are minimal. One student from class of 2008 left (for personal reasons) in the middle of the second week. I don't believe anyone left from the the class of 2007 during the later part of the course, or during junior or senior years.
We too have many remidiation steps, I wouldn't know we have our first test on Monday, wish me luck. 😀

And to the rest of Columbia SDOS community - our class rocks!


Stranger again

 

[toothcaries]

applicants to nyu should make sure u question your interviewers about the poor retention of students...

..and for those that decide not to attend nyu, make sure u tell the adcoms that their less than stellar retention rates scared you away...

that said,
i enjoyed my interview at nyu (and nyc)...and would have loved to attend that program(and live in nyc).

 

[Dr Hope]

applicants to nyu should make sure u question your interviewers about the poor retention of students...

..and for those that decide not to attend nyu, make sure u tell the adcoms that their less than stellar retention rates scared you away...

that said,
i enjoyed my interview at nyu (and nyc)...and would have loved to attend that program(and live in nyc).

I don't know if it will be wise to ask about retention rates at the time of interview but I agree with second part....let the school know that you are turning the school down because of retention policies.