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Dental Schools Near Fiscal Collapse

Discussion in 'Dental' started by Anoniville, Mar 27, 2017.

  1. Anoniville

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    If you have suspicions that your school is near fiscal collapse feel free to post about what led them to this position.
     
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  3. Kareful

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    I should ask you the same question!
     
    Big Time Hoosier likes this.
  4. allantois

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    Why would they be?

    They can get all the money they want and more
     
  5. Big Time Hoosier

    Big Time Hoosier Man. Myth. Legend.
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    When the student loan bubble finally bursts, there will very likely be some expensive schools that don't survive. Not so much a question of if, but when.

    Big Hoss

    Edit: Thought some more about this. The first to fall will probably be these crazy expensive private schools that aren't attached to much larger university systems - Roseman and the like come to mind. Without the resources large universities may provide, they will not be able to weather a collapse in tuition.
     
    #4 Big Time Hoosier, Mar 27, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
  6. anonon

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    Columbia is projected to be 3 million in the red last I heard
     
  7. ncide

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    #6 ncide, Apr 1, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
    Faefly likes this.
  8. arlmay

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    SIU is not in jeopardy of closing or even being affected by finances at the moment.
     
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  9. Likkriue

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    So they lost another 6 million. They charge double what Texas school charges. Probably overpaying administration. School deans get paid more than the POTUS. Really disgusting.
     
    Advance likes this.
  10. Incis0r

    Incis0r I LOVE Dental School
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    Can a school even close if there are students enrolled in a degree program there?

    For example, if you are a D1, one would think they'd stop taking applications for the class after yours and let you graduate before shutting their doors...
     
  11. Cold Front

    Cold Front Supreme Member
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    Yes. A school can close at a moment's notice and send all staff and students home. Typically staff get some sort of severance package, and students are encouraged to transfer to other programs by requesting their transcripts. Students could also qualify for tuition and fees reimbursement for the courses they didn't complete.

    But before things reach a mayhem level, you see a surge of concerned faculty and chatter in staff circles. Students are usually the last to find out and pay the ultimate price.

    So for no school has been in such position for over 30 years.
     
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  12. Typical Average Student

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    Oregon is supposed to be having a lot of trouble keeping their funding.
     
  13. Typical Average Student

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    Half of what you wrote is wrong. Public schools don't make money off of your tuition, so tuition has nothing to do with deficits. Texas is able to charge low tuition because a large majority of graduates will stay in Texas, an investment the government and the State of Texas is willing to take, therefore, more funds are allocated to the school which allow the school to operate comfortably. Second, you would be thoroughly surprised by how much administration makes at a dental school... the admin are really doing you a favor by not going full-time private practice, I can tell you that. Lastly, their dean doesn't make more than the POTUS. The average salary of admin in a dental school is significantly less than $200,000.
     
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  14. cacajuate

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    You can look up all texas public employee salaries at Government Salaries Explorer | The Texas Tribune. Most of our assistant deans make ~$120k. Our dental school dean makes $330k, Dean of UT Health SA makes $701k. So yes, some deans do get paid more than POTUS.
     
  15. allantois

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    Did you just make all that stuff up??

    Here are the salaries of the three dental deans in TX: $385,950, $329,320 and $220,000. Don't forget there are different department heads, and all sorts of administrators.

    Each graduate school within a university has to balance its own budget. Medical schools, nursing schools, and PhD programs do an excellent job at securing non-tuition funding such as research grants and donor support. Now, dental schools do an absolutely lousy job at that (perhaps not in Texas). They also don't have anywhere as many voluntary faculty as med schools, if at all.

    Government Salaries Explorer | The Texas Tribune
     
  16. Likkriue

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    Please tell me what changes caused a 40% increase in tuition.
    Dental school costed about 60k adjusted for inflation in the 1980s.

    Dental schools were able to operate at that amount yet in 2017 can't? What did they do? Paint all their floors gold?
     
  17. Likkriue

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    Absolutely disgusting. Imagine how much a private school dean is taking in.

    Also nepotism at a dental school is almost impossible to call out. I won't say which school, but a dentist who was hire as faculty managed to get all his friends hired recently. Most of the students don't even go to lectures. You pay 100k+ for someone to speak to a empty lecture room for a couple of days. Then afterwards they work in their private pratice on the side. This is where all your tuition goes.

    If you are best friends with a dean, he could easily allocate a administrative spot or teaching position just for you on the schools dime.
     
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  18. Typical Average Student

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    No, I did not make it up. I'm very well aware of the Texas Salary website. As posters above noted, I pointed out the salary of the dean of UW who makes less than POTUS salary which is noted here: Detailed Table: Dean Salaries - Washington State Employee Salaries - The Spokesman-Review

    Again, as noted above, decrease in state/local funding would push for public schools to push for higher tuition to make up the costs. Please note that I'm talking about PUBLIC schools and not private. But if you must see what private is up to, I've linked a graph below.
    Also, salaries of deans isn't something you should be so concerned about, you should, rather, be concerned about the absolutely robbery football/basketball coaches at a number of universities.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  19. Likkriue

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    Actually the only people getting robbed on the ncaa level are the athletes. Literally free labor for that 1% chance of making it to the NBA/NFL at the expense of their education and health.
     
  20. Likkriue

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    So the dean of UW gets paid 360k to lose over 6 million a year. **** sign me up, I'll take that job
    Over slaving away at a practice any day.
     
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  21. MahiMahi

    MahiMahi Optimism
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    In regards to tuition increases that are drastically outpacing the cost of inflation, many suggest that the real reason is a massive increase in administration. Some news articles:
    Administrators Ate My Tuition
    New Analysis Shows Problematic Boom In Higher Ed Administrators | The Huffington Post
    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/05/opinion/sunday/the-real-reason-college-tuition-costs-so-much.html
    The Growth of Administrative Staff in Universities | Hacker News
    The Fall of the Faculty: The Rise of the All-Administrative University and Why It Matters

    For public universities, you can add falling public funding to the list of reasons, depending on the state.
     
    #20 MahiMahi, Apr 11, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2017
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  22. WheatLom

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    You should ask the students who attend Loyola and we're literally a few months from graduation when they closed up
     
  23. WheatLom

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    Northwestern closed in 2001 Loyola in 1993 or 94 can't remember, but both schools from what I hear have had issues with finances for a while and currently still do. Not certain, but I've heard.
     
  24. DMD.DDS.2016

    DMD.DDS.2016 Dental Student
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    Northwestern allowed their existing students to graduate. They announced the closure in 1998 and shut down in 2001.
     
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  25. MahiMahi

    MahiMahi Optimism
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    Wow... I did not know that, and that's really heartening to hear that they saw their students through to graduation.
     
  26. Likkriue

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    Loyola basically had to tell their students to transfer instead of giving them time to graduate. Was terrible.
     
  27. dajari

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    I heard they were audited recently and the number was closer to $80 million in deficit. They've raised tuition a couple of times and a freeze on raises for faculty. I'm surprised they haven't fired Dean Joel Berg yet...
     
  28. Yachi

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    Joel Berg resigned.

    6 dental schools closed in the late 1980's-1990's due to lack of applicants. They had gone from 12000 applicants to 5000 applicants. Northwestern dean at the time of its shutdown partially looked down on the dental profession, calling it "tooth carpenter".
    Once high school/colleges students realize that the 400k debt is no longer worth the dentist salary and profession outlook, private institutions like (Roseman, Western, Midwestern, etc.) won't be able to sustain its operations.

    We see a lot of pre-doc students moving from pre-health to programming, CS majors; liberal arts majors moving to STEM majors. Maybe in 10-20 years times, after a few law/pharm/dental/med schools close down, we will see dentist salary rebound again.
     
  29. Endeross

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    I Spoke to someone (faculty) at University of Washington, They're supposedly 40-50m in the red according to a recent meeting they'd had. Supposedly a lot of the faculty quit after they started downsizing specialty programs (which makes sense cuz you dont wanna get laid off if you can just quit and work elsewhere). Supposedly the students are surviving and were in good spirits (according to this guy, maybe someone here can chime in a little better). What I've heard is that if they close the program they'll finish out the current students while quitting admissions.

    I go to OHSU. I havent heard anything about money issues, and if there are any they're very closed lips about it. IDK where the above poster got their info about being a few million in the red, and it would surprise me since the school is part of the rest of the hospital and is doing pretty well from what I know, unless they've overstepped their bounds on some of the other program expansions (OHSU Knight cancer institute just recently opened up next door) I'd love to see anything to the contrary however.

    I just cannot understand how a dental school can lose money unless they're literally just overspending the crap out of the 100k every year they get from every student they admit into the programs. It only takes faculty, materials, and a building. Hell, you even get money back to pay for some of the faculty by selling dentistry in the clinics with free student labor and 1 doctor faculty to every 5-10 students. If dental schools could make it work 10-15 years ago for 1/3 the cost and still stay in business, how can it have worsened at current school tuition costs?
     
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  30. allantois

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    This is indeed very bizarre. You don’t hear about medical schools, nursing, etc schools closing down. And they all charge a fraction of dental school tuition. There is serious financial mismanagement going on at dental schools.
     
  31. Big Time Hoosier

    Big Time Hoosier Man. Myth. Legend.
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    They are much cheaper to run because they aren’t maintaining their own clinic spaces. Think about it, during medical school you are doing your clinical rotations at a hospital that is not being supported by the medical school. Essentially, medical schools just need lecture halls to operate. Also, that money coming in from dental school patients very often is through Medicaid which has terrible reimbursement rates.

    Big Hoss
     
  32. allantois

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    Still doesn’t explain how they can’t operate now when they could years ago when tuition was much lower. Also, what’s so expensive about running a dental clinic staffed with free labor? Maybe schools shouldn’t focus on having the fanciest and most expensive facilities and tech.
     
  33. Likkriue

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    This is something state schools have
    I cringe at the digital curriculum they are pushing at my school. So much money spent.
     
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  34. studentdent00

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    These kind of info are pretty secretive unless you are on first-name basis with one of the associate deans or department chairs.
     
  35. frozenicecreamDMD

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    I can really understand why dental schools go into debt, in clinic, the way it is run is the most inefficient and time consuming ever. Plus, patients that go to dental school are not the best patients. a lot cancel/no show and they only allow 1 patient per session and you only have 2 sessions a day. So many protocols and steps you have to go through to get something done.

    Please, spending 1 2hr appt just to do a class II will not generate any money for the school and given faculty: student ratio, you cannot do more than this and just sit like a duck waiting most of the time.

    Faculty takes forever to check off procedures and some don't work with students. Patient cannot afford procedures. School uses expensive top brand product from company sponsor like Henry Schein, etc etc
     
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  36. hellopeople

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    Is there any reason to think any school is in dire financial straights? My school was making capital investments in, for lack if a better word, the amenities as I left. They re-did the building face, added a parking lot, fenced the whole thing off, retiled the floors, and remodeled the dining area.

    It may be that they were hurting for cash, but it certainly didn't appear that way.
     
  37. doc toothache

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    Why would medicaid patients choose to get dental services at a dental school when it is much easier/faster to obtain services at your neighborhood doc?
     
  38. princeafrica

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    I asked a couple of students at CO Dental School Clinic. They said a lot of the Medicaid patients that come are the ones that have gone beyond the $1,000 limit or are very close to hitting it and know the schools will offer them a cheaper options than a private clinic would, should they go over the limit.
     

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