Did you apply to MD and DO?

[Barton]

Did you apply to MD and DO schools, or just DO schools?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[PuppyLuv]

D.O. schools don't care if you apply to both (my opinion), i did that and a friend of mine apply to about 8 M.D. schools and 1 D.O. school and both of us are first years at D.O. school

 

[Ben01]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by PuppyLuv:
•D.O. schools don't care if you apply to both (my opinion), i did that and a friend of mine apply to about 8 M.D. schools and 1 D.O. school and both of us are first years at D.O. school•••••why would you do that? MD and DO schools have inherently different philosophies (granted it doesn't matter so much these days in terms of practical application but still...). Applying to both doesn't say much in terms of commitment to either philosophy. Someone who does this most likely doesn't REALLY want to be a DO.

 

[dude7]

who are you to tell another person you can't apply to both. Has the thought occured to you that possibly both philosophies are appealing???? It really strikes me that on these boards when someone posts something...people just want to question it in a negative way. I like MD and DO. I am applying to both..have a problem with that?

 

[Ben01]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by dude7:
•who are you to tell another person you can't apply to both. •••••Who am I to express my opinion? I'll tell you exactly who I am "dude". I'm a member of the discussion board who is engaging in a give and take of ideas as per the purpose of these forums!
•••quote:••••Has the thought occured to you that possibly both philosophies are appealing???? •••••Of course you will find them both appealing to a certain extent because they deal with the same subject (human medicine). However their philosophies and approaches to medicine are fundamentally different and, sometimes, in direct conflict (at least in theory). Medicine is a field that requires significant dedication and I don't really see how you can be dedicated to both (MD & DO). Example: Politics may be appealing to you but you can't run for office as a Democrat and a Republican.
•••quote:••••It really strikes me that on these boards when someone posts something...people just want to question it in a negative way.•••••Nobody is being "negative" (except you). It's called a DISCUSSION. Constructive Criticism. Give and Take. Get used to it.

•••quote:••••I like MD and DO. I am applying to both..have a problem with that? •••••Yes, I do.

 

[Atlas]

Let's set aside this whole commitment to philosophy carbunkle for right now. Let's imagine it's not important. Most of the DOs I know never practice their OMM maneuvers or holistic approach to healing anyways. They want to be on a equal level with MDs, so they don't use their osteopathic background as they were trained to. In the hospital I work in, especially the ER, you can't tell DOs from MDs. DOs treat 'em and street 'em just like the MDs. I know 5 DOs personally and none of them use OMM, so for the sake of discussion, let's pretend the philosophy argument doesn't stand right now. I don't see a problem applying to both MD and DO schools. Ben, you raise some interesting points. Your MD/DO-Dem/Rep analogy was interesting, but only true in one respect..the differences in philosophy of two political parties. In our society, MDs and DOs are equal and are practically the same. Anyone who tells you differently is lying to you. Dems and Reps are not the same in our society. Not even close. By applying to DO schools you are not committing yourself to the philosophy per se. By applying to medical school (MD or DO), you are applying to become a doctor, which is what most people care about anyways...not some philosophy. Doctors don't sit around discussing their "philosophies" once they are out practicing. Honestly, they could care less. They have more important things to worry about. So, looking at the real issue at hand, applying to MD and DO schools is beneficial for the applicant to maximize their chances of being accepted into medical school...of becoming a doctor like it or not. I know this may not sit well with you, but as you can see, some 70% of SDN users applied to both for some reason. It only makes sense (even if you truely believe in the osteopathic philosophy) to apply to your state MD school, especially if you stand a good chance of getting in. Therefore, it's not a problem to apply to both. Most DO schools recognize that many students apply to both in hopes of getting in somewhere. Let's face it, many students could care less about the philosophy of either discipline. I appreciate your "good ol boy" attitude about preserving the commitment to the DO philosophy, but let's face it, not everyone has the level of dedication to the osteopathic philosophy you and I have. I think the osteopathic philosophy is a great thing. But, I won't let my faith in it stop me from applying to my state MD schools.

Take care

Atlas

 

[hosskp1]

Osteopathic schools already know that 99% of their applicants apply to both osteopathic and allpathic school. For the most part, it makes no difference in their selection. Remember, the interview can only help a little bit, but it can hurt you much worse if you screw up. As a soon to be fourth year at an osteopathic school-- let me tell you-- APPLY TO BOTH AND TO AS MANY SCHOOLS AS YOU CAN STAND. I do not believe it will harm you and only a few die hard OMM herbs will be offended when you tell them.

 

[PTjay]

I have not applied yet but I will be applying to both. I must admit I enjoy the philosophy of DO better, I'm a PT student so I would enjoy manipulation in practice, but the one thing keeping me back is that I really want to be an Orthopod. I know it's possible as a DO but from what I've seen the MD route may be easier to achieve this. My PCP is a DO and I'd be just as proud of a DO title as an MD.

 

[Kadyra]

Well, I think you can be committed to the philosophies of both. I think the idea of OMM is great, and I would hope to use it in my practice if I graduate from DO school. However, I won't cry about not learning it if I go to MD school. I just want to be a doctor. I don't think that is a betrayal of osteopathy. I was honest at my DO interviews about this, and got into all the schools I applied to (AZCOM, UHS, and KCOM). I think adcoms are sympathetic to this. They know it is important to us to become physicians, and that the route isn't that important to many of us. They are just interested in producing good doctors, just like MD schools are.

 

[jhug]

my two cents is that it is damaging to our profession (DO) to harp on the differences and start telling others they are not being faithful to the philosophy! I imagine that when a person shows up to be treated for a condition- the most important issue/philosophy is that we do all we can to accomplish what that patient needs. I applied to both DO/MD and frankly couldn't care less which acronyms follow my name-- my philosophy is to be as open minded and teachable as possible for the good of my patients!!

 

[dude7]

thank you jhug. very well stated. I don't care which intials follow my name provided that I do not care. And simply I do not care. So to the original poster questiong why that person applied to MD and DO schools. I hope these posts have answered your question.

 

[TheSouth]

I applied to both MD and DO programs, but after I toured the DO school, researched the school's philosophy which was bent on Family Medicine(what I wanted to do), and talked to some faculty, I withdrew my MD apps and just kept my one DO app. Good thing I was accepted. : )

 

[John DO]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Ben01:
[/qb]••••Applying to both doesn't say much in terms of commitment to either philosophy. Someone who does this most likely doesn't REALLY want to be a DO.[/QB][/QUOTE]

That is quite a slanted view! What about those of us who applied to both but really didn't want to be an MD? I had to have a backup!!

To assume that most didn't really want to be a D.O. implies that we are somehow inferior . . .

 

[none]

The important thing to have is a dedication to medicine, not a dedication to osteopathy or allopathy!

 

[OldManDave]

•••quote:•••Why would you do that? MD and DO schools have inherently different philosophies (granted it doesn't matter so much these days in terms of practical application but still...). Applying to both doesn't say much in terms of commitment to either philosophy. Someone who does this most likely doesn't REALLY want to be a DO.••••Ben01;

I am certain that it was entirely unintentional and you definitely have a right to your opinion, but the intimation of your last line could easily be misconstrued as attacking. As innocently as you have phrased your statement, pre-DOs and DO students here an endless and pointless debate over whether or not they REALLY wanted to be DOs or were just settling for a DO degree. As tender as this topic can be for folks, may I suggest that you be more delicate in how you phrase things in the future -- this will avert the potential backlash of angry replies and make it far easier for you to get answers/opinions on the legitimate questions you have asked.

Just my $0.02...

Oh, and I also applied to both program types and not because I feared not getting into one program type or the other. I chose to do so and was far more concerned with selecting a program where I would be comfortable vs opting for a program by sweating which pair of initials would live behind my illegible signature.

Believe it or not, MDs & DOs are actually both members of the SAME profession. We are physicians...we work very very hard to provide the best care that we able to provide to our patients. That, my friend, is the bottom line and far outweighs the importance of some silly initials.

 

[Ben01]

Well, Dave, I simply don't feel like my question or comments were out of line and therefore I don't feel the need to aplogize or rephrase. But anyway that's not really important. I need to straighten some things out. First, I have complete respect for DOs and their respective educations. I never said anything derogatory about DOs and I certainly wasn't attacking them. The knee-jerk reaction against my statement is a testament to the insercurity of many DOs and DO students. I was merely highlighting the conflict in applying to both MD and DO schools but, of course, it has turned into a MD vs DO argument and an opportunity for DO students to tell everyone how they're just as good as MDs (what you all don't seem to grasp is that the more you do this the more people see you as "not as good as MDs" - b/c you seem desperate) . Bottomline is this: There ARE differences between the MD and DO philosophies. Granted when out in the "real world" the differences don't mean much but they do exist. Isn't it funny how DOs/DO students are quick to say how they are just as good as MDs and there are no differences but then they go on to highlight the differences and offer reasons why they are actually "better" (OMM, holistic medical approach etc etc)! The DO profession has some type of weird split personality. If there were no differences then there wouldn't be two types of medical degrees- there would just be 1. Now, on to some specific things you said in your post.

•••quote:•••Oh, and I also applied to both program types and not because I feared not getting into one program type or the other. I chose to do so and was far more concerned with selecting a program where I would be comfortable vs opting for a program by sweating which pair of initials would live behind my illegible signature. ••••Let's be frank here - there are 125 MD medical schools(or something near that)in the US but there are only, what, 16 DO schools? You're going to sit there and tell me that you had no preference for MD or DO but you couldn't find a suitable MD program anywhere in the US. However, you found the "right" program from the 16 DO schools? If the DO schools were the only schools that seemed "right" to you then that means you simply have a preference for their philosophy and you should have only applied to DO schools. However, there's an easy way to know the truth: How many MD acceptances did you turn down?

•••quote:•••Believe it or not, MDs & DOs are actually both members of the SAME profession. ••••Dave, this is a smartass comment. Of course I know MDs & DOs are part of the same profession and I haven't made any comments to lead you to believe otherwise. If you want people to respond with respect to your posts/opinions then please offer the same respect. I shouldn't have to be saying this seeing as you're an "Administrator".

 

[Atlas]

I think our friend Ben is looking into the wrong field. With his argumentative approach to communication, maybe law is his calling and not medicine. Eventhough I don't know him, I think he should look into it. There's no room for fighting in medicine.

Peace

 

[med student]

•••quote:••• Applying to both doesn't say much in terms of commitment to either philosophy. Someone who does this most likely doesn't REALLY want to be a DO. ••••Fact of the matter is that I suspect that a majority of people going to DO schools are going there for a reason other than the philosophy of the DO profession. I suspct that most people who choose a DO school made the descion in the same way that people going to MD schools choose a school ie they liked the school, the location it is in, happiness of students, what kind of residencies the class gets etc. Philosophy of the school was probobly pretty far down on the list. Now of course this is not true for everyone but most people don't give a crap about a given philosophy of a school if it is their only choice.

 

[bobo]

I chose DO school b/c I didn't get in any MD schools and I wanted to be a physician, letters be damned. I chose my particular school because I liked it better than the other schools I was accepted at.

The DO/MD argument will live in perpetuity on these discussion boards. Personally, I could give two craps about it. Trigger-happy DO's getting defensive at the drop of a dime tend to perpetuate the argument by acting as if there is something to prove. Here's an idea: quit worrying about this petty crap and prove yourself on the boards or in the wards or get a good residency.

BTW, I think the whole philosophy thing is a bunch of garbage. It's up to the individual.

DO philosophy is WAY overblown. After hearing a presentation on it, a relative of mine said "hmm, it all sounds like common sense to me". Holy Aschoff bodies Batman - structure and function are related? Wow! What a revealation. Treat the whole person? Treat the disease, not the symptom? Not exactly new or unique medical theories folks. No I am not bashing DO's cuz I will be one soon, but we can't decide what we want to be - equal or better than MD's. The debate rages on.

 

[wernicke]

Bobo,

pretty good comments....i also think this DO philosophy is way overblown. Way too much preaching at our school..just use your common sense. i would like to visit the MD schools out there that preach, "treat the symptom, not the person."

 

[justin417]

What's wrong with preaching a certain philosophy on patient care? Sure, it may be common sense but what harm is there in drilling common sense into the heads of future physicians? Personally, I realize that most MD schools have adopted similar philosophies as have the DO schools, but lets not forget who was first. Just because they all seem similar now does not mean that DO schools should retire time honored traditions. And DO's do have something unique, a philosophy and OMM. Don't for one instance tell me that the philosophical driven DO curriculum has no bearing on education and further career skills, I don't buy it. Simply stated, tell someone something long enough and they will start to embrace and accept it. Now, I have no problem with an individual applying to both types of schools, we should all cooperate and get along, we will all be future colleagues. Furthermore, the main goal is to become a great doctor regardless of the initials behind your name, but do not discount the distinct DO philosophy. And, lets not forget the importance of OMM, more DO's need to practice these techniques. Lastly, my friend, Old man Dave, made some valid points which should be taken in. So swallow your pride and listen to wisdom.

 

[OldManDave]

Ben01,

My friend, first of all...I am not in the least insecure in 'how & why' I took the path that I have taken. Frankly, your reply smacks of immaturity and a very real lack of real-world experience. If you're seeking to engage me in a dual of words or heated debate...you are barking up the wrong tree. You see, if you really READ what I posted, I was providing you with suggestions to change your tactics so that you could get better quality answers [read that as less defensive/less attacking] to the legitimate questions you posed orginally. However, you have chosen to attack me in return, when I was trying to help you get some answers to your questions.

Maybe you need to be a little less judgemental towards those who respond to your queries, esp those who are trying to assist you. I never commented nor even remotely suggested that you owed anyone an apology -- you have a right and a legit need to ask questions regarding DO & MDs, in respect to making a choice b/t the two educational paradigms. A little bit of open-mindedness, honest introspection and less arrogance would go a long way in ridding the pre-med community of this silly-assed, unfounded debate over MD v DO.

If you have ever even read much that I have posted on SDN, you would realize that I have claimed time & time again that the overreacting and defensive posturing of DOs/DO student and especially the AOA yield exactly what you claim -- insecurity. Of course, those reactions, in the student & pre-med population, are strongly fostered by the relative immaturity of those who elect to engage in a debate over the specifics of a profession which they have neither experienced nor participated in...pretty funny in my opinon. I would liken this to two dogs arguing over the finer points of being a cat...neither of them have "been there" sufficiently to have any foundation to argue which perspective is best.

All in all, the "differences" in the philosophies are small and serve more as food for debate than are actual, tangible differences in practice, which is the substance of my 'MDs & DOs are elements of the same profession comment' -- that was not and is not a smart-assed comment. It is simply the truth. Once you are more on the inside, you will learn this to be a far more accurate picture than what is painted by dualing pre-meds pissing & moaning over drival, trivia and inconsequential points regarding MD & DO.

 

[souljah1]

OldmanDave.

I agree my friend. I won't go into any treatise on why I think Mr.Ben has repressed anger or anything like that, but I will say that his logic is flawed and overtly dualistic. I did not read your comment (DOs and MDs both physicians) to be "smart-ass" in nature, but rather an attempt to bring him back into balance. In my opinion, good medicine is found in all medicine, and likening DOs and MDs to republicans and democrats is sophomoric. Oldman take a look at my life, I'm a lot like you.

A future MD who might want to also learn some DO philosophy as well as some other things. Life is too short to categorize yourself mr.ben.

 

[Ben01]

LOL! you people crack me up. Read through my posts and you will see that I have never said anything bad about DOs -- if anything I have been defending it as a legit medical degree/profession etc. For the 10th time: I have complete respect for DOs and their profession. I certainly have no "repressed anger"' about DOs/DO education. I'm not a DO or DO student and most likely never will be. If anyone has anger about the subject it's all of you who got SOOOO upset about my simple question. My point is this: While it is certainly pragmatic to apply to both MD and DO schools so the chances of getting into med school are increased I simply think that is the wrong reason to do it. This is MY opinion (and the opinion of most DO schools --call them up and ask). Of course, you all have the right to your own opinion and I respect that. I was merely trying to express some oppossing viewpoints on this forum. It's amazing how resistant this forum is to ideas that don't flow with the majority opinion. Have a good day and good luck with your careers.

ps.

•••quote:•••but I will say that his logic is flawed and overtly dualistic. ••••Souljah -- a little advice. don't make specific accusations/attacks unless you are going to explain/defend them. I welcome any "treatise" on my obviously flawed logic. Oh and as far as the democratic republican analogy - yes I know that is simplistic. I knew that when I made the comment but the point of it was just to get people thinking.

 

[souljah1]

Ben,

The flawed logic was, in my opinion, your statement about a person who applies to both really isn't serious about being a DO. I just think that is incorrect. I think many of the people who apply to both are more concerned about fulfilling their dreams to become physicians, than they are about becoming a DO or an MD. Of course there are exceptions to that statement, and I think those individuals are the ones that perpetuate that 'two party system' philosophy. Someone posted above that in the real world there are very few differences between DOs adn MDs, but there are major differences between Reps and Dems. I am more in the group that is more interested in becoming a physician to benefit the needs of my patients. I'm less concerned about touting some medical philosophy. In fact if I have any medical philosophy at all, it is one of complementarity. I like aspects of all sorts of practices. chiropractic, manipulation, ayurveda, chinese medicine, allopathic medicine, etc.. Likening DOs and MDs to a two party system just rang sour to me and most likely lead to my response before. In the end, DOs and MDs wind up practicing quite similarly (most of them anyway). I agree with some of the things you have said and I don't think you are attempting to offend anyone interested in going the osteo route or the allo route. I was more in disagreement with the duality of some of your comments.

I'm not applying to osteopathic schools so I wasn't one of those people who 'defend' the philosophy, but I do think that much of the osteopathic philosophy is wonderful and useful. Anyway, my apologies if I offended you in any way.

and good luck to everyone, regardless of the road you choose.

 

[Ben01]

ok Dave, I think we have gotten off on the wrong foot here. If you go over everything you just said you will realize that we agree on most points. I agree (as I have stated before) that arguing over the differences between MD and DO serves no purpose as the differences in the "real world" are so slight. I have never said anything to the contrary. Again, I completely respect DOs and their profession. The point through all these posts is this: I understand that people apply to both schools to better their chances of getting into med school, however I don't think that's a good reason to do it. When someone does that they often have a preference for MD schools and then when they don't get into any MD schools they "settle" for the DO school. I don't think people should "settle" for DOs - it's degrading to the school and the profession. DOs schools should command as much respect as MD schools. People who go to DO should really want to go there not only for reasons like quality of education,location etc but also becasue of the DO philosophy. Bottomline: I feel like a lot of people go to DO schools simply because they didn't get into MD schools and I don't think that is a good reason. I realize a lot of people have opposing views and of course that is your right. However, I do take exception to the the fact that my ideas were labeled as immature. I raised many valid points (whether you all want to admit it or not) and, if anything, the responses I received on this forum were often immature (this is not directed at Dave or anyone else is particular). Hopefully this clears some stuff up as we all seem to be little confused about what the other is saying. Hopefully this will get us all back on track. Have a good day.

Ben

 

[med student]

•••quote:••• I don't think people should "settle" for DOs - it's degrading to the school and the profession. ••••So what would you say if someone applied to 20 MD schools and the only school they got into was their last choice school that they would of preferred to not go to. I think it would be idiotic to skip up an oppurtunity to go to med school just because you didn't get into you first choice school. I mean hell I didn't get into harvard but I was willing to settle for another good school that I got into and you know what I think it was the right descion because in the long run I will achieve my overall goal of becoming a doctor. I think it is the same thing for many people who apply to DO schools because while DO schools may not be their first choice they will be very happy to go in the long run because just like myself all they want to do is become a doctor and the path to doing this is not important.

 

[OldManDave]

Ben01,

You are correct in that we do agree on a large portion of what has been said...although I still do not understand while you felt "attacked" by either of my replies or that I was being "defensive" in any manner. I do not see how you could get that from either of my posts...but that is a moot point & frankly is of no concern to me. I would appreciate it if you would go back and reread both of my posts to discern the true spirit of my replies.

I wish to proffer an alternate perspective on one of your claims/opinions. One that I do disagree with:

•••quote:•••I understand that people apply to both schools to better their chances of getting into med school, however I don't think that's a good reason to do it. When someone does that they often have a preference for MD schools and then when they don't get into any MD schools they "settle" for the DO school. I don't think people should "settle" for DOs - it's degrading to the school and the profession. DOs schools should command as much respect as MD schools. People who go to DO should really want to go there not only for reasons like quality of education,location etc but also becasue of the DO philosophy. Bottomline: I feel like a lot of people go to DO schools simply because they didn't get into MD schools and I don't think that is a good reason.••••Honestly, prior to attending a DO school I would have most likely completely agreed with your above statement. But, after having gone to one and interacted extensively through SOMA with students from the other schools, I feel that your basal assumption of most folks only applying to DO schools as a back up in case they can't/don't make the MD school cut is flawed. Very few of my classmates, and it was extensively discussed, felt that they were at KCOM as a back up -- certainly, there were a few, but not nearly the number you would expect to have encountered if you accept your assertion to be true.

Furthermore, if you break down the "numbers", as so many pre-meds are obscessed with doing, KCOM numbers are very much in line with the average MD school numbers. My class', the class of 2003, entry stats were approx meanGPA 3.6, mean MCAT 29 with high-8.x/low-9.x for average section scores. Those stats were provided to me during one of my KCOM Alumni Board of Directors meetings; so I don't know if you could verify them anywhere -- you'll just have to take my word for it.

So, even though DO school numbers/averages do fall significantly below mean MD school numbers, as is the definition of average, half the schools are above and half below. KCOM happens to have a history of solid numbers that are generally on par, if not exceeding those posted by the average entering class of MD students.

Now, before you interpret the above or below info as being "defensive", that is not my point nor my intent. The message is that even though there is a number, albeit in my experience it is a rather small number, of DO students who used DO as a backup, the preponderance of students attending many of the DO schools would have been competitive applying any of the medical schools, both DO & MD. And, that numbers are not good predictors of the quality or success of the individual as a medical student or as a physician.

As a general rule, it is the old timers, like myself, who drastically bring down the averages, esp at DO schools -- cause they tend to accept more of us than do most MD schools. Usually we're battling bad grades from the old days and/or shaky MCATS. Hell, I KNOW I dropped my class' entering meanGPA! My cumGPA was a 2.6! I had to drop out of college in '87 to avoid academic expulsion for a cumGPA of ~1.25 for 93 hours. You could go back to school and make straight 'A's until the cows come home and still not have too spiffy of a GPA when you start that deep in a hole. I graduated from UTDallas, after doing a complete BS, magna cum laude, ~3.87 and still only had a 2.6 cumGPA.

Numbers, while important in gauging performance and level of understanding, don't mean everything. Even with these ****ty numbers, you can't predict that I, or anyone in similar circumstances, will barely pass, flunk out or only amount to a marginal physician. I did very well in medical school -- qualified for the honor society -- and am doing even better in my clerkships -- have Honored the entire 3rd year so far.

This reply is not for me to waste my time and yours while I toot my own horn. What I desire is for you and others to learn to look/think outside of the box. Everything is not always exactly the way it is presented to you. Most traditional pre-meds have it engrained into them by our edicational system that GPA & MCAT scores are the core of everything and will predict how good a Doc they will become...that simply is not always true. MCAT & GPAs do predict, in a so-so manner, whether or not you will pass med school and your board exams. Becomeing an excellent physician requires far far more than passing a bunch of courses and 3 big-@$$ed, high-pressure exams.

I feel that a more correct interpretation lies in what was posted above -- the drive/desire to become a physician predominates over any predilection for a certain set of initials. Like I said, that was the case for me...and was the case for the majority of my classmates with whom I discussed this topic. And, there were a lot of them who only applied DO for philosophic and personal reasons.

I hope this clarifies some things, and more importantly, stimulates you and others to think more openly about the people who are training to become your colleagues in both DO & MD institutions. All in all, they're a wonderful group of people with an amazing array of skills and experiences to benefit from for only the trouble of asking.

:wink:

 

[lala1979]

hey there
that was really nice Dave.
And also people, I am proof here, I only plan on applying to DO schools, and one in particular bc that is where I want to go!

 

[Hedwig]

I second the above poster.

I have MD-quality stats, but I'm only applying to DO school. Why should it matter TO ME if the average MCAT scores amongst my classmates are lower than they would be somewhere else? Do the stats of my classmates mean that I'M not as intelligent as an MD student at Stanford or Harvard? All that matters is that I want to be a DO, not an MD, and I don't give a damn whether or not the person sitting next to me in lecture or lab is only there as an MD reject or someone who chose DO over MD. I'm not doing this for anyone else but me. I know that an osteopathic medical school will make me exactly the kind of physician I want to be. If going this route means having to explain what "DO" means, having to prove myself to the allopathic establishment, or having to be looked down upon by ignorant pre-meds, so be it. Nobody has to live my life but me. All that matters to me is what my patients will think of me.

In the end, MDs and DOs learn the same medicine, though the DOs get some bonus knowledge along the way--knowledge I want to have. And on a more subjective level, the DOs I've been exposed to are a heck of a lot more fun to be around than the MDs. (I know, I know, "Don't generalize," yada yada yada.) I really want to be a part of it, and I'm confident enough in my accomplishments and my abilities not to care what anyone else has to say about it. I intend to go DO, kick some more academic butt, get the specialty I want, and be exactly the kind of physician I've always dreamed I would be. To hell with detractors.

Be proud!

- Stephanie

 

[jhug]

steph-- a breath of fresh air!!!!
Do it!! I feel exactly as you do, but i will warn you that our attitude makes us unpopular among some of the "victims" that have posted here.

 

[Atlas]

Steph,

You go girl!!!

<img border="0" alt="[Lovey]" title="" src="graemlins/lovey.gif" />

Atlas

 

[lala1979]

hEY THERE
That is EXACTLY what I was trying to say!
While my stats are not absolutley perfect, I currently have a 3.45 GPA, and am trying to grad. with a 3.5 to earn magna cum laude, I am sure that my stats, no I am positive my stats are better than some people applying to MD schools. I currently have a friend and peer who has not even taken half of the sciences I have, or has the grades as me, and is ONLY applying to MD schools. While I have not yet taken the MCAT, even if I were to get a 40 I would apply to the school I am hoping to gain acceptance to, which is a DO school. I also have many extra activities, including health care experience-I am a nursing major, clinical experience, and school experience on a varsity sport. I have nothing against MD applicants, and find some MD's very nice(like the one who I was in surgery with) But I just think some of them need to realize that they are not superior to people just because they are attending, or would like to attend a DO school. I actually look forward to tell MD students about my own academics. And actually one of the main reasons I want to go to a DO school is because of the factors they use in selecting applicants, I find them a more accurate predictor of a good, compassionate physician. I REALLY don't like the way a lot of MD schools just screen for mere numbers, even though I KNOW I PERSONALLY would be a contender.
Good luck all, I have a sorority meeting to go to now And then off to studying.

 

[bobo]

The DO/MD battle rages on......

Hedwig, settle down for goodness sakes. You don't want to become a "DO nazi".

It is quite silly to say that one should not apply to both DO and MD schools at the same time, because of the differing so-called philosophies. Most of us just want to be physicians.

I would venture to say that many students in DO schools did not get into MD programs. Of course there are exceptions - DO diehards, those limited by geographical constraints, DO-only families, personal connections, etc. This is not a bad thing, just an observation. Why everybody reads the riot act when they hear this is ridiculous.

Posters like OMD went to the school that they liked best of everywhere they were accepted. "Usually" if a person is accepted at both they will choose MD. There are exceptions, I know a handful. Face the facts: state schools are less expensive and have better clinicals because they are often associated with an academic medical center amongst other reasons. That isn't the point here - which is better. Med school admissions is a crapshoot and the goal is to maximize your chances of acceptance. You make the best of the dice roll you are given.

 

[Hedwig]

bobo,

What the hell is your problem? This is a PRE-OSTEOPATHIC forum. Ergo, I am entitled to post my opinions however I see fit. If being proud of my future profession and defending it against detractors with ludicrous arguments (and no self-esteem) makes me a so-called "DO nazi" (it's Nazi, by the way--proper noun), then so be it.

All I wrote was that it shouldn't matter to anyone if your medical school--MD or DO or MBBCh--accepts students with lower MCAT scores or farm animals or transvestites or anyone or anything else. My point was that the only thing that should matter is the way YOU feel about yourself and your school, not the stats of your class. Clearly you fail to comprehend this. You mention nothing of my actual argument and put words in my mouth (or, on my keyboard, as the case may be) to serve your own ends.

Read above. Clearly I'm not the only one who shares my views. So why, pray tell, do *I* have to shoulder the brunt of your insecurities?

You're a child, Bobo.

 

[PACmatthew]

I really do not like many of the subtle remarks that Mr. Ben has made. He disguised some of them quite well, but his stripes were still ever so present through the camoflauge. He has issues with DO's because he is not educated or "life experienced". For your info Ben, I was accepted to one MD program, and one DO program. I am a PA who has two supervising physicians, one a DO, and one an MD. I applied to both schools because I honestly wanted to be able to see both programs up close and personal. The interview day at both schools gave me the opportunity to really see the difference between them. Mr. Ben, please pardon those of us who do not have our life goals mapped out on our forehead when we come through the birth canal. Keeping one's options open makes the most sense, and thus this is the reason most people apply to both DO and MD schools. Though there is some difference among the training, it is not like one career is that much different from the other. Now it might be right to criticize one for applying to medical school as well as chiropractic school, because those are two way-different professions. When I went for my interview, I was amazed by the kindness and patience exhibited by the staff and physicians at the DO school. And in my experience as a PA, I have found very few DO's to be abrasive, condescending, or "know it alls". Of the physicians that exhibit those traits, and luckily there are very few, they are usually extremely smart MD's who aced medicine but flunked "people skills for docs 101". DO's by and large are more life experienced, and well rounded, and I can tell you that most of the DO's I know went to DO school by choice. So if you are looking for that token DO student who actually did turn down the MD route voluntarily, I am proof that they exist.

 

[bobo]

Last I checked, users could post in any forum?.

Hmm, I am ?a child?. This is coming from someone asks me ?What the hell is your problem??

Hedwig, calm down. Nobody is putting you or DO?s down or attacking you. My initial comment of ?settle down for goodness sakes. You don't want to become a "DO nazi". was directed to you because you get really defensive in your posts. The rest was generalized observations as a DO student who applied to MD and DO schools and is perfectly happy with my DO school choice. I didn?t put words in your mouth, I simply stated my opinion.

I guess you know a lot about me, particularly the fact that I have no self-esteem. Interesting.

This comment I will direct at you: while you may not see it ? when you so vociferously defend the DO profession and jump to it?s defense you are exposing your own securities and perpetuating the whole stupid DO/MD argument. All this from a pre-med, no less ? who doesn?t know JACK **** about how medical school really is.

 

[jhug]

bobo-- como dice tu nombre-- por favor, no hablas! No tienes nada que decir! Si estas buscando una pelea- buscala con alguien que no es mas inteligente que tu! Sacas la cabeza, pongate las pilas, y callate.

 

[Mr. MD or DO]

I'm also one of those people who only applied to DO schools. I've read many books about the history of medicine. Before any dispute or quarrel, I think it's important to see through our discussion in a more broad perspective. Medicine, as we know is not in an immutable state, nor any other areas of study. There's no ultimate truth not withstanding any change by nature. Long ago, people used to draw blood out or even punctured into our brain to cure mental/physical diseases. They were perfectly justified and accepted because they were some successful cases otherwise untreated and worsened if left alone. There were also the "breave souls" who ventured into digging graves to study the human body which was illegal back then to delve into study with real human body. The result was revolutionary, proving all the medical text books and all the miseducated professors wrong. There are much more unmentioned examples but my bottom line is who are we to judge which one is better/real/superior approach to medicine (MD/DO/Etc...). We should always remember that medicine is going through so much and very rapid changes. Personally I think going DO is more future oriented, in terms of its ideology. DO is more recent, revolutionary and better suited for today and future needs in medical care. As we deal more with psychological/emotional factors into diseases, then DO becomes the next phase in medicine, where MD represents the traditional medicine which worked and will still work but a bit out-dated concerning its approach to medicine. Well, If I really wanted to go the path much more traveled, then I would go MD, whether US or forign MD's. I think 3.6gpa, 30Mcat,my rec's and extracurricular's would get me a MD degree somehow. But I chose DO because I like DO for what it is. You can justifiably say MDs are more common, more well known, well reserach funded, have easier time getting preferred residencies, and you know what those facts motivate me even more. I started my life weak. I always preferred the underdog, the unlikely, against all odds, in this way, I gain more. Through more sufferings and difficulties in life, I find more opportunities to improve myself and find the true contentment that can only found by overcoming the hardship. "To live is to suffer and to survive is to find a meaning in the suffer" My beginning will seem humble, so prosperous my future be (according to Job 8:7).

SUNY at Binghamton 2001
UMDNJ-SOM 2006

 

[Hedwig]

Bobo,

Nice language--how colorful!

Listen, I have to respectfully disagree. When a DO-hopeful gets defensive about DO school it's because he/she has an inferiority complex? I fail to see the logic, particularly since nobody ever accuses an MD-hopeful of having an inferiority complex if he/she gets defensive about allopathic school. Why is that?

I have no reason to have an inferiority complexm nor do any of the other posters who believe in osteopathy and don't want to go to MD school. I have a 3.97 cum, a B.A. in a nonscience field, I've been published, was editor of my college paper as an undergrad, and on and on and on. What do I have to prove? I think you really missed the point of my original post: quite simply, there are no inferiority complexes warranted if being a DO (or an MD or a podiatrist or a fry cook)is what you truly want to do with your life. Why should anything else matter? Now, for someone like you who I'm assuming couldn't get into allopathic school and found osteopathy sort of by default (is this the case?), it's a different story altogether, but I didn't address that.

Please, by the way, stop implying that I'm completely ignorant when it comes to medical education, which you seem to delight in. In reality, I'm rather well-versed when it comes to osteopathic medical education. Aside from the fact that I've worked at osteopathic medical schools, my family co-founded (!) one of the schools in the 70s, and my father is now a senior administrator at his second, as well as an administrator at the AOA and AACOM. [Remove foot from mouth here.] In short, I've grown up with osteopathic medical education, and know far more about its ins and outs (and politics and financing and future challenges, etc.) than any given DO student--yourself included. Do feel free to send me a message if you'd like to know more. I'd be happy to talk with you about this. I'd also like to hear the reasons why DO isn't/wasn't your first choice to begin with. I would like to hear about the challenges you've had as an osteopathic student, if you're willing to share them.

Truce?

- Stephanie

 

[titan]

Mr. DO or MD,

Excellent post. Just wanted you to know that I completely echo your sentiments. I'm not sure I could have put it any better myself. Good luck to you!

titan
AZCOM 2006

 

[PimplePopperMD]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by PACmatthew:
[QB]. When I went for my interview, I was amazed by the kindness and patience exhibited by the staff and physicians at the DO school. And in my experience as a PA, I have found very few DO's to be abrasive, condescending, or "know it alls". Of the physicians that exhibit those traits, and luckily there are very few, they are usually extremely smart MD's who aced medicine but flunked "people skills for docs 101". DO's by and large are more life experienced, and well rounded, and I can tell you that most of the DO's I know went to DO school by choice. QB]••••I am still tuned in to these discussions because I applied to both (and chose MD)...

The real world:

MD students have better training sites on the whole. We have more academic centers, more VA sites, more variety.

The DO-only sites are worse. However, many DO students train at the SAME sites as MD students. So you'll have to train with the "know it alls" as collegues and teachers.

The real world? MD opens up more doors. The philosophy is a joke. The "DO discrimination" is valid because one should discriminate, or differentiate, varying qualities of clinical sites. While many are shared, some of the sites that DOs end up at are downright lousy. Though the same can (and undoubtedly will) be said of MD students, it just isn't as pervasive.

Take it as you will. The DO collegues that I worked with at one of my clinical sites were treated THE SAME. They were JUST AS SMART. Take off the student patch, they were INDISTINGUISHABLE. The difference: They pay more $$, they have to take two sets of boards to keep their options open, and they have a lesser shot at decent residencies.

So if you have the choice, choose MD. And read a philosophy book of your choosing to supplement your MD education.

 

[mmpp]

I have been following this discussion also, as a soon to be DO student who applied to both allopathic and osteopathic schools (only allopathic 2 years ago, only osteopathic this year). I won't pretend to know a lot about medical school, that journey will begin soon enough for me. However, I would like to share my experiences as a previous applicant. In some eyes, I may be one of the ones who "settled" for DO because I didn't (not couldn't) get into a MD school. However, I don't feel I that I settled for anything and it is not a "back up" for me. My "premed" advisor and anatomy professor (a MD) never mentioned osteopathic medicine, nothing. I also attribute some of my earlier lack of knowledge about osetopathic due to my fixation (and many premeds) on MD. I should have explored my options more thoroughly and I encourage future applicants to do so. Don't limit yourself and don't fool yourself or let others fool you (especially other premeds who know little of what they're talking about) into thinking that there is only one way to become a good and respected doctor or that a solid GPA and MCAT will get you there. After completing multiple applications, 3 interviews, 3 wait-lists, and ultimately, rejections from allopathic schools, I was left feeling completely crappy, wondering where I had gone wrong. After all, my GPA and MCAT's were above the average for allopathic acceptances, and according to most "how to get into medical school" books I was a solid candidate, sure to be accepted to at least one school. The problem is that there are A LOT of solid candidates and not enough spots for all of them. But like Old Man Dave said, "numbers, while important in gauging performance and level of understanding, don't mean everything." Numbers also don't mean that you'll necessarily get what you want, when you want it. Seemingly unfair, but it turned out not to be a bad thing in my case.

So, to make a long story short, just before receiving my last rejection (we really need to think of a better word, ouch) I learned of osteopathic medicine after speaking with a friend's mom who is a RN. She encouraged me to look into it. Subsequently, I did a great deal of research&#8230;spoke with docs (MD and DO), students (MD and DO), others involved in healthcare, and just as important, talked to myself. I researched osteopathic medicine and explored my options thoroughly before applying to medical school a second time. I decided to apply only to osteopathic schools and I was quite successful and impressed by every school that interviewed me (in many regards, more impressed than by the allopathic schools). I was thrilled to actually be able to choose from several schools and can't wait to begin next fall. So you see, the path to just getting into medical school is a little different for everyone, not necessarily one better than another. As far as I'm concerned, no one is truly justified in saying, "a lot of people go to DO schools simply because they didn't get into MD schools and I don't think that is a good reason," or any other remark about the applying MD and/or DO being right or wrong, when you haven't even applied to medical school. Please don't knock others for their decisions and chosen paths, especially when you haven't gone through it.

Best of luck to everyone.

 

[OldManDave]

•••quote:•••MD students have better training sites on the whole. We have more academic centers, more VA sites, more variety.

The DO-only sites are worse. However, many DO students train at the SAME sites as MD students. So you'll have to train with the "know it alls" as collegues and teachers.

The real world? MD opens up more doors. The philosophy is a joke. The "DO discrimination" is valid because one should discriminate, or differentiate, varying qualities of clinical sites. While many are shared, some of the sites that DOs end up at are downright lousy. Though the same can (and undoubtedly will) be said of MD students, it just isn't as pervasive.••••PimplePopperMD;

Shouldn't you be a little further along or have more medical/professional experience before you make such braod, sweeping claims? I can tell that BOTH MD & DO granting institutions have strong, weak & all points in between training sites. Yes, you are correct that state-funded MD schools tend to be affiliated with larger [University & VA] training sites -- but, hate to pop your bubble (or pimple) ---&gt; larger does not equate to better.

I train, as an osteopathic MS-III, along with a group of MSU-CHM (that's the MD school) students. Nothing against them, they'll even admit to this, my classmates & I were definitely more well prepared, from a clinical medicine perspective, than they were...we were simply taught more and had seen more -- and, my classmate had minimal clinical experience prior to med school. That is not to say that my training colleagues are not very sharp, cause virtually everyone of them are very sharp and will make excellent physicians.

However, my classmate & I trained in Kirksville, MO...you can't get too much smaller or remote than K'ville for a med school. But, KCOM consistently produces knolwedgable excellent physicians year after year -- in a tiny town of 17k over 100 miles from the nearest interstate.

So, try to stop sounding like you're reading from a recruitment pamphlet and wait until you have real-life experiences to draw from before you go belittling another educational paradigm that has been validated time & time again as equal.

 

[PACmatthew]

The are a couple of reasons why I chose DO over MD. Being a PA, and having trained in the Houston medical center (UTH, Baylor Collge of Medicine), I have already been through the hard clinicals. I chose this time around to avoid the heirarchical system of medicine and instead to go through a program that would teach me more about primary care. Where I am going to go (TexasCOM), it is known that students get a great deal of one on one time with faculty physicians because there are very few residents. I agree, that if someone is desiring to be anything other than primary care, that they should seriously reconsider the DO route. There are DO's of all specialties, but by and large the DO is known for primary care medicine. As a PA, I practice family medicine, and that is where I will be headed for residency. So for the response that questioned the competitiveness for DO's in getting residency positions, I will not be too worried about it. Family Practice residencies everywhere have plenty of DO's. In Texas, the FP allopathic residencies have nearly as many DO's as MD's. FP residencies are not very competitive, and often go unfilled. I also was tired of treating every patient with back pain the same. NSAID, Muscle Relaxant, occassional narcotics, PT, and unnecessary lumbar spine x-rays that only result in the patient getting exposed to some other poor chap with pneumonia who is waiting for their chest x-ray. And for those of you headed for family or internal medicine, you will see that about 25% of all patients are there for musculoskeletal complaints. DO's have a distinct advantage in this respect, and thus this is a huge reason why I chose DO over MD. I would have chosen the MD profession if wanted to be an oncologist, interventional radiologist, cardiologist, or even an internist. I don't want to do these things though. There is and will always be a shortage of primary care docs because there are so many med students that see $$$'s elsewhere. It is true, an FP makes about 120 coming out of residency, and probably will never top 150 unless they own their own practice. 120K to do what you love though is a true blessing though that can't be described. FP docs live a special life because everyone knows them, relies on them, trusts them, and grows up seeing them. Specialists don't get this unique interaction, and are thus less enriched overall by the patient-provider relationship.

 

[PimplePopperMD]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by OldManDave:
[QBSo, try to stop sounding like you're reading from a recruitment pamphlet and wait until you have real-life experiences to draw from before you go belittling another educational paradigm that has been validated time & time again as equal.

[/QB]••••Damn. Guess those who disagree stand to sound like they are reading from a pamphlet?

Dave, I disagree with your view that, on the whole, the clinical exposure DO schools afford their students is equivalent (or even better) than those MD schools offer. ON THE WHOLE.

Good for you that you're getting a quality education. I'm glad to hear it. And I suspect that ALL DO students are also getting a quality education. I am stipulating that IN GENERAL there are differences.

But I guess I should put my pamphlet down. Dave has more real world experience than anybody else, because he says so.

 

[bobo]

Hedwig, I don't think my foot needs to be removed from my mouth. While you may have all the credentials in the world regarding the DO profession, you are still a pre-med that has not stepped foot in a medical school as a student. We were all there once. While you may be well-versed in many areas of the osteopathic profession several times in your posts you have displayed your ignorance of a number of subjects -GME, residencies, PCOM rotations and electives, etc. No matter. I point out these shortfalls because you pass them off as fact.

I applied to MD and DO schools and yes I had "MD-quality stats", but I didn't get in. DO was a backup, as it is for many who apply whether or not they admit it. Yes, I know a handful of folks apply to DO only for whatever reason. As a previous poster mentioned, I looked at it the same way as if I got in my last choice MD school (I only applied to 5 or so). I was just glad that I was gonna be a physician.

What gets me is how people are mysteriously converted to the "DO philosophy" when they find out about DO schools and they are not accepted to MD programs. It becomes more and more attractive somehow. People like OMD duck the issue of where they were accepted. Acceptance at DO school only results in the mysterious embracing of the "DO philosophy". More power to the people who apply DO only and are commited to it. I just get tired of hearing form the so-called converts.

I preferred MD because the price at several was 20K less than typical DO school. State MD schools provide a better track to residencies in your home state for many reasons, and this is what I want. I'll just have to work a little harder. It doesn't mean that MD is better than DO. MD is better than DO if you want a super competitive residency or high-powered research. DO is better if OMM is your thing or you know primary care is for you. I am perfectly happy to be a DO even the it is a pain in the ass to explain the whole DO thing to people again and again. Not that big of a deal. I will be as proud as anyone to be a DO.

 

[bobo]

On the whole I would say that MD clinical education is better than DO education. Of course there are exceptions, but what MD school ships there classes halfway across the US? DO schools don't pay their teachers either. This argument has been hashed out before many times. Clinical education is what you put into it.

OMD, I guess being a RRT taking orders from docs makes you an expert on "real-life". I got news for you - there are others out there with just as much and GASP! maybe even more past experience and responsibility than you. So don't act like you are the end-all know-all.

 

[lala1979]

hi again
I will say it again, I am a person ONLY applying to DO schools. NYCOM came to my university and did a presentation. I am a nursing major(BSN) and what they had to say really impressed me. I'm sure there are people who apply to both, and don't get in one or the other, but you don't need to say as a matter of fact everyone because I know I am not. I have taken every science under the sun, and have ample clinical experience. I am in family practice right now, but who knows maybe that will chance once(and if) I am in medical school. I keep hearing people say if you want to specialize don't go DO. While I am sure it is more difficult, there is a DO orthopedic surgeon where I live in a practice with MD's. I am from NY though, and it does not seem as big a difference here than other places.
My point is I am only applying DO, and only to schools I want to go to. I am sure I could go MD, and yes I'm sure there stats are a little higher than DO schools, but overall it appears DO's are much better rounded. I mean why would you want to accept an applicant who ONLY has the numbers and NO experience at all??? Just bc they think it will be cool to be a doctor and have never set foot next to a patient??? You see this is the main reason I AM PICKING DO! I am already in a heathcare field and this seems more logical to me!
Good luck to all both MD and DO

 

[Kadyra]

Why do people seem to think that MD students have no clinical experience prior to med school? This untrue. Clinical experience and extra-curricular activities are how these people with high score and "no other skills" as someone put it distinguish themselves from other applicants. As a matter of fact, when I applied last year, I was rejected from every school I applied to (all MD) because my average stats were not made any better by mediocre EC's and clinical experience (I know this because I called all the schools and asked). These things are extremely important to the allopathic admissions process. Don't kid yourself that they're not. And many allopathic schools now have clinical exposure via preceptors in the first two years-- not all do, but this is a trend they are following.

I really don't like this discussion. Some people have posted with maturity, and others have definitely not. Neither profession is superior to the other. Good and bad doctors come out of both disciplines. Most people say that your medical education is what you make of it. That is the important thing. If you prefer one philosophy over the other, great. If not, great. If you have a story about why you chose one over the other, wonderful! But can we please refrain from belittling each other? It really detracts from a well-thought out and wonderfully-put idea.