Department of Education & 20/20 shamed doctors for not paying back their student loans!

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BMBiology

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Here is another news segment on "deadbeat doctors":

 
These physicians straight up defaulted on student loans...how is this the same as participating in a legal, government sponsored program?

It's like saying a foreclosure is treated the same as a HARP participant, in real estate terms.
 
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^whether there is fraud or not, the news segment didn't say. It was about the abuse of the system and that is how the news media will report when six figure loans are forgiven for doctors, dentists, pharmacists, lawyers.

They will whip up the public and the politicians will respond just like they did when some lawyers declared bankruptcy in the 1970s so they can avoid paying their student loans. That is why I believe PSLF in its current form is doomed. It will either be modified or eliminated. As you already know the Obama administration has proposed a 57.5 k cap, just as I had predicted.
 
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BMBiology said:
^whether there is fraud or not, the news segment didn't say. It was about the abuse of the system and that is how the news media will report when six figure loans are forgiven for doctors, dentists, pharmacists, lawyers.

They will whip up the public and the politicians will respond just like they did when some lawyers declared bankruptcy in the 1970s so they can avoid paying their student loans.
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Duh they're ABC news, they can't legally say "fraud" or they'd be hung out to dry for libel in a heartbeat. The keyword is "default" and this is a pretty open/shut case.... Person borrows money, makes a ton at work, doesn't pay it back.

I really think this is a stretch. Are you that bored you wanted to open up another PSLF dick waving contest?
 
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^ yup and some even brag about it on this forum. I am sure he's one of many who has abused the system.

type b pharmD said:
I will ultimately end up paying what I consider a fair market value for a PharmD , somewhere around $100-150k . The opportunities I had to invest and start small business during school (offshore) , taught me that finances particularly with regard to US govt, are not always what they seem. For example, while US Gov will ultimately pay $700k for my PharmD . I will pay around 150k. The opportunity to get student loans to sit around and not attend class allowed me to invest in my retirement already through small business, which, starting a steady compounding interest stream at age 25, was financially worth the trade-off of acquiring the student debt, and was a no brainer decision since it dovetails nicely with pre-existing plans to retire abroad.

Just a small piece of a bigger picture.

The on paper debt is a farce, which, I would hope anyone who has participated in higher ed scam would realize
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^ I don't know why you keep on talking about defaulting. It is about the abuse of the program. For example, PSLF counts residency. So a cardiologist who did 7 years of residency just have to work for 3 years at the right place and his loans are forgiven. That's the loophole. People will see that as an abuse of the program.
 
Well, in that video clip they specifically said that these doctors had defaulted on their loans…that's why everyone is mentioning defaulting.
There is a pretty big difference between defaulting and paying off your loans (or even having part of them forgiven) through a government-sponsored program.

Anyway, I thought you could have your license taken away if you defaulted on your loan payments. That didn't seem to happen in these cases…though it's kind of counter intuitive because then you will probably never pay the loans back.
 
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I'll go on record saying that I have no problem with residency counting toward PSLF. The years spent in residency in a non-profit hospital are still serving an underserved population. It's part of training, sure, but logging all those hours in the clinic, seeing all those patients, working long hours, is still serving the public. And making pennies per hour, in some cases. PSLF shouldn't be lumped in with defaulting. Totally different animals.
 
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^^ How about those physicians who are doing their residency at Cedar Sinai in Beverly Hills? How about those pharmacists who are making $70 an hour working at Kaiser? Obviously this program wasn't intented for those physicians and pharmacists.

So don't lump those who are on PSLF into "serving an underserved population". The reality is most hospitals are non profit. I can't even think of one university hospital that is for profit. Tax payers are already subsidizing these residency programs and now you want the tax payers to also forgive student loans including undergrad loans to people who are making six figure salary?
 
^ I am just a jealous guy and I dont want to pay more taxes LOL
 
All4MyDaughter said:
This thread definitely isn't disproving my hypothesis that someone has a crush on type b and likes to make posts about him.
Click to expand...

What is it with you and crushes? I point out someone who is abusing the system and therefore, I have a crush on him?

Lets not get off topic here. You can start a crush thread if you want. I am waiting for your mod buddy to respond. I am sure he will agree with you.
 
owlegrad said:
Damn I hate when I am late for a party!
Click to expand...

Whooo hoo I knew it! Maybe you guys have something going on or maybe people who are on a statin tend to stick together. The mods are at it again.
 
BMBiology said:
That's nice. The point is that they are a non-profit hospital and Beverly Hills is certainly not an "underserved community".
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Well I think I demonstrated that they are in fact serving an "underserved population." That's what charity care means. Where the hospital is located is irrelevant.
 
And they also made $132 million in profit. What is your point?

http://cedars-sinai.edu/About-Us/Financials.aspx

If that's your standards then shouldn't for-profit hospitals also qualify for PSLF? I am sure they also serve the "underserved population"? Even CVS does that.
 
BMBiology said:
And they also made $132 million in profit. What is your point?

http://cedars-sinai.edu/About-Us/Financials.aspx

If that's your standards then shouldn't for-profit hospitals also qualify for PSLF? I am sure they also serve the "underserved population"? Even CVS does that.
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For profit hospitals don't have to take indigent patients, beyond EMTALA. Just like CVS is not required to give meds away for free.
 
All4MyDaughter said:
For profit hospitals don't have to take indigent patients, beyond EMTALA.
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Lets not get off topic here. If you want to discuss this and then go ahead and start another thread. I am sure your mod buddy got your back.
 
BMBiology said:
Lets not get off topic here. If you want to discuss this and then go ahead and start another thread. I am sure your mod buddy got your back.
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Look you claimed Cedars-Sinai doesn't serve the underserved and I refuted that. Then you claimed for-profits did the same and I pointed out that they aren't required to. In fact, many do not. They patch the indigents up in the ER and send them to non-profit hospitals who have to treat them. I think your understanding of these issues is weak. Just like your ability to conflate PSLF with defaulting is weak.
 
All4MyDaughter said:
Look you claimed Cedars-Sinai doesn't serve the underserved and I refuted that. Then you claimed for-profits did the same and I pointed out that they aren't required to. In fact, many do not. They patch the indigents up in the ER and send them to non-profit hospitals who have to treat them. I think your understanding of these issues is weak. Just like your ability to conflate PSLF with defaulting is weak.
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^^ again if you want to discuss how Cedars is serving the underserved population then go ahead and start another thread. Apparently you have been to West LA many times and there are plenty of poor people living in Beverly Hills, Brentwood, Bel Air who don't mind being stuck in their Mercedes as they drive to Cedars.
 
BMBiology said:
^^ again if you want to discuss how Cedars is serving the underserved population then go ahead and start another thread. Apparently you have been to West LA many times and there are plenty of people living in Beverly Hills, Brentwood, Bel Air who don't mind being stuck in their Mercedes as they drive to Cedars.
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Sorry to bring a healthy dose of facts to your hyperbole laden thread. Cedars is a non-profit hospital providing indigent care and its employees are eligible for PSLF. Sorry that upsets you so much. But your hurt feelings don't change the facts. If you had worked there (or any nonprofit), you could have benefited as well. Is it regret that's driving this?
 
In the future I don't see how one could default other than by being extremely negligent. All you have to do is sign up for one of the income based repayment programs and you're considered 'OK'. The problem is these programs obviously weren't designed to be used for professional school or large balances and that is why government officials are already talking about capping them. I always figured the programs would be capped after the first few reports of neurosurgeons having 300,000-400,000 in tax free forgiveness came out.
 
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Gombrich12 said:
In the future I don't see how one could default other than by being extremely negligent. All you have to do is sign up for one of the income based repayment programs and you're considered 'OK'. The problem is these programs obviously weren't designed to be used for professional school or large balances and that is why government officials are already talking about capping them. I always figured the programs would be capped after the first few reports of neurosurgeons having 300,000-400,000 in tax free forgiveness came out.
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A neurosurgeon is going to pay huge payments under IBR, at least after they finish training. Probably the same as they would pay under the standard repayment plan.

EDIT: and IBR forgiveness is taxed. PSLF is tax free, but if PSLF payment is calculated like IBR, the neurosurgeon is still going to be paying a big monthly payment.
 
That's true assuming they draw up a contract with a high salary at the beginning. If you have 6-7 years towards PSLF already why wouldn't you negotiate a contract where your salary is backloaded past the forgiveness date? There are all sorts of loopholes for abuse with the program and the recent cap and spousal proposals are attempts to fix some of them.
 
Also, the 6-7 years of residency salary would barely touch the interest. Someone needs to do some math.
 
This thread is all over the place.

I was looking forward to another PSLF thread to post in, but apparently we're discussing fraud, defaulting, Cedars-Sinai, BMB man crushing on type b, and EMTALA now.

Good to know SDN is back to normal, hah.
 
1) I was also under the impression that physicians are typically contracted and not hired by hospitals (illegal in California), therefore not able to take advantage of PSLF.

2) PSLF is more about proportion of debt to income, actual income is irrelevant. Sure, making $150k sounds great, but the point is if your loan balances exceed $250-300k, then you're not so well off (therefore a loan forgiveness benefit levels the playing field).

Same concept as making $150k/yr in San Francisco or New York putting you squarely in the middle class vs living like a king in Kansas City. There exists home loan assistance programs for people making $100k in SF. Drives home the point that absolute income doesn't matter, it's all relative.

But eh, not like I'll convince anyone on here...I expect my logical post to generate a fully off topic reply instead!
 
So, how many of these "doctors" defaulting, are actually MD's/DO's? This seems to be the assumption, but there was talk on the allopathic board that others degrees with much poorer income prospects, such as chiropracty were being lumped in with the "doctors." I'm sure it happens sometimes, but I find it hard to believe a great number of MD's/DO's who are physically capable of working are actually defaulting. Defaulting leads to wage garnishment, tax refund garnishment, a horrendous credit score, complete LICENCE REVOCATION of both professional licenses & drivers license....all stuff that leads to a much lower quality of life. Unless one is mentally ill, or physically incapable of working, there is absolutely no incentive to default on student loans.
 
It never made sense to me that if you default on student loans they remove your licenses. It's the same for pharmacy as well. Seems a little counter productive to remove someone's livelihood and ability to earn money in order to begin paying off the loans in the first place.

That being said with current repayment plans set in place and income base repayments and plans for financial hardship I don't see how they would be able to truly default. They may not be able to pay much on principal but it's not default if you are adhering to one of the repayment plans out there. Either way the government is going to have a net profit from physicians (and pharmacists) when you take into account the interest on the loans and the increased salaries that the government collects taxes on, the states also take their nice pretty penny in the form of extra taxation and licensing fees. In my state it costs about $500 a year in extra taxes and fees just to retain your license. The feds profit, the state profits, having some loan forgiveness or flexible repayment isn't a bad thing.
 
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Gombrich12 said:
That's true assuming they draw up a contract with a high salary at the beginning. If you have 6-7 years towards PSLF already why wouldn't you negotiate a contract where your salary is backloaded past the forgiveness date? There are all sorts of loopholes for abuse with the program and the recent cap and spousal proposals are attempts to fix some of them.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's really two different scenarios. With IBR, a neurosurgeon's payment is going to be very high, once he is finished with training. Since IBR is a much longer term (20 or 25 years I believe), he or she will have paid more toward the total balance after the term is up. And any forgiven balance will be taxed.

In your PSLF scenario, I suppose it's possible the neurosurgeon could negotiate a lower salary for the first few years of practice to get through with his or her PSLF 10 year term. They'd have to stay on as an employee of a non-profit hospital and the forgiveness would have to be worth the opportunity cost of the lost income. Neurosurgeons make a lot of money and are not typically employed by hospitals. I think this scenario is far-fetched, at least for neurosurgeons.

BMBiology said:
Also, the 6-7 years of residency salary would barely touch the interest. Someone needs to do some math.
Click to expand...

IBR payments won't touch the interest during residency. The point is what happens afterwards.

BidingMyTime said:
So, how many of these "doctors" defaulting, are actually MD's/DO's? This seems to be the assumption, but there was talk on the allopathic board that others degrees with much poorer income prospects, such as chiropracty were being lumped in with the "doctors." I'm sure it happens sometimes, but I find it hard to believe a great number of MD's/DO's who are physically capable of working are actually defaulting. Defaulting leads to wage garnishment, tax refund garnishment, a horrendous credit score, complete LICENCE REVOCATION of both professional licenses & drivers license....all stuff that leads to a much lower quality of life. Unless one is mentally ill, or physically incapable of working, there is absolutely no incentive to default on student loans.
Click to expand...

On the list I have seen it was mostly chiropractors, naturopaths, some podiatrists, and dentists. But mostly chiropractors.
 
confettiflyer said:
This thread is all over the place.

I was looking forward to another PSLF thread to post in, but apparently we're discussing fraud, defaulting, Cedars-Sinai, BMB man crushing on type b, and EMTALA now.

Good to know SDN is back to normal, hah.
Click to expand...

So let's discuss. What is your strategy if the government cap PSLF forgiveness to 57.5 k?

Don't worry about the mods. They are still telling people there are plenty of pharmacy jobs especially where they live (hint: it is not in the big city)
 
confettiflyer said:
1) I was also under the impression that physicians are typically contracted and not hired by hospitals (illegal in California), therefore not able to take advantage of PSLF.

2) PSLF is more about proportion of debt to income, actual income is irrelevant. Sure, making $150k sounds great, but the point is if your loan balances exceed $250-300k, then you're not so well off (therefore a loan forgiveness benefit levels the playing field).

Same concept as making $150k/yr in San Francisco or New York putting you squarely in the middle class vs living like a king in Kansas City. There exists home loan assistance programs for people making $100k in SF. Drives home the point that absolute income doesn't matter, it's all relative.

But eh, not like I'll convince anyone on here...I expect my logical post to generate a fully off topic reply instead!
Click to expand...

I agree that most physicians aren't employed by the hospital. The ones who are (hospitalists, etc.) are lower paid. Of course VA physicians work for the hospital, but we're not talking about the high octane specialties there either.
 
^^ that is not official and any proposal needs to be negotiated with the republicans.

It is not just physicians. There are also dentists, pharmacists, lawyers with outrageous student loan debt and I am sure many are planning to or already working for the government or non profit so their loan will be forgiven. The Obama administration knows this and that is why they proposed the 57.5 k cap.

Ask yourself this: if you are a politician, what move would get you more votes? Going back on a promise to well paid professionals or dealing with the public outrage over this forgiveness program?

I am certain PSLF will be modified or eliminated. The big question is...will it be retroactive?
 
^ didn't you buy a car with your student loans? Time to pay up! LOL
 
Wow so many resentments I sense from alot of people who take advantage of the system just like people who strategically default their home. Whether it was right or wrong, in the end people were allow to default with ruin credit or short sell up to a certain date before taxation on the amount owed. I think that what will happen to PLSF. It will be forgiven on existing IBR enrollee. Plus there are hundreds of lawyers who count on this and will be lobbying for it.

Politician can provide lip service but what they do is totally different. Obama campaign was about taxing the rich and give back to poor and Wallstreet vs mainstreet but the people that gain the most during the recession is Wallstreet. Most people I talked to and online survey feel they were worst off than before he took place. Yet he was elected twice!

Another possible spin to get more votes is that everyone has student loans now. They can pander to the college students and the parents of those children.
 
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I absolutely love this thread, and I loved the video, and want to give thanks to BMB for tonight's entertainment, thanks to the democratic party for $1000/month payments, and a big thank you to my lenders also for helping me get a house and 2 cars in the process.

Life sucks pretty hard when you're "insolvent" I guess it's just our burden to bear as the student loan generation... I know I won't ever regret not paying off my loans...I am beginning to think BMB may be shouldering a little bit of that feeling due to 'doing the right thing'.

Well you only live this life once.. and thankfully debt doesn't follow you to the next life!
 
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