Dentistry Vs. Medicine in Australia

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JohnnyRockets

JohnnyRockets

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Hello, I have been offered a place in both Medicine and Dentistry in Australia.
I have volunteered in both Dental and Medical clinics in my home country and have a clear understanding of both professions. My dilemma is this, I am going to Australia on a one way ticket and have every intention of residing and working in Australia, I spent a year in Sydney as an exchange student at UNSW and absolutely loved the country. One thing that has alarmed me is that some people are saying that the medical schools are rapidly increasing seats and by 2012 the number of medical graduates will have doubled. I have also heard in the past that international students in medicine in Australia have had serious issues in the past with staying, there were even complaints in the past on this board that some USyd medicine students were kicked out of the country when they completed their studies. Honestly the lifestyle of Australia is amazing, and I have been offered a place in a Dental school, I know that Dental graduates can apply for PR and are recognized as qualifed Dentists once they complete their degree, this does not hold for MBBS graduates. I briefly had an opportunity to speak to an Australian GP and he even admitted that Dentists in general were better compensated than physicians, a General Dentist earns as much as a medical specialist with far less time devoted to residency training. He even said his son became a Dentist for that reason and is not regretting the decision.

Anyway, if I do the MBBS path, complete an internship year, would I be able to get PR and remain in the country? Does anyone have any thoughts? Since Australia has such a severe physician shortage or so they say, why are there still some considerable obstacles for international students in medicine? I checked with Dental schools and there seems to be no issues with international Dental students who want to practice in Australia?

I also heard USyd allows their students to get both Medical and Dental degrees since from what I know is that their basic science coursework is identical, this is also something that would appeal to me.
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This is the bottom line man:
Dentistry sucks as a profession (no challenge), excellent money, excellent lifestyle, no prestige comapre to med, you don't impress anyone, you scare some people especially kids, you have to repeat part of your education if you move to NA
Med is such a rewarding profession, fair money, lifestyle sucks, so prestigious, You impress anybody, you're pictured as a holy person who can relieve people's pain, no need to repeat your education at lease before become specialized.
 
You are going to excel in the profession that you like the most. Dental vs. Medicine, whichever one you feel is more self gratifying.

Prestige and money should be secondary differentiating factors. I am not negating their importance, but your primary survey should focus on what's more interesting to you.

After High School I chose money over "what I really liked" as my college major. I have been in the work force for 5 years; I make an excellent salary, yet, I hate every day of my existance at work. May be you can learn from my mistake.

best of luck. ;)
 
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Since you are definitely going to stay in Australia:

1. It doesn't matter if you have to repeat part/all of your training if you return to NA. So this is a non-issue

2. Prestige is all relative. At the end of the day it doesn't pay anyone's bills.

3. With medicine when you graduate you are really little better off then when you started. You still have to finish a residency to become a specialist. That's a minimum of 4 years on top of whatever you were doing.

4. Dentists get paid much more after graduation then doctors, because they are essentially consultants post graduation. However in the long run doctors will earn more.

5. Right now if you get your internship; you can get a PR. When you graduate that might all change. I can say this, when you graduate you will have zero (and I can say this with confidence) chance of getting your internship in a major metro city. The reason is that although it's possible now, it's still competitive. When there will be double the number of medical students (most with PRs and priority over you) this will be next to impossible. Your only chance will be to go rurally.

6. Don't forget about the moratorium. Sure there are ways to reduce it, get out of it completely, and even live and work in a major city while under it. It's still however a thorn in the side.

If you hate dentistry, you an always go back to Medical school. They will give you some credit, and you can use it to become a Max-Facial surgeon.
 
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Can you please elaborate on the Moratorium?
 
Peter59 said:
This is the bottom line man:
Dentistry sucks as a profession (no challenge), excellent money, excellent lifestyle, no prestige comapre to med, you don't impress anyone, you scare some people especially kids, you have to repeat part of your education if you move to NA
Med is such a rewarding profession, fair money, lifestyle sucks, so prestigious, You impress anybody, you're pictured as a holy person who can relieve people's pain, no need to repeat your education at lease before become specialized.
Click to expand...
:laugh:
 
Obviously no one is impressed with Dentists but the bottom line is that I heard that international students in Australia are having some serious obstacles with regards to practicing in Australia after graduation. If you do a search there was one international student from the US at USyd's medical school who said the Australian government kicked him out on his rear end after he graduated, the faculty told me that right now people can stay in Australia but they are not making any promises for students starting in 2009 and graduating in 2012. I think its silly that they are taking students and their money, as well as their time and hard work and are being mum about work opportunities.

What people think of me does not mean jack to me, I am in this for the cash $$$, I love to travel and those exotic blondes I meet could not give a hoot what I do for a living as long as I got cash. As long as I got a Porsche and an ocean view condo or house thats what matters. I had a real long talk with this Aussie GP and he was cynical as hell, he really resented the fact that he had worked in some redneck town with bogan idiots that did not give a flying crap about him and some of his friends in Sydney who were Cosmetic Dentists and in other fields were making quadruple what he earns, he said his son decided on Dentistry because of that reason. In the Australian health system since you have socialized medicine you are basically reduced to being a servant, and people there seem to take doctors for granted, I even read in Australian doctor magazine that some doctors even got assaulted by patients occasionally. I even remember in a Sydney hospital there was a sign saying that patients should not assault the staff, that is messed up. This GP basically said as a Dentist you will generally be dealing with more affluent people and less trailer park trash.

The moratorium says that all Overseas Trained Doctors including those who were former international students in medical schools cannot get a provider number for a period of ten years from the date you get PR or get Australian registration whichever is later. Basically you cannot open your own practice unless its in a rural area for ten years, so essentially you are restricted to employment in hospitals or in rural areas. I think Australia is a great place but I want to live in Sydney or Melbourne, I don't want to rot in some redneck town, this law basically restricts your practice rights.

Dental students aren't subjected to this because they become private employees. Even more annoying is that you have to do two years of general training in Australia, one year of internship and one year as a medical officer before you can get into a specialty training program. Yeah Dentists certainly don't have the "prestige" of docs, and you cannot impress people saying your a dentist, but what does that matter, if in the Aussie system Dentists earn nearly twice as much as doctors. I actually saw an Australian employment recruiter mention that Dentists make some big cash over there.

If you think Australians "respect" doctors read this:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/123374.php

This guy was head of the Australian Medical Association, got beat up with bats by a group of punks and wound up in coma and had his wallet stolen.
 
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The 10 year moratorium is moot there are ways to get out of it. I would say this, Dentists have fewer restrictions since they are mostly private employees and businesspeople. Still Medicine and Dentistry are very different.
 
Dude why a Porche? That's pretty darn expensive cause you have to imported it over and maintain it and get fuel for it and all that. Fuel in Oz is probably a lot more expensive than here in the States too. Wouldn't it be more fun to get like a motorcycle and cruise the outback or rent a single engine plane? You could probably do that on doctor or dentist money. I think you should make your decision based on what you'll enjoy more in the long run, because both will leave you financially comfortable.

Fancy toys aren't all they're cracked up to be. When I was younger I thought I'd be set with a boat. Now that I have mine for years (and it was worth probably more than a Porche mind you) it's just not that big a deal anymore. Although boats still rock because I can live in mine (doubt you can do that in a Porche) and I always get an ocean view.
 
gmacpac,

Not a silly question. But before you make your mind up about the moratorium look at this forum - there is a lot of information about the moratorium.

1. It does not mean you have to work rurally.

2. There are a lot of good places in Major cities that are designated as in need. You can work privately in one of these areas.

3. It starts from when you get your PR, or when you are fully registered (whichever comes last) so all of your training (except internship) is counted.

4. If you work publicly there is no issue. This is only for people who want to work privately.

5. A lot of specialists are exempted from this, though there isn't a list published on a website somewhere, I know for a fact Neurosugeons and Pathologists are exempted from the moratorium.

Johnnyrockets,

Socialised medicice is not slavery. Working in America for HMOs is slavery. You have no choice but to do what they say, otherwise you won't earn any of that $$$$ that you so value. You are nothing more then a vessel for what they deem to be an ideal management plan. Forget about your years of training, if you don't get patients out quick enough, or manage them with medications they deem appropriate they stop sending patients to you. If that isn't slavery I don't know what is.

At least with socialised medicine you can manage patients as individuals. If a patient with signficiant medical co-morbidities needs an extra two nights post her lap. chole. then that's what she gets. No questions asked. You are the doctor, not some beaurocrat in New York.

As for Australia, well in a way you get the best of both worlds. It's not purely socialised, you can get money on top of what the government gives you, not only from the patient but also from private insurance.

I've worked in rural towns, and the patients there are extremely nice to you. They have no choice but to be, because if you leave they are up ****s creek. I don't know about your experience has been, but in my opinion the living costs in Sydney are outrageous, the only way to actually save money is to live in a smaller town in the hopes that when you do get enough saved up you can move to a bigger city. How would this change even if you didn't have the moratorium? If you go where the money is, then you will find yourself outside the major metros anyway. Also I think I've said this a million times, but the onus is on you to find out areas in need (NOTE THIS DOES NOT MEAN RURAL). There are plenty in Melbourne and more then a few in Sydney. Sure they are in the suburbs (not the CBD) but you wouldn't be living in the CBD anyway.

Also there are a few specialities you can get into right after internship, though in most cases you need an internship and RMO year. However most people are comfortable enough (less working hours, better pay) then doctors in other countries (the US or Canada) that it doesn't bother them. I know plenty of people that couldn't get matches into programs they wanted in both Canada or the US, so they settled for whatever they could get. They hate their jobs, but it was the only way to put food on their tables. At least in Oz you will still be employeed, whether or not you do get into the speciality of your choice.

Also doctors get assaulted in the US too. It's just that since the rate of violent crime in the US is so high, no one cares. That head of the AMA wasn't assaulted because he was a doctor, he was assaulted and just happened to be a doctor. There's a difference.
 
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What people think of me does not mean jack to me, I am in this for the cash $$$, I love to travel and those exotic blondes I meet could not give a hoot what I do for a living as long as I got cash. As long as I got a Porsche and an ocean view condo or house thats what matters.
Click to expand...

Dude no offense but you're set to be a dentist with this kind of attitude. Go ahead and enjoy it.
 
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Well I spoke with a GP living in Queensland who is a friend of my father, he just told me his experience living in Australia, and refers to a good number of his patients as redneck d@ckheads, again his words. He is Asian like me.
He told me his son is only a few years out of Dental school and is making over 400k a year at the tender age of 28 and says his income just keeps growing, in fact he said its way more than what a self employed GP earns. He told me GP incomes for self employed GPs full time is around 200k to 350k a year which to me is good but he said I would have to complete several years of training and on top of that get some experience, so it could be ten years after medical school when I would start seeing that kind of income whereas as Dental grad, I am worth at least six figures out fresh out of school.
I already found an advertisement from a headhunter recruiting dentists in Australia saying that starting salaries for new grads is 200k a year and more experienced ones are getting a lot more. I know Sydney is expensive, but if I earned that kind of coin, that would be great. Sydney is also much more multicultural than small towns and I would feel more comfortable in that environment than some rural area.
 
My input, if you value money and lifestyle very heavily, you should go into Dentistry. I still think though that Medicine is a fine choice and in general people in Australia actually respect doctors. No one really cares about Dentists. I was even in a few social situations where I found it really easy to pick up because of the fact that I am a future doctor, no one becomes impressed by Dentists. Doctors deal with life and death situations and they have a lot of respect and authority that others do not. The President of the US does not make millions but people still think of that as pretty desirable job. That case of the doctor who got beaten up is sad but its not typical, there were several other people assaulted along with that doctor.

Medicine is not about instant gratification. I have transitioned from a financial career into medicine. My old profession was all about quick money but I got sick of it. Its your call. Anyway I think USyd allows students to get a dual degree if you are still unsure.
 
Johnny what are you going to do after you have lots of money and you have the Porsche and oceanfront home you dream of? Personally I think medicine would becoming boring a lot less than dentistry, and in Australia you specialize much later which makes for a very interesting career. Both careers will let you be comfortable. Wouldn't you want to take a pay cut for more job satisfaction?
 
img_29778_53b99d36d1bf0e051d7fcbf4e34ce7ae_max800x600.jpg


Career Satisfaction. What my dad's friend was saying starting ringing true for me. I could save lives as a doctor and still get batted up like a punk just like that doctor in Melbourne. I think I am going for the cash.

A couple of students started a thread about how international students will have issues with residencies because of surplus medical graduates, I have to think smarter, because frankly after 2012, its going to be nearly impossible for IMGs to get residencies in the US and if I don't get one in Australia, I am out 300,000 dollars with nothing. I have also gotten more straight answers from the Dental faculty than from the Medical faculty, it seems like they want our fees but really do not care what happens to us, no wonder there is a doctor shortage in Australia...or so they say.

People's perceptions of me are not going to put a roof over my head or feed my future wife and kids, I went to Australia for a year and its just as money oriented as the USA or any other well to do country.
 
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Good for you! By doing this you've probably freed up the medicine spot for someone who wants to be a doctor out of genuine passion and not for any peripheral benefits.

Seriously though you should consider getting a motorcycle (Johnny Cr0tchrocket?) instead of the Porsche. It would be so much fun to drive around and you would be like that dentist in Little Shop of Horrors. Ahh the memories...
"Your temperament's wrong for the priesthood, and teaching would suit you still less! Son, be a dentist! You'll be a success!"

A big house, a fancy car, and all that jazz is nice and all, but it gets boring fast (and dentistry probably will too). I grew up with that kind of lifestyle and ran away from it. I think it's nice that you're thinking of your future family but what about your current family? Your gonna leave all your family and friends behind? Personally I'd sacrifice comfort for a more interesting and exciting life.
 
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Your avatar says it all but frankly speaking as physician you will do fine in Australia. I know that issue of the increased number of medical students graduating cannot be ignored, and even in the US, its being more IMG unfriendly lately. Judging by your posts it seems you are far more interested in immigrating to Australia and having an affluent lifestyle than entering medicine.
 
With your attitude and values why are you looking to work in healthcare at all?? I certainly do not want to see a doctor or dentist that only considers the bottom line. If you are just looking to make money why not go into business? I just can't see any other motivation than money. Sad really.
 
Meddie83 said:
With your attitude and values why are you looking to work in healthcare at all?? I certainly do not want to see a doctor or dentist that only considers the bottom line. If you are just looking to make money why not go into business? I just can't see any other motivation than money. Sad really.
Click to expand...

1. Unfortunately a lot of people go into medicine for $$$$, they just don't put that on their application.

2. Medicine is a business! When you start practising you will realise that very quickly, and best of all in socialised countries it's recession proof.
 
As my mentor in mentor said:

"Keep your eyes off your patient's wallet, and he will keep his eyes off yours"

Very true. I believe majority of law suits occur because of poor communication and rep between patient and doctor. How can one establish a genuine relationship with their patient if all they care about is $$$$.

In the end, one law suite will balance out your savings. There is nothing wrong with going for the bling bling life style, but make sure your heart is at the right place.
 
People in every Western country are money minded, its not just people in the USA. Frankly I think Canadians are no different than Americans, maybe they are more averse to taking chances, but that is it. Australia is the same way. They are charging internationals nearly 10 times what locals pay in tuition fees, and on top of this are mum about whether or not we can work. If they are going to treat me like a business proposition I will do the same. Dentists do not have the kind of restrictions that Doctors have in Australia with regards to training and practice.
 
redshifteffect said:
1. Unfortunately a lot of people go into medicine for $$$$, they just don't put that on their application.

2. Medicine is a business! When you start practising you will realise that very quickly, and best of all in socialised countries it's recession proof.
Click to expand...

That always confirmed it for me.
 
Keep in mind that what the University "charges" internationals it also charges locals. The difference is that the government pays a portion of this on behalf of local students.
 
HECS is around 6 to 8k AUD a year, international fees are more than 5 to 6 times that rate!!!
 
Peter59 said:
This is the bottom line man:
Dentistry sucks as a profession (no challenge), excellent money, excellent lifestyle, no prestige comapre to med, you don't impress anyone, you scare some people especially kids, you have to repeat part of your education if you move to NA
Med is such a rewarding profession, fair money, lifestyle sucks, so prestigious, You impress anybody, you're pictured as a holy person who can relieve people's pain, no need to repeat your education at lease before become specialized.
Click to expand...

ouch.
 
JohnnyRockets said:
HECS is around 6 to 8k AUD a year, international fees are more than 5 to 6 times that rate!!!
Click to expand...

Most of the local students in dentistry are paying $30,000 AUD a year (full-fee).

In fact, you're pretty much just looking at CSP placements for any professional degree such as Dentistry, and there's about only 20 people out of my 83 people first year class who've got CSP.

If you're an australian citizen however, you can get a CSP placement if your average is above 75% for first year I believe. (H2A minimum)
 
Don't listen to Peter, he got a 4 on one his MCAT sections!!! LOL.

I was referring to CSP HECS for people in Grad Entry Medicine. I thought most USyd BDent students are CSPs.
 
I'm pretty sure CSP is only for Australian PRs
 
There is no guarntee as a Medical student you will get a residency spot.

As a dentist you will most likely find work because there is NO residency needed. You will prob be able to go back to the US to practice if you so choose, not so easy with medicine.

As a copy and paste from another post:
Dentists as far as I can tell make more money, at least in Canada.

If I was going for the $$$ I'd enter dentistry. Having spoken to several dentists then several medical doctors, at least in Canada, I know some dentists right out of university making as much as surgeons for far less hours and stress (you work 9-5, and don't deal with life/death situations) and as a dentist you don't need to go through any internship.

Australia costs more to buy that Porsche you want (I don't even know why) even with the exchange rates it's something like 40-50% more than compared to Canada. Compared to USA it's almost 100% more. For example:
Cayman S in the US costs 59.1K USD in Canada its $75.3K + Tax CND (so 85K CND = 71K USD) and in Australia it's 154.4K (inc GST) AUD (so 105.1K USD) this is of course with today's exchange rates.
 
Why not do both?

I'm planning on maybe doing Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery after I finish my degree. However, it's going to be at least another 7 years after my BDSc degree.

Simply, fixing cleft palates is just way cooler than orthodontics.
 
JohnnyRockets said:
Don't listen to Peter, he got a 4 on his Verbal reasoning and doesn't understand English.
Click to expand...

This is irrelevant my friend, but if you like to bring me down I don't mind. I don't get approval from people like you.
 
I hope you never see a dentist. Ever.

Considering how it sucks as a profession and all.
 
Peter59 said:
This is irrelevant my friend, but if you like to bring me down I don't mind. I don't get approval from people like you.
Click to expand...

Don't worry about "Peter", he's also on the DAT forums. He is just a wanker.
 
Okay, Johnny and Peter...break it up.
 
Dear Friends ,

can you plz give insight on

in speciality like obg gyn ....an overseas trained doctor will have to complete 4 1/2 yrs fellowship in Oz to become eligible as consultant ...and also few exams of royal college

what would be salaries after completion of 4 1/2 for obg gyn ..in Oz for an overseas trained doctor ??

as I already have completed MBBS and MD...and further 4 1/2 yrs means total 11 yrs on medical education ..

any kind soul please reply with details
 
Theillestill said:
Why not do both?

I'm planning on maybe doing Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery after I finish my degree. However, it's going to be at least another 7 years after my BDSc degree.

Simply, fixing cleft palates is just way cooler than orthodontics.
Click to expand...

FYI: orthodontists "fix cleft palates" too. They almost always work in conjunction with maxillofacial surgeons to complete cases pre and post-operatively. :thumbup:
 
I don't know, I just feel that ortho's are frowned upon by a lot of dental practitioners
 
One of the lecturers was like, "there's always one ortho in the group"
 
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