Dentistry in the Military

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zahnmann

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HI folks,
I am a 1997 graduate of a dental school in the northeast. I am now a dentist working for the military in Germany at a large clinic. I was stupid enough to listen to the recruiters while I was in dental school and I believed them. Unfortunately, only a little bit of what they sold me is actually true. So almost 4 years after I signed up, here I am, still paying the price for my decision. However, now that I have only 1 year left of obligation to the devil, I feel like I am not sorry I did it, but 2 years ago I didn't feel that way. If you are thinking of selling your soul to the devil for a scholarship or a sign-on bonus, please feel free to email me privately and I will post my response to the message board. In this age of information, there is no reason a new grad should go into the military without having all of the facts.
Anonymous dentist in Germany

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> Zahnmann,
> I am active duty enlisted stationed at Scott Air Force Base, Illinois. I am
> currently going to school on my own time. Looks real good that I will get
> into dental school (top 1% on the DAT and PAT with a 3.99 gpa) I think that
> the HPSP would be great for me since I am already active duty with 13 years
> in already. The Air Force now has a full 4 year scholarship that is only for
> acadamy, rotc, and active duty. I don't think that I can pass it up. When I
> start dental school next fall, I will only have 5.5 years left to
> retirement. Just wanted some of your insight into military dentistry.


Wow. Insights on military dentistry. Since you already have so much time in then you may want to do it, however. But look at the facts. When you enter dental school, you will still be close to ten years from retirement. The military is not going to put you through dental school for your last tour before retirement. You will owe them. So you will need a one year general dentistry residency, then a 3 year assignment. Plan on going to Europe or Korea (Or some island like Guam) if you do that. If you can work that kind of deal and get your school paid for, then do it, maybe. Can you put up with their bull**** for 4 years and then retire as a Captain? I suppose. For myself, however, I had no years in when I came onto active duty. My pay was much lower than yours will be. You will be an o-3 with atl least 3 years in.Not bad.
Depending on how old you are, you have to consider that you will be considerably older than other new dentists just starting out in private practice. Over 40 is when you start looking for someone to buy your practice, but you will have just bought one and will begin to pay down the $500,000 loan you just got. Where is the extra cash for your REAL retirement going to come from? Military retirements are only subsistence living. Furthermore, you will be losing 4 years of your career in private practice to Uncle Sugar. We all know it takes BIG bucks to make up for lost time in the investment game. If you have a 40 year career than that would be 10% of your career you give U. S. and so on. If you starting out then you arent going to have a 40 year career. Do you know how much money a dentist can earn in 4 years? Way more than the cost of your 4 years in dental school. The HPSP is pocket change, really, compared to what the extra income, if invested correctly and early, could become by retirement age. You have to consider that since you are already delaying things by starting out older (I assume you are at least 31) you don't want to delay them further by messing around with U.S. military. I was 28 when I started dental school and I will be 37 when I finally am out next year. And, I get NO retirement from Uncle Sugar for the time I put in! OUCH!
Zahnmann

 
Leaning wrote:
Hi,
I read your post about the army scholarship. ?I was thinking about applying
to it, but after reading your post I was a little discouraged. ?My family
friends also say I shouldn't do it because it wouldn't be a huge financial
burden on me (my parents are physicians) and that I would make less money
than other dentists. ?Right now I'm a senior in college and just waiting to
hear back from dental schools, so I haven't taken any action with the army
except have a meeting with a sargeant. ?Do you have any more opinons and/or
insight on why I shouldn't do it? ?Right now I'm leaning towards not to do
it, but I'm not positive. ?Thanks for your time.

Dear Leaning,
Thanks for writing to me. I have not had many responses considering the message is posted on the www.
Your parents are absolutely right. You working career can be thought of as a long savings plan for retirement. Dentistry is not an easy thing to do. You have to have good eyesight, hand eye coordination, and dexterity not to mention the other normal "doctor" attributes. How long do you think you are going to work as a dentist? 40 years? Would you give the army 10% of a 40 year career? The early years of savings are crucial. Saving for retirement during those years can add up big when it is time for retirement. Those are the years the military steals from you. You will not have enough money left over to save in any substantial amounts. Yes, they will pay your school loan. But when you go into repayment, the amounts are $800 to $1200 a month. That is not bad for a dentist in private practice, and you will have money left over for your IRA and then some. There are many other attributes of practicing in the military that are unfavorable and some things that are very good. Money, however, is not one of those good things. I have been in over 3 years now and my paycheck is $3200 per month. For a dentist in private practice that is financial failure.
Watch out for those recruiters. They have to lie to get recruits. If they told the truth about practicing in the military, then no one would join, except maybe dentists with prior military service.
There is such low morale here in the Army dental corps, I have decided to make a video. If you check back with me in about 3 months, It will be done. I will be glad to mail you a copy. Since you can't be in my shoes, that is the best way I know how to inform you about this without you actually being here.
Zahnmann

PS. As I stated, Q and A will be posted on the web, anonymously.
 
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Hi,

I read your posts regarding Dentistry in the Military and would like to ask
few questions. ?Obviously from your posts, I can tell that you did not enjoy
your experiences in the military. ?Currently I am 23 years old and am
waiting for acceptances at Dental Schools. ?I will be 24 when I enter dental
school. ?furthermore, I would like to goto Harvard and specialize in
endodontics or oral surgery. ?Would getting a scholarship from a military be
a bad thing for me since i want to specialize? ?I am interested in the Air
Force 'cause i heared that it is the most lax out of all the branches of the
military. ?I know that they only offer 3 years of scholarship. My stance
right now is that if i goto a public school i will not take the military
route but if i need to goto a school that i will incur over 250,000 debt,
300,000 after four years with interests, that i will take the military
route. ?I think for harvard total debt with interest will be around 200,000
so i am kind of in a limbo with that school. ?regardless, why is the
military that bad? ?i hear you make 35,000 but the housing is paid for so
the pay actually turns out to be 70,000. ?i live in San Diego, CAlifornia
and i know for a fact that a starting general dentist would only make around
60,000 since there are so many dentists here. ?I dont' exactly know how much
specialists make to start off 'caue if they do get paid a lot then i
probably don't want to commit the years. ?So when you get a chance, please
give me some info, i would greatly appreciate it. ?thank you for your time.

______________________________
I am glad you asked,
I am writing you this reply at 1:03 AM because I am now awake since my downstairs neighbor's dog started barking and woke me up. I couldn't go back to sleep so I am writing you.
I can answer some of your specific questions if you are really interested, but first I want to tell you this. You can substitute "Air Force" for "Army" in the letter below. They are equivalent, for the most part, as far as dental goes.
I have been living in this apartment building for 2 years now. We have 2 bedrooms for myself, my 2 1/2 year old boy and my pregnant wife. We have been living with a barking dog downstairs for all of the time we have been living here. Both of the people who live under us are active duty soldiers and they are often deployed, go to bed early and get up early to do PT with their units. Their dog starts barking when they leave at 5 AM. Sometimes when they get back from the field they stay up talking and drinking with their buddies until the wee hours in the morning. Once when this happened and my parents were here visiting, I went downstairs and confronted them. They insisted they weren't making that much noise but I could hear every word they were saying. He told his buddies that I am just a goddamn dentist and I didn't understand what a real soldier's life was like so I was apt to complain alot.
Nice neighbors, right? I complained about their dog's incessant yipping. And complained, and complained. Their solution- a box that makes noise when the dog barks. Did the dog care? No! Did he stop barking? NO!! Now it was 2 shrieking noises for the price of one! It was so loud you could hear it on the street.
When I got here to my present assignment, I went through the housing assignment office, the same one that all soldiers go through. The first apartment they showed me was a total dump. It was on the American post in an area that looked like a big city project (and still looks that way). This apartment obviously hadn't been lived in for years, but the new area commander was trying to fill it and many other apartments just like it anyway since the previous commander was allowing people to live on the German economy if they wanted to. Too many had taken him up on the offer. Well, I refused to sign for this place, and then the housing officer said that since I had refused the offer then I would have to pay for my temporary quarters myself ($80 a day). Finally after pleading with him he offered me the apartment I am now living in, in a small German town, in a building leased from it's German owner by the Army. I don't have the freedom to choose where I live. The Army is not a democracy. I am a 36 year old doctor living in a 2 bedroom apartment that I was told I had to live in. Does that tell you anything about the Army? Does the Army care that you are a doctor? You are just another "green suiter" to them. Once you sign on that dotted line, you're an owned man.
When I got here 2 years ago, I found out real quick that I am the only Dental Corps Captain in the entire area. The situation is the same now, I am still the lowest ranking dentist here. New dentists are not lining up to work for the Army. There is a little thing I wanted to tell you about known simply as "call". That means you're it. You get the cellular phone which belongs to the local Hospital ER. Whenever a dental patient comes in to the ER, no matter what the time, they call you. Until very recently there were only 6 dentists on the call roster, but about 20 or 21 dentists between the two major posts here. Nobody over the rank of Major was on the call roster. Just Captains, Majors and contract dentists. Well I was the only Captain, there was and still is a Major at the hospital dental clinic (now promotable to LTC), and a few contract dentists, three of which were leaving in December. Replacements were going to be Colonels- not placed on the call roster. (They already paid their dues, right?) So as I saw it I would be on the call roster every few weeks. I began writing letters to the local commander and the chief of the Dental Corps in Washington D.C. and finally there was a change in policy. Now everybody is on the call roster except clinic chiefs. Finally. Well almost, it's still just the same old group of us that were kept on the holiday roster. LTC and above don't have to do call on holidays. But for me that's way better than it was.
Let me tell you this: I don't care how much money the Army (Air Force) paid for you to go to school. When you have to go to the ER at 2 AM to fix somebody's lousy tooth, (you don't have a choice- they call, you go) you are going to be hating it. When your lousy neighbor's dog starts barking at 5 AM, you are going to be hating it. What are you going to do, move? Quit your job? Demand more pay? Good luck! You are an owned man! Uncle Sugar owns you and your life! Not only that, but the Military broadcast systems are loaded with this continunus Honor, Duty, God and Country crap. It really grates on the nerves after awhile.
Do you need to hear any more? There's more! I haven't even talked about the everyday practice of dentistry in a subsidized system. You depend on Uncle Sugar for all your instruments, supplies, dental chair, hygienists, appointment schedule, lab work, whatever. I asked for an electro-surge when I got here 2 years ago! Still haven't got it. Breakdowns happen all the time. Money is tight, mostly, and each pot of money comes with a different purpose. You can't buy cotton rolls with money meant for new dental chairs. We got new money to update our antique x-ray equipment. It was bought, it sat around about a year, and was installed recently. We still can't use it because of some red tape!! And do you know who controls purchasing? NOT dentists, that's for sure. Buying decisions are not, for the most part, made by a clinician. That can be a real problem.
Does your patient want to pay for their own lab work because the Army's crown was lousy and took 8 weeks to get back from the lab? Good Luck! That's verboten! The Army is afraid the patient is going to come back and ask for the money later! You HAVE to use the Military lab. Or just don't do much fixed work, which is the choice of the majority of the dentists here.
Assistants- Oh, here's real gov't wisdom at work. The "Big Guys" have handed it down, no dental assistants are going to get over GS-4 pay unless they work in the OR or something. GS-4 is about $7.50 an hour. Well, here's the problem with that- even the local Burger King pays more than that! So assistants start working here if they can't get a job anywhere else. Then, they start looking for another job as soon as they can. As soon as a better offer comes along, POOF! they're gone! And who can blame them anyway? My assistant is still a volunteer. He's a retired pensioner, and has been offered a position working with me as a GS-2. He turned the offer down saying he would rather come and go as he pleases and not be tied down for 5 bucks an hour. I do think he will accept their offer for a GS-3 position, however. I am the lucky one. My buddy who is a contract dentist hasn't had a steady assistant since he has been here. (2 years)
Well, here's the bottom line. If you have a terminal illness or someting, by all means join the military. That 4 year commitment will last FOREVER!! But, if by chance you're not sick, then STAY AWAY! Don't even THINK about it. Why do you think I am writing these letters? Why am I going through the trouble of posting them on the internet so dental students will see what it is I have to say? I am NOT on a recruiting assignment. Recruiters have to lie. If they told the truth, then no one would join.

Zahnmann


PS As stated in my postings, your letter and my reply will be posted anonymously for everyone's benefit.


 
Just an update for anyone who cares-
Our digital X-ray unit is finally in use and it does take some nice X-rays. We haven't gotten the printing thing down quite yet se we have to diagnose on the computer screen. The printouts still look pretty bad. I am hoping we will work it out soon.
My assistant (who was a volunteer) is now hired as a GS-3 and now has to stay and work. No more come and go as he pleases. Life is now significantly better. 10 months until I get out of the Army. Yeah!
Happy Thanksgiving!
Zahnmann
 
Hey folks,
I just got the heads up that I am being watched. It seems that the big guys in the Dental Corps know about my postings. They are tracking things down to see if I used any government computers to post my messages. Well, I haven't had much access to a computer in the clinic. You have to be at least a LTC or above to get a functioning computer. At least here you do. So no jail time.
It's easy for people in the dental corps to figure out who I am. I have given plenty of clues about that. However, I stand by all that I have said. I only am telling the truth. Who is afraid of the truth? Why cover it up? I am not out to harm anyone. I just want to get the honest word out as a benefit to dental students everywhere. I don't want them to be a sitting duck like I was. They have the RIGHT to know what they are getting themselves into.
This is my last posting. I have decided to lay low until I am finished here. For those of you who have asked for the video, I am putting that project on hold until I get out. So, you'll have to wait. Good luck in your application to dental school!
Zahnmann
 
As someone who has every right to hate the military, seeing as how I was inexplicably booted from my ROTC scholarship and commissioning in the AF two months ago, and only 3 months before graduation, I can feel your pain. There are some very crappy aspects of the military that they don't tell you about when you get the free money. After all, if it were desirable to practice in the military, they wouldn't have to pay for your entire dental school for just four years of service. However, the financial numbers do work out for taking the military route. An O-3 living in Germany, with incentive pay, BAH, COLA, and tax advantages should be making the civilian equivalent of around 70,000. Consider that a solid associate's salary is 100K. That is a 30,000 cost for each year, or 120K over the term of your obligation. If your anticipated COA at a dental school is over 120K, then the HPSP may be a good move. Somewhere like USC, NYU, etc., the HPSP is a financial godsend. If you have a cheap state school, such as the UT system, its questionable at best. The military life isn't for everyone, and I am not sure if I will apply for HPSP in a couple years when I go to dental school. Probably depends on which school I attend.

I don't know the Army well, and I have never lived overseas, but wouldn't they give you a BAH allowance to pick your own place? I know that is standard procedure for an officer living CONUS at any rank. As a 2Lt, my BAH was going to be enough for a decent two bedroom apt., more than I would ever need as a single 22 year old. I am not sure how well it increases as an O-3 w/dependents, but you should be able to do better than a 2 br rathole.
 
Hey,

I assume you are out of the military since it is about 6 years later. WHat is your current status. I am thinking of going the Air force route because I was prior service Army (Enlisted) I just got my Masters in Cytology and Biosciences. I am going to take to the Dat this June. Was the time in worht it?


HI folks,
I am a 1997 graduate of a dental school in the northeast. I am now a dentist working for the military in Germany at a large clinic. I was stupid enough to listen to the recruiters while I was in dental school and I believed them. Unfortunately, only a little bit of what they sold me is actually true. So almost 4 years after I signed up, here I am, still paying the price for my decision. However, now that I have only 1 year left of obligation to the devil, I feel like I am not sorry I did it, but 2 years ago I didn't feel that way. If you are thinking of selling your soul to the devil for a scholarship or a sign-on bonus, please feel free to email me privately and I will post my response to the message board. In this age of information, there is no reason a new grad should go into the military without having all of the facts.
Anonymous dentist in Germany[/QUOTE]
 
Very interesting read and quite eye-opening. I'm doubtful you will get a response from the OP as he hasn't posted in over 5 years, though. Perhaps Uncle Sugar put the kabosh on his postings.

I am curious how similar zahnmann's feelings are to others that have taken advantage of HPSP. I am also curious how his feelings apply to today's dental students that are accumulating much more debt than before.
 
is this an isolated incident.. or do most military dentists feel the same way?
 
Wel it's not like the Dental Corps is going to be watching you. That's why in the military they have a Communications Group that watches you. The dental corps don't have time to be keeping track where your surfing the net on...only the comm squadron does.. Another thing...you should'nt be chatting or posting on forums on any government computer including the military..those are rules.

As far as functioning computers, I think you probably don't have a 2006. I know you have at least 2004 which is pretty updated. I was just in Germany AF base recently at a dental clinic doing training at it was not bad at all. The clinics are pretty updated for being government and most dentist don't even have a full patient load. Probably like 6-8 patients a day...you can't tell me I'm lying either. However, that's Air Force not Army.

Yes, the military is not for everyone. Especially all other branches excluding Air Force. But If they'll pay 300,000 dollars of my debty, I would have to be stupid not to take it.
zahnmann said:
Hey folks,
I just got the heads up that I am being watched. It seems that the big guys in the Dental Corps know about my postings. They are tracking things down to see if I used any government computers to post my messages. Well, I haven't had much access to a computer in the clinic. You have to be at least a LTC or above to get a functioning computer. At least here you do. So no jail time.
It's easy for people in the dental corps to figure out who I am. I have given plenty of clues about that. However, I stand by all that I have said. I only am telling the truth. Who is afraid of the truth? Why cover it up? I am not out to harm anyone. I just want to get the honest word out as a benefit to dental students everywhere. I don't want them to be a sitting duck like I was. They have the RIGHT to know what they are getting themselves into.
This is my last posting. I have decided to lay low until I am finished here. For those of you who have asked for the video, I am putting that project on hold until I get out. So, you'll have to wait. Good luck in your application to dental school!
Zahnmann
 
food4thots said:
is this an isolated incident.. or do most military dentists feel the same way?

Isolated incident....

If anyone wants to talk to a Air Force dentist, I would be happy to get you in contact with someone. I know several overseas and of course here in the US. So if you want to talk to one in a specific state or country, let me know and I'll get you e-mail addresses.
 
tissy said:
Isolated incident....

If anyone wants to talk to a Air Force dentist, I would be happy to get you in contact with someone. I know several overseas and of course here in the US. So if you want to talk to one in a specific state or country, let me know and I'll get you e-mail addresses.


I almost dont feel bad for people who went in for the money, then whine every chance they get because it wasnt as "cushy" as promised..
 
USAF_Dentman said:
I almost dont feel bad for people who went in for the money, then whine every chance they get because it wasnt as "cushy" as promised..


I agree with you USAF!!! People sometimes forget they actually signed up and weren't drafted.
 
im really curious as to hear what the OP thinks now, several years after. Mods, is it possible to send the OP an email?
 
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