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I might shake the table with this one, but why are most pre dents and dental students so incompetent when it comes to the pricing of dental school and basic personal finance? I feel like it isn’t talked about enough and it’s getting out of hand. I think it’s disgusting how these schools can get away with charging so much. Schools are raising their prices faster than inflation and they try to justify this by saying they lost state funding but even with the increase of state funding the past years they still continue to increase prices. Also the interest rate on loans are ridiculous considering the fact that the banks only pays a tiny tiny tiny interest while giving us 7-8% interest rates. I can go on and on with numbers but it will still go over most people’s heads. Why would people even think to go to places like USC or NYU where you’ll come out with 600k in debt (when interest is accounted for). How is that even possible!!! You will literally drown in that debt.
I feel so hopeless because I really love dentistry and I cant really see myself doing anything else, but where do I draw the line. I feel so alone because no one seems to care until it’s too late. Pre-dents are so worried about getting into school that they don’t even realized the financial trap they are falling in. Some might comment: just doing military or NHSC but those are not guaranteed and it’s not addressing the problem thats causing the debt. I’ve been a little stressed over this and I wanted to know how you guys justify this?
 
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HKSZYU

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Yep, I think this is becoming an increasingly common sentiment. There are very few cases where it makes sense to go to a school like USC or NYU, and the fact that these schools charge this much is predatory in my personal opinion.

On a systematic level, I don't see it getting better until the student loan bubble bursts or until there are limits put on graduate student loan borrowing.

When I applied, I only applied to inexpensive local schools, and I had a pre-determined debt ceiling that I wasn't going to go above, since above that ceiling, dentistry no longer made sense for my financial goals.
 
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B0wMNj

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A lot of dental students at expensive schools come from wealthy backgrounds, where the parents will contribute towards a significant portion of their tuition, this helps a lot. Financially, becoming a dentist right now is not smart, if you like it and can't see yourself doing anything else then go for it. You also will probably not fully understand what dentistry entails until you get into dental school and even then you'll have the faintest of an idea.

Def not going to be financially rewarding if your going all in with the loans though.
 
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A_Mdent

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Dental schools have abused the blank student loan check from the feds because there is an endless supply of applicants. Government repayment programs (IBR, PAYE, etc) are the only thing keeping this going. People smart enough getting into dental school should be able to understand basic math when it comes to interest and repayment so I don't be the "we didn't know" BS.

Eventually we will hear more stories of unsuccessful dentist due recession, possible changes to repayment programs, possible socialized dentistry, and pre dents will realize the current investment isn't worth it, then schools will close and the price will go down, IDK when this will happen, my guess is 10 years +/- a couple years.
 
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desertrat12

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I feel so hopeless because I really love dentistry and I cant really see myself doing anything else, but where do I draw the line.

Why do you say this? Honest question. What about dentistry makes you feel like it is THE thing for you?

Just as you think Pre Dents don’t focus on tuition enough, I think Pre Dents romanticize dentistry. There are a few who do love it, but in my class most would answer that they got in it for the lifestyle they thought it would afford them. Theoretically talking about the debt is one thing, but seeing it on your balance sheet is something totally different. I’m lucky to have less than half the debt you are discussing, but at your level of financial aptitude you better be day dreaming about fixing broken temporaries otherwise I imagine you’ll be fairly disappointed with your choice of career when you experience dentistry first hand at a 600k price.

There was a time when I couldn’t imagine doing anything other than snowmobiling for a living, but then I realized how impractical that was. I was 10 yrs old. Broke my heart. Dentistry may have reached the level of impracticality for many.

One other thought, if someone gave 600k in cash would you instantly give it all for dental school? Or would you invest wisely, get another good paying job in tech/business/whatever and save wisely and be a millionaire before you would even be out of debt as a dentist?

At 600k I wouldn’t do this, even with the enjoyment I get out of it.
 
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MG14

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I might shake the table with this one, but why are most pre dents and dental students so incompetent when it comes to the pricing of dental school and basic personal finance? I feel like it isn’t talked about enough and it’s getting out of hand. I think it’s disgusting how these schools can get away with charging so much. Schools are raising their prices faster than inflation and they try to justify this by saying they lost state funding but even with the increase of state funding the past years they still continue to increase prices. Also the interest rate on loans are ridiculous considering the fact that the banks only pays a tiny tiny tiny interest while giving us 7-8% interest rates. I can go on and on with numbers but it will still go over most people’s heads. Why would people even think to go to places like USC or NYU where you’ll come out with 600k in debt (when interest is accounted for). How is that even possible!!! You will literally drown in that debt.
I feel so hopeless because I really love dentistry and I cant really see myself doing anything else, but where do I draw the line. I feel so alone because no one seems to care until it’s too late. Pre-dents are so worried about getting into school that they don’t even realized the financial trap they are falling in. Some might comment: just doing military or NHSC but those are not guaranteed and it’s not addressing the problem thats causing the debt. I’ve been a little stressed over this and I wanted to know how you guys justify this?

Because to poor college students anything above $10-20k is something they’ve never seen. You reach 6 figures, and forget it. At that point, it’s all just numbers:lol:
 
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allantois

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Their deans should be held accountable when and if the students don’t repay their loans
 
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allantois

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Because to poor college students anything above $10-20k is something they’ve never seen. You reach 6 figures, and forget it. At that point, it’s all just numbers:lol:

They’ll go back to thinking in real numbers when their patients will try to negotiate over $60 cleaning.
 
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lwergod

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some kind of bubble is definitely inevitable. It doesn't matter if student loans are unsecured debt. All that matters is that

1. student loans are now almost 10% of our total GDP and it continues to increase

2. The effects of PLSF and the tax bomb will start to kick in high gear in the next decade or so. This will cause the federal government and banks to start hemorrhaging money.

3. If no bubble bursts, then that could be even worse. At least after a bubble, the market experiences a correction eventually followed by recovery. The student loan crisis could act more as a massive depressor to our economy with the only ones getting richer being the schools.
 
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ThirdMolarz

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Yeah, some have mentioned it, but once/if you go to dental school, you'll realize not everyone is paying for dental school with loans
 
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Yeah, some have mentioned it, but once/if you go to dental school, you'll realize not everyone is paying for dental school with loans

While true, majority are paying with loans. The average dental school debt is rising close to 300k.


Based on this report, currently 17% of students graduate with no debt, and 19% graduate with 200k or less. This also doesn't include residency costs for anyone that specializes (or the accrued interest that goes along with it)

Overall, only 36% of graduates have a reasonable amount of debt (0-200k). ~40% have more than 300k. The numbers for the expensive private schools will lilely be much worse than this.
 
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ThirdMolarz

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While true, majority are paying with loans. The average dental school debt is rising close to 300k.


Based on this report, currently 17% of students graduate with no debt, and 19% graduate with 200k or less. This also doesn't include residency costs for anyone that specializes (or the accrued interest that goes along with it)

Overall, only 36% of graduates have a reasonable amount of debt (0-200k). ~40% have more than 300k. The numbers for the expensive private schools will lilely be much worse than this.
Yup, I agree. The majority is but not everyone
 

P7898

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Everyone that goes to a private school and pays over $400k+ for dental School will struggle BIG TIME. I am sorry just don't go into dentistry if you have to pay this. Just as simple as that. Go another route. If you can go to dental school for less than $250k, financially speaking, it will pay off quicker and you will be able to invest more money in the stock market earlier than trying to pay down debt.
 
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Molar Whisperer

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I might shake the table with this one, but why are most pre dents and dental students so incompetent when it comes to the pricing of dental school and basic personal finance? I feel like it isn’t talked about enough and it’s getting out of hand. I think it’s disgusting how these schools can get away with charging so much. Schools are raising their prices faster than inflation and they try to justify this by saying they lost state funding but even with the increase of state funding the past years they still continue to increase prices. Also the interest rate on loans are ridiculous considering the fact that the banks only pays a tiny tiny tiny interest while giving us 7-8% interest rates. I can go on and on with numbers but it will still go over most people’s heads. Why would people even think to go to places like USC or NYU where you’ll come out with 600k in debt (when interest is accounted for). How is that even possible!!! You will literally drown in that debt.
I feel so hopeless because I really love dentistry and I cant really see myself doing anything else, but where do I draw the line. I feel so alone because no one seems to care until it’s too late. Pre-dents are so worried about getting into school that they don’t even realized the financial trap they are falling in. Some might comment: just doing military or NHSC but those are not guaranteed and it’s not addressing the problem thats causing the debt. I’ve been a little stressed over this and I wanted to know how you guys justify this?

Save the 600k or 1 mil or whatever Dental School Sharks want and put it into commercial property and rent to dentists preferably the ones you don't like. You get a lot of satisfaction watching them struggle to pay your rent, your money is working for you at a big tax advantage with expected gains, while still be involved with dentistry...win win win!
 
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P7898

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Save the 600k or 1 mil or whatever Dental School Sharks want and put it into commercial property and rent to dentists preferably the ones you don't like. You get a lot of satisfaction watching them struggle to pay your rent, your money is working for you at a big tax advantage with expected gains, while still be involved with dentistry...win win win!

Lol. Or get a military scholarship.
 
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DocMonOMFS

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While true, majority are paying with loans. The average dental school debt is rising close to 300k.


Based on this report, currently 17% of students graduate with no debt, and 19% graduate with 200k or less. This also doesn't include residency costs for anyone that specializes (or the accrued interest that goes along with it)

Overall, only 36% of graduates have a reasonable amount of debt (0-200k). ~40% have more than 300k. The numbers for the expensive private schools will lilely be much worse than this.

Agreed my friend. Also, this should encourage you to get into your state school if at all possible, or attend a school where you can apply for instate tuition after a year, there are some schools out there. It is expensive. Gotta do everything you can to minimize the debt.
 
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Dental schools are just taking advantage of a good financial situation for them. Cant really blame them.

It's the naive predents who are desperate to get into dentistry who are the real problem.

The dental schools probably just cant believe their luck that there are a surplus of stupid people willing to pay 500k to be a dentist.

They are just making hay while the sun shines
 
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fermi555

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Dental schools are just taking advantage of a good financial situation for them. Cant really blame them.
I can blame them, because what they're doing is completely immoral.
 
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I can blame them, because what they're doing is completely immoral.
Why?
They're not lying or being deceptive. Before you start dental school they tell you how much it costs (ie it's on their website), and then you're voluntarily accepting that offer.
 
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fermi555

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Why?
They're not lying or being deceptive. Before you start dental school they tell you how much it costs (ie it's on their website), and then you're voluntarily accepting that offer.
Because they're taking advantage of financially illiterate children with no work or financial experience who have no business taking out half a million dollar in loans for anything. Although the government also deserves blame for giving out these loans guaranteed.
 
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Because they're taking advantage of financially illiterate children with no work or financial experience who have no business taking out half a million dollar in loans for anything. Although the government also deserves blame for giving out these loans guaranteed.
Yes but the blame should be on the financially illiterate child.
It's like buying a $10,000 TV on a small monthly payment plan and realizing after a few years that it's a ****ty deal.
Would you blame the store or blame the naive consumer?
This is the real world. If you voluntarily sign up for something theres no one to blame but yourself
 

fermi555

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Yes but the blame should be on the financially illiterate child.
It's like buying a $10,000 TV on a small monthly payment plan and realizing after a few years that it's a ****ty deal.
Would you blame the store or blame the naive consumer?
This is the real world. If you voluntarily sign up for something theres no one to blame but yourself
If you knowingly give a financially illiterate 18 year old with no financial knowledge a $10,000 TV knowing they cannot afford it, you are absolutely in part to blame. You're knowingly financially hurting someone for your own direct benefit. That is immoral.
 

endodonia

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Because they're taking advantage of financially illiterate children with no work or financial experience who have no business taking out half a million dollar in loans for anything. Although the government also deserves blame for giving out these loans guaranteed.

The problem, In my opinion, seems to be more with society as a whole than the dental schools in particular. I've read everything from how parents, friends, family, etc etc mislead people to take on an enormous debt load to get a DDS, DMD, DO, MD, JD, DVM, PharmD, MBA, insert undergrad degree not used to make money here:_________. It is truly amazing how many other peoples fault it is. I'll throw some people a bone: the insurance industry is absolutely ruthless and immoral. I can agree there. But then there is the people who love to **** on dave ramseys advice. IF more people listened to this guy whos advice "only applies to 'poor' people" these schools wouldn't even exist.

go to cheap schools. even for high school. I hear people complaining all the time about paying for private school. maybe dont go to a private school? But "the education is so much better!" really? is that what they tell you when they give you the bill? also people too good to go to a junior college annoy me. I know plenty of people who did 2 years of community college, transferred in to a 4 year public school who have done very well in life.

*statements using always and never are relative. I'd recommend going to an expensive private school to get a JD or MBA from Harvard, Stanford, Etc...
 
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fermi555

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It is truly amazing how many other peoples fault it is
Agreed. Culture, high school educators, universities, the government, etc. all deserve blame for this mess. The student loan debt in this country is larger than the entire GDP of Russia. This is clearly an issue that goes beyond naive students.
 
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yappy

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The problem, In my opinion, seems to be more with society as a whole than the dental schools in particular. I've read everything from how parents, friends, family, etc etc mislead people to take on an enormous debt load to get a DDS, DMD, DO, MD, JD, DVM, PharmD, MBA, insert undergrad degree not used to make money here:_________. It is truly amazing how many other peoples fault it is. I'll throw some people a bone: the insurance industry is absolutely ruthless and immoral. I can agree there. But then there is the people who love to **** on dave ramseys advice. IF more people listened to this guy whos advice "only applies to 'poor' people" these schools wouldn't even exist.

go to cheap schools. even for high school. I hear people complaining all the time about paying for private school. maybe dont go to a private school? But "the education is so much better!" really? is that what they tell you when they give you the bill? also people too good to go to a junior college annoy me. I know plenty of people who did 2 years of community college, transferred in to a 4 year public school who have done very well in life.

*statements using always and never are relative. I'd recommend going to an expensive private school to get a JD or MBA from Harvard, Stanford, Etc...

But how do we account for the fact that many of these schools' tuition are outpacing inflation and that public schools are also extremely expensive? Students are being fleeced for some reason and it doesn't have to be that way. This situation is unprecedented and not inline with how dental schools, or any higher learning, has operated in the past. That is to say, leadership in higher education are acting as horrible stewards of something that they inherited from previous generations.
 
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I think having more discussions about the downsides of dentistry on forums like these is beneficial. I know personally, it opened my eyes to a lot of the bad things about dentistry. Most websites out there paint dentistry like a fantasy career. #1 career in the USA and all that crap. So it's important to give the other perspective as well.

I think dentists also have to hold themselves responsible and educate pre-dents. Every pre-dent has to shadow, so that is a perfect time to tell them about the realities of dentistry. I don't mean discourage them from applying, but show them behind the scenes about how stressful running a dental business is, the increasing competition/corps, declining reimbursements.

Lastly parents need to get their heads out of their butts as well. Being a doctor isn't a fast track to becoming rich. If parents are pushing their kids to become doctors, they need to look at the situation financially themselves. No 20 year old is going to be completely financially proficient, but you hope their parents know enough about debt and the burdens it carries. I don't understand why a parent cannot look at the 400k+ price tag, and see that their kids will be drowning in debt for almost a decade after completing dental school. Unless the rents are paying, this is completely irresponsible on their part.
 
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Lastly parents need to get their heads out of their butts as well. Being a doctor isn't a fast track to becoming rich. If parents are pushing their kids to become doctors, they need to look at the situation financially themselves. No 20 year old is going to be completely financially proficient, but you hope their parents know enough about debt and the burdens it carries. I don't understand why a parent cannot look at the 400k+ price tag, and see that their kids will be drowning in debt for almost a decade after completing dental school. Unless the rents are paying, this is completely irresponsible on their part.
The problem is many kids don’t want to listen to their parents. As soon as they become 18 yo, they want to move out the house as far from their parents as possible because they get tired of being told what to do. They think they are smarter than their parents. They don’t want to go to a lowly college near their house because all of their smart HS classmates get accepted to big name out-of-state colleges like Stanford, Duke, Notre Dame, Brown etc.

ToothJockey, do you currently live with your parents? If the answer is no, how often do you call home to seek advice from your parents? How about create a poll to find out how many predents on this forum currently live with their parents to save money?
 
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Most parents without a dental background recommend their kids to go to a prestigious school rather than an affordable one if they plan on becoming a dentist.
That’s true. But most kids, especially the ones who were born and raised here, don’t usually follow what their parents want them to become. Kids don’t like to be pressured to choose a career that they don’t like. Most of them apply because they really want to become a dentist or doctor not because they want to please their parents.
 
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MG14

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Dental schools are just taking advantage of a good financial situation for them. Cant really blame them.

It's the naive predents who are desperate to get into dentistry who are the real problem.

The dental schools probably just cant believe their luck that there are a surplus of stupid people willing to pay 500k to be a dentist.

They are just making hay while the sun shines

Sure hope your not a dentist ever working in an area near me. Sounds like your ethical compass needs to be recalibrated.

One of the very principles of ethics is, just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. So yes, what schools are doing is completely immoral. It’s greed. Sure, naive dental students are partly accountable, and that should be focused on too. But it still wrong on the schools part.
Let’s use a similar example, say your grandma willingly sends that stranger who keeps calling her the $2,000 they want for her “extended car warranty”. She chose to do it. Are we saying, “well the scammer is just taking advantage of a good financial situation for them. Can’t really blame them... It’s the naive senior citizens who are the real problem”? No we’re not. Because that’s fraud and the general population would agree it’s wrong.

Now, you could argue, “She paid for a bogus service she didn’t receive. Dental school you get the degree/service you pay for.” Which is correct. But then you enter whats called ‘price gouging.’ Google it. Either way, it’s unethical. So, yeah, we can blame dental schools.

Now I whole heartedly agree pre dents should be more aware. Basic economic and financial education would go a long way. But still doesn’t change the fact that dental schools are taking advantage of students and greed is becoming the priority.
 
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Sure hope your not a dentist ever working in an area near me. Sounds like your ethical compass needs to be recalibrated.

One of the very principles of ethics is, just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. So yes, what schools are doing is completely immoral. It’s greed. Sure, naive dental students are partly accountable, and that should be focused on too. But it still wrong on the schools part.
Let’s use a similar example, say your grandma willingly sends that stranger who keeps calling her the $2,000 they want for her “extended car warranty”. She chose to do it. Are we saying, “well the scammer is just taking advantage of a good financial situation for them. Can’t really blame them... It’s the naive senior citizens who are the real problem”? No we’re not. Because that’s fraud and the general population would agree it’s wrong.

Now, you could argue, “She paid for a bogus service she didn’t receive. Dental school you get the degree/service you pay for.” Which is correct. But then you enter whats called ‘price gouging.’ Google it. Either way, it’s unethical. So, yeah, we can blame dental schools.

Now I whole heartedly agree pre dents should be more aware. Basic economic and financial education would go a long way. But still doesn’t change the fact that dental schools are taking advantage of students and greed is becoming the priority.
Your scenario is totally irrelevant imo.

You're scenario is a scam. It is illegal. Nothing about expensive dental tuition is illegal.

Dont get me wrong - I think the dental schools are doing terrible things with what they charge. They are greedy - I totally agree. But I would also argue that they arent really controlling the price of tuition - the market is - they are also reacting to the market - they are increasing their prices, there is still a huge demand for it, so they keep increasing their prices at like 5% a year. And that effect is having a big effect over time.

Unethical? That's a stretch. They are a business, selling a degree giving access to a high paying job. People still have the option of being a dentist in a really remote area and killing it. If it was 500k for an arts degree then yes, I believe you could say its unethical. I think at this stage they are still in the realm of an overpriced product - which is overpriced due to high demand.
 
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yappy

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Your scenario is totally irrelevant imo.

You're scenario is a scam. It is illegal. Nothing about expensive dental tuition is illegal.

Dont get me wrong - I think the dental schools are doing terrible things with what they charge. They are greedy - I totally agree. But I would also argue that they arent really controlling the price of tuition - the market is - they are also reacting to the market - they are increasing their prices, there is still a huge demand for it, so they keep increasing their prices at like 5% a year. And that effect is having a big effect over time.

Unethical? That's a stretch. They are a business, selling a degree giving access to a high paying job. People still have the option of being a dentist in a really remote area and killing it. If it was 500k for an arts degree then yes, I believe you could say its unethical. I think at this stage they are still in the realm of an overpriced product - which is overpriced due to high demand.

Most dental schools, public colleges, are non-profits that are not a traditional "business". They're heavily subsidized by tax payers and most of the loans students have now-a-days are public loans. You don't seem to get it as you keep defaulting to these laissez-faire talking points like we're talking about securities or tech.
 
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MG14

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You're scenario is a scam. It is illegal. Nothing about expensive dental tuition is illegal.

So laws determine what’s ethical huh?

Cheating on a spouse or partner is legal. Slavery, and segregation was legal.
Lying to a friend or family member is legal.

While you’re in quarantine, ethics might be something you should look into or brush up on.
 
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Ivy.ch

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Why?
They're not lying or being deceptive. Before you start dental school they tell you how much it costs (ie it's on their website), and then you're voluntarily accepting that offer.

Not lying, but I would say they are being deceptive. I interviewed 4 years ago, and even then, it was sickening to see the expensive schools have their interview students touting things like "No one worries about debt here, our graduates are always fine", "You get what you pay for", "If the debt was that bad, people wouldn't come here", "It's just part of the journey". But yes, ultimately, this falls on the people signing their name on the dotted line.

One thing I see schools touting is "Our average student debt is X". But what they fail to mention is 1) a big minority of students are graduating with a debt of $0.00. So the average student who is taking 100% loans looks at that number and thinks "Oh, that's not too bad" and 2) The number is 4 years of tuition increases behind the current situation, and another 4 years away from their eventual graduate year.
 
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Cold Front

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FWIW. The dental school (BU) I graduated from just increased their 2020-2021 tuition and fees form $118k to $123k/yr. That’s a 4.5% increase. To graduate from that school is now $600k+ including interest.

I graduated exactly 10 yrs ago next week from the same program with $280k in loans, and that was the limit I could borrow back then.

So in the span of 10 years, the cost more than doubled. If tuition goes up 4-5% again each year from here, that’s $50k/yr more debt with interest. Pushing the program to $1M+ in cost in 6-7 yrs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Daurang

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There's a current thread in dentaltown where dentist hang out...'aside from corona-would you chose dentist again?'' Most said 'No.'
 
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allantois

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Hopefully the good thing that will come out of this is we will see a bunch of colleges implode
 
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I understand what @Anondds87 is saying. A business opportunity, but again ..... it's a one sided opportunity that lines the pockets of a few. The issue is that these so-called business opportunities that take advantage of the il-informed, naive students will cause futures issues to more than just those naive students. I equate this to the predatory lending in 2006- forward. Hard working people who probably could afford a smaller house, but were indirectly coerced into mortgaging a larger home. Nothing illegal, but the lenders still took advantage of a situation. How about all those PayDay Loans, Title Loan shops, etc. etc. popping up conveniently in the low income areas.

Basically well thought out business ventures taking advantage of those less informed.

Future consequences?
Dentist graduates with huge DS debt. Banks not willing to loan $$$ for private practice loan. Debt ridden dentist must associate or work for DSOs. This adds to the proliferation of DSOs and adds $$$ to the prior generation of dentists (owners hiring associates). Young dentist works well into their 40's still paying off their ridiculous DS debt.
How about future patient care? I think we can all agree that patient care in a Corporate (for profit) setting is and will be less than ideal as compared to a patient treated in private care. But they may not be safe in a private office either. How about the young dentist who graduates with huge DS debt and somehow convinces a lender to loan them another 500K plus to buy an existing practice or start up. With HUGE DS debt loans and now a practice debt .... you don't think that young dentist will be "biased" somewhat to increase production? The prospect of filing bankrupcy and failing is a strong deterrent and no matter what your morals are ..... you will be biased.

So .... I see these expensive dental schools as the MAIN culprit with consequences going beyond that young dental student. It affects people and business downstream.
 
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P7898

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I understand what @Anondds87 is saying. A business opportunity, but again ..... it's a one sided opportunity that lines the pockets of a few. The issue is that these so-called business opportunities that take advantage of the il-informed, naive students will cause futures issues to more than just those naive students. I equate this to the predatory lending in 2006- forward. Hard working people who probably could afford a smaller house, but were indirectly coerced into mortgaging a larger home. Nothing illegal, but the lenders still took advantage of a situation. How about all those PayDay Loans, Title Loan shops, etc. etc. popping up conveniently in the low income areas.

Basically well thought out business ventures taking advantage of those less informed.

Future consequences?
Dentist graduates with huge DS debt. Banks not willing to loan $$$ for private practice loan. Debt ridden dentist must associate or work for DSOs. This adds to the proliferation of DSOs and adds $$$ to the prior generation of dentists (owners hiring associates). Young dentist works well into their 40's still paying off their ridiculous DS debt.
How about future patient care? I think we can all agree that patient care in a Corporate (for profit) setting is and will be less than ideal as compared to a patient treated in private care. But they may not be safe in a private office either. How about the young dentist who graduates with huge DS debt and somehow convinces a lender to loan them another 500K plus to buy an existing practice or start up. With HUGE DS debt loans and now a practice debt .... you don't think that young dentist will be "biased" somewhat to increase production? The prospect of filing bankrupcy and failing is a strong deterrent and no matter what your morals are ..... you will be biased.

So .... I see these expensive dental schools as the MAIN culprit with consequences going beyond that young dental student. It affects people and business downstream.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Main worry is proper patient care. Going to be a lot of "re-treats" for all higher end procedures. We are seeing this a lot with implants and endo. Have you seen this at all with orthodontics?
 
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I think you hit the nail on the head. Main worry is proper patient care. Going to be a lot of "re-treats" for all higher end procedures. We are seeing this a lot with implants and endo. Have you seen this at all with orthodontics?
Yes, we have re-treated a lot of cases but mostly because the patients didn’t wear their retainers. When they were younger, their parents made them wear braces and since they didn’t pay for the tx, they didn’t care about wearing their retainers afterward. In dentistry, the successful treatment outcomes depend upon patient’s adherence to recommended treatment regimens. Patient compliance is very important. If patients don’t brush and floss and don’t stick to the 3-6 month perio maintenance, the deep pockets, which they spend thousands of dollars for perio surgery, will return….and they’ll loose their teeth….and have to get implants. If patient don’t brush and floss and have routine cleanings every 6 months, the crowns that they spend $1k for each, will fail within a few years due to recurrent decay.
 
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P7898

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Yes, we have re-treated a lot of cases but mostly because the patients didn’t wear their retainers. When they were younger, their parents made them wear braces and since they didn’t pay for the tx, they didn’t care about wearing their retainers afterward. In dentistry, the successful treatment outcomes depend upon patient’s adherence to recommended treatment regimens. Patient compliance is very important. If patients don’t brush and floss and don’t stick to the 3-6 month perio maintenance, the deep pockets, which they spend thousands of dollars for perio surgery, will return….and they’ll loose their teeth….and have to get implants. If patient don’t brush and floss and have routine cleanings every 6 months, the crowns that they spend $1k for each, will fail within a few years due to recurrent decay.

That makes sense. I can be the guilty one there... I need some ortho corrections. Implants aren't even full proof in perio patients as we are finding out more and more.
 
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FWIW. The dental school (BU) I graduated from just increased their 2020-2021 tuition and fees form $118k to $123k/yr. That’s a 4.5% increase. To graduate from that school is now $600k+ including interest.

I graduated exactly 10 yrs ago next week from the same program with $280k in loans, and that was the limit I could borrow back then.

So in the span of 10 years, the cost more than doubled. If tuition goes up 4-5% again each year from here, that’s $50k/yr more debt with interest. Pushing the program to $1M+ in cost in 6-7 yrs.

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Do you think we will actually see COA go up to $1M+ in the next decade? Not doubting it at all, but how is that sustainable?

That's just crazy to think about, at $1M+ the interest on the loan itself is going to be 80k a year. That's higher than the average household income in the US.

Also, at $1M+, there probably aren't many parents who could even make a dent in that for their kids. Not to mention, can the military even afford it? How will HPSP and stuff like that work? And lastly, imagine someone going to an Ortho residency after that. $1.5+ million in student loans before the career even starts. Good night
 
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Cold Front

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Do you think we will actually see COA go up to $1M+ in the next decade? Not doubting it at all, but how is that sustainable?

That's just crazy to think about, at $1M+ the interest on the loan itself is going to be 80k a year. That's higher than the average household income in the US.

Also, at $1M+, there probably aren't many parents who could even make a dent in that for their kids. Not to mention, can the military even afford it? How will HPSP and stuff like that work? And lastly, imagine someone going to an Ortho residency after that. $1.5+ million in student loans before the career even starts. Good night

Facts.

I honestly don’t have an answer to this problem. It’s not sustainable.

I agree. Some freshman student in college today will be going to a top tier in cost DDS/DMD school and graduate with $1M debt in 6-7 years (not including undergrad debt). And if he/she chooses to specialize at another expensive ortho or endo program after that (in 7-10 yrs from now), that will easily cost another $400-600k, plus the $80-100k in interest annually accruing from the $1M DS debt during 2-3 yrs in residency. It will be well over your $1.5M estimate, probably closer to $2M easily.


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Molar Whisperer

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Facts.

I honestly don’t have an answer to this problem. It’s not sustainable.

I agree. Some freshman student in college today will be going to a top tier in cost DDS/DMD school and graduate with $1M debt in 6-7 years (not including undergrad debt). And if he/she chooses to specialize at another expensive ortho or endo program after that (in 7-10 yrs from now), that will easily cost another $400-600k, plus the $80-100k in interest annually accruing from the $1M DS debt during 2-3 yrs in residency. It will be well over your $1.5M estimate, probably closer to $2M easily.


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$2M = nice equity on prime commercial real estate with its tax friendly passive income vs going to dental school, getting hazed by sadistic instructors (see the link 25 Years Later – Dental School STILL Sucks! | The Dental Warrior® – A Blog for Dentists ), graduating and succumbing to discounted PPO plans, DMOs & DSOs, and working harder for reduced pay. Remember, it's your life, not your parents or whoever you're trying to impress. You can't declare bankrupcy on student loans. It's like being in a stuck elevator with your gross, gassy uncle (which is me). Another advice...don't share a tiny office space with that individual unless you have good PPE.
 
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yappy

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$2M = nice equity on prime commercial real estate with its tax friendly passive income vs going to dental school, getting hazed by sadistic instructors (see the link 25 Years Later – Dental School STILL Sucks! | The Dental Warrior® – A Blog for Dentists ), graduating and succumbing to discounted PPO plans, DMOs & DSOs, and working harder for reduced pay. Remember, it's your life, not your parents or whoever you're trying to impress. You can't declare bankrupcy on student loans. It's like being in a stuck elevator with your gross, gassy uncle (which is me). Another advice...don't share a tiny office space with that individual unless you have good PPE.

The problem with this comparison is that the people who are going to be attending dental school are not getting access to 2M, or even a few hundred thousand dollars, of debt to invest in passive real estate or other investments. So the comparison of investing x dollars VS education is not realistic. What is realistic is foregoing dental school for some other career or educational opportunity.

However, I'm in complete agreement with you that dental school faculty are unprofessional and can be mean spirited. I don't know what attracts those types to dental education but the negative experience seems pretty universal. The kicker is that today you must pay dearly for the opportunity. For the prices schools charge faculty/staff should be treating students like country club members.
 
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Molar Whisperer

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The problem with this comparison is that the people who are going to be attending dental school are not getting access to 2M, or even a few hundred thousand dollars, of debt to invest in passive real estate or other investments. So the comparison of invest xxx dollars VS education is not realistic. What is realistic is foregoing dental school for some other career or educational opportunity.

You're absolutely right. That pseudo comparison was to stimulate thoughts outside of student loans.
 
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Awisdomtooth

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As you said, it is very unfortunate how people don’t pay attention to the tuition until its too late. To me, the problem starts from pre-dent years. I always encourage pre dents to shadow a dentist for couple of days and definitely spend couple of days at front desk or with the office manager. Dentistry is not all about your hand skills, it’s actually more about your knowledge in regard to business aspect of it. Pre dents forget the fact that insurances play an important role in your level of income and how patients could be careless about your hand skills as long as their insurance covers it. Dont get me wrong, still an amazing field to be in :)
 
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