Dental schools are ridiculous...

[Awisdomtooth]

As you said, it is very unfortunate how people don’t pay attention to the tuition until its too late. To me, the problem starts from pre-dent years. I always encourage pre dents to shadow a dentist for couple of days and definitely spend couple of days at front desk or with the office manager. Dentistry is not all about your hand skills, it’s actually more about your knowledge in regard to business aspect of it. Pre dents forget the fact that insurances play an important role in your level of income and how patients could be careless about your hand skills as long as their insurance covers it. Dont get me wrong, still an amazing field to be in

 

[KrentistDDS]

Sure hope your not a dentist ever working in an area near me. Sounds like your ethical compass needs to be recalibrated.

One of the very principles of ethics is, just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. So yes, what schools are doing is completely immoral. It’s greed. Sure, naive dental students are partly accountable, and that should be focused on too. But it still wrong on the schools part.
Let’s use a similar example, say your grandma willingly sends that stranger who keeps calling her the $2,000 they want for her “extended car warranty”. She chose to do it. Are we saying, “well the scammer is just taking advantage of a good financial situation for them. Can’t really blame them... It’s the naive senior citizens who are the real problem”? No we’re not. Because that’s fraud and the general population would agree it’s wrong.

Now, you could argue, “She paid for a bogus service she didn’t receive. Dental school you get the degree/service you pay for.” Which is correct. But then you enter whats called ‘price gouging.’ Google it. Either way, it’s unethical. So, yeah, we can blame dental schools.

Now I whole heartedly agree pre dents should be more aware. Basic economic and financial education would go a long way. But still doesn’t change the fact that dental schools are taking advantage of students and greed is becoming the priority.

This is a bad analogy. The scammer calling granny isn’t actually offering any real product. The dental schools are openly saying “this is our price for a dental degree.” They’re also not promising you what return you’ll get on your investment for this degree. I’m not saying that schools SHOULD necessarily charge these prices. However, I am arguing that it’s not the dental schools who are duping students into taking out $500k of debt.

 

[NADDUCK]

Some might comment: just doing military or NHSC but those are not guaranteed and it’s not addressing the problem thats causing the debt. I’ve been a little stressed over this and I wanted to know how you guys justify this?

There are more military options than just HPSP. Consider a 4 year commitment as any non-dental military officer, then getting out. You'll be delaying dental school, but be making near $100k right out of school for 4 years and saving up.

I'll be using the GI Bill for full tuition, plus receiving a monthly living stipend based on zip. I'll also be receiving about $10-15k a year in additional drilling reservist pay. Also, I will be taking a year off in dental school to do a military deployment pocketing about $100k tax free. So graduating in 5 years, debt free, with about $100k in savings, and owing the military nothing.

Point is, there are ways to do this. Not necessarily simple, but doable. People are crazy to take on this much debt.

 

[Blackca3]

There are more military options than just HPSP. Consider a 4 year commitment as any non-dental military officer, then getting out. You'll be delaying dental school, but be making near $100k right out of school for 4 years and saving up.

I'll be using the GI Bill for full tuition, plus receiving a monthly living stipend based on zip. I'll also be receiving about $10-15k a year in additional drilling reservist pay. Also, I will be taking a year off in dental school to do a military deployment pocketing about $100k tax free. So graduating in 5 years, debt free, with about $100k in savings, and owing the military nothing.

Point is, there are ways to do this. Not necessarily simple, but doable. People are crazy to take on this much debt.

I’m gonna need you to provide a break down because active duty 2LT pay is nowhere near 100k.

 

[fresnel]

"However, I'm in complete agreement with you that dental school faculty are unprofessional and can be mean spirited. I don't know what attracts those types to dental education but the negative experience seems pretty universal. "

Wow about that. Read this too and wondering what others say,

"Maybe it's a greedy profession that long ago decided to dis science (Flexner) in favor of art (Gies), does not view teeth as part of the anatomy and has decided against helping society correct an important health challenge in favor of appealing to the wealthy few who can afford just about anything and who are looking for cosmetic perfection and who are willing to promulgate the idea that perfectly bright absolutely straight white perfect teeth are normal, expected and necessary to be considered attractive. Uppers rot from the top down, right?. Could that be your answer?"

 

[NADDUCK]

I’m gonna need you to provide a break down because active duty 2LT pay is nowhere near 100k.

$3-4k in allowances per month are possible depending on your position and where you are stationed. That is on top of base pay. If you also factor in the value of benefits, healthcare, gym access, whatever, you are easily near $100k.

 

[Blackca3]

$3-4k in allowances per month are possible depending on your position and where you are stationed. That is on top of base pay. If you also factor in the value of benefits, healthcare, gym access, whatever, you are easily near $100k.

Allowances are closer to half of that. Healthy 21/22 2LT will have very little healthcare cost. More like 60k.

 

[NADDUCK]

Allowances are closer to half of that. Healthy 21/22 2LT will have very little healthcare cost. More like 60k.

I just pulled up my O-1 LES. Year end entitlements before benefits were $81k. It went up every year thereafter. If you think I'm lying I'll send you a screen capture.
I also worked in corporate America for awhile. Depending on marital status, children, you are looking at a few hundred to over a grand monthly costs for comparable healthcare. So yes, close to $100k in relative income your first year as an officer.

Edit: I would add... no one in the government ever lies about their income. It's all public and everyone knows what everyone else makes. It's kind of refreshing actually.

 

[schmoob]

Depending on what one does in the military and if they sustain any service connected disabilities, Voc Rehab is an excellent option to pay for dental school.

 

[Blackca3]

I just pulled up my O-1 LES. Year end entitlements before benefits were $81k. It went up every year thereafter. If you think I'm lying I'll send you a screen capture.
I also worked in corporate America for awhile. Depending on marital status, children, you are looking at a few hundred to over a grand monthly costs for comparable healthcare. So yes, close to $100k in relative income your first year as an officer.

You don’t have to post it but I am very curious to get a breakdown. Did you go in with several dependents? Or live somewhere with a very high cost of living? 81k is not typical. I worked corporate as well and health care will range. It can certainly be much cheaper than a few hundred for an individual.

 

[NADDUCK]

I dont mind sharing this, if it convinces other people what a great deal the military is. This was my monthly pay stub as an O-1.

 

[Blackca3]

Where did you live that you received that much BAH and COLA on top of it?

 

[NADDUCK]

Where did you live that you received that much BAH and COLA on top of it?

Japan

 

[schmoob]

You don’t have to post it but I am very curious to get a breakdown. Did you go in with several dependents? Or live somewhere with a very high cost of living? 81k is not typical. I worked corporate as well and health care will range. It can certainly be much cheaper than a few hundred for an individual.

Number of dependents don’t make a difference. There is no change in BAH if you have 1 dependent or 8.

 

[pookey123]

I heard that my school's dean already announced that tuition will be raised next year and that there won't be any refunds given (unless there's a successful class action). A student asked why? and a dean said that they installed new air filters in the elevators and that air filters ain't cheap lol

 

[drcobad]

I heard that my school's dean already announced that tuition will be raised next year and that there won't be any refunds given (unless there's a successful class action). A student asked why? and a dean said that they installed new air filters in the elevators and that air filters ain't cheap lol

I'm sorry for the extra tuition burden. You guys (students and recent grads) have it the toughest in all dental history and couple that with this crazy Pandemic. My childhood dentist who graduated in 1959 would be rolling in his grave now and telling me not to be a dentist. He only had 2 operatories in a small town of 8000 people including 2 other full time and 1 part time dentist and takes mostly cash and some fully reimbursed insurance. In contrast to present time, a small town an hr away from my area in the Pacific NW has 32 dentists for 15k people.

I had a DS upperclassman who took me under his wings. He is from the Pacific NW and told me how nice Seattle is and Vancouver BC is just a 2.5 hr drive away with world class Asian food particularly in BC. He graduated in the mid 90's without loans due to rich parents and went to Seattle and struggled. He later moved to Las Vegas and advised me not practice in Seattle because it is way over saturated. His boss in Seattle was seeing reduced fee PPOs and capitation and was running 5-6 chairs just to survive. He also told me in Cali, the state Board was considering licensing Foreign Dentists to bring the costs of dental care down.

Due to oversatuation, many dentists are forced to receive decreasing insurance reimbursements similar or worse than in the mid 90s. My dentist sister told me many insurances will not cover additional PPE's costs and will tell their subscribers they are not responsible for paying them (contrary to some posters who said they charged for them). So the question is, are the sky rocketing student loans worth it?

 

[fresnel]

Sad there is no consideration about what a profession ends up being like if nearly all the practitioners graduate with oodles of debt. Would n't you think that mounds of debt might impact on career goals. In a country where practitioners graduate with mounds of debt might you think most practitioners would try to establish practices in lucrative specialties in wealthy communities. That might mean the very wealthy end up with beautiful teeth and the other 98% with such bad teeth their health is impaired. Would a health profession allow such a thing to happen? Are there countries where the very rich have perfect teeth but most people have lousy teeth? If that were to happen in a decent country, wouldn't you think the profession would do something to prevent it beyond throwing a few bones to the very poor like Dentists without boarders?

 

[Blueshirts]

Sad there is no consideration about what a profession ends up being like if nearly all the practitioners graduate with oodles of debt. Would n't you think that mounds of debt might impact on career goals. In a country where practitioners graduate with mounds of debt might you think most practitioners would try to establish practices in lucrative specialties in wealthy communities. That might mean the very wealthy end up with beautiful teeth and the other 98% with such bad teeth their health is impaired. Would a health profession allow such a thing to happen? Are there countries where the very rich have perfect teeth but most people have lousy teeth? If that were to happen in a decent country, wouldn't you think the profession would do something to prevent it beyond throwing a few bones to the very poor like Dentists without boarders?

Once it becomes a problem, the real “geniuses” will step in and implement various government regulations that will undercut the doctors while simultaneously providing little benefit to communities in need, all while ignoring the root problem (student loans)

 

[rsk384]

I understand what @Anondds87 is saying. A business opportunity, but again ..... it's a one sided opportunity that lines the pockets of a few. The issue is that these so-called business opportunities that take advantage of the il-informed, naive students will cause futures issues to more than just those naive students. I equate this to the predatory lending in 2006- forward. Hard working people who probably could afford a smaller house, but were indirectly coerced into mortgaging a larger home. Nothing illegal, but the lenders still took advantage of a situation. How about all those PayDay Loans, Title Loan shops, etc. etc. popping up conveniently in the low income areas.

Basically well thought out business ventures taking advantage of those less informed.

Future consequences?
Dentist graduates with huge DS debt. Banks not willing to loan $$$ for private practice loan. Debt ridden dentist must associate or work for DSOs. This adds to the proliferation of DSOs and adds $$$ to the prior generation of dentists (owners hiring associates). Young dentist works well into their 40's still paying off their ridiculous DS debt.
How about future patient care? I think we can all agree that patient care in a Corporate (for profit) setting is and will be less than ideal as compared to a patient treated in private care. But they may not be safe in a private office either. How about the young dentist who graduates with huge DS debt and somehow convinces a lender to loan them another 500K plus to buy an existing practice or start up. With HUGE DS debt loans and now a practice debt .... you don't think that young dentist will be "biased" somewhat to increase production? The prospect of filing bankrupcy and failing is a strong deterrent and no matter what your morals are ..... you will be biased.

So .... I see these expensive dental schools as the MAIN culprit with consequences going beyond that young dental student. It affects people and business downstream.

only correct answer there is, my dude

 

[Cold Front]

Nah, this is like the number one thing talked about on here haha.

If you go back to threads (not that anyone will) from 10+ years ago, a lot of it was “when should I open a dental office?”, “how much does it cost to open a new practice?”, etc. Now there is a huge hump at the front end - and everyone is now like... “how do I get rid of this debt?”. People clearly ignored the discussions about the huge imminent student loans for decades on these forums, the majority will still do in the next decade.

 

[dentistrydmd]

I might shake the table with this one, but why are most pre dents and dental students so incompetent when it comes to the pricing of dental school and basic personal finance? I feel like it isn’t talked about enough and it’s getting out of hand. I think it’s disgusting how these schools can get away with charging so much. Schools are raising their prices faster than inflation and they try to justify this by saying they lost state funding but even with the increase of state funding the past years they still continue to increase prices. Also the interest rate on loans are ridiculous considering the fact that the banks only pays a tiny tiny tiny interest while giving us 7-8% interest rates. I can go on and on with numbers but it will still go over most people’s heads. Why would people even think to go to places like USC or NYU where you’ll come out with 600k in debt (when interest is accounted for). How is that even possible!!! You will literally drown in that debt.
I feel so hopeless because I really love dentistry and I cant really see myself doing anything else, but where do I draw the line. I feel so alone because no one seems to care until it’s too late. Pre-dents are so worried about getting into school that they don’t even realized the financial trap they are falling in. Some might comment: just doing military or NHSC but those are not guaranteed and it’s not addressing the problem thats causing the debt. I’ve been a little stressed over this and I wanted to know how you guys justify this?

because most people entering the dental field today have trouble understanding finances

 

[fermi555]

If you go back to threads (not that anyone will) from 10+ years ago, a lot of it was “when should I open a dental office?”, “how much does it cost to open a new practice?”, etc. Now there is a huge hump at the front end - and everyone is now like... “how do I get rid of this debt?”. People clearly ignored the discussions about the huge imminent student loans for decades on these forums, the majority will still do in the next decade.

Somebody recently bumped a thread from 2001 where the person was freaking that that UOP, a three year school, had tuition of about $40,000. Today, that tuition is $114,000 and climbing.

 

[dentistrydmd]

Somebody recently bumped a thread from 2001 where the person was freaking that that UOP, a three year school, had tuition of about $40,000. Today, that tuition is $114,000 and climbing.

How do we explain the large increase in tuition rates (significantly greater than inflation)? Union strength in negotiation for large salaries?

 

[fermi555]

How do we explain the large increase in tuition rates (significantly greater than inflation)? Union strength in negotiation for large salaries?

Because of guaranteed student loans from the government, schools have no incentive to keep prices down. Effectively, they can raise tuition as much as they want and the government will still back the loans. Schools like USC and NYU are already pushing $700k and still seem to have no problems filling their seats because of how financially illiterate pre dents can't comprehend how much debt that really is.

 

[Cold Front]

Somebody recently bumped a thread from 2001 where the person was freaking that that UOP, a three year school, had tuition of about $40,000. Today, that tuition is $114,000 and climbing.

My 1st yr dental school tuition was $39k in 2006, it’s now $98k at the same school - and those students are paying that astronomical cost to do online classes this year. The schools should be giving a huge discounts for pushing students to study from home.

 

[HKSZYU]

Because of guaranteed student loans from the government, schools have no incentive to keep prices down. Effectively, they can raise tuition as much as they want and the government will still back the loans. Schools like USC and NYU are already pushing $700k and still seem to have no problems filling their seats because of how financially illiterate pre dents can't comprehend how much debt that really is.

Exactly. Schools see the current student loan arrangement as a blank check to extort as much money out of students as possible, and until the government puts restrictions on student loan borrowing, schools will just continue to arbitrarily increase tuition.

 

[dentistrydmd]

Because of guaranteed student loans from the government, schools have no incentive to keep prices down. Effectively, they can raise tuition as much as they want and the government will still back the loans. Schools like USC and NYU are already pushing $700k and still seem to have no problems filling their seats because of how financially illiterate pre dents can't comprehend how much debt that really is.

Yes. Well this part we know. If they can increase the tuition to infinity they will. I'm pointing out that those tuition increases are going into someone's pocket. If the unions are asking for higher salaries for their academics/instructors/administrators and the school can easily raise tuition that's where the money will end up. Right?

 

[HKSZYU]

Yes. Well this part we know. If they can increase the tuition to infinity they will. I'm pointing out that those tuition increases are going into someone's pocket. If the unions are asking for higher salaries for their academics/instructors/administrators and the school can easily raise tuition that's where the money will end up. Right?

No. That would imply professor salaries are increasing at a proportional rate to tuition increases. Over the past 10, tuition at many schools has nearly doubled. Professor and instructor salaries have not increased at nearly that same rate.

In terms of salaries, the money is partially going to increasing teaching salaries, but often it's going to increasing salaries for administrative functions, or even adding new administrative roles, many of which are of questionable necessity. While most businesses try to run as streamline staffing as possible, dental schools (as well as many professional schools and much of the healthcare profession in general) run in the opposite direction because they have no incentive to streamline.

You're correct in pointing out that tuition is increasing so much faster than the actual cost of educating students. That extra money goes into all sorts of places, from facilities, to development projects, to subsidizing research and R&D. Some of those things will directly benefit you as a student; a lot of it won't.

 

[Blueshirts]

Yes. Well this part we know. If they can increase the tuition to infinity they will. I'm pointing out that those tuition increases are going into someone's pocket. If the unions are asking for higher salaries for their academics/instructors/administrators and the school can easily raise tuition that's where the money will end up. Right?

More likely into investment accounts & infrastructure development, also keep in mind that there are university systems - some of the schools have solid revenue streams, some of them don't, so whenever one school is doing less well, the ones with a more solid revenue stream are able to float the other schools (this might be the reason why I am getting advertisements on Pandora for U Chicago's graduate business school now lol).

 

[dentistrydmd]

No. That would imply professor salaries are increasing at a proportional rate to tuition increases. Over the past 10, tuition at many schools has nearly doubled. Professor and instructor salaries have not increased at nearly that same rate.

In terms of salaries, the money is partially going to increasing teaching salaries, but often it's going to increasing salaries for administrative functions, or even adding new administrative roles, many of which are of questionable necessity. While most businesses try to run as streamline staffing as possible, dental schools (as well as many professional schools and much of the healthcare profession in general) run in the opposite direction because they have no incentive to streamline.

You're correct in pointing out that tuition is increasing so much faster than the actual cost of educating students. That extra money goes into all sorts of places, from facilities, to development projects, to subsidizing research and R&D. Some of those things will directly benefit you as a student; a lot of it won't.

Yes for sure. I was wondering if you had data to back up the increase in salaries element of this. Also more than likely it is a combination of that and expanded hiring like you mentioned. Salaries are usually the majority of costs to run any institution. But yeah I'm sure there is a lot of fat to trim off of most dental schools and with ever increasing tuition and a market that is more than willing to take on exorbitant debts this is leading to a downward spiral of dental education/student debt crisis.

 

[pookey123]

No. That would imply professor salaries are increasing at a proportional rate to tuition increases. Over the past 10, tuition at many schools has nearly doubled. Professor and instructor salaries have not increased at nearly that same rate.

In terms of salaries, the money is partially going to increasing teaching salaries, but often it's going to increasing salaries for administrative functions, or even adding new administrative roles, many of which are of questionable necessity. While most businesses try to run as streamline staffing as possible, dental schools (as well as many professional schools and much of the healthcare profession in general) run in the opposite direction because they have no incentive to streamline.

You're correct in pointing out that tuition is increasing so much faster than the actual cost of educating students. That extra money goes into all sorts of places, from facilities, to development projects, to subsidizing research and R&D. Some of those things will directly benefit you as a student; a lot of it won't.

all the money went to administrators, associate deans and the rest of their ilk. oh and fancy multi-million dollar new lobbies

 

[dentistrydmd]

all the money went to administrators, associate deans and the rest of their ilk. oh and fancy multi-million dollar new lobbies

Yeah for sure. Those expensive renovations cost a lot and I'm sure they were not prudent about spending for those facilities to make it cost effective or efficient.

 

[Blueshirts]

Yeah for sure. Those expensive renovations cost a lot and I'm sure they were not prudent about spending for those facilities to make it cost effective or efficient.

Agreed. I remember when I was brushing up on what was going on at schools, so that I could show them at interviews that I was up to date and interested in their programs, that a lot of schools were more than happy to broadcast how many millions of dollars they were spending on new features for their program; looking back, I would be more impressed by a program who could accomplish the same goals without blowing exorbitant amount of money.