Didn't do great on Step I or II...now what?

[shahkg]

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So I just got my Step II scores in the mail today, was hoping for like a 230 since I tried to study a lot harder this time around. But to my disappointment, I only got a 205. Man, I don't know what to do now and am pretty depressed. My Step I was 197, obviously not fantastic either.

Do I still have any sort of shot at GS?? What are some programs that are on the lower-mid/lower tier? Oh, and I'm also a IMG...great 👍

Last question...should I apply to a prelim GS spot and hope for the match next year, would that be my best option? Or should I do some research first? This sucks donkey balls 😡

 

[Blade28]

Hmmm...if you're serious about doing a G Surg residency, I don't know if I would apply for a prelim spot instead of a categorical. That seems like a tough path to me; then again, you don't want to scramble. How many places are you thinking of applying to?

Besides your Step 1 and 2 scores, how are your grades? Any research, awards, honors, other activities?

 

[shahkg]

Hey man, I guess my best option right now is to try the "shotgun" approach in applying and apply to like 40 or something programs 😱 . I do have one paper from MSKCC which I hope will carry some weight, two summers of research experience, got A's and B's during my core's, and have two very good LOR's from a community hospital, with more on the way (hopefully from the chair of Head and Neck Surg at MSKCC).

Why do you say prelim is a tougher way to go? I know that I want GS, I don't want to apply for anything else. You have any advice as to where to apply?? Thanks for the help in advance.

K

 

[njbmd]

Hey man, I guess my best option right now is to try the "shotgun" approach in applying and apply to like 40 or something programs 😱 . I do have one paper from MSKCC which I hope will carry some weight, two summers of research experience, got A's and B's during my core's, and have two very good LOR's from a community hospital, with more on the way (hopefully from the chair of Head and Neck Surg at MSKCC).

Why do you say prelim is a tougher way to go? I know that I want GS, I don't want to apply for anything else. You have any advice as to where to apply?? Thanks for the help in advance.

K

Hi there,
Be sure to apply to some good solid community programs. Sure you might be a long-shot for an academic program but if you have a sincere desire to do General Surgery, you might want to consider some strong community programs. You should definitely apply to both categorical and preliminary slots.

Good luck!
njbmd 🙂

 

[shahkg]

Hey njbmd, thanks for the advice!! 😳

I just have one question which I still haven't figured out yet...what would be the difference between applying prelim or categorical?? Prelim just takes an extra year, no??

 

[Sensei_Sevo]

So I just got my Step II scores in the mail today, was hoping for like a 230 since I tried to study a lot harder this time around. But to my disappointment, I only got a 205. Man, I don't know what to do now and am pretty depressed. My Step I was 197, obviously not fantastic either.

Do I still have any sort of shot at GS?? What are some programs that are on the lower-mid/lower tier? Oh, and I'm also a IMG...great 👍

Last question...should I apply to a prelim GS spot and hope for the match next year, would that be my best option? Or should I do some research first? This sucks donkey balls 😡

Too bad dude..........might want to consider family practice, bud! 😎

 

[Pir8DeacDoc]

Really no need for that here. The guy is putting himself on the line for something he really wants to do. I can't figure the need to be an a**hole about it.

 

[Blade28]

Hey njbmd, thanks for the advice!! 😳

I just have one question which I still haven't figured out yet...what would be the difference between applying prelim or categorical?? Prelim just takes an extra year, no??

Well, no, not really. There's a good FAQ on this, I think (you can see it at the top of the forum).

But basically, prelim spots are usually for those doing an "internship"-type year before switching into their chosen fields...ophtho, rads, etc. These people can do a prelim year either in surgery or medicine, or alternatively, a transitional year.

Surgery programs across the country have a lot of first-year residents, since they're made up of prelims and categoricals. By the second year, only the categoricals are left (the prelims either went into their respective fields, or, if they excelled, they may either be offered a categorical spot...they can also apply for the Match again, IIRC).

It's a little confusing, I know. I'm sorry. 🙁

BTW, I'm neurotic, so I applied to a ton of GS programs (67, all categorical). 👍 So don't worry about the "shotgun" approach and applying to 40+ programs.

 

[medicinetiger]

Hey man, I guess my best option right now is to try the "shotgun" approach in applying and apply to like 40 or something programs 😱 . I do have one paper from MSKCC which I hope will carry some weight, two summers of research experience, got A's and B's during my core's, and have two very good LOR's from a community hospital, with more on the way (hopefully from the chair of Head and Neck Surg at MSKCC).

Why do you say prelim is a tougher way to go? I know that I want GS, I don't want to apply for anything else. You have any advice as to where to apply?? Thanks for the help in advance.

K

Listen, you got plenty of chance and even for obatining a categorical spot. But definetly a prelim. year is probably your best shot. If they like you enough wherever you end up at you may even be offered a cat. spot for the next year, w/out having to re-apply for the match. I am certain you will reach this goal--Gen. Surg. is competive allright, but nothing like the subspecialties (eg., Ortho, ENT, urology, etc.). You should defin. apply to both prel., and cat. to some of the more flexible hospitals. If you haven't already, you can check the Scutwork.com website to see which programs (mainly prelim.,) went unfilled this last match season.
We are in such a similar situation. I am also an IMG, my Step I wasn't the greatest. I have not taken Step II yet, but I am in a few more weeks, and have been studying really hard for it. I am aiming for the 220's or higher scores, but after hearing about your pers. experience w this exam, it is hard to tell how it wil go. Hopefully I will get lucky and do well. To make matters worse, I had some minor political issues during my Gen. Surg. core rotation, and the PD for med. students in the program gave me a "C" for a grade. I did learn my lesson though--never to argue not even w/ other students around any surg. ward. I know I will make sure that this does not happen to again--These people in the field of surgery can be so arrogant (Chief residents, and all surgeons in general--good or bad), and the least incident can set them on fire. They are also obsessive-compulsive about teaching you a lesson, by giving you a poor grade, they ensure to screw up your chances of success in your pursuit of a career in surg. med. However, I have done other electives in Gen. surgery, and have others on the way, and did rather well. I will not let this single bad experience determine the future of my career. Where there is a will there is a way.

MedTiger


Good luck,

PS: I have also benefited from the answers to your question.

 

[Blade28]

So I just got my Step II scores in the mail today, was hoping for like a 230 since I tried to study a lot harder this time around. But to my disappointment, I only got a 205. Man, I don't know what to do now and am pretty depressed. My Step I was 197, obviously not fantastic either.

Just out of curiosity, what were the two-digit scores for your Step 1 and 2 scores?

Regardless, I think if the rest of your application is strong, you should keep your head up and definitely continue to apply!

 

[VentdependenT]

So I just got my Step II scores in the mail today, was hoping for like a 230 since I tried to study a lot harder this time around. But to my disappointment, I only got a 205. Man, I don't know what to do now and am pretty depressed. My Step I was 197, obviously not fantastic either.

Do I still have any sort of shot at GS?? What are some programs that are on the lower-mid/lower tier? Oh, and I'm also a IMG...great 👍

Last question...should I apply to a prelim GS spot and hope for the match next year, would that be my best option? Or should I do some research first? This sucks donkey balls 😡

Apply to all the programs you can with your credit card. Cover yourself with tons of community programs.

 

[fireflyrxn]

Apply to all the programs you can with your credit card. Cover yourself with tons of community programs.

excellent advice. i think that's really the only option when you've scored low. as a friend of my said "you've got to be in it to win it" and you can't be "in it" unless you apply widely!

 

[shahkg]

Hey guys, thanks for all the advice, I am feeling better about the whole match process. I know that my scores are low, but I'm hoping my research experience and published paper will get me through the door. This forum has been so helpful to me in figuring out how to apply.

As to Sensai/Sensei/whatever the f*ck your name is...get a life dude. You probably live a sad enough life where you have to put someone you never met down, let alone someone who opted to post their board scores to the public.

Answering a previous question, my two digits were 80 and 83...guess I'll just have to ask for more money and start applying to every program known to man .

 

[Blade28]

Apply to all the programs you can with your credit card. Cover yourself with tons of community programs.

Excellent advice. 👍

 

[Celiac Plexus]

So I just got my Step II scores in the mail today, was hoping for like a 230 since I tried to study a lot harder this time around. But to my disappointment, I only got a 205. Man, I don't know what to do now and am pretty depressed. My Step I was 197, obviously not fantastic either.

Do I still have any sort of shot at GS?? What are some programs that are on the lower-mid/lower tier? Oh, and I'm also a IMG...great 👍

Last question...should I apply to a prelim GS spot and hope for the match next year, would that be my best option? Or should I do some research first? This sucks donkey balls 😡

First, congratulations on all that you have accomplished so far.

Second, I agree that you should apply to a lot of places. Don't be penny-wise and skimp on a few hundred dollars in application fees at this point in your career. I know a guy with less than stellar stats who really wanted ortho... he applied to every ortho program in the country... and matched.

Also, it sounds like you have some burn with some prestigious surgeons at sloan kettering. You should try to coopt one of them into an unofficial advisor. If they really like you, they might make some calls on your behalf. Keep your "advisor" posted on your progress during the match. Try to involve him/her as much as possible in your application process. A well-known academic surgeon has many friends... You may have to rely on his/her connections to get a job for next year.

As far as the prelim spot... it's dicey. It's better than nothing, and it MAY lead to being offerred a cat spot at the place where you are interning. On the other hand, with a prelim spot, there are absolutely no guarantees. We have a few "non-designated" prelim interns at my program who are trying to catch on here as categoricals. One of the guys is really good, but he is probably not going to get a spot since we are maxed out on categoricals right now. He is currently going through ERAS again. And the stats for matching are best for US seniors... I would try everything to get a categorical spot now.

Ultimately, I think that if you are really dedicated, and are willing to potentially take a slightly longer road to get there... I believe that you will get a spot somewhere. Best of luck!

 

[shahkg]

Hey Celiac Plexus,

Thanks for all the advice...I think that I will first test the waters for a categorical spot and see how that goes. As for the MSKCC people, yes I have been trying to get in touch with them so that maybe they may put in a good word for me. Thanks for all the help from everyone, it is much appreciated!!

 

[tecoboy]

You have a long road ahead of you shahkg.

I was in your shoes last year, but, with an excellent step 1 score (230's).

My advice, give it a shot..... maybe this year surgery will be down.

If you decide to go the prelim route...... I would suggest you investigate which programs have a history of granting categorical spots to prelims after a year. There is a strong possibility that you may get stuck in the prelim "black hole" and work as a prelim slave for 2 or 3 years and never get categorical. I personally know of several people who have experienced this.

It's just the way things are right now........plenty of US grads want surgery and are flooding the applications and interviews to the point that the programs dont need to "settle" for IMGs.

 

[tecoboy]

By the way, last year I applied to 73 programs (mostly community) and got 7 community interviews and 2 university interviews.

Did not match
Did not scramble
Still unemployed.

 

[shahkg]

Hey tecoboy, how is it possible that you didn't match even though you did well on Step I? I know people that got lower scores and matched into surgery...now I'm getting nervous again 😕

 

[fourthyear]

I don't believe tecoboy. Applying to that many programs with that good a step 1 score - even as an IMG seems like you should have gotten more interviews at least with a step 1 of 230's. There's got to be more to the story if this is true. Failed a few classes, took a few extra years to finish school, something more.

And I can't understand why techoboy claims to be "still unemployed". If you are eligable for a US medical licsence, why would you not at least fill some spot just to have a job - even if it was not prelim surgery, why not a medicine spot or a research job or something? That makes no sense why you would choose to do nothing when there are jobs out there for you. Doing nothing with your year will certainly not help your application next time around. How are you ever going to pay back loans if you don't take a job soon? Not matching categorical surgery the first time around does not mean you have to go without a job!

Don't worry, shahkg, about this story he gives - you can't beleive everything you read on these boards.

 

[Denial]

So I just got my Step II scores in the mail today, was hoping for like a 230 since I tried to study a lot harder this time around. But to my disappointment, I only got a 205. Man, I don't know what to do now and am pretty depressed. My Step I was 197, obviously not fantastic either.

Do I still have any sort of shot at GS?? What are some programs that are on the lower-mid/lower tier? Oh, and I'm also a IMG...great 👍

Last question...should I apply to a prelim GS spot and hope for the match next year, would that be my best option? Or should I do some research first? This sucks donkey balls 😡

I am in a prelim year surgery spot. It is far easier to crawl into surgery even the program you desire by using the prelim year as your portal of entry. i scrambled here and I so did 3 of others. That one year is like auditioning onself to get accepted into categorical program. 👍

 

[shahkg]

Hey Denial,

Thanks for the info...would you mind PMing me which program you're in so I can at least see if I'm applying there? I am from NY and am applying to Penn schools, just not sure which ones yet. So you think that you have a good shot of landing a categorical spot next year at that same hospital?

 

[tecoboy]

Hey shahkg,

Regardless of what fourthyear believes, everything that I said was true. And contrary to fourthyear, I graduated number 1 in my class, never failed any rotation.....in fact, I got honors or high pass in every rotation but psych(pass).

Maybe he is right in that there was some subpar component to my application. My theories as to what went wrong?:
1) did not have a chair or high profile guy going to bat for me and making calls to put in a good word (you seem to have this covered)
2) had no electives due to stringent requirements of my school to have certain rotations under my belt (hopefully, you can do electives at a few programs in which you are interested)
3) I suck at the "post-interview" game that everyone plays (my advice to you on this is to keep in contact with each program you have a serious interest......almost to the point of being annoying but not quite to that point......by doing this, you keep your name fresh in their minds) this is one thing that I probably failed in doing

If I were you I would apply widely, especially to community programs. AS far as the prelim option is concerned............I would check into the programs which have a history in taking people as categoricals after a prelim year ( two such programs which I know of personally: 1) NYMC-Our Lady of Mercy in the Bronx, NY; 2) UMDNJ-Morristown) Two people from my school did prelim at these programs last year and are now categoricals this year.

As far as my situation goes, Mr. fourthyear can say all he wants but here is the deal: I am volunteering in a very active research lab which will give me 3 or 4 publications over the next year with two of them as first or second author. I dont plan on trying for general surgery again because my interests have evolved but needless to say, the research I am doing has already benefited me with a ton of interviews already and September hasnt even come to a close yet.

I commend you on your ambition and your accomplishment to date. You stand as good a chance as anyone to get what you want as long as you realize that nothing worth having is easy. Work hard at getting interviews, be prepared for the interviews and follow up with programs after the interviews.

More importantly, dont let people like fourthyear (who is clearly a senior at a US school) paint a rosey picture for you. They dont know what you will be going through since they will never experience the discrimination against IMGs that you and I will face in our quest to fulfill our ambitions.

Hope this has been enlightening for you and anyone else who may be in a similar situation.

 

[tecoboy]

Its not like I didnt have options, fourthyear.................

I was offered several prelim positions during the scramble and opted not to accept them based on some advice and insider information that made me lean toward research.

For your information to any one who wishes to know(and you can check out the validity for yourselves): if you do a prelim at one program and apply to another program the next year............. the next program, if they hire you, will not get 100% of the funds that they would normally get for your training.
Question: who do you think a program is going to favor: a) a candidate that is fresh out of school that will bring in 100% of the residency training funding or b) a candidate that may have a year under his or her belt and has proven that they can handle the job but will bring only 80% of the funding.

Remember, this funding that programs get goes to upgrading various systems and equipment in the program and improves the technical capabilities.

Something to think about.

 

[shahkg]

Hey tecoboy,

Man I really feel for you, that's really tough. Who knows what happened? You seems like a real good candidate; surely you'll be back soon enough. I know a couple of people who wanted urology/plastics that went the research route first and then try again later after some publications. Hope it works out for you.

I was actually thinking about research, but I'm gonna wait and feel out the interviews. As for my LOR...I have two great ones, but both are from anesthesia because that's what I thought I wanted to do. So hopefully I can get a solid LOR from a chair or cheif in the upcoming months.

Did you decide to do research after you didn't match or you already knew you wanted to do some research first? I am applying to Jackson Memorial, North Shore LIJ, Temple, Penn State, Brooklyn, UMDNJ (both campuses), and some others in Florida right off the bat. I want to see if I hear anything from them first, and then I will apply to more programs. Any suggestions as to which places are FMG friendly?

thanks

 

[fourthyear]

The funding money for training residents goes to the Hospital, not the specific program. So I really doubt that most surgeons interviewing could give a hoot about funding or not - they want hardworking, smart people who work well with others. They want someone they are willing to interact with, teach, and trust with their patients for 5 years, not someone who can give the hospital 20% more money that surgeon won't ever see themselves.

I know it is much harder for IMG's. I really do wish you all the best. Really I suggest applying to tons of programs from the start. Waiting and submitting applications later may mean you miss out on potential interviews b/c interview slots start filling up early and if you wait till they've already been offered to others when you apply...you may end up with less interviews than you deserve.

Yes, I'm a US graduate, and a pgy2 gen surgery resident. I was not the most highly qualified applicant but I applied widely and got a spot I'm happy with. Apply widely is my best advice.

 

[tecoboy]

As fourthyear said, definitely apply to a ton of programs right away. And try not to be too specific on where you are willing to go geographically. As long as you are applying in Florida and New York/Pennsylvania areas, you might as well apply to a lot of programs in between.

Definitely dont wait to apply. The sooner you apply the more likely it is that you will be invited to interview since a lot of programs have already or soon will send out invitations.

Concentrate on community programs. Dont waste your money on big name programs, they will take one look at your application, see that your an IMG, toss it in the trash and then have a good chuckle about it over lunch with one of their colleagues. (Sad but true)

Try the community programs in Connecticut (Waterbury, Stamford, St Raphael) and definitely apply to the two I mentioned in a previous post.

I cant stress enough that time is of the essence. APPLY ASAP!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[tecoboy]

The general rule of thumb for an IMG is this:

Apply to TWICE the number of programs that US seniors apply to

This will yield about half the number of interviews as what the US senior will get.

I developed this rule last year when I picked the brains of some of the US seniors that I met on the interview trail.

Most of them applied to 25 to 35 programs and got invited to about half of them. (about 12 - 18 interviews)

I applied to over 70 and got a total of 9 interviews. You do the math and compare. (keep in mind, this is with excellent USMLE scores)

I am not telling you this to scare you. Im telling you this so that you can get started on doing what you need to do as soon as possible in order to get your interviews.

 

[shahkg]

Hey guys, thanks for the great advice. These forums have single-handedly guided me through this whole application process. I wish I would've known about this place sooner...

But yes, I am applying to about 40-50 programs, mostly in the east coast. I wont even bother applying for the university programs as suggested. I just hope I can land a spot somewhere (hopefully not NY) that I will enjoy. Florida would be a dream... I am sending out my first 10 app's this upcoming Monday. Cross your fingers 😀