Department vs Division

[The White Coat Investor]

I've read in a number of places that you should find out if Emergency Medicine is a free-standing department, rather than a division of medicine or surgery. Can anyone lend some insight as to whether this really matters? The program I really wonder about is UC-Davis....how does this play in there?

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[Apollyon]

I want to bump this up, because we were talking about this earlier this week in our program (Duke is a division of surgery), and the SAEM site is not accurate. FREIDA doesn't help, and I want to know (because the PD said that only about 25 of the 128 or so of the EM programs were free-standing departments).

If you know your program or another one, can you post whether it is a free-standing department, or division of medicine, surgery, or other department?

Thanks.

The ones I know:
Department: SUNY-Buffalo, NY-Presbyterian, Mt. Sinai
Divison of Surgery: Duke, Yale

 

[ERMudPhud]

Denver Health (Formerly Denver General)-Department

It is primarily a status and power thing but if you are a division of another department it can mean that in important matters like hiring, turf battles, the inevitable pissing matches with other services, scheduling of off service rotations and others the ED may not have the power to get what it wants/needs

 

[tonem]

I agree. The Chairman of the Department of Surgery probably isn't going to put as much energy into turf battles with other departments when he's fighting for the Division of Emergency Medicine. Others say that if Emergency Medicine is still a Division rather than a Department after nearly 30 years as a specialty it probably doesn't get much respect in that respective institution.

Pitt - Department
UMass - Department
Stanford - Division
USC - Department

Just check out webpages...they generally say whether its a department or not. Also check out titles of faculty. Are they professors of surgery or emergency medicine

 

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by ERMudPhud
It is primarily a status and power thing

That was our thing - it was about duty hours, and how the surgery bosses would balk (actually, the PD said they would "**** their pants") if EM cut hours to a reasonable amount.

 

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by tonem
Just check out webpages...they generally say whether its a department or not. Also check out titles of faculty. Are they professors of surgery or emergency medicine

I tried that, and it was monotonous, and many sites are unclear, and I trust the folks here!

 

[mikecwru]

Originally posted by Apollyon
I tried that, and it was monotonous, and many sites are unclear, and I trust the folks here!

MetroHealth Medical Center (Cleveland) - Department

 

[mikecwru]

Originally posted by Apollyon
I tried that, and it was monotonous, and many sites are unclear, and I trust the folks here!

You also have to be careful, because some programs will throw out that hospital-wise, they are a Department, but academically, they are still a division of Medicine or Surgery.

mike

 

[anonymousEM]

University of Florida-Jacksonville--Dept
Akron General--Dept
Summa Health Center/Akron City--Dept
The Ohio State University--Dept
Wright State--Dept
Wayne State/Siani--Dept
Medical College of GA--Dept

I'm surprised at the percentage Appolyon quoted from his PD. I think almost everywhere I interviewed was a dept (12 or so) and most the ones to which I applied as well. (Maybe I applied to all of them??) The ones above were ones I had cards on hand from the PDs and could easily verify that they are indeed depts.

 

[Apollyon]

I thought it was a low percentage, too, which is why I was a little motivated to really check it out.

And, Mike, I know - there's some confusion with "Hospital Department, Faculty get appointments from Division", "Hospital Department, Division in Medical School", and stuff like that.

We're doing well - about 15% done. I'll cobble together a list as time goes on.

 

[sweetfynesse]

St.Luke's-Roosevelt (NYC)- Department
UAB- Department
U of FL- Shands, JAX- DEpartment
SUNY Downstate- Department

 

[docB]

UC Davis is a division of IM. My understanding is that throughout the UC system all of the EM groups are divisions. It never seemed to make a great deal of difference. The senior faculty at UCD had enough power to get things done. My suggestion is that if you are considering a residency at a place with EM division status the most important thing is to make sure you are not being used a slave labor by the overseeing department. For instance an EM intern shouldn't be doing 6 months of med wards. If you are, you're slave labor.

 

[DrQuinn]

I think Univ of Maryland is a Division of Surgery.

I believe my program, Univ of South Florida/TGH is a Division of IM.

Q, DO

 

[gimmedog]

I've heard that UC Irvine has recently become a department.

 

[futrEDdoc]

Eastern Virginia Medical School - Department

 

[endo]

University of Cincinnati = department since 1984

 

[Apollyon]

OK, so far:

21 Departments
2 Divisions of medicine
4 Divisions of surgery

There's 100 programs to go!

 

[Scrubbs]

MCP/Hahnemann (Drexel) - Dept
Temple - Dept
Jefferson - Dept
LSU Charity - Division of Medicine

As others have said, being a dept means your PD has more pull when they need to go to bat for you/the program. But, in the big scheme of things, I don't think dept/division played any part in my rank list.

 

[poi_and_beyond]

Emory, Dept.
Highland, Dept.

 

[inka]

johns hopkins - department

 

[Virion]

Denver is a "Hospital Department", actually a Division of Surgery.

 

[nibblenuts]

Emergency medicine is a department at Denver Health where the residency program is based. You are correct that Emergency Medicine at the University of Colorado is a Division of the Department of Surgery. Faculty at the residency program hold dual appointments.

 

[Seaglass]

York - Dept.
Penn State - Dept.

 

[EMRaiden]

Palmetto Richland - Department

 

[Sessamoid]

Texas Tech - Department (both hospital and academic)

 

[Haiku]

WashU -- Division of IM

 

[tonem]

Complete list of Academic Departments:

http://saem.org/inform/chairlst.htm

 

[pinbor1]

Univ of Illinois at Chicago- Dept
Christ Hosp- Dept
Resurrection- Dept
Northwestern- Division of IM
Cook County- Dept

and I think Univ of Chicago is also a dept

That should cover the Chicago programs

 

[RnB]

Hennepin-Department
Regions-Department

 

[tonem]

Originally posted by tonem
Complete list of Academic Departments:

http://saem.org/inform/chairlst.htm

Complete list of academic departments

 

[Flipchick]

I think we need to clarify "Academic Department" vs "Hospital Department.". For example, in Minnesota, Hennepin ED has been an independent department in the hospital since 1972, but just recently they've just combined Regions and Hennepin ED to form an academic department at the U of MN.

 

[SHOX]

The SAEM list is far from complete:

Christiana has had an Emergency Department for 30 years now!!!
(Among the first 5 departments)

Delaware was also the 3rd state to form a chapter in ACEP!!!

 

[tonem]

SHOX see flipchicks post.

 

[SHOX]

And your point? ....

Christiana has enjoyed departmental status for >30years and residency training program for >20... not many can say that!

You can hide in your "academic" semantics all you want. Let's get real.

 

[tonem]

you're kidding right?

 

[Seaglass]

Not about the numbers. I believe the ED group was formed at Christiana in about 1973 and I think they graduated their first residents in 1983. (according to matierals from my recent interview there).

Casey

 

[tonem]

Maybe I'm the one that's confused. I thought the original post was asking about the importance of the "specialty" of Emergency Medicine being an independent Department within a medical school vs. it being a Division of another specialty (ie: Medicine or Surgery).

I didn't realize the discussion was about whether or not a particular hospital system (ie: Christiana) had an actual physical emergency department. I apologize for being so obtuse. I guess it would be a little hard to do emergency medicine without an emergency room.

For those more interested in semantics the link was an "incomplete" list of Academic Departments of Emergency Medicine.

Me getting real

 

[Sessamoid]

Originally posted by tonem
Maybe I'm the one that's confused.

Maybe not "confused" but perhaps not clearly communicating your point. The original post did not seem to distinguish between the two in its request. It is only in subsequent posts that the distinction was brought up. I thought your posts were at best curt, perhaps even rude.

I didn't realize the discussion was about whether or not a particular hospital system (ie: Christiana) had an actual physical emergency department. I apologize for being so obtuse.

Perhaps better to apologize for the unneeded sarcasm.

For those more interested in semantics the link was an "incomplete" list of Academic Departments of Emergency

The list probably is incomplete and/or out-of-date, but how does it pertain to your point?

 

[orthoguy]

What is the point of this debate?

 

[tonem]

Originally posted by Desperado
I've read in a number of places that you should find out if Emergency Medicine is a free-standing department, rather than a division of medicine or surgery. Can anyone lend some insight as to whether this really matters? The program I really wonder about is UC-Davis....how does this play in there?

Orthoguy is right...but it seemed pretty clear to me that this post is questioning the importance of department status as in Academic Department and not the more general Emergency Department as in a place in the hospital. The very next post specifically asked for a list of academic departments of emergency medicine...I ran across the list and it seemed like it might add to the discussion. That was my only point.

Flipchick was right in her observation that there seemed to be some confusion and that the distinction had been blurred. My attempt at brevity in referring SHOX to her post seems to have been misinterpreted as "curt" sarcasm.

Christiana has had an Emergency Department for 30 years now!!!

Having an emergency department and being an Academic Deprtment of Emergency Medicine are NOT the same thing.

My next post was sarcastic in response to

And your point? ....

Christiana has enjoyed departmental status for >30years and residency training program for >20... not many can say that!

You can hide in your "academic" semantics all you want. Let's get real.

 

[Flipchick]

Honestly, I don't think tonem was being rude or sarcastic. I think tonem was just trying to point out to shox that my post had already tried to differentiate between an academic vs. hospital department.

I was actually shocked at the responses to tonem's post, I didn't think that the post was that offensive or mean-spirited at all.

 

[SHOX]

What makes and academic department "academic"... to be or not to be... not really the riddle of the sphinx here!

My contention is that being at a university hospital and having an EM residency does not an academic program make... one can be a university affiliate with an EM residency and an active research depatment and be an "academic program". If one prefers to sit atop their ivory tower (more like tower of babel) and snicker at us mere mortals, more power to you... beware the high altitude cerebral edema (HACE).

The sarcasm is all in fun. I appologize if I offended anyone. This forum is meant to be fun and informative. The enemy of reason is pride... let's keep the discussion going.

 

[SuperflyMD]

Originally posted by SHOX
The enemy of reason is pride... let's keep the discussion going.

And the enemy of pride is....the third year of medical school....oh yeah, and marriage....and rejection letters...


jeez...how do some of us ever manage to get so cocky?

 

[tonem]

Originally posted by SHOX
What makes and academic department "academic"... to be or not to be... not really the riddle of the sphinx here!

Aha! What we have here is a failure to communicate!

SHOX is emphasizing the academic part of the phrase academic department. In that case I agree 100% you can be an "academic" program and not be on the SAEM list. My focus was on the department part of the phrase. Because I subscribe to the theory that in those ivory tower turf battles....a Department of Emergency Medicine wields more influence than a Division of Emergency Medicine does.

(ie: the Chairman of Emergency Medicine is more likely to go toe to toe with the Chairman of Radiology over resources than say the Chairman of Surgery or the Chairman of Medicine)