Derner Institute at Adelphi University

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RCCH11

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I was reading at rather large post about the program at AU that was filled with inaccurate information. I noticed that the conversation went off topic but I want to be sure that the original poster has the correct information. If you are reading this post its important to remember that folks who have achieved their phd already have biases toward the supremacy of their own institution. There are others on this board who are on the waitlist and have an interest in dissuading you from attending. I realize your decision is made but I hope this will make you consider all the facts.

Derner School Receives Fourth in World Ranking

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The F is the "Center for World University Rankings?" Also, please fill us in on the incorrect information that was provided. Were we wrong about the tuition, or the abysmal EPPP pass rates?
 
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It took me a moment to realize that was an interrogative statement. I think you meant "What the F..."? As the name implies, that organization is centered out of the middle east and ranks universities. They use an amalgamated approach whereas the US News ranking relies on administrator surveys.

As far as the EPPP pass rates I asked this question to the dean of the Institute. He said " yes, it's a statistical anomaly I suppose. We don't believe in teaching to an exam. We believe in creating excellent clinicians and researchers. The exam will follow that". He's a former faculty member at the University of Pennsylvania- a very impressive person too.

The tuition is approximately 45k with a 15k remittance. Later years are billed at part time status. The former thread included numbers as high as $200k. I'm not sure where that came from. Also there was no mention of work study, TA's, merit scholarship, grants...it was all very one sided. Derner is a very competitive program and I can understand being resentful if you were declined enrollment but psychology_dreamer was looking for advice and it took a very negative turn. Will it be expensive- sure. Will you be able to pay it off- yes. I am not sure why this is such a difficult concept.
 
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Consistently low match rates are not an anomaly. No one but Taylor/PsychPrep/AR teach to the exam. It sounds like an excuse to "explain away" a deficiency. Also, I believe the former threads also added in expected living costs and addition of principal due to forbearance, not really a difficult concept to understand at all.

Derner is a very competitive program and I can understand being resentful if you were declined enrollment

I still fail to see where people were being inaccurate. All they are doing is presenting actual, published, numbers, and working them out. And, are you implying that anyone who has said anything negative about Adelphi is only doing so because they were rejected by the program? Talk about inaccuracy and bias...
 
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I'm curious Wis...where did you receive training?
 
No hidden agenda...just curiosity.
 
No I can hear the passion with which you espouse funding. I am not arguing that funding isn't best if available. I was asking what institution you studied at.
 
Well then, I am inclined to agree with Igrette...you do indeed know nothing Jon Snow.

There are many of us in the field who think analysis is the only way to form a robust foundation upon which cognitive behavioral methods can be employed. No one has ever said to me "I spent to much time learning analysis" but I have spoken to many behaviorists who feel limited by the protocols rigidity and impotent to help patients connect the dots. (I am an integrationist)
 
Some of us prefer our relative anonymity. A handful on here know me personally, I'm more than happy to keep it that way. If at any time you want to ask the real question behind that, shoot.

That was the real question...I don't see how naming the institution creates an anonymity issue. Even the likes of Batman and Sherlock Holmes (a much more interesting debate would be who- in fact- is the worlds greatest detective) couldn't deduce your identity based on a single data point.
 
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"In short, there’s a lot to learn from it. A program would be remiss to neglect it. It’s nothing to take pride in as a training model"

We will have to agree to disagree. "I can see so far, because I stand on the shoulders of giants"
 
Funded programs have small cohorts. He has 1000s of posts. It’s not a single data point.

Nobody cares who (s)he is...that was my point...its an internet board...no one is going to parse through thousands of posts to piece together who Wis is...its cute that you defend him/her though
 
Ok. But, average debt upon graduation is what at your institution?

How much higher is this than a program that offers full tuition remission (not just taking 15k off a completely arbitrary 45k number)?

How many grads get into apa approved internships?

How many grads accept unpaid post docs?

How many grads have even median retirement savings by the time they are 45?

How many grads pay off their loans within 20 years?

How many students quit before they finish the degree?

What is the average time of completion of a degree and how does it compare to other programs?

Where and in what capacity do Adelphi grads practice?

Also, people fail the eppp, not because their program didn’t teach to the test, but because they lack intellectual ability/study skills, anxiety problems not withstanding. High fail rates of an eppp from a program generally indicate low admittance standards.

ps. Any list that has Adelphi as 4th in the world in the context of rating quality of clin psych education is likely to be using some incredibly flawed metrics.

I would like to read OP's responses to these questions. All of them are fair questions. I'm most interested in the first question as it is obviously not easily accessible information. Adelphi is not clear at all about their funding.

OP mentioned the availability of TA and GA positions. What is the average total financial package for 1st years? 2nd? 3rd and beyond?
 
If you are reading this post its important to remember that folks who have achieved their phd already have biases toward the supremacy of their own institution.

Except this is not the argument people were making re: Adelphi. They weren't arguing that their alma mater is better than Adelphi or even arguing in favor of any program for that matter. Instead, they were arguing against a program that is very expensive, performs poorly on objective outcome metrics (e.g., EPPP), and relies on captive internships to game the internship match system stats.

There are others on this board who are on the waitlist and have an interest in dissuading you from attending.

This is borderline paranoid.

It took me a moment to realize that was an interrogative statement. I think you meant "What the F..."? As the name implies, that organization is centered out of the middle east and ranks universities. They use an amalgamated approach whereas the US News ranking relies on administrator surveys.

No one actually in the field cares about this ranking system. Regardless, do you not see how this is confirmation bias by searching for some ranking system that casts Adelphi in a good light despite all other objective metrics to the contrary?

As far as the EPPP pass rates I asked this question to the dean of the Institute. He said " yes, it's a statistical anomaly I suppose. We don't believe in teaching to an exam. We believe in creating excellent clinicians and researchers. The exam will follow that". He's a former faculty member at the University of Pennsylvania- a very impressive person too.

This is just a deflecting rationalization. A full 1/3 of its grads can't pass the EPPP, which is incredibly alarming,

http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.asppb.net/resource/resmgr/EPPP_/2016_Scores_by_Doctoral_Prog.pdf

The tuition is approximately 45k with a 15k remittance. Later years are billed at part time status. The former thread included numbers as high as $200k. I'm not sure where that came from. Also there was no mention of work study, TA's, merit scholarship, grants...it was all very one sided. Derner is a very competitive program and I can understand being resentful if you were declined enrollment but psychology_dreamer was looking for advice and it took a very negative turn.

This is just more deflection with a hint of paranoia. Do you really think everyone in that thread is critical of Adelphi based on being denied admission?

Will it be expensive- sure. Will you be able to pay it off- yes. I am not sure why this is such a difficult concept.

You are woefully underestimating the gravity of the funding situation and what it's like to have six figures of debt as a psychologist. You're talking about easily $100,000 in tuition costs alone before factoring in conference travel, internship applications and interviews, living expenses, and other unforeseen costs (e.g., major car repairs). This is just not manageable for most people based on the median earnings for psychologists, which is especially problematic for th 1/3 of Adelphi grads who can't pass the EPPP.

No I can hear the passion with which you espouse funding. I am not arguing that funding isn't best if available. I was asking what institution you studied at.

You act like funding is some kind of personal lark or interest rather than a hugely consequential matter, both in terms of your financial standing/future and a sign of the quality of your program.

I'm curious Wis...where did you receive training?
Nobody cares who (s)he is...that was my point...its an internet board...no one is going to parse through thousands of posts to piece together who Wis is...its cute that you defend him/her though

If "nobody cares" then why ask and be so insistent about it?

I would like to read OP's responses to these questions. All of them are fair questions. I'm most interested in the first question as it is obviously not easily accessible information. Adelphi is not clear at all about their funding.

OP mentioned the availability of TA and GA positions. What is the average total financial package for 1st years? 2nd? 3rd and beyond?

This is purposeful. These kinds of programs that are largely or completely unfunded, have poor outcome stats, and rely on captive internships to game the system are intentionally opaque about their funding.
 
Nobody cares who (s)he is...that was my point...its an internet board...no one is going to parse through thousands of posts to piece together who Wis is...its cute that you defend him/her though
I have never disclosed on here who I am or what institution I am with. I don't really care about anonymity but it is not relevant to the discussions I have. Just before I got on this forum a few minutes ago I was replying to an email which started from a discussion here publically on the forums. I mentioned there that I wanted to be part of an email chain to discuss an issue and another poster included me as I requested, knowing who I was immediately. I suspect others could figure it out pretty easily as well. Psychology is a small world. Folks who want privacy on here are aware of that.
 
Another Adelphi thread and me with no popcorn.


From what I recall, Adelphi has no consistent financial aid packages and obtaining extra funding was more luck from what I recall. GA positions in labs got grants etc. No guarantee of funding across years. Do they still do that ridiculous group interview?
 
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My impression from reading SDN for a while is that members in other parts of the country underestimate the presence of psychoanalytic/psychodynamic therapy in the Northeast. One's evaluation of a school like Adelphi is going to depend pretty heavily on whether you think psychodynamic therapy is an outdated fossil or an effective treatment.

From what I can tell, Adelphi has an overall good reputation for developing psychodynamic clinicians. The concerns about funding, EPPP and match rates are real concerns. I'm sure every class produces a range of outcomes, from strong success down to total disasters and personal tragedies.
 
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My impression from reading SDN for a while is that members in other parts of the country underestimate the presence of psychoanalytic/psychodynamic therapy in the Northeast. One's evaluation of a school like Adelphi is going to depend pretty heavily on whether you think psychodynamic therapy is an outdated fossil or an effective treatment.

From what I can tell, Adelphi has an overall good reputation for developing psychodynamic clinicians. The concerns about funding, EPPP and match rates are real concerns. I'm sure every class produces a range of outcomes, from strong success down to total disasters and personal tragedies.
I can't speak for others but this wasnt the factor that led to my opinion of Adelphi. I'm aware of orientation training tendencies in the NE and my concerns about the program (posted in other threads) have nothing to do with that.
 
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I usually don't respond to these, but I could not help myself . As a student heavily involved in the psychodynamic world, I can assure you that Harvard, Columbia, and New York University are not top-tier psychoanalytic-psychology programs (whatever that means). NYU has a well known psychoanalytic institute---not a psychology program, but Harvard? Columbia? Maybe they are referring to Teachers College or the Columbia Psychoanalytic Institute? The rankings are dubious at best.

I too was surprised to see Harvard and NYU. I had assumed Columbia referred to teachers college.

What schools would you put on that list? I get the impression that CCNY is one of the few well-regarded schools that brand themselves as primarily psychodynamic that happens to have (decent) funding/match rates.
 
I can't speak for others but this wasnt the factor that led to my opinion of Adelphi. I'm aware of orientation training tendencies in the NE and my concerns about the program (posted in other threads) have nothing to do with that.

Agreed. My thoughts on psychodynamic/analytic training are in no way influencing my opinion on Adelphi either. My evaluation is based on the objective data in this thread. You can have a good psychodynamic training and still go to a solid program. I went to an R1 PhD program with an almost 100% APA internship match rate and almost 100% EPPP pass/licensure rate, was fully-funded, and had good dynamic training experiences and opportunities (in addition to other orientations/approaches).
 
I'm sure every class produces a range of outcomes, from strong success down to total disasters and personal tragedies.

And this is the problem that people who defend these kinds of programs don't understand. They cherry pick a single year when their match rate or EPPP pass rate was high and ignore the glaring inconsistencies.

Inconsistency of outcomes could mean different things (e.g., insufficient vetting of applicants, heterogeneous training, wide disparities in aptitude and skills within and between cohorts), but none of them are good.
 
I'm a psychodynamically trained and practicing clinician. I've worked with Derner students and alumni. I've heard horror stories about their training experiences and faculty members with whom they worked. I'm hesitant to share these stories on the Internet. Also, the 'ranking' to which you linked is based on number of publications, not quality of training or student experience.

And how do we know that you aren't one of those nefarious students just trying to get off the waitlist? *cue accusatory music* Also, the moon landing was faked and 9/11 was an inside job. DEEP STATE!
 
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I too was surprised to see Harvard and NYU. I had assumed Columbia referred to teachers college.

What schools would you put on that list? I get the impression that CCNY is one of the few well-regarded schools that brand themselves as primarily psychodynamic that happens to have (decent) funding/match rates.
 
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