Desirable Residency Type, Undesirable Location

[bvand086]

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Can anyone speak to this idea? If you really don't care WHERE your residency is? I hear all of this talk about difficulties getting blah specialty in desirable locations, what if you really just do not care where you go so long as you get your specialty?

thanks in advance.

 

[cliquesh]

Can anyone speak to this idea? If you really don't care WHERE your residency is? I hear all of this talk about difficulties getting blah specialty in desirable locations, what if you really just do not care where you go so long as you get your specialty?

thanks in advance.

What do you want to know? An undesirable location is easier to match than a desireable one, but matching Dermatology/orthopedics/rad-onc in north Dakota would still be impossible as a DO. If you on the other hand want to do anesthesia or radiology, which are moderately competitive, you'll likely match if you are willing to go anywhere, assuming your grades/boards are half decent.

 

[bvand086]

What do you want to know? An undesirable location is easier to match than a desireable one, but matching Dermatology/orthopedics/rad-onc in north Dakota would still be impossible as a DO. If you on the other hand want to do anesthesia or radiology, which are moderately competitive, you'll likely match if you are willing to go anywhere, assuming your grades/boards are half decent.

thank you,

I guess thats what I am wondering. I am not yet deadset on one specialty over another. I have interests in a wide variety of specialties and I was just wondering how impossible is impossible for fairly competitive specialties.

I have absolutely no interest in Derm/Rad-Onc at this time. Radiology and Anesthesia are more interesting to me. Surgery is of quite a bit of interest to me and i am just wondering what makes a location 'undesirable' and how impossible is impossible?

Again, just wondering out of interest mostly, because I haven't set my mind on any one particular specialty.

 

[cliquesh]

Undesirable is totally subjective. In general, people are referring to Midwest programs in small cities, with cold winters, few restaurants/bars, and little entertainment. Basically, anything that isn't a major city or on the coasts. But you might be from Nebraska and you like small cities and hate cities like Chicago, NYC, or San Diego.

Surgery is, in general, DO unfriendly and If you go to a DO school and want to do surgery, you'll likely match at an AOA program, most of which are located in Michigan and Ohio. You can search DO residencies here http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/search/search.cfm

Acgme derm, rad-onc, orthopedics, urology, ENT and, maybe, opthmaology( some ACGME programs take DOs for opthmaology , like gesinger) are pretty much impossible as a DO. Impossible means 0-6 DOs match into these fields per year. More likely 0.

There are AOA residencies for the specialities listed above, except rad-onc, but there are few spots offered each year. 93 ortho, 20 ENT, 20 urology, and 14 opthmaology spots were offered in the 2012 match. http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2012prgstats.html There were 4600 DO graduates that year and about 2000 participated in the aoa match.

 

[bvand086]

Undesirable is totally subjective. In general, people are referring to Midwest programs in small cities, with cold winters, few restaurants/bars, and little entertainment. Basically, anything that isn't a major city or on the coasts. But you might be from Nebraska and you like small cities and hate cities like Chicago, NYC, or San Diego.

Surgery is, in general, DO unfriendly and If you go to a DO school and want to do surgery, you'll likely match at an AOA program, most of which are located in Michigan and Ohio. You can search DO residencies here http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/search/search.cfm

Acgme derm, rad-onc, orthopedics, urology, ENT and, maybe, opthmaology( some ACGME programs take DOs for opthmaology , like gesinger) are pretty much impossible as a DO.

There are AOA residencies for the specialities listed above, except rad-onc, but there are few spots offered each year. 93 ortho, 20 ENT, 20 urology, and 14 opthmaology spots were offered in the 2012 match. http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2012prgstats.html

Thank you! Can you speak to the disadvantages of an AOA residency? and will it matter in the least in the combined match?

 

[cliquesh]

Thank you! Can you speak to the disadvantages of an AOA residency? and will it matter in the least in the combined match?

Biggest disadvantage is that none of the AOA programs have a big name. When applying for fellowships, going to a big, well know residency helps a lot. With that said, however, people who attend "good" AOA residencies go on to decent Acgme fellowships, like http://www.pcomsurgery.org/Program-Alumni.php

Your salary is still the same and, in general, your employment opportunities should be the same. Some private hospitals/groups may discrimate against you, but you'll find a job.

Currently, there is a stigma that AOA residencies are inferior to Acgme residencies. This isn't really fair, but there are some bad aoa programs. If, however, the Acgme accredites current AOA programs, then you shouldn't worry about receiving a bad education anywhere.

 

[bvand086]

Biggest disadvantage is that none of the AOA programs have a big name. When applying for fellowships, going to a big, well know residency helps a lot. With that said, however, people who attend "good" AOA residencies go on to decent Acgme fellowships, like http://www.pcomsurgery.org/Program-Alumni.php

Your salary is still the same and, in general, your employment opportunities should be the same. Some private hospitals/groups may discrimate against you, but you'll find a job.

Currently, there is a stigma that AOA residencies are inferior to Acgme residencies. This isn't really fair, but there are some bad aoa programs. If, however, the Acgme accredites current AOA programs, then you shouldn't worry about receiving a bad education anywhere.

I really appreciate all the links and information, it really helps me understand it all. When the two (ACGME & AOA) combine to form one match, will all residencies be considered ACGME? I am wondering because I am from Canada, I am a dual citizen, and I am not sure where I want to end up. However, if I want to practice in Canada as a DO then I HAVE to do an ACGME accredited residency.

Any information on this subject is incredibly helpful and I really appreciate the time you have taken to answer my questions thus far.

 

[HalfListic]

Biggest disadvantage is that none of the AOA programs have a big name. When applying for fellowships, going to a big, well know residency helps a lot. With that said, however, people who attend "good" AOA residencies go on to decent Acgme fellowships, like http://www.pcomsurgery.org/Program-Alumni.php

Your salary is still the same and, in general, your employment opportunities should be the same. Some private hospitals/groups may discrimate against you, but you'll find a job.

Currently, there is a stigma that AOA residencies are inferior to Acgme residencies. This isn't really fair, but there are some bad aoa programs. SINCE, however, the Acgme accredites current AOA programs, then you shouldn't worry about receiving a bad education anywhere.

ftfy 😉

 

[HalfListic]

I really appreciate all the links and information, it really helps me understand it all. When the two (ACGME & AOA) combine to form one match, will all residencies be considered ACGME? I am wondering because I am from Canada, I am a dual citizen, and I am not sure where I want to end up. However, if I want to practice in Canada as a DO then I HAVE to do an ACGME accredited residency.

Any information on this subject is incredibly helpful and I really appreciate the time you have taken to answer my questions thus far.

By the time you match, all US GME training will be ACGME accredited, either solely or dually.

 

[cliquesh]

I really appreciate all the links and information, it really helps me understand it all. When the two (ACGME & AOA) combine to form one match, will all residencies be considered ACGME? I am wondering because I am from Canada, I am a dual citizen, and I am not sure where I want to end up. However, if I want to practice in Canada as a DO then I HAVE to do an ACGME accredited residency.

Any information on this subject is incredibly helpful and I really appreciate the time you have taken to answer my questions thus far.

I don't know and I don't think anyone can definitely say either way. If I were you, I'd assume that they won't be accredited by the Acgme or that Canada won't recognize them as such. So what are your options if that turned out to be true? Family medicine, internal medicine, emergency medicine, ob/gyn, pyschiatry, PM&R, pathology, general surgery, anesthiology, pediatrics, and radiology. It is unlikely you'll be able to match any other Acgme speciality and I don't known how being a Canadian complicates things, like if you need a visa or something. I guess your dual citizenship clears that up.

 

[MedPR]

By the time you match, all US GME training will be ACGME accredited, either solely or dually.

In a perfect world.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[HalfListic]

In a perfect world.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

did I/you miss something? thats where things are headed...

 

[HalfListic]

People are way too doom and gloom here...matching Derm or Ortho is difficult no matter which type of school you choose.

But, a lot of specializing comes down to self selection...those who squeak into MD school aren't likely to have an easier time matching over the top DO students, especially since there is a dual bias.

What's good for OP and other Canadians, is that by 2015 all GME training will be dually accredited, which will lessen headache and hopefully clear up confusion as well...

 

[cliquesh]

People are way too doom and gloom here...matching Derm or Ortho is difficult no matter which type of school you choose.

But, a lot of specializing comes down to self selection...those who squeak into MD school aren't likely to have an easier time matching over the top DO students, especially since there is a dual bias.

What's good for OP and other Canadians, is that by 2015 all GME training will be dually accredited, which will lessen headache and hopefully clear up confusion as well...

I agree. Dreams of derm, ortho and urology are not going to come true for most people. But, what kind of sucks that I didn't realize before I got to medical school, is there is more than just matching anywhere for a particular speciality. There is a huge variation between residency programs in the same field in terms of overall quality, facilities, education, resources, and fellowship opportunities. Matching IM is easy as a DO, but matching IM at a really good program is pretty impossible.

 

[HalfListic]

I agree. Dreams of derm, ortho and urology are not going to come true for most people. But, what kind of sucks that I didn't realize before I got to medical school, is there is more than just matching anywhere for a particular speciality. There is a huge variation between residency programs in the same field in terms of overall quality, facilities, education, resources, and fellowship opportunities. Matching IM is easy as a DO, but matching IM at a really good program is pretty impossible.

Im sure you are right...its tough all over.



Competitive things are so...competitive 😉

 

[ShyRem]

Many thoughts here.

1. Concentrate on getting INTO med school first.
2. Concentrate on doing well in your classes.
3. Concentrate on doing well in your boards.
4. TRY all of your rotations BEFORE you make up your mind about specialty. I have said this (many) times before - over 80% of all med students change their minds about what specialty they choose during third year med school. To set your mind before this is premature at best.
5. No one knows what will happen in the match at this point. Whether some residencies are AOA or all ACGME is anyone's guess.
6. What is competitive now may not be so later. There are plenty of derm and rads folks who will tell you that when they matched 20 years ago those were the "leftover" specialties and IM was a hot commodity. Given the numbers applying the past few years it seems that IM is getting more competitive again and other specialties are waning in popularity.

As for "oh, I've got all that figured out" regarding the above - I personally know at least 15 people that failed their boards the first time around. Most had to scramble into prelim positions and enter the match a second time, dreams of their desired competitive specialties dashed (and one in particular applied to every single program in her desired specialty both DO and MD - not a single interview granted).

One step at a time. Competitive specialties are just that - competitive no matter where they are. And the above students are correct -- the very best residencies of EVERY specialty are competitive. Get in, do well, figure out what you like. THEN see where you end up.

 

[Mehd School]

. Most had to scramble into prelim positions and enter the match a second time, dreams of their desired competitive specialties dashed (and one in particular applied to every single program in her desired specialty both DO and MD - not a single interview granted).

Out of curiosity, what is this person doing these days? Teaching for Kaplan?


I kid. I shouldn't have, though. What a terrible situation.

 

[ShyRem]

She scrambled into an FM spot. It wasn't easy for her to find a program that would take someone who failed boards twice.