What acgme residency programs in the following competitive fields (neurosurg, ent, derm, ortho, plastic, etc) will not throw your applications into the trash because you are a DO?
Derm/Ortho/Neurosurg/ENT ACGME residency program that are DO friendly
- Thread starter HueySmith
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look for former AOA programs that are newly ACGME accredited
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Even then... Long Island Jewish nsx was AOA and all the DO apps go straight in the garbage now I hear
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It seems like these rumors are all over, but there is some truth. Wasn't there a former AOA Ortho who in the first year went to USMLE required and no more required aways? The temptation to take a top Tier MD with research and lower boards is not something that even former AOA are immune to. They like research and prestige too.
How about the ones that were ACGME to begin with? Any names?
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I believe such a list probably couldn't be created. My perception is that it happens to be an unwritten rule that DOs don't match to those specialties in ACGME programs because there are more than enough MD applicants for those spots. When a DO applicant matches into one of those spots, it's on a very limited basis with the applicant being probably more than qualified if the letters behind their name were "MD" instead.
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This happens pretty rarely; I doubt a list would help much because chances are it was something especially unique or impressive about the applicant that made it happen, not a sign that the program is open to DOs in general.
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People also forget that many AOA residencies are still heavily staffed by MDs, especially in NSG. Even if they were AOA previously, they aren't gonna have an inherent favouritism towards DOs that a program run by DOs would have.
Northwell is the perfect example of this - it was an AOA programme largely staffed by MDs which became affiliated w a low tier MD school and now hasn't taken a DO in 6 years.
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AnatomyGrey12
I do agree overall, however stats like this are just dumb. In a field like neurosurg I could probably count on two hands how many applied seriously to ACGME programs and had the stones to skip the AOA match.
OP, the only place that I would actually consider "DO friendly" in these fields is the Mayo Clinic surprisingly enough. And by "DO friendly" I mean that you must be just as good as the students they usually take. If you can put together such an impressive app, then they will give you a fair shake. Much easier said than done.
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If you're an OMS-1/2, no point in asking now because things will be different by the time you apply.
If you're an OMS-3, depends on your CV. Most programs will take a look at a DO applicant with high scores and a solid CV that looks indistinguishable from an MD applicant (multiple pubs in journals, presentations at national conferences, LORs from leaders in the field, etc.).
If you're an OMS-4, you are late.
If you're an OMS-3, depends on your CV. Most programs will take a look at a DO applicant with high scores and a solid CV that looks indistinguishable from an MD applicant (multiple pubs in journals, presentations at national conferences, LORs from leaders in the field, etc.).
If you're an OMS-4, you are late.
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It's sad but DO really is becoming the degree of primary care and low tier specialties
Seems like it to me too.
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AnatomyGrey12
Spoiler: It's always been that
There will always be the opportunity for the students who excel to go into the fields they want, but average DO students (with average to below average boards) will be limited. I'm as pro-DO as they get, and DOs do have a good amount of opportunities but it does limit you and all applicants should know that going in.
*this isn't for you rather for the pre-meds who lurk in the shadows.
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68PGunner
So out of the following specialties including Anes, EM, FM, IM, IM/Peds, Neurosurgery, Neurology, OB Gyn, Derm, Ophthalmology, Orthopedic Surgery, ENT, Pathology, Pediatrics, PMR, Psychiatry, Radiology, General Surgery, and Urology, you're only boned as a DO if you're shooting for Neurosurgery, Ophthalmology, Ortho, ENT, Derm, Urology, and maybe Gen Surgery. So, it's not the end of the world. If you're someone who's shooting for Ortho/ENT/Neurosurgery/Derm, you should have gunned harder for a MD acceptance if you're one of those this-field-or-bust kind of people.
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Don't forget Derm!
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Another question that can be answered by referring the OP to the NRMP residency data (Just google it). It holds true until 2019 at least...
Also: if PDs don't even know wtf is going to happen with the merger, neither do people posting out of their asses.
Also: if PDs don't even know wtf is going to happen with the merger, neither do people posting out of their asses.
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There used to be a time when DOs could say they wanted to do ortho or derm without someone looking at them like they were crazy. Those days are gone though. There was a lot of optimism and ambiguity surrounding the merger but the chips have pretty much fallen into place and it looks like we got a raw deal. No more protected AOA spots in competitive specialties pretty much sealed our fate. Luckily I went in knowing I wanted EM or gas and both are still well within my reach, but for those going for more competitive specialties the climb is steeper than ever.
Here's a good place to start.
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Main-Match-Results-by-State-and-Specialty-2017.pdf
I'm sure you can find the past years' versions of this and see what states have DOs going into these specialties and then do some digging into the programs in that state.
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Main-Match-Results-by-State-and-Specialty-2017.pdf
I'm sure you can find the past years' versions of this and see what states have DOs going into these specialties and then do some digging into the programs in that state.
So true though, I feel sorry for those who are going after dermatology and orthopedic in my class. Granted, they are doing pretty well in school, but still...
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I suspect that many orthopedic programs, despite the merger, may continue to favor DO applicants.
Source: ortho resident in contact with other ortho residents from other programs
Source: ortho resident in contact with other ortho residents from other programs
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...and you would think a programme that was former AOA with strong ties to the local DO school would be one worth rolling the dice on. Yet it didn't pan out that way.
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If last year's match stats were any predictor, matching EM or even OB will be as challenging as matching surgery within the next decade. Count how many programs had open seats in EM or OB during the SOAP.
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AnatomyGrey12
Eh I would say gen surg is a reasonable goal for an incoming DO student. It's relatively competitive to but not overtly so. A decent board score (230+) with decent clinical grades, and some research will have some good success. The reason people don't match well from DO schools is they have no idea how to apply to ACGME gen surg. I've heard too many stories of people applying with only COMLEX, Step 1 below 220, bad grades, only applied to a very specific geographical region, skipped the AOA match with only 3 or less ACGME interviews etc. The mistakes that are made applying to gen surg are numerous and deflate the match data.
Eh apart from the first years who all come in saying ortho the students I know that are serious about ortho are going to be pretty competitive applicants. High board scores, good research, networking, etc. Getting those fields now as a DO just takes knowledge of knowing what it takes to play that game. Derm has always received sideways glances.
Even before the number of people going into those fields was so small it isn't like there will be some huge shift in people out of those fields. I can't predict how the merger will work out exactly, but for those who line their ducks up right they will probably end up just fine.
Not when they are considered the true home program of an MD school....
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68PGunner
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Yep, for Mayo doesn't matter if you are US MD, US DO, or even graduated from the Caribbean (yes Caribbean) as long as you are one of the best they will take you.
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It's interesting you say that because there was another post that said nearly the exact same thing you said in another very similar topic, and that person claimed to be an MD student, yet in another thread, he was posing as a DO student.
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What if they get killer board scores? I feel like everything hinges on one (two) numbers.
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AnatomyGrey12
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I didn't mean to imply it was you. I apologize if I made you think so. It's just I had an extreme deja vu with your comment, and someone else posted something very similar to your post a while back in another topic, saying he was an MD student being pro-DO, but passive aggressively talking down on us at the same time. Then another fellow SDN'er called out on his BS when they found a topic where he was saying he was a DO student.
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AnatomyGrey12
Ah yes I remember that!
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AnatomyGrey12
Consistently? Yes. Remember you are literally talking about a handful or two of people every year who go the ACGME route in these specialties. Why are you so concerned about it?
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68PGunner
I think the general consensus is that Midwest programs will look at your DO application once you have made the prescreen cutoff for Step 1. Cleveland Clinic and Mayo are two top programs that will look at your application as a DO, MD, and IMG once you have made the prescreen cutoff and judge you on the merits on your application.
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I can't speak for other specialties, but I can speak for derm. The DOs who are gunning for derm starting this year are SOL. As of this year's AOA match, there is a 50% in 1st year DO only Derm positions. Conversely, available MD derm positions have increased by 10%. This is the last year DO derm programs can recruit new resident without a full INITIAL ACCREDITATION from ACGME. Even for this year's DO Match, PRE-ACCREDITATION is required for a program to participate.
I wouldn't go as far as to say AOA shot itself in the foot. But I think AOA is definitely sacrificing the limbs to save the trunk. It has relegated vast majority of DO grads to primary care while limit the competitive specialty availability.
The relevent discussion is in this post.
question about program selection
I wouldn't go as far as to say AOA shot itself in the foot. But I think AOA is definitely sacrificing the limbs to save the trunk. It has relegated vast majority of DO grads to primary care while limit the competitive specialty availability.
The relevent discussion is in this post.
question about program selection
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deleted831695
If you have the seriously baller app for those fields, and you're applying when the merger has hit, then at least you don't have to choose between ACGME and AOA and can literally apply everywhere and see what happens. I met someone from my school who matched ACGME ENT a couple of years ago, so it's not impossible; you just have to be flexible to go anywhere if that's your passion.
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...that has only matched one home student in its existence
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Literally every single year less and less DOs enter primary care fields.
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DOs used to have more AOA ortho or derm programs where a good audition month can make up for medicore scores and a "people" person can thrive more than exam crushers. That's becoming less and less of a case
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AnatomyGrey12
We were already moving in that direction before the merger.
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There's a huge bias against DOs in nsurg, I've heard it from attendings directly.
A few programs have accepted DOs, but this is rare. Loma Linda did, but they're closing. I know Geisinger has in the past.
Point is, the numbers are so low, and we don't know how many DOs apply in the first place, that nothing can really be said. You can always be program X's first DO. I know DOs applying ACGME nsurg this cycle. Might be worth emailing the few DOs in residency currently for their take.
A few programs have accepted DOs, but this is rare. Loma Linda did, but they're closing. I know Geisinger has in the past.
Point is, the numbers are so low, and we don't know how many DOs apply in the first place, that nothing can really be said. You can always be program X's first DO. I know DOs applying ACGME nsurg this cycle. Might be worth emailing the few DOs in residency currently for their take.
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AnatomyGrey12
That's unfortunate, they had two at one point. I know Rochester and Tulane each have one as well.
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The merger will be the main test, as you had to be quite daring to be a DO and forgo the AOA match in these specialties in the past. So there will be a handful of pioneering matches in 2020, but the safety net loss will probably show stagnant or lower overall matches for DOs in these fields. You need to be ultracompetitive to get an ultracompetitive match no matter what school you attend, there's just added difficulty coming from a DO school for a number of reasons.
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In my opinion and experience, a DO student matching at low mid tier ACGME university programs for competitive things like derm or neurosurgery have stats competitive enough for MGH or UCSF if they were in an average MD program.
Not only do they have to be competitive, they have to be MORE competitive than the rest.
Not only do they have to be competitive, they have to be MORE competitive than the rest.
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I have to agree.
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Imagine if a nxsrg university program as old and developed as Loma Linda's is closing how few former AOA "specialty" programs will survive the merger. Even if some/most of these programs achieve accreditation, maintaining accreditation is equally challenging with underdeveloped infrastructure and minimal/nonexistent university backing.
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And then there's me, DO student just trying to get into that mid-tier academic ACGME IM program.
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If you look at the PD survey, you'll see that there are actually many programs in these fields that *consider* DOs.
For these programs, it's something like 60-75% never rank DOs, 25-30% rarely rank DOs, and 0-10% often rank DOs.
This means that approximately 1/3 of such programs will actually consider a DO's application.
But consider doesn't mean rank highly. For that, you need to actually be competitive with the MDs. Obviously board scores, but it seems like the real hurdle for a DO is a) the research and b) the LORs from people who's words actually hold weight.
I mean, I think a DO with a) a 250+ step 1, b) 2-4 solid pubs in the field, and c) LORs from people that matter, will probably have a decent shot of matching one of these fields in ACGME. But the number of DOs with all of these are extremely small... and the number of DOs willing to skip the AOA match even smaller.
For these programs, it's something like 60-75% never rank DOs, 25-30% rarely rank DOs, and 0-10% often rank DOs.
This means that approximately 1/3 of such programs will actually consider a DO's application.
But consider doesn't mean rank highly. For that, you need to actually be competitive with the MDs. Obviously board scores, but it seems like the real hurdle for a DO is a) the research and b) the LORs from people who's words actually hold weight.
I mean, I think a DO with a) a 250+ step 1, b) 2-4 solid pubs in the field, and c) LORs from people that matter, will probably have a decent shot of matching one of these fields in ACGME. But the number of DOs with all of these are extremely small... and the number of DOs willing to skip the AOA match even smaller.
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If you go to the radiology forum, there are DOs with 250s that are hurting for interviews when apps from USMD increased by about 25% this year it seems.
Best bet is still the AOA programs.
