Derm/Ortho/Neurosurg/ENT ACGME residency program that are DO friendly

[Lexdiamondz]

If you look at the PD survey, you'll see that there are actually many programs in these fields that *consider* DOs.

For these programs, it's something like 60-75% never rank DOs, 25-30% rarely rank DOs, and 0-10% often rank DOs.

This means that approximately 1/3 of such programs will actually consider a DO's application.

But consider doesn't mean rank highly. For that, you need to actually be competitive with the MDs. Obviously board scores, but it seems like the real hurdle for a DO is a) the research and b) the LORs from people who's words actually hold weight.

I mean, I think a DO with a) a 250+ step 1, b) 2-4 solid pubs in the field, and c) LORs from people that matter, will probably have a decent shot of matching one of these fields in ACGME. But the number of DOs with all of these are extremely small... and the number of DOs willing to skip the AOA match even smaller.

The other issue here is that these fields all have very low #s of PGY-1 or PGY-2 spots (for non-advanced ones). An average program in any one of the aforementioned fields has 3-5 residents/yr, and most heavily recruit from home students and rotators so if you end up lower than #10 or 15 on a PDs ranklist, there's no way in hell you're matching there. Even if you pass all the hurdles you mentioned, you still have to usurp X number of MDs on the ranklist to have a decent shot at matching.

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[HueySmith]

This thread has been nothing but hope and sunshine.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

This thread has been nothing but hope and sunshine.

What did you expect? You literally asked about the most competitive fields.... the fields where even most MD students don't have a shot.

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

Honestly, we should all be happy that surgical specialties have such high barriers to entrance. Surgery is literally the last field where we want to sacrifice technical and academic skill for other attributes. I think as a whole, DO schools aim to bring other attributes to medicine (although they often fail through silly, pointless classes). Its the name of the game, MD schools set the stage for research, leadership in a field, and networking. If you really want it, its possible. I just hate to see people get all bitter when they were the ones who convinced these DO adcomss they were all into primary care and patient interaction.

 

[Peach Newport]

Honestly, we should all be happy that surgical specialties have such high barriers to entrance. Surgery is literally the last field where we want to sacrifice technical and academic skill for other attributes. I think as a whole, DO schools aim to bring other attributes to medicine (although they often fail through silly, pointless classes). Its the name of the game, MD schools set the stage for research, leadership in a field, and networking. If you really want it, its possible. I just hate to see people get all bitter when they were the ones who convinced these DO adcomss they were all into primary care and patient interaction.

If this was a real meritocracy, IMGs with 280 step 1s, 6 publications in the field, and top LORs and extracurriculars wouldn't be virtually always case aside for the USMD with a 240 and 2 retrospectives.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Surgery is literally the last field where we want to sacrifice technical and academic skill for other attributes.

Eh, I've heard multiple surgeons say they could teach a monkey to operate. Any skill can be learned with lots of practice. I am also extremely skeptical that a 250 is necessary for someone to make a good surgeon. Having common sense and hard work can make up for a lot.

 

[frappalino16]

If you go to the radiology forum, there are DOs with 250s that are hurting for interviews when apps from USMD increased by about 25% this year it seems.

Best bet is still the AOA programs.

AOA programs for surgical specialties and derm. Definitely would not go for an AOA radiology program.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

AOA programs for surgical specialties and derm. Definitely would not go for an AOA radiology program.

Yes, you can say that if DO can easily match into radiology. When radiology becomes hypercompetitive again, you'll be glad that those AOA programs exist.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Yes, you can say that if DO can easily match into radiology. When radiology becomes hypercompetitive again, you'll be glad that those AOA programs exist.

92% of DOs matched radiology....

 

[frappalino16]

Yes, you can say that if DO can easily match into radiology. When radiology becomes hypercompetitive again, you'll be glad that those AOA programs exist.

I suspect that there will always be a bunch of radiology programs that are both DO and IMG friendly that will continue to welcome DO applicants with a competitive application. Still, I'll stick with my statement that you should never go for an AOA radiology program, especially when the doors to ACGME programs with infinitely better resources, pathology, and fellowship opportunities are definitely still available

 

[Peach Newport]

92% of DOs matched radiology....

Specialties are an economy - they wax and wane in popularity, bubbles boom and burst.

DR has been down since '08 or so - fear of the job market made it a less desirable specialty for USMDs, and the DOs snatched up a lot of spots - they bought low. But DR is coming back in a big way (remember, DR is a classic lifestyle specialty - it's the R in ROAD) - I'm not suprised that DOs are having a bit of trouble matching as well as they did in previous years.

Anesthesia has been down for a while also due to fear of CRNAs and the difficulty getting work without a fellowship (so speaketh SDN). If the job market starts booming, or Trump decides to deport all the CRNAs, you best believe DOs aren't gonna be matching gas by the dozens like now.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

The reality is, if there are more USMD demand than spots there is, DO will have a harder time matching. If family medicine suddenly reimburse 1M tomorrow, and the spot cut down to 500, you will have no DO in FM.

 

[HueySmith]

The reality is, if there are more USMD demand than spots there is, DO will have a harder time matching. If family medicine suddenly reimburse 1M tomorrow, and the spot cut down to 500, you will have no DO in FM.

So what you mean is that DOs only get to match is because there are not enough MDs to take our place?

 

[CCmetal94]

The reality is, if there are more USMD demand than spots there is, DO will have a harder time matching. If family medicine suddenly reimburse 1M tomorrow, and the spot cut down to 500, you will have no DO in FM.

That's just absurd. DOs matching in competitive ACGME programs most likely beat out a vast number of qualified MD applicants for that spot. Those programs aren't hurting for applicants. A DO doesn't just get a spot after all the Md applicants run out

 

[68PGunner]

There is some truth to DrfluffyMD posts. If I'm gunning for a super competitive residency, I would be super depressed at this moment. The reality is that when you choose to go DO instead of opting for a gap year and shooting for a MD, you should be one of those people who will be happy with 70-80% of the specialties out there. That's still a solid chance. No, a DO isn't limited to PCP. As someone who hates talking to pts over their habit of smoking, eating fat food, and being a potato couch, I would punch the entire DO leadership if I'm being told that I should be glad about practicing family medicine in Wyoming. That's a non-starter. Thankfully, that isn't the reality.

 

[Peach Newport]

There is some truth to DrfluffyMD posts. If I'm gunning for a super competitive residency, I would be super depressed at this moment. The reality is that when you choose to go DO instead of opting for a gap year and shooting for a MD, you should be one of those people who will be happy with 70-80% of the specialties out there. That's still a solid chance. No, a DO isn't limited to PCP. As someone who hates talking to pts over their habit of smoking, eating fat food, and being a potato couch, I would punch the entire DO leadership if I'm being told that I should be glad about practicing family medicine in Wyoming. That's a non-starter. Thankfully, that isn't the reality.

Potato couches are literally the worst kind of couches. No lumbar support whatsoever. If my patient came to me as a potato couch, I'd seriously advise him to switch to leather, or even suede.

 

[HueySmith]

So what specialties are open mostly to DOs after the merger?

 

[IslandStyle808]

Yes, you can say that if DO can easily match into radiology. When radiology becomes hypercompetitive again, you'll be glad that those AOA programs exist.

But DOs in the past avoided them like the plague...

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

But DOs in the past avoided them like the plague...

I wonder how that will change with them now being ACGME accredited.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I wonder how that will change with them now being ACGME accredited.

Probably not as much as we think.

 

[atomheart]

This thread has been nothing but hope and sunshine.

You are the same person who made the thread about comparing yourself to your friends in allopathic schools.

It really looks like you're fishing for negativity. I honestly believe you should consider dropping out of DO school if all you care about is prestige. You don't need to be a derm/ortho/neurosurgeon/otorhinolaryngologist to have a satisfying and financially rewarding career in medicine.

 

[HueySmith]

You are the same person who made the thread about comparing yourself to your friends in allopathic schools.

It really looks like you're fishing for negativity. I honestly believe you should consider dropping out of DO school if all you care about is prestige. You don't need to be a derm/ortho/neurosurgeon/otorhinolaryngologist to have a satisfying and financially rewarding career in medicine.

Thanks for the self-righteous answer. I look forward to all your other noncontributory and condescending responses.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

So what you mean is that DOs only get to match is because there are not enough MDs to take our place?

I mean, pre-merger that's pretty much the case. The ACGME currently has more PGY-1 spots than there are US-Senior Allopathic graduates, hence why there are any DOs or IMGs in ACGME programs at all.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

I mean, pre-merger that's pretty much the case. The ACGME currently has more PGY-1 spots than there are US-Senior Allopathic graduates, hence why there are any DOs or IMGs in ACGME programs at all.

This will probably be the case eventually down the line for highly competitive specialities as well. I hate to say it, but the merger is overall beneficial for most DOs but very detrimental for those who want competitive specialities like ortho or derm. Some competitive specialities never had DO programs like radonc or IR and it won't matter for those.

 

[68PGunner]

This will probably be the case eventually down the line for highly competitive specialities as well. I hate to say it, but the merger is overall beneficial for most DOs but very detrimental for those who want competitive specialities like ortho or derm. Some competitive specialities never had DO programs like radonc or IR and it won't matter for those.

How is the merger beneficial for most DOs? I'm curious about your take on this issue from the MD side.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

How is the merger beneficial for most DOs? I'm curious about your take on this issue from the MD side.

Yes, unification of training accreditation requirements protect patients and residents from significant deviation from the norm.
Improved fellowship prospect for students at noncompetitive specialities.
However, I was told by DO colleagues that to get ortho used to not be that competitive and was basically a dance of getting to know the right people. Now you actually have to compete base on grades and scores and research rather than how chill you act on audition rotation.

 

[68PGunner]

Yes, unification of training accreditation requirements protect patients and residents from significant deviation from the norm.
Improved fellowship prospect for students at noncompetitive specialities.
However, I was told by DO colleagues that to get ortho used to not be that competitive and was basically a dance of getting to know the right people. Now you actually have to compete base on grades and scores and research rather than how chill you act on audition rotation.

What kind of fellowships are we talking about here? What kinds of Gas, Neuro, and IM fellowships belong to the noncompetitive pile?

 

[Lexdiamondz]

What kind of fellowships are we talking about here? What kinds of Gas, Neuro, and IM fellowships belong to the noncompetitive pile?

It's more that those fields are not particularly competitive, and so as a result going ACGME means that you have access to fellowships that otherwise would be blocked to AOA grads.