Dentistry not worth it. Period.

[oralcare123]

Software engineering is in fact all sunshine and rainbows right now

If CS is too boring for you, there's always other kind of engineering like electric, chemical, bio, etc.

There's plenty of careers that don't require 4 year of advance education and 400k indebtedness. If you're going to look at fields that are doing poorly right now and say "well no job is perfect" then you're going to close a lot of doors by not exploring other options

Sure, but they have hemorrhoids and it's not fun at all

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

[.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

.

 

[distressstudent]

Sure, but they have hemorrhoids and it's not fun at all

From sitting all day?
So same as a dentist?

 

[Polkadotfan]

I think the main thing to take away is to go into this with the full understanding of debt. I agree most people probably don't understand the sheer amount of debt they will (or might) take on vs their actual base pay.

Honestly, I think every job can suck depending on the office or the person.

I know new dentists who have paid all their loans within 2-3 years. I know some who are very well off within 5-10yrs of graduating with 2 offices and brand new homes with traveling often. I'm sure there are dentists who are not and are drowning in debt. I know of a few dentists who can't find good jobs and warn me of corporate dentistry. It's different per dentist and I wouldn't take one's life as a solid "this is the standard" for any dentist.

I think we as pre-dents definitely need to be aware of the debt vs income (reality), but at the same time, it's almost like we're being beat over the head with these topics if you've been on SDN long enough.

 

[zriceman]

I think the main thing to take away is to go into this with the full understanding of debt. I agree most people probably don't understand the sheer amount of debt they will (or might) take on vs their actual base pay.

Honestly, I think every job can suck depending on the office or the person.

I know new dentists who have paid all their loans within 2-3 years. I know some who are very well off within 5-10yrs of graduating with 2 offices and brand new homes with traveling often. I'm sure there are dentists who are not and are drowning in debt. I know of a few dentists who can't find good jobs and warn me of corporate dentistry. It's different per dentist and I wouldn't take one's life as a solid "this is the standard" for any dentist.

I think we as pre-dents definitely need to be aware of the debt vs income (reality), but at the same time, it's almost like we're being beat over the head with these topics if you've been on SDN long enough.

Well put.

 

[Incis0r]

Probably gonna be a #5. I would have never considered a career in dentistry if I knew for a fact I'd be taking a $500,000 loan (that's pushing $40k interest, lol...). Fortunately, my parents are willing to cover a majority of the expenses so I'm looking at around $100k debt. Still scary, but manageable.

Aww man, lucky! Are you going to give them free dental care for life? xD

I can't wait to be debt free. Once I am, I'll be buying my parents a luxurious first class trip to the destination of their choice.

 

[schmoob]

Knowing what I know now about the career of dentistry, I would have gone medical and specialize in path, rads, or anesthesia. I have a lot of family members and friends who are real doctors and they are a lot happier because they make more money for the hours they put in. Or I would have specialized in pedo because they make tons more money for the type of work they do. The money is good but not great in general dentistry. If you are an astute business person, you can be very wealthy especially with multiple offices because you hire associates to do all the dentistry and you take your cut as the boss without breaking your back. However, just because you own an office does not mean you will make more than if you are associating. My old coworker used to own 3 offices in the DFW and went back to corporate dentistry and made more money working for someone else. Another coworker of mine works prn at my office because his own office is not busy enough even after three years of opening it. He told me I made more money than him even though I am an associate with less experience than him. He is super talented and fast, too. Not every one is cut out to be a business owner. And owning isn't that great unless you really know how to manage people and office dynamics.

Go take a gander at dentaltown.com if you want to know the nitty gritty of dentistry. You'll see more dentists post on there. Also do try to go to the cheapest dental school you get accepted to. I was extremely fortunate to attend the cheapest dental school in Texas but I interviewed at schools like USC, and I really don't know how those grads do it. Monster $500K debt is debilitating for your entire future. Do not be short sighted and go to those half million debtal schools. You will rue the day you matriculated into that school once you realize you cannot afford your loan payments. I refinanced my loans via Sofi, still drive my beater 12 year old Honda, live at home, and I'm still telling you guys to be smart about money. I have met more broke a$$ dentists than I have met rich ones. No one feels sorry for us. Once taxpayers realize PAYE and IBR student loans are being forgiven to "rich doctors and dentists" it will be cut. At least real doctors can add their residency and fellowship years to the PSLF. That program is more fail safe.

Also, for the pre dents and dental students who think that the dentists on this forum who tell you the unvarnished truth about this career are unsuccessful, bitter, or just are fake dentists trying to take your spot, you are deluded. Sure, take this internet advice with a grain of salt, but please crunch the numbers. $500k debt for an income of maybe $120-$200k doesn't make financial sense. Dentistry isn't wonderful...it kinda sucks. Actually, it really sucks.

If you could do it again, you would've specialized in path, rads, or anesthesia? Why not just become a plastic surgeon in Beverly Hills? You're picking some of the most competitive specialties out there and saying those would've been your alternative? If that's the case, why didn't you try to get into ortho or OMFS out of Dental school? They pay great don't they? You would make more money for the hours you put in, wouldn't you?
With your mindset and attitude, you would've ended up with a Family Medicine residency and complained online how you should've become a dentist, because they make more money for their hours and aren't as miserable.

 

[LuckBloodandSweat]

Sometimes the salt is just too strong. Some of us know what we're getting into and some are ignorant. In due time, all will be revealed lol. As with any career, the success will vary depending on the individual and the level of motivation they have. Specializing is hard as f*ck as the wise man above me said; I know plenty of doctors and dentists and neither path is easy. A lot of doctors work 70+ hrs a week too; have fun with that lifestyle if it's what you would've rather done.

 

[schmoob]

Sometimes the salt is just too strong. Some of us know what we're getting into and some are ignorant. In due time, all will be revealed lol. As with any career, the success will vary depending on the individual and the level of motivation they have. Specializing is hard as f*ck as the wise man above me said; I know plenty of doctors and dentists and neither path is easy. A lot of doctors work 70+ hrs a week too; have fun with that lifestyle if it's what you would've rather done.

I agree. People can work 70 hours a week as a general dentist if money is tight. Who's stopping them?

 

[LuckBloodandSweat]

I agree. People can work 70 hours a week as a general dentist if money is tight. Who's stopping them?

Quite true. Also when you become a doctor, you'll accrue more interest during residency because you sure as hell won't be able to pay anything off with 40-50k/yr for 3+ yrs immediately after med school.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Quite true. Also when you become a doctor, you'll accrue more interest during residency because you sure as hell won't be able to pay anything off with 40-50k/yr for 3+ yrs immediately after med school.

That and youre either on call, or for residencies that dont have call, your schedule sucks. Every doctor i ever shadowed always said "if youre gonna do medicine you better be willing to eat, breathe, and drink medicine.. As for me I shouldve done dental or PA."


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[bco99]

It is about time another one of these threads popped up. I was getting worried because I haven't seen a new one in about 8 weeks.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using SDN mobile

 

[321931]

It is about time another one of these threads popped up. I was getting worried because I haven't seen a new one in about 8 weeks.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using SDN mobile

Well if the reoccurence is about 8 weeks or so....that say's something.

When I used to troll the forums back when I applied 2010-11, I very very very rarely recall seeing these kind of posts/amount of views/thread lengths warning peers about debt and $$$.
These are simply my opinions.

 

[bco99]

Well if the reoccurence is about 8 weeks or so....that say's something.

When I used to troll the forums back when I applied 2010-11, I very very very rarely recall seeing these kind of posts/amount of views/thread lengths warning peers about debt and $$$.

I was just exaggerating a bit too show how rediculous I think these threads are. Although rediculous they do have some good takeaways and I do appreciate someone posting their opinion on the field with a different viewpoint.



Sent from my Nexus 6P using SDN mobile

 

[frozenicecreamDMD]

Well if the reoccurence is about 8 weeks or so....that say's something.

When I used to troll the forums back when I applied 2010-11, I very very very rarely recall seeing these kind of posts/amount of views/thread lengths warning peers about debt and $$$.

yes of course because the private schools' cost of attendance, since then, have increase from low 400k to high 400k.
it is a really bad time for dentistry now.

 

[Mrhyde]

I agree with everything you said except this. I wouldn't consider medical schools either. Training is long and costly and insurance companies cutting their reimbursements. I would have chosen a career that is both personally and financially satisfying with a 4 year college degree.

Like what ?

 

[Mrhyde]

Knowing what I know now about the career of dentistry, I would have gone medical and specialize in path, rads, or anesthesia. I have a lot of family members and friends who are real doctors and they are a lot happier because they make more money for the hours they put in. Or I would have specialized in pedo because they make tons more money for the type of work they do. The money is good but not great in general dentistry. If you are an astute business person, you can be very wealthy especially with multiple offices because you hire associates to do all the dentistry and you take your cut as the boss without breaking your back. However, just because you own an office does not mean you will make more than if you are associating. My old coworker used to own 3 offices in the DFW and went back to corporate dentistry and made more money working for someone else. Another coworker of mine works prn at my office because his own office is not busy enough even after three years of opening it. He told me I made more money than him even though I am an associate with less experience than him. He is super talented and fast, too. Not every one is cut out to be a business owner. And owning isn't that great unless you really know how to manage people and office dynamics.

Go take a gander at dentaltown.com if you want to know the nitty gritty of dentistry. You'll see more dentists post on there. Also do try to go to the cheapest dental school you get accepted to. I was extremely fortunate to attend the cheapest dental school in Texas but I interviewed at schools like USC, and I really don't know how those grads do it. Monster $500K debt is debilitating for your entire future. Do not be short sighted and go to those half million debtal schools. You will rue the day you matriculated into that school once you realize you cannot afford your loan payments. I refinanced my loans via Sofi, still drive my beater 12 year old Honda, live at home, and I'm still telling you guys to be smart about money. I have met more broke a$$ dentists than I have met rich ones. No one feels sorry for us. Once taxpayers realize PAYE and IBR student loans are being forgiven to "rich doctors and dentists" it will be cut. At least real doctors can add their residency and fellowship years to the PSLF. That program is more fail safe.

Also, for the pre dents and dental students who think that the dentists on this forum who tell you the unvarnished truth about this career are unsuccessful, bitter, or just are fake dentists trying to take your spot, you are deluded. Sure, take this internet advice with a grain of salt, but please crunch the numbers. $500k debt for an income of maybe $120-$200k doesn't make financial sense. Dentistry isn't wonderful...it kinda sucks. Actually, it really sucks.

Hi thank you for replying and for the long answer. I am going to refer to things mentioned here :
" Also do try to go to the cheapest dental school you get accepted to. I was extremely fortunate to attend the cheapest dental school in Texas but I interviewed at schools like USC, and I really don't know how those grads do it. Monster $500K debt is debilitating for your entire future. Do not be short sighted and go to those half million debtal schools. You will rue the day you matriculated into that school once you realize you cannot afford your loan payments. "
I have a few questions
1) How old were you when you started dental school, and how old are you now?
2) What was your total debt when you finished dental school?
3) What year did you finish dental school?
4.) You are a General Dentist with no specialty right ?


"I refinanced my loans via Sofi, still drive my beater 12 year old Honda, live at home, and I'm still telling you guys to be smart about money. I have met more broke a$$ dentists than I have met rich ones. No one feels sorry for us. Once taxpayers realize PAYE and IBR student loans are being forgiven to "rich doctors and dentists" it will be cut. At least real doctors can add their residency and fellowship years to the PSLF. That program is more fail safe."
I have a few questions
1.) I am not in dental school yet so what do you mean by : ""Once taxpayers realize PAYE and IBR student loans are being forgiven to "rich doctors and dentists" it will be cut. "" are you talking about having loans forgiven after paying minimums for X number of years? if you are, then dont poor doctors and dentist get the same benefit as the rich ones ?

"" but please crunch the numbers. $500k debt for an income of maybe $120-$200k doesn't make financial sense. Dentistry isn't wonderful...it kinda sucks. Actually, it really sucks.""
I have a few questions
1.) You said you drive a honda and still live at home? do you mean with your parents ? if you do, then doesn't that mean your saving a lot of money since you don't have to pay rent ?
2.) Besides you saying going to the cheapest dental school, do you recommend anything else in order to have the least amount of school debt?


---> Also do you work as a corporate dentist or in your own office? Whatever your answer is , I want to know what your work schedule is? like Monday-Friday 8am-5pm for example ...

 

[frozenicecreamDMD]

I am not the OP but I have read this thread since the start and I will take a dab at answering ur questions

Hi thank you for replying and for the long answer. I am going to refer to things mentioned here :
" Also do try to go to the cheapest dental school you get accepted to. I was extremely fortunate to attend the cheapest dental school in Texas but I interviewed at schools like USC, and I really don't know how those grads do it. Monster $500K debt is debilitating for your entire future. Do not be short sighted and go to those half million debtal schools. You will rue the day you matriculated into that school once you realize you cannot afford your loan payments. "
I have a few questions
1) How old were you when you started dental school, and how old are you now? considering how he is bitter making 150k doing work he is not enjoying. he probably entered dental school pretty young, 22 yr old? graduate at 26? so now he is probably 30-33yr old
2) What was your total debt when you finished dental school? he doesnt disclose, but I pretty much bet on 80% he attended one of the expensive private school. The ones that attend the public dental school don't tend to go on here and make these threads.
3) What year did you finish dental school? He said he finished in 2012, so he probably started in 2008.
4.) You are a General Dentist with no specialty right ? Yes, he is a GP with no specialty


"I refinanced my loans via Sofi, still drive my beater 12 year old Honda, live at home, and I'm still telling you guys to be smart about money. I have met more broke a$$ dentists than I have met rich ones. No one feels sorry for us. Once taxpayers realize PAYE and IBR student loans are being forgiven to "rich doctors and dentists" it will be cut. At least real doctors can add their residency and fellowship years to the PSLF. That program is more fail safe."
I have a few questions
1.) I am not in dental school yet so what do you mean by : ""Once taxpayers realize PAYE and IBR student loans are being forgiven to "rich doctors and dentists" it will be cut. "" are you talking about having loans forgiven after paying minimums for X number of years? if you are, then dont poor doctors and dentist get the same benefit as the rich ones ?
you have to understand PAYE/IRB in and out to understand what he means. so for PAYE and IBR lets say you have a principle of 400k, you pay 20% of your income of 150k (after tax, so that income will be around 110k and you pay around 22-23k). Since most federal loan is at 5-6%, you are paying mostly interest and doesnt make a dent to the principle amount. but for a lot of cases, many people make less payment to IRB/PAYE with less income (like 120k, so 18k payment) this means you pay less than what the interest accrue per year. this means your principle will grow bigger every year because the accrued interest becomes capitalized (this means it adds back to the princpiple, and the interest starts on the bigger amount). then 20 years go by, your debt actually balloons due to the interest. 400k-500k will becomes 1.1 millions while you pay around 300k with ur 20% income annually. this means the amount you are forgiven 1.1 mil - 300k = 700-800k. But this 800k is tax as taxable income, so lets say max tax bracket is 40%, you will have to pay around 300k. so at the end, you pay around 300k during 20 years and 300k tax bomb, which is 600k, which is very very nice because your principle is 400-500k in the beginning already. however, the amount you are forgiven, 500k?, who will pay? the tax payers. whooohoooo

if you work in non profit government sanctioned places (most hospitals are), you can make 20% of income payment for 10 years and the rest is forgiven without tax. thus, because most doctors residence training is 6-7 yrs, they can start IRB/PAYE in residence and work for 3 years in hospital and wipe their loans away. the taxpayer suckers will cover the rest. In average people's perspectives, there are NO poor doctors and dentists. The poor ones are ones that cant manage finance properly.

"" but please crunch the numbers. $500k debt for an income of maybe $120-$200k doesn't make financial sense. Dentistry isn't wonderful...it kinda sucks. Actually, it really sucks.""
I have a few questions
1.) You said you drive a honda and still live at home? do you mean with your parents ? if you do, then doesn't that mean your saving a lot of money since you don't have to pay rent ?
2.) Besides you saying going to the cheapest dental school, do you recommend anything else in order to have the least amount of school debt?

I am kind of dead sure he doesnt drive honda as he says he leases car. Who leases a honda?
and no, other than the cheapest dental school, you will end up paying 400-500k anyways in total cost of attendance this does not include undergrad debt.
---> Also do you work as a corporate dentist or in your own office? Whatever your answer is , I want to know what your work schedule is? like Monday-Friday 8am-5pm for example ...

this guy makes 600$ a day (from reading the post I assume) or 150k (he mentioned) which is pretty high, near the median dentist salary already. I don't know what he is complaining about.

 

[Charles_Darwin]

Let's wrap this up family:

Everyone has different monetary and career goals. Some want a lot, some are satisfied with a little. It is selfish to assume that since you don't like your career path, no one else should either. Similarly, it is wrong to insist that everyone should think of dentistry as the perfect career path just because you enjoy it. No matter what career you pick, there will be happy and frustrated professionals in that field.

This thread isn't going to change anyone's career path, and isn't a very healthy debate. We should focus instead on improving this community with happier posts! This is a very loving community, and most people are here to support one another

 

[LuckBloodandSweat]

Let's wrap this up family:

Everyone has different monetary and career goals. Some want a lot, some are satisfied with a little. It is selfish to assume that since you don't like your career path, no one else should either. Similarly, it is wrong to insist that everyone should think of dentistry as the perfect career path just because you enjoy it. No matter what career you pick, there will be happy and frustrated professionals in that field.

This thread isn't going to change anyone's career path, and isn't a very healthy debate. We should focus instead on improving this community with happier posts! This is a very loving community, and most people are here to support one another

Haters gonna hate my friend. There is too much salt to go around in this world for these threads to ever end.

 

[321931]

If you guys want to see the reality of dentistry, sign up on dentaltown. Inform yourself and make sure this is what you really want.
These are simply my opinions.

 

[cacazor]

I can't read anymore. I personally don't advocate going into any school over 200k
But it's ridiculous to see that anyone would recommend any current college students to go into medicine for a better financial situation

 

[nowaysurvey]

This thread, I don't even...

Let's talk about Pharmacy shall we? Because we all know it's a joke since they make six digits counting pills all day and don't have to get their hands dirty!

You know, I have always been jealous of my friends who are currently P4's and started pharmacy school only after two years of undergrad (whereas I'm not even in dental school yet, and if I was, I'd probably be a D2 despite being of the same age). No matter how I think of it, they have a TWO year advantage over me and not to mention, their tuition of roughly 33k a year (private) would be comparable to my in-state tuition at my dream dental school (public). Heck I'm sure becoming a Pharmacist requires no where as much education, sweat, and tears as becoming a dentist or a doctor, yet they make a comparable salary (probably not as much, but SIX DIGITS nevertheless). Better yet, they don't have to sit hunched all day, look at dirty mouths, get their hands dirty, deal with feisty children, mess with blood, deal with emergencies, etc, etc, etc.

**Googles "is pharmacy worth it"...**

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/pharmacy-worst-career-possible.892228/

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/why-is-pharmacy-a-bad-career-choice.1184063/

http://www.indeed.com/forum/job/pharmacist/Don-t-become-Pharmacist/t248681

Seriously, take a moment to read what some have said in those threads.

What?! How on earth are they having complaints about being a Pharmacist? Comparing themselves to doctors and dentists, they see themselves as slaves, and heck some even wished that if they knew what they were going to get themselves into, they would pursue medicine or dentistry from the beginning without any hesitation.

Now, I'm mind blown.

Okay crap, let's google is medicine / psychiatry / optometry / veterinary / physical therapy / etc worth it. Guess what? I see 100s of similar threads.

Geewhiz, I don't even know anymore.

Best job ever if you asked me? Youtuber or game streamer. Did you guys know some kids make tons of money just being themselves by broadcasting themselves to the world or streaming themselves playing games online? If they have a decent size audience, you can expect some of these kids making 40-70k+ no problem. Of course, there are also PLENTY making 100k-1M+, and I'm not even joking. Moreover, that's website ad revenue ALONE. I'm not talking about sponsorships (or to mention all the free stuff they get) yet, which can be 2-5x more than what they make ad revenue-wise. But of course, we sometimes see these people complaining as well. Like wtf?

Seriously guys, I never once thought reality was going to be all ponies and rainbows. I can't believe some people here have that sort of mentality about becoming a dentist or any healthcare profession in general. But every job will have its pros and cons, and dentistry is no exception to that. People NEED to realize that.

**Googles best healthcare professions**, like legit, many of these ranks dentists in the top ten, better yet a good bit lists them either #1 or #2 (if it's not #1, it's orthodontists...but you know, they are dentists as well).

 

[8_man]

Aww man, lucky! Are you going to give them free dental care for life? xD

I can't wait to be debt free. Once I am, I'll be buying my parents a luxurious first class trip to the destination of their choice.

Of course haha. Free dental care, and yeh know, maybe throw in a Beemer or two while I'm at it.

 

[Screwtape]

I can't read anymore. I personally don't advocate going into any school over 200k
But it's ridiculous to see that anyone would recommend any current college students to go into medicine for a better financial situation

I can't read these sweeping generalizations anymore. There are plenty of people with (successful) dentist parents who are alum at expensive private dental schools who still push their kids to go to the same expensive private dental school. They will be fine. I'm not telling people to go to an expensive school, I'm just saying every situation is different. There are so many generalizations thrown around here when dentistry cannot be generalized like that. There are so many differences in income, practices, patient populations, etc within a city let alone within the entire country. $500k in loans for a DDS could be a much better investment than someone who did HPSP and didn't have to take out any loans. Would that be the norm? Probably not, but definitely in the realm of possibility.

 

[Mrhyde]

This thread, I don't even...

Let's talk about Pharmacy shall we? Because we all know it's a joke since they make six digits counting pills all day and don't have to get their hands dirty!

You know, I have always been jealous of my friends who are currently P4's and started pharmacy school only after two years of undergrad (whereas I'm not even in dental school yet, and if I was, I'd probably be a D2 despite being of the same age). No matter how I think of it, they have a TWO year advantage over me and not to mention, their tuition of roughly 33k a year (private) would be comparable to my in-state tuition at my dream dental school (public). Heck I'm sure becoming a Pharmacist requires no where as much education, sweat, and tears as becoming a dentist or a doctor, yet they make a comparable salary (probably not as much, but SIX DIGITS nevertheless). Better yet, they don't have to sit hunched all day, look at dirty mouths, get their hands dirty, deal with feisty children, mess with blood, deal with emergencies, etc, etc, etc.

**Googles "is pharmacy worth it"...**

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/pharmacy-worst-career-possible.892228/

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/why-is-pharmacy-a-bad-career-choice.1184063/

http://www.indeed.com/forum/job/pharmacist/Don-t-become-Pharmacist/t248681

Seriously, take a moment to read what some have said in those threads.

What?! How on earth are they having complaints about being a Pharmacist? Comparing themselves to doctors and dentists, they see themselves as slaves, and heck some even wished that if they knew what they were going to get themselves into, they would pursue medicine or dentistry from the beginning without any hesitation.

Now, I'm mind blown.

Okay crap, let's google is medicine / psychiatry / optometry / veterinary / physical therapy / etc worth it. Guess what? I see 100s of similar threads.

Geewhiz, I don't even know anymore.

Best job ever if you asked me? Youtuber or game streamer. Did you guys know some kids make tons of money just being themselves by broadcasting themselves to the world or streaming themselves playing games online? If they have a decent size audience, you can expect some of these kids making 40-70k+ no problem. Of course, there are also PLENTY making 100k-1M+, and I'm not even joking. Moreover, that's website ad revenue ALONE. I'm not talking about sponsorships (or to mention all the free stuff they get) yet, which can be 2-5x more than what they make ad revenue-wise. But of course, we sometimes see these people complaining as well. Like wtf?

Seriously guys, I never once thought reality was going to be all ponies and rainbows. I can't believe some people here have that sort of mentality about becoming a dentist or any healthcare profession in general. But every job will have its pros and cons, and dentistry is no exception to that. People NEED to realize that.

**Googles best healthcare professions**, like legit, many of these ranks dentists in the top ten, better yet a good bit lists them either #1 or #2 (if it's not #1, it's orthodontists...but you know, they are dentists as well).

LMFAO you gave one amazing answer hahahahaha on the links you posted everyones saying they should have picked being a dentist or doctor, your right



---- Do you guys think corporate dentist only work generally like 3-4 times a week? would a dentist be able to have another job on the off days you think ? Because I would be down for that since I want to knock my debt out whenever I become a dentist. And obvisouly the side job would be making more then $500 a day or slightly under , since it would make no sense doing a low paying side job when I could work as a dentist more days. It is also to break the routine up while getting paid roughly the same.

 

[oralcare123]

From sitting all day?
So same as a dentist?

Where have you seen a sitting all the time dentist?

 

[blahjoon]

Dunno, one of my siblings who is a dentist and five years younger than I am, is in his second year of practice. After only one year of GPR, is clearing significantly more money (and in NYC, to boot) at 28 than I am a few years into my job at one of the three elite management consulting firms, which is filled to the brim with crazy gunner HBS and Wharton MBA grads.
I agree that a lot of dental grads suffer because they aren't good at sales or don't know how to hustle, but if you do have any business acumen, it can be an amazingly lucrative profession.

 

[Dante60]

My position on this is that it's a great profession if you can manage your student loans.

If you're graduating with north of 250k student debt (all inclusive), don't do it. Seriously. There's too much competition and in most markets incomes are declining with years not increasing. Add to that the fact that there are more dental schools opening and more foreign dentists coming in. It makes it a very nasty environment for new grads. If your student loans are too high, you're going to have a difficult time securing a practice as banks will reject some of the smaller and mid size practices for not cash-flowing enough (ask me how many practices I lost for this reason). At the end of the day, I'd strongly advise you to try to keep your student loans as low as possible. That kind of monkey on your back will be like trying to practice missing a few fingers. For some, it will motivate, but for most it will be a real burden.

At the end of the day I have no horse in this battle. I'm doing fine. I make about 250k a year and pay off like half of my net to student loans. It really sucks. I'd much rather get paid less and have no student loans and here's why: I wouldn't have had to kill 8 years of my life doing dental school and then specializing. In any case, I really really feel for the current generation of incoming dentists/pre-dents. 430k student loans to go to Tufts is not worth it. The quality of education does NOT equate the cost of education.

Best of luck.

 

[LuckBloodandSweat]

My position on this is that it's a great profession if you can manage your student loans.

If you're graduating with north of 250k student debt (all inclusive), don't do it. Seriously. There's too much competition and in most markets incomes are declining with years not increasing. Add to that the fact that there are more dental schools opening and more foreign dentists coming in. It makes it a very nasty environment for new grads. If your student loans are too high, you're going to have a difficult time securing a practice as banks will reject some of the smaller and mid size practices for not cash-flowing enough (ask me how many practices I lost for this reason). At the end of the day, I'd strongly advise you to try to keep your student loans as low as possible. That kind of monkey on your back will be like trying to practice missing a few fingers. For some, it will motivate, but for most it will be a real burden.

At the end of the day I have no horse in this battle. I'm doing fine. I make about 250k a year and pay off like half of my net to student loans. It really sucks. I'd much rather get paid less and have no student loans and here's why: I wouldn't have had to kill 8 years of my life doing dental school and then specializing. In any case, I really really feel for the current generation of incoming dentists/pre-dents. 430k student loans to go to Tufts is not worth it. The quality of education does NOT equate the cost of education.

Best of luck.

Nice input. Thank you for the info

 

[Steins;Gate]

Apologies for reviving this thread but as a fellow D2 from Canada, I guess the US is a really different landscape for dentistry.

In Canada, the schooling is significantly cheaper. I go to a school that is about 90K for all 4 years. When factoring in parental support, jobs that I worked (my first job was less than $10/hr in the sun so yeah it gave me lots of perspective about the value of the dollar), research grants/positions, scholarships, government grants - i am coming out of school debt-free. But I worked pretty darn hard to pay more than half of that tuition and same goes for my undergrad. There was no free lunch. I was aware how expensive professional school was and should it have been even more expensive like in the US, I would have really reconsidered it OR I would have 100% went to the cheapest school since that's all I would want to fork over without any regrets of doing something else.

In Canada, we're also mostly single-payer FFS. We do have some deductions based on patients with disability plans but for the most part, our fees are like the American FFS fees. There is definite saturation in the major cities and practices in Toronto are 100% of their production (yes you read that right) BUT they still sell like hotcakes. If you move out further, it gets better. Much better. And the suburbs in Canada and really the whole country in general is beautiful. Moving away from the big cities is fine and would be a boon financially. I know of a dentist who is both francophone and anglophone and an hour from Ottawa and an hour from Montreal who is doing very well. Why? No one wants to work there but to be honest, it's a great place that is underserved and still driv-able to the big cities. There are many pockets like this in Canada.

Alright so back to dentistry in general. Yes, I'm still a student but I can say that financially, it's not easy starting off and once you're established - it's all up to you. You need to be wise about location, advertising, scope of procedures, chairside manner, personality, etc. etc. What makes dentistry great is also what can be a nightmare for people - dentistry is what you make of it. You could make 100K or you could make 800K. There are no rules to this field. That's what makes it exciting. You can choose where to work, how to work, who to work for, etc. Trust when I say that our medical counterparts have it tougher. Their schooling is not only longer but they are at the mercy of the government. There are hospital politics, everyone has a chip on their back, and until you find a job, you will be "auditioning" for residency, for a fellowship, for a job. Not a single comment can be bad on your record. You need to protect that battleship of yours. I heard posters here talking about anes, path, etc. Looks great from an outsider's perspective BUT anes is running into issues of CRNA encroachment and path has very little autonomy these days. Yes they pay well but at the same time, these jobs are also not for everyone. Some people prefer the more surgical side of things, some people prefer patient interaction, some people prefer private practice, some people prefer the business side of things. Once again, dentistry is all about "fit" and what you make of it.

I thought long and hard about medicine before I went into dentistry. I had the academics and the CV but felt that dentistry was the better fit. Am I offended you said this field isn't worth it? No. You're valid in some respects but this doesn't apply to everyone. I respect your opinions but I know what I'm getting myself into. I have 0 student debt, I have a few opportunities and one (very established) to transition from associateship into ownership before I even applied to dentistry and I am aiming to keep working hard no matter what happens. I am grateful to pursue dentistry, which in my mind and for me is the best gig I could have picked in healthcare. And no matter what happens, I'll put my head down and work hard and not complain with the cards I've been dealt.

Cheers

 

[Alpha Centauri]

My position on this is that it's a great profession if you can manage your student loans.

If you're graduating with north of 250k student debt (all inclusive), don't do it. Seriously. There's too much competition and in most markets incomes are declining with years not increasing. Add to that the fact that there are more dental schools opening and more foreign dentists coming in. It makes it a very nasty environment for new grads. If your student loans are too high, you're going to have a difficult time securing a practice as banks will reject some of the smaller and mid size practices for not cash-flowing enough (ask me how many practices I lost for this reason). At the end of the day, I'd strongly advise you to try to keep your student loans as low as possible. That kind of monkey on your back will be like trying to practice missing a few fingers. For some, it will motivate, but for most it will be a real burden.

At the end of the day I have no horse in this battle. I'm doing fine. I make about 250k a year and pay off like half of my net to student loans. It really sucks. I'd much rather get paid less and have no student loans and here's why: I wouldn't have had to kill 8 years of my life doing dental school and then specializing. In any case, I really really feel for the current generation of incoming dentists/pre-dents. 430k student loans to go to Tufts is not worth it. The quality of education does NOT equate the cost of education.

Best of luck.

Finding a school that costs less than 250k is insanely difficult though

 

[Incis0r]

Their schooling is not only longer but they are at the mercy of the government. There are hospital politics, everyone has a chip on their back, and until you find a job, you will be "auditioning" for residency, for a fellowship, for a job. Not a single comment can be bad on your record. You need to protect that battleship of yours. I heard posters here talking about anes, path, etc. Looks great from an outsider's perspective BUT anes is running into issues of CRNA encroachment and path has very little autonomy these days. Yes they pay well but at the same time, these jobs are also not for everyone. Some people prefer the more surgical side of things, some people prefer patient interaction, some people prefer private practice, some people prefer the business side of things. Once again, dentistry is all about "fit" and what you make of it.

I love your post, and thank you for sharing your experience with us.
I've also read that it's almost impossible to find a primary care physician in certain parts of Canada (example Victoria, B.C.). Any thoughts on that?

I wish I could practice in Canada....the immigration process is really tough for American dentists, though.

 

[Henry Killinger]

I feel like the main thing hurting dentistry right now is the rising cost of the education itself. Making $90k a year after taxes in tandem with loan debts that have already surpassed $400k for many schools (meaning you pay $20-$30k a year for the loans) certainly has marginalized the financial rewards according to many newer dentists. Obviously this is a pre-dent forum, so we try to look at things through a lens of optimism. We are fortunate to not have to deal with other problems to the extent that different professions are facing. (The saturation in pharmacy, or the red tape and diminished family life in medicine) This is why I'm attempting to get a military scholarship, and I encourage others to consider HPSP or at the very least try to get into a state school or an inexpensive private school.

 

[Steins;Gate]

I love your post, and thank you for sharing your experience with us.
I've also read that it's almost impossible to find a primary care physician in certain parts of Canada (example Victoria, B.C.). Any thoughts on that?

I wish I could practice in Canada....the immigration process is really tough for American dentists, though.

Thanks for the kind words! There is an issue of this for sure re: PCPs BUT at the same time it's tough to be a PCP these days in Canada. A typical visit to the PCP is $33.00 and so they need to often double or triple book because no-shows would kill them. So wait times are really long. They keep their visits to 15 minutes/visit and try to keep it to 1 question per appointment. Primary care isn't for everyone. It can be great but some people really don't like it. I know I thought about it for a while because primary care is the front line BUT I realized I'd rather do GP dental than GP medicine in my position.

Canada is a great country and I am sure that is the same for America. Opportunity in the right places. Once again, in the right places.

 

[PaulS]

I swear I saw the exact same post somewhere on "Dental" forum not too long ago.
Dentistry is still one of the highest paid professions. Any profession that brings in a 6 figure income will cost a lot of money. It's not just dentistry; medicine, pharmacy, Ph.D level careers, and etc. Not may people make 150k/year..
To me, it sounds like you're saying "I'm not happy 'cause I'm not making half a million/year"
Dentistry not being fun is really just a personal preference; to me, dentistry is one of the most prestigious and interesting professions (at least compared to many many many other jobs out there). You get to serve other people and make a direct impact on your patients' lives while you get to be your own boss and work 4 days/week and while still making a decent amount of money.
My dentist who's been practicing about 10 years now has 2 huge offices. His offices are booked to the fullest and let me tell you, he makes damn too much money. Now, I'm not saying that everyone will be like him, but it really all depends on your performance, passion, and energy you put in with a bit of luck and business skills.
I'm sorry to hear that you no longer have a passion for your career but I'm sure there are many dentists out there who truly enjoy what they do every day, but I guess to each his own..
I agree that one must give dentistry a hard thought before jumping into it but I truly think that the pros outweigh the cons significantly.

I am sorry but the truth hurts. The golden age of dentistry is over! there is a over supply of dentists and many grads are finding it hard to find decent jobs! In canada its even worse! Population to dentist ratio is declining sharply and its really difficult for new dentists to establish a viable practice!! Lets not forget the corporate as well! they are taking over and the solo practice ownership is coming to an end!! soon all the new grads will join the corporate beast and work for low wages and long hours and their dream of ownership will be crushed! this is the sad truth my friends! remember, facts don't care about your feelings..good luck!

 

[Ollivander]

Hey guys,

Made a new acct to just clarify to folks that dentistry is not really worth it anymore.

I have been graduated for 4 years so I guess I do have a little bit of say in claiming that it's not really worth it.

A lot of folks back in dental school wasted their money thinking that they will make tons once they graduate and pay back loan in no time.

But, reality ain't like that.

A lot of friends make only around 150k as an associate and as you know, the pay doesn't really go up significantly. Its either you stay as associate or open your practice to make big bucks (but of course, you will have to take out a loan for an office which will cost you around 500k to have basic stuff)

Is it really worth it?

150K after tax and all those medicare/FICA BS taken off is worth around 90K. From this, you gotta pay your student loan + interest + car lease + car insurance + rent + electricity + cell phone bill + malpractice + disability insurance and etc etc. In the end, you are lucky to save 20k into your savings account.

And honestly, dentistry is not really fun. Hack, if it was fun, why would anyone pay you to do it?

I guess a lot of dental students are going to say "Oh I love doing restorations" "Oh I love doing crown preps"
"I love root canals" "I love extractions" blah blah, but you know what? I loved them all when I got 2-3 hours to work on a god damn single tooth. Not the case in private practice where you will be pressured to produce and you gotta do several restos in one visit or finish molar endo in less than an hour. It hurts my neck, my back and etc. Dentistry is a painful profession and pretty tedious as well.

So give it a thought. Actually, no. You don't know when you are in cushy dental school. Even residency is a joke compared to private practice. Do an observation of an medicaid office and ask yourself if you are going to be able to do it. (And don't pull this BS that you are gonna see only good insurance and FFS pts)




So my suggestion - go to cheap school, and if possible do that military thing which pays tuition. I regret I didn't do it.

BS in Finance checking in. Being a dentist was and still is my dream, however the ROI just doesn't seem to be there when compared to other fields where you can still work in within the realm of healthcare. I just decided yesterday to redirect my pursuit of graduate school to PA school after six years of working towards preparing for dental school. I've been depressed about it for a while now, but unless you're going to your state school the amount of debt that you're taking on in order to become a dentist at a private or most OOS schools just isn't financially worth it. Especially considering the insurmountable loans you're accumulating not simply just to go to dental school, but also in order to buy out or start up your own practice. We're talking above over half a million dollars here that can reach up to a million dependent on various factors. This also doesn't account for the drawback that if you ever decide the career wasn't as glamorous as you made it out to be, there's no option of a career change at that point. You're too far in and you will have far too much debt to pay back to 1) Change careers, 2) Adjust your work/life balance, and 3) Relocate. This is just in most cases that I've noticed. You're also not going to see the ROI in dentistry until you're early to late 50's compared to your peers that chose to go into computer science, PA school, even podiatry has a higher ROI at the current moment. Anyway I'm not here to change any minds. I realize there will be some backlash to my reply. I'm even sad to post this myself because I feel like I'm giving up on my dream and what I'd call the ideal career for me. However, there are also other things just as important as your career if not more. Good luck to you all!

 

[cacazor]

Apologies for reviving this thread but as a fellow D2 from Canada, I guess the US is a really different landscape for dentistry.

In Canada, the schooling is significantly cheaper. I go to a school that is about 90K for all 4 years. When factoring in parental support, jobs that I worked (my first job was less than $10/hr in the sun so yeah it gave me lots of perspective about the value of the dollar), research grants/positions, scholarships, government grants - i am coming out of school debt-free. But I worked pretty darn hard to pay more than half of that tuition and same goes for my undergrad. There was no free lunch. I was aware how expensive professional school was and should it have been even more expensive like in the US, I would have really reconsidered it OR I would have 100% went to the cheapest school since that's all I would want to fork over without any regrets of doing something else.

In Canada, we're also mostly single-payer FFS. We do have some deductions based on patients with disability plans but for the most part, our fees are like the American FFS fees. There is definite saturation in the major cities and practices in Toronto are 100% of their production (yes you read that right) BUT they still sell like hotcakes. If you move out further, it gets better. Much better. And the suburbs in Canada and really the whole country in general is beautiful. Moving away from the big cities is fine and would be a boon financially. I know of a dentist who is both francophone and anglophone and an hour from Ottawa and an hour from Montreal who is doing very well. Why? No one wants to work there but to be honest, it's a great place that is underserved and still driv-able to the big cities. There are many pockets like this in Canada.

Alright so back to dentistry in general. Yes, I'm still a student but I can say that financially, it's not easy starting off and once you're established - it's all up to you. You need to be wise about location, advertising, scope of procedures, chairside manner, personality, etc. etc. What makes dentistry great is also what can be a nightmare for people - dentistry is what you make of it. You could make 100K or you could make 800K. There are no rules to this field. That's what makes it exciting. You can choose where to work, how to work, who to work for, etc. Trust when I say that our medical counterparts have it tougher. Their schooling is not only longer but they are at the mercy of the government. There are hospital politics, everyone has a chip on their back, and until you find a job, you will be "auditioning" for residency, for a fellowship, for a job. Not a single comment can be bad on your record. You need to protect that battleship of yours. I heard posters here talking about anes, path, etc. Looks great from an outsider's perspective BUT anes is running into issues of CRNA encroachment and path has very little autonomy these days. Yes they pay well but at the same time, these jobs are also not for everyone. Some people prefer the more surgical side of things, some people prefer patient interaction, some people prefer private practice, some people prefer the business side of things. Once again, dentistry is all about "fit" and what you make of it.

I thought long and hard about medicine before I went into dentistry. I had the academics and the CV but felt that dentistry was the better fit. Am I offended you said this field isn't worth it? No. You're valid in some respects but this doesn't apply to everyone. I respect your opinions but I know what I'm getting myself into. I have 0 student debt, I have a few opportunities and one (very established) to transition from associateship into ownership before I even applied to dentistry and I am aiming to keep working hard no matter what happens. I am grateful to pursue dentistry, which in my mind and for me is the best gig I could have picked in healthcare. And no matter what happens, I'll put my head down and work hard and not complain with the cards I've been dealt.

Cheers

Yeah making six figure is great when you aren't half a million dollar in debt. In other news, water is wet

 

[Steins;Gate]

Yeah making six figure is great when you aren't half a million dollar in debt. In other news, water is wet

I don't know how you guys do it with such high tuition. I heard even the military route is quite competitive these days. Go figure.

Debt is a really scary thing. I would imagine half a million in debt = IBR for 20-30 years. 20-30 years. I don't know if that is at all a financially responsible decision to pursue this field for yourself or your family.

I think beyond the financials of dentistry, there is also the enjoyment factor that OP pointed out. So it isn't 100% true that making 6 figures is great without crippling debt because OP didn't like many aspects of the nature of the work itself. If your goal is to make 6 figures, there are better ways to do it without 500K debt that you noted.

But if you actually love dentistry, then this discussion becomes tougher. Good luck to everyone out there who has to come to these crossroads.

Cheers

 

[super frank]

It comes down to survival of the fittest.

 

[DentalNucleicAcid]

Who said you have to limit yourself to the US. Get 2 years of experience as an associate, then go work abroad for a few years as a hotshot American dentist, bring in some foreign $$$ and go buy yourself that Porsche when you come back.

 

[LuckBloodandSweat]

Foreign currency a lot of the time is worth less than U.S currency lol. The conversion rate isn't in your favor most of the time; also Europe's economy is awful lmao. We should be grateful for what we have in the U.S.

 

[DentalNucleicAcid]

Foreign currency a lot of the time is worth less than U.S currency lol. The conversion rate isn't in your favor most of the time; also Europe's economy is awful lmao. We should be grateful for what we have in the U.S.

Not Europe my friend, UAE Expenses there are much lower, net income is generally higher, and more benefits are usually offered. You don't have to speak the language either, English is fine. Even after the conversion, you'd still end up with more USD than you would with the equivalent profession in the US. I love the States and what they have to offer, just trying to consider my options given that so many people worry about the debt they're gonna have coming out of school.

 

[EasTexan]

Knowing what I know now about the career of dentistry,...

I know not many people like to share this information, but would you dive in to more detail as to:
1. Roughly where you practice.
2. Roughly how much you make a year.
3. How many days a week do you work?
4. Corporate, owner, associate?
5. Did you go straight through from HS to UG to DS?
6. Is this your first job?
7. When you graduated.
8. Are you married?

Trying to see where you're coming from with your replies.

Also, you would have done [insert unbelievably competitive specialty] instead? Ok. Or medicine? Ok. What about hours-to-pay ratio? Call. Etc. Again, just trying to see where you're coming from.

 

[Henry Killinger]

It comes down to survival of the fittest.

As in, hope you're fit enough to join the military

 

[Cello]

Software engineering is in fact all sunshine and rainbows right now

If CS is too boring for you, there's always other kind of engineering like electric, chemical, bio, etc.

There's plenty of careers that don't require 4 year of advance education and 400k indebtedness. If you're going to look at fields that are doing poorly right now and say "well no job is perfect" then you're going to close a lot of doors by not exploring other options

This may be true to an outsider. Starting salaries for frontend developers at my firm was $60k. Starting salaries for backend developers was $75k. Most of the people I worked with on the backend had a Master's degree and still carried significant student loan debt. Our lead programmer probably made over $100k, but he was stressed and burned out. I doubt he'll last another couple of years. The financial floor ceiling are both significantly higher in dentistry and the work is far better suited to people who like working with people.

 

[Cello]

Knowing what I know now about the career of dentistry, I would have gone medical and specialize in path, rads, or anesthesia. I have a lot of family members and friends who are real doctors and they are a lot happier because they make more money for the hours they put in.

I don't agree with the following link, but even highly paid physicians are not immune from whinging either.

http://www.bestmedicaldegrees.com/salary-of-doctors/

Go take a gander at dentaltown.com if you want to know the nitty gritty of dentistry.

That would be possible if dentaltown allowed pre-dental students to join their site.

The money is good but not great in general dentistry.

I was extremely fortunate to attend the cheapest dental school in Texas but I interviewed at schools like USC, and I really don't know how those grads do it. I refinanced my loans via Sofi, still drive my beater 12 year old Honda, live at home, and I'm still telling you guys to be smart about money.

Dentistry isn't wonderful...it kinda sucks. Actually, it really sucks.

So, you were admittedly lucky to attend a cheap instate school, you made sound financial decisions (keeping an old car rather than buying a new one and you even live with your parents) and you say that you don't know how dentists with mountains of debt do it. You had me up through that point, but the part I underlined makes no sense. You admit that you have every financial advantage, and that you make more than other dentists you work with, that the money is good even if not great (whatever you consider great to be), and that there is opportunity in the field of dentistry, but then you go on to say that it really sucks. How is someone reading this supposed to take that seriously? It leads someone like me to conclude that you really just don't like dentistry.

 

[Incis0r]

That would be possible if dentaltown allowed pre-dental students to join their site.

It does. I'm a member on there.

 

[Cello]

It does. I'm a member on there.

Really? When I tried to join they banned my account twice (I never even posted) because they said that I wasn't a member of the dental profession.