Dentistry is too cold

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Hey, folks

I've been a pre-dental student for quite a while, now, and have never really felt kosher about it. I work extremely well with my hands, and didn't consider myself smart enough to be a doctor. I was also swayed by the seemingly easier lifestyle.
I've really faced alot about myself lately, and I just don't think dentistry is for me. There isn't really a focus on the patient's welfare or overall wellbeing, and the overall attitude is pretty cold. There's a pretty substantial "kick you when you're down" factor over there. I'm just too tired of fighting to prevent it and worrying about when to let my guard down.
After the Army, I realized that I need to be helping people heal in order to heal something inside myself personally. I'm just not getting it, now, and I don't think it's ever gonna happen through dentistry. I think I'll just be faking it, telling myself that's what I'm doing.
I need to know. I need to know if I'm smart enough, and if this is really what I'm looking for, and if I'll be able to finally have a family. I'm 28, and I'm a junior. I'm a lab animal science major (and two years of mechanical engineering school), and right now my GPA is at a 3.71. I've got honors out of the ying-yang (ALD, AKM, AC, GSD, PKP, university honors, tri-B,etc), my science GPA is probably higher than my overall. I've got a few club leadership positions, and some community service (more on the way). I haven't taken any admission exams yet, of course, and I haven't really truthfully looked at what I need to do to matriculate.

If anybody can help me, I'd really appreciate it. I know I need to look further into the admission requirements, and I will. I just need to know if I'll be able to make it, and what kind of future I have to look forward to.
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If you have enough intelligence/work ethic to get a 3.71, then chances are you're smart enough for med school. The average matriculant GPA is something like 3.6 I believe, so I think you're safe.
 
More to clarify:
My pre-reqs will be completed by next fall, and I have A's in most of them.

I know I need to search more, please don't beat me up about it. I've been focusing on dental school this entire time, and suddenly tonight the idea of it makes me feel like vomiting. It's like swimming with sharks. Sleazy sharks.
I shot alot of people while I was in the Army, and I figure that if I can help at least that many people, that I'll be okay. I shot a guy in the knee one time, all that bravado/movie stuff led me to think it was a good idea. Now, I can't stop thinking about fixing the guy's knee. Shot a guy in the liver, can't stop thinking about what part of his liver was hit, or what kind of damage it did, how it upset the body chemistry, or if he ever lived past it. It's just not satisfying enough to pull and drill teeth, anymore.
 
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More to clarify:
My pre-reqs will be completed by next fall, and I have A's in most of them.

I know I need to search more, please don't beat me up about it. I've been focusing on dental school this entire time, and suddenly tonight the idea of it makes me feel like vomiting. It's like swimming with sharks. Sleazy sharks.
I shot alot of people while I was in the Army, and I figure that if I can help at least that many people, that I'll be okay. I shot a guy in the knee one time, all that bravado/movie stuff led me to think it was a good idea. Now, I can't stop thinking about fixing the guy's knee. Shot a guy in the liver, can't stop thinking about what part of his liver was hit, or what kind of damage it did, how it upset the body chemistry, or if he ever lived past it. It's just not satisfying enough to pull and drill teeth, anymore.
 
I've read about the allopathic/osteopathic differences, but I'm not sure if it's serious. I'm not trying to get a debate started. In fact, if one starts, then I'll go to the other side. I would like to know, though, which one that I belong in. I read that DO's are more socioemotional, and I'm not sure if that's me or not.
 
I've read about the allopathic/osteopathic differences, but I'm not sure if it's serious. I'm not trying to get a debate started. In fact, if one starts, then I'll go to the other side. I would like to know, though, which one that I belong in. I read that DO's are more socioemotional, and I'm not sure if that's me or not.
 
how long ago were you in the army? i ask because i have a friend who is struggling with self/emotions after multiple tours and many targets, etc. Make sure of who you really are as you make these big decisions. as far as do vs. md, don't worry about it...both will get you where you need to go. you can always apply to both, then go where you feel the best fit/get accepted. you may not have a choice in the matter depending on the process. However...

sounds like you have the drive to put in the studying for the MCAT. You've already got a great GPA. if the pre-reqs will be completed by next fall then you are mostly set. study, take the test in the spring before the app cycle starts (like in march or april, so you have time to retake if necessary), and then re-evaluate. if Family is a consideration you'll have to decide for yourself. you'll be embarking on a long road. 28 now, then you'd be 29 when you'd matriculate, depending on your bday. you'll have 4 years of school then 3-7 (ish) for residency/fellowship. all those years will likely be tough on your time & energy. if it's what you want out of life...sure do it. weigh the options and do some shadowing. make sure it is what you want to do before you start down the path.

edited due to additional posts by OP
 
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Wladziu said:
I've read about the allopathic/osteopathic differences, but I'm not sure if it's serious. I'm not trying to get a debate started. In fact, if one starts, then I'll go to the other side. I would like to know, though, which one that I belong in. I read that DO's are more socioemotional, and I'm not sure if that's me or not.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's serious. From what I've heard, the differences were much more stark back when the osteopathic movement started, but by this point in history the two fields are pretty similar. In any case, I don't see why only osteopaths can "cure the whole person" or whatever their mantra is. It's not like you can't be an empathetic physician as an MD.

Also, it seems like the reason for you disliking dentistry is a new one. I would suggest thinking it over for a few days before you make a definite decision. Also, I suggest trying to find an opportunity to shadow a physician (basically follow him/her around for awhile and see what they do on a daily basis). For medicine it's definitely necessary to do research on the field to make sure it's something that you're interested in, because of the tremendous time commitment required, as the above poster alluded to.
 
To be honest, there's really not a whole lot of difference between the requirements for medical school and dental school. The only real differences are who you shadow, what admissions test you take, and which application service you use to apply.

As for whether you've got what it takes to make it through, it seems like your grades are good enough, and if you made it through the Army, I think you can take whatever an overworked attending can throw at you.
 
Thank you.
And, stooges, I've been sitting on the fence about it for a while, and just went with dentistry, like I said, because I felt I was better with my hands and had a hard time with medical terminology last spring. But, thank you, yes, I am going to think about it much harder for a while. I just really need some help, maybe some support or something. I'm really used to people treating me like crap, and I'm scared ****less of going into something where I don't belong AGAIN!

I've never gone to a doctor often, and got a chance to see their personalities. I'm worried about being outcast. I'm not exactly "high class". I'm going to try to shadow, like suggested, but I'm worried I'll just be wasting my time. The last time I shadowed a dentist, I got kicked out because I wore jeans when I came right from class. I had a polo shirt, and nice shoes, I just like jeans.
 
Get some medically based clinical in too when you can because you need to demonstrate that you know what you are getting yourself into.

And you might want to seek help on the army guilt thing, it sounds like you may have a touch of PTSS.
 
I agree with the guilt thing, I hope this isn't as much a way to relieve any guilt as much a realization that you want to do something for other people, or else you may not be content with yourself in the long run. I hope that made some sense, lol.

On the shadowing note though, wearing jeans is not a good idea. Since you will be following a professional around, it would be a good idea to look professional. This would mean dress pants, a dress shirt, and probably a tie. Of course, you can ask the physician about what they expect you to wear, but it's not an unreasonable request.
 
You just sold me, chess.
After a year as a pre-dent, people still don't get that. In fact, I just got ran out of there for it.
But, thank you, I'm working on it. I don't really wanna talk anymore about it.

I'm going to find any clinical experience that I can get around here, shouldn't be a problem.

I just noticed your post, oldblue. What you said to make sure of -- that's exactly what I'm trying to do. It's not very easy. Ha ha
That's exactly what I was hoping about DO/MD. It seems like I shouldn't worry about it, then. Like they say in dental: the best school is the one you actually get into.
Do you get paid for residency, though, like I heard? I've been promising my wife that we could have a baby after dental school, and I don't want to take that away from her.
 
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Yeah, you get paid for residency, but per hour it's less than minimum wage. You're working something to the effect of 80 hour weeks, so it's probably not the best time if you want some quality time with the family.
 
Stooges:
Yes, it made perfect sense to me. I want to do something "for" people. I always have, but the guilt has just spurred me into it (instead of my previous career). I understand exactly what you're saying, that it's not a great idea. The guilt will eventually subside, of course, and then I'd be left out in the cold again. But, no, I can feel this. It just feels good, it feels right. Like down in my bones.

I was a little worried before about picking a career based on feeling. I picked my last one based on patriotism, and that feeling didn't get me very far. (Just a joke, fellas.)

The only thing about pants, stooges, is that I'm so dang skinny. I've got a 28" waist, and its just embarrassing in slacks. Not a big deal, though. I'll tough it out. Hahaha!
I can wear a tie, though? Cool! I never get to wear ties!
 
80 hr days, huh? I guess the spouse and I have a little to chat about, then.

I've heard some real horror stories about residencies. What makes you believe you can do it? I need a little inspiration. Are you just pushing yourself through because it's what you want to do?
Work itself doesn't bother me, or the hours. I'm just worried I'm not smart enough.
 
I'm gonna go check out an ER, see if there are any bored doctors around. Thanks guys.


Please keep posting. I'll read them a little later.
Again, thanks.
 
Yeah, I thought wearing ties would be cool too, then I wore them a couple times a few weeks in a row, and it got old real quick haha, but that's just me.

But yeah, go ahead and do some research about the profession if you're interested. Just remember, you should do both clinical volunteering and shadowing. They are not the same. Clinical volunteering is for you to help other people and make sure you enjoy it/demonstrate to medical schools that you enjoy it. Shadowing is just for your knowledge, so it does not count as any sort of clinical volunteering/helping people kind of thing. This is also something that you're doing to make sure you want to do it and to demonstrate to schools that you've researched the profession.
 
Socioemotional...? I'm not sure what you got from reading SDN but how about shadowing a doctor to see for yourself? Volunteer in a hospital, clinic, etc.. What you need right now is a better understanding about medicine before you decide to ditch dentistry. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "sleazy sharks", but dentistry and medical school are both very competitive. Instead of trying to go to medicine, how about getting some psychological counseling? You really need to explore what is troubling you.

BTW A toothache can be far more painful than a gunshot wound. Also dentistry isn't cold. It really depends on your personality. Did you volunteer at a dental clinic? My family dentist is a pretty nice guy. We get more talking done during our cleaning appointment than most family doc visits I went to (and family medicine is where you are supposed to know your patient ... in 5-10 minutes).
 
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No, I got that off some website somewhere, a while back. Yes, I do need a better understanding of medicine, I'm gonna start shadowing. Today, if I can.
The "sleazy sharks" thing isn't the best thing to say, I know. There are great people in dentistry. Unfortunately, there are so many that aren't.. it scares the crap out of me. I did volunteer at a clinic for quite a while, and that's all that I really got out of it. It may upset some people that I said that, which is unfortunate. But, I'm not really in a mood to start defending myself at the moment. I've been up all night thinking about all of this, and listening to people tell me how screwed up I am.

Thank you for all the concern about my psyche, I'm getting counseling and doing the best that I can. Can we PLEASE not talk about it anymore?


When you say that medicine is competitive.....
I know it's competitive in school and trying to get in, but what's it like in practice? Obviously I need to shadow in order to get a full understanding, but can anyone give me a summation so I can at least have a whim to entertain?

I appreciate the help.
 
Don't know if I came across too strongly. I'm bouncing btw a similar thread on the allopathic side; I think I got this one confused with the other.
 
Tasty, tasty knowledge.

You hit on the two subjects that I'm the most wary of, Floja. Those being- keeping myself up to date with journals and such, and tactile manipulation vs "brain power". I read a few articles/journals from time to time out of interest. I'm worried about missing something that I could have read, though, that would have helped me help somebody. Dentists have told me that working with the handpiece gets incredibly dull and repetitive, and from what I've seen, the interest lies in the more difficult cases and running your practice efficiently. I do love to work with my hands, however, and would love to somehow merge the two worlds. Is there any sort of perfect world like that, outside of surgery (I probably won't make it into that)?

I know they're not all sleazy. There are just so many that are in the field just to make a buck, I'm wary of nearly everybody in dentistry. So many dentists now are focusing on purely cosmetic purposes, and things are so snobbish. Guys talking patients into full mouth restorations for $10k. I don't understand that sort of thing, it's disgusting to me. I don't want to find myself doing things like that one day, but it such a growing trend in the community. That's my personal view, and not worth very much.

You all are being very, very helpful. I need insight on these things badly. I'm loathing being so disorganized like this, with my time running so short.
 
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Well first, DO=MD with the exception of OMM. You will get people who say that its not or that its a lesser degree (most of this info from pre-meds or maybe some gunner medical students) but once you start shadowing you will find there they really isn't any difference between the two.
As for your stats, your gpa is very good so couple that with a decent MCAT (27 or better) and some volunteering including some clinical experience then you would be good to go as far as applying to DO schools.

Good Luck
 
Hey man, I don't think what you're saying is very farfetched at all. My personal experience with physicians and dentists indeed tends to support your assertion that dentists are "colder" (although that could likely be erroneous simply because I haven't known very many dentists).

Also, while it could be argued that DOs are theoretically more "socioemotional" than MDs overall, much of what I've read on these boards and elsewhere seems to imply that that characteristic depends more on the individual DO/MD than anything else.

Most of all, however, give yourself a bit more credit in the intelligence department. It certainly doesn't take more raw brainpower to become a doctor than a dentist. In fact, I think I remember reading somewhere that the average stats for entering dental students are higher than for MD/DO students (But dentists also apparently have more debt on average, and their suicide rate is higher...go figure) Anyway, your GPA is certainly competitive for either type of professional school, and I think you have a great shot at medical school if you put in a solid performance on the MCAT.

Lastly, it's perfectly normal to have these types of "reality checks" along the way during this whole process (I've had a couple myself), and they're not indicative of some sort of "mental instability" or anything. I think the remarks made by one of the respondents above are rather brash and mean in this context, and typical of the types of snarky remarks that some pre-meds seem to feel they need to make to other fellow pre-professional students. Trust me, you're fine.
 
I feel like you already know you can do it. I'm pretty sure you know that someone with a 3.7gpa, "honors out the ying-yang", and great EC's (as you yourself stated) are some what qualified -_- What do you want people to tell you? Do you want a pat on the back and a "you can do it, your so awesome"?


Edit: I forgot to answer your second question, what to look forwards too? You basically get to be the unsung hero. Expect to be working your butt off, sacrifice much of your time/fun/life, your family will have to sacrifice, you'll be stressed, and you'll be in debt. What you get in return, good pay(probably not for long in our economy), stable job, honor on your death bed, a noble life, self satisfaction, some prestige, and if your lucky a sexy wife (joking).
 
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I like this better. Much, much better. I can nearly feel the relief dripping off me.
I'm gonna let my family mull it over for a little while, and my wife.


Thank you all.
 
Wladziu said:
I like this better. Much, much better. I can nearly feel the relief dripping off me.
I'm gonna let my family mull it over for a little while, and my wife.


Thank you all.
Click to expand...

Forgot to add....


you can do it :)
*pat's wladziu on the back*
 
Wladziu said:
Hey, folks

I've been a pre-dental student for quite a while, now, and have never really felt kosher about it. I work extremely well with my hands, and didn't consider myself smart enough to be a doctor. I was also swayed by the seemingly easier lifestyle.
I've really faced alot about myself lately, and I just don't think dentistry is for me. There isn't really a focus on the patient's welfare or overall wellbeing, and the overall attitude is pretty cold. There's a pretty substantial "kick you when you're down" factor over there. I'm just too tired of fighting to prevent it and worrying about when to let my guard down.
After the Army, I realized that I need to be helping people heal in order to heal something inside myself personally. I'm just not getting it, now, and I don't think it's ever gonna happen through dentistry. I think I'll just be faking it, telling myself that's what I'm doing.
I need to know. I need to know if I'm smart enough, and if this is really what I'm looking for, and if I'll be able to finally have a family. I'm 28, and I'm a junior. I'm a lab animal science major (and two years of mechanical engineering school), and right now my GPA is at a 3.71. I've got honors out of the ying-yang (ALD, AKM, AC, GSD, PKP, university honors, tri-B,etc), my science GPA is probably higher than my overall. I've got a few club leadership positions, and some community service (more on the way). I haven't taken any admission exams yet, of course, and I haven't really truthfully looked at what I need to do to matriculate.

If anybody can help me, I'd really appreciate it. I know I need to look further into the admission requirements, and I will. I just need to know if I'll be able to make it, and what kind of future I have to look forward to.
Click to expand...

Dude, stick with Dental School. Are you crazy? Dentists are probably some of the most important primary care doctors in the country and have a tremendous impact on people's health in a way that most physicians do not. You go to the dentist, he fixes your problem. It's not like that in medicine at all.

Considering that dentists are well-respected, make good money, have a decent lifestyle and a useful and honorable profession which has not yet been completely amalgamated into the septic tank of entitlement and all of the ridiculous bureaucracy that is inevitable in any industry that is controlled (de facto or otherwise) by the government.

"Helping people heal." What a joke. Whatever you have inside you that needs to be "healed" is not going to be fixed by a career as a physician. Medicine is the career that will not love you back. Please see my latest blog article as I am tired of explaining it.
 
Panda Bear said:
Dude, stick with Dental School. Are you crazy? Dentists are probably some of the most important primary care doctors in the country and have a tremendous impact on people's health in a way that most physicians do not. You go to the dentist, he fixes your problem. It's not like that in medicine at all.

Considering that dentists are well-respected, make good money, have a decent lifestyle and a useful and honorable profession which has not yet been completely amalgamated into the septic tank of entitlement and all of the ridiculous bureaucracy that is inevitable in any industry that is controlled (de facto or otherwise) by the government.

"Helping people heal." What a joke. Whatever you have inside you that needs to be "healed" is not going to be fixed by a career as a physician. Medicine is the career that will not love you back. Please see my latest blog article as I am tired of explaining it.
Click to expand...

I have a question for you after reading your last blog entry. You say in the blog that if you had to choose to do it again you wouldn't. If you could go through the whole process again without the financial hardship would you do it? If you had to make your choice again, but this time you had a full ride to medical school, would it then be worth it?
 
Wladziu, nice to meet you! First of all, I'd like to say that I agree with the other posters in believing that with your current GPA and background, you'd certainly be capable of making it into medicine. My only concern is regarding your view of dentistry... I don't really have enough personal experience with dentists to tell how "sleazy" the profession is becoming, so I could be a bit misguided in what I'm going to say. However, I just wanted to emphasize the fact that every profession has its less ideal aspects, and that includes medicine. Medicine has its fair share of politics as well as a fair number of "sleazy" doctors. If you have become jaded by practicing dentists, it's possible that you may feel the same way about physicians as you experience more. Still, I don't want these comments to stop you from looking into the profession. Definitely, do some shadowing and see how it works out for you. This will be a very personal decision for you, and it might be a very rewarding one as well... I wish you the best as you consider your future career path!
 
IMO medicine is more about work ethic. Your 3.71 surely hints that you are "intelligent enough". Good luck!
 
FatherOblivion said:
I have a question for you after reading your last blog entry. You say in the blog that if you had to choose to do it again you wouldn't. If you could go through the whole process again without the financial hardship would you do it? If you had to make your choice again, but this time you had a full ride to medical school, would it then be worth it?
Click to expand...

No.
 
Panda Bear said:
No.
Click to expand...

Just out of curiosity: Do you think any part of that sentiment is due to the fact that your talent for writing/creativity is largely unexploited in medicine?

Do you think it will get better after residency?
 
Panda Bear said:
Dude, stick with Dental School. Are you crazy? Dentists are probably some of the most important primary care doctors in the country and have a tremendous impact on people's health in a way that most physicians do not. You go to the dentist, he fixes your problem. It's not like that in medicine at all.

Considering that dentists are well-respected, make good money, have a decent lifestyle and a useful and honorable profession which has not yet been completely amalgamated into the septic tank of entitlement and all of the ridiculous bureaucracy that is inevitable in any industry that is controlled (de facto or otherwise) by the government.

"Helping people heal." What a joke. Whatever you have inside you that needs to be "healed" is not going to be fixed by a career as a physician. Medicine is the career that will not love you back. Please see my latest blog article as I am tired of explaining it.
Click to expand...

Panda, do you know of any physicians out there that are both satisfied with their practice of medicine and the lifestyle it provides? From what you usually post, it sounds like every physician in the country is either miserable or overly idealistic.
 
I'm close with a guy who owns his own practice and he lives the damn life. Young and VERY hard working doctor. I guess some people hate it and some love it.
 
pianola said:
Just out of curiosity: Do you think any part of that sentiment is due to the fact that your talent for writing/creativity is largely unexploited in medicine?

Do you think it will get better after residency?
Click to expand...

Medical training blows because the hours are long, the pay is terrible, it is loaded with inefficiencies, and your time is wasted wholesale in a system set up 100 years ago by a drug addict and perpetuated ever since by inertia, greed, and spite. It is no more complicated than that.
 
stooges287 said:
Panda, do you know of any physicians out there that are both satisfied with their practice of medicine and the lifestyle it provides? From what you usually post, it sounds like every physician in the country is either miserable or overly idealistic.
Click to expand...

It's just a job for most people, one which they like or dislike to varying degrees, but still just a job that most people are pretty pleased to leave at "quitting time" and not exactly thrilled to go back to on the proverbial Monday morning (or in the case of my specialty Wednesday night) after a long weekend.
 
Uh, med school kids aren't that smart. Most of them are just hard working.
 
Be really careful OP.

Medical training is a long, painful road.

I know many happy dentists. Dental training is much easier and shorter (generally no residency) and you still make a good living.

That being said, personally I think medicine is worth it and I'm almost done with res.

As for DO/MD, everyone is being PC around here. If you want to land a competitive residency at a university program, go MD. If you have even the tiniest inkling of considering Derm/Plastics/Ortho/ENT/Urology/Optho/Rads/Anesthesia/ER, go MD and don't look back. If you are 100% sure about primary care, DO is great.
 
littlealex said:
Uh, med school kids aren't that smart. Most of them are just hard working.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure it's a great idea to respond to this, because I don't want to start some sort of major argument, but this post is a little off. I agree that diligence, hard work, and conscientiousness are probably more important than intelligence as far as getting into and succeeding in med school and beyond, but to say that "med school kids aren't that smart" is just blatantly untrue. Raw intelligence is an important factor in med school, and not only is the population of med students probably much smarter than the general population, but you'll also find some of the smartest people you've ever met in the medical profession.

To the OP: as a bunch of premeds (for the most part), we're gonna have a hard time giving you really relevant advice about the realities of the fields of dentistry and medicine, but my feeling is that if your gut really is telling you that medicine is the right thing for you, and you feel that you and your family can deal with the long years and hours, and you do lots of research to make sure, then you should go for it. But don't switch to medicine just because of your perceived "beat them when they're down" attitude of dentistry, or because it's too cold. You're likely to run into the very same sort of stuff in medicine.

Also, you don't know you won't get into surgery. You may not, but don't assume it off the bat. Plus, surgical residencies aren't always more competitive than non-surgical residencies. And if you really like working with your hands, then some sort of surgery might be exactly right for you.
 
theres someone in my class that went to dental school, hated it, dropped and luckily got excepted to med school. She said it was a lot easier though than med school in terms of information volume and scheduling (i.e free time). I just hope u realize that if u decide to go to med school and want to be successful in it and after it, ur going to lose a LOT of free time to studying. And it gets much tougher later on during clinical years and residency. That means much less time with the fam. Im not trying to discourage you or anything, just letting u know how it is. But, there is a guy here that is married with a kid and he seems to be managing fine. :luck:
 
vasca said:
If emotionally you're not feeling at the best right now as a Pre-med/Pre-dental, med school is far more demanding emotionally; courses will take you past your normal working ethic limit and you can't let personal issues interfere with your work. Just some suggestions.
Click to expand...

I would challenge you to try out a few years of dental school before saying that. Find a dual degree oral surgery resident and ask them which they thought was harder.
 
Wladziu said:
I know they're not all sleazy. There are just so many that are in the field just to make a buck, I'm wary of nearly everybody in dentistry. So many dentists now are focusing on purely cosmetic purposes, and things are so snobbish. Guys talking patients into full mouth restorations for $10k. I don't understand that sort of thing, it's disgusting to me. I don't want to find myself doing things like that one day, but it such a growing trend in the community. That's my personal view, and not worth very much.
Click to expand...

Who bleeding cares what the majority of the community is doing? If you have your personal stance on an ethical issue like this, a few years of dental school isn't going to magically change it. The decision of how you treat your patients lies solely upon you, it's not like the "standard of care" is to strongarm your patients into getting full-mouth esthetics work dodne and you'll get sued if you don't.

Additionally, 10k isn't even close to what a full mouth restoration would cost unless you're talking about a full mouth extraction and some implant retained dentures :laugh:
 
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