Differing program lengths

[teammonkeys123]

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I'm trying to figure out the differences between PsyD programs that are 4 years long (3 years + internship) versus 5 (4 +1) versus longer...where do the differences arise? It's difficult to pinpoint when looking at the program requirements and sequences. Is it the dissertation and when you are required to start it? Or summer sessions? Any explanations would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[Ollie123]

There are programs that are only 3 years + internship?

Yikes, I thought the minimum was 4 + internship (with some going 5 years + internship).

I don't know terribly much about PsyD programs, but I'd guess the difference is probably in research requirements, number of practicums students do, etc. More stuff you have to do = more time you have to spend there. I doubt its a summer sessions thing. I've never heard of a doctoral program that DIDN'T have students working all summer long. I'd expect those days to be over by this stage in the game.

Out of curiosity, what schools are only doing 3 year programs? I've heard of ONE person pulling that off at what was typically a 4 year program (meaning 4 years + 1 internship year) and she literally worked 18 hours a day 7 days a week for almost the whole 3 years to pull that off.

 

[Markro311]

I'm beginning my first year in the Psy.D. program at the Adler School in Chicago. Our program is 4 years + internship, although there are definitely some students who end up taking longer (usually due to dissertation). We also have a full class load every summer. It's kind of hard for me to believe that someone can finish in 3 years + internship unless 1) they already had their masters, or had many credits towards a masters 2) they were busy with classes/practicum/research or work 90-100 hours a week lol. I'd be interested in seeing the sequences for such a program.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Baylor (a well respected PsyD) had the option of 3+1 back when I looked at it, but went to a 4+1 the next year, IIRC. I remember their curriculum as being very rigorous, and I think the 4th year makes it more manageable, because of the TA/RA responsibilities, etc. That was actually a big downside, and I was concerned with having enough time for everything....but I guess they were too, and switched it. I'm not sure what their average was....it wouldn't surprise me if most took longer.

As someone who is looking at internship now, I can't imagine doing it in 3 years. If you take extra courses every summer and full courses in the fall/spring, getting done in 3 years seems possible, but the other responsibilities are what make it crazy. I started my research right away, and took classes year round, and it was a grind.

Are there programs that do 3+1?

-t

 

[psychanon]

I don't buy that it's possible to have a program that regularly puts people through in 3+1-- that would mean cutting serious corners.

maybe you're misinterpreting 4+internship as 4 incl internship?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I don't buy that it's possible to have a program that regularly puts people through in 3+1-- that would mean cutting serious corners.

maybe you're misinterpreting 4+internship as 4 incl internship?

I just looked up the baylor info, I think it was structured 3 years of required on campus work, and then another year of research and practicum, and then internship. Their placement rate, attrition, etc are all excellent.

http://www.baylor.edu/psychologyneuroscience/index.php?id=21427

Admissions Data:

1. Time to Completion (over last 7 years)*

a. Mean years to complete the program from the time of entrance: Out of 70 graduates, it took them 4.09 years on average to complete the program.
b. Median years, 4 years.
c. Percentage of students completing the program in fewer than 4 years, 0%. Fewer than five years, 97%. Fewer than six years, 98.6%. Seven years or less, 100%.
d. The program has recently been expanded to include an additional year of dissertation and research experience. As a result beginning in 2007 the program requires a minimum of 4 years on campus followed by 1 year APA approved internship (5 years total minimum time to complete the program).

Either way....it is at least 4 years, however they cut it.

-t

 

[Jon4PsyD]

Hartford has a 3+1 program
Rutgers does also..it can't be that horrible an idea if the best program has this as an option🙂

 

[Ollie123]

That seems a bit more reasonable.
It would be hard, but not impossible to get classes done in 3 years at most programs. That would mean spending so much time on classwork everything else would go to **** though, and we all know classwork is the least important part of graduate school🙂

Its not uncommon for folks here to go an entire semester without taking classes (just dissertation credits) but our program shoots for 5 years + 1 since they really want us to focus on our research (one of the reasons I love it....we have people getting Journal of Abnormal papers from their master's projects! ). A well-designed program can get students out in 4 years, but I can't imagine doing less than that while still doing everything well.

Edit: Just saw Jon's post. Does anyone know what kind of clinical hours folks are coming out with from programs like that? I imagine that would be kind of a limiting factor too. Folks here are usually between 1500-2000 and we're a research-oriented school🙂 I think it would be tough to squeeze 1000 clinical hours into 3 years especially since your clinical work is probably minimal during year 1.

 

[Jon4PsyD]

Ollie, good question. One I don't know the answer to. I almost think it's irrelevant anyway when you look at average years to completion..Rutgers seems to average around 5, Hartford 6.

I know if I ever get into a doctoral program (keeping my fingers crossed for THIS application season), that I wouldn't want a 3+1 ... I think it's just way too much...I wouldn't be able to stay sane and I'd complete a program more successfully in 5-6 years than trying to rush through in 4.

Jon🙂

 

[Ollie123]

I actually checked the Rutgers website and it looks like classes years 1-3 and dissertation in year 4 is the "goal", no mention of it being a 3 year program though it seems like people usually take even more than 4🙂

I'm quite content with my longer program. They seem to graduate folks in excellent shape - we haven't had an internship problem in quite some time save for people who want to stay local (which I can hardly fault the school for) and numerous people from my lab get offers for tenure-track academic jobs at top-tier universities - one without even doing a post-doc! I'm willing to spend an extra year if it means I can get the kind of job offer I want. If folks can do 4 (I think JN is) than good for them. Great for them actually. I'm not sure I could pull it off and still do everything I want to do, so I'm content to stay longer.

 

[JockNerd]

Yeah, I'm doing it in four. My funding determines my course load, and there's no way I could take longer and retain funding. I wouldn't be particularly eager about doing five anyway. People leave my lab with numerous solid publications in 4 years and the plan we have so far has me producing enough that I shouldn't have to do a post-doc (but that's five years away, so we'll see).

It's certainly not easy to do that courseload though, even in a department that emphasizes research. There's still an avalanche of readings. Even people coming in the a masters here still plan on 4 years. I couldn't imagine packing 90 credit hours into 3 years and still being able to do my own research. Similarly, I can't see how they would pack in all the extra prac at a PsyD program in 3 years.

T4C's mention of the 3 years coursework + 1 year research/prac is interesting, but doesn't mean that you're applying for internships with only about half the prac hours you'll ever get on your application? That would suck. And still, too much coursework I'd say!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I know I started working on a research team a few weeks into school, but I didn't do 20+ hours a week right off the bat...I think I would have gone running for the hills by x-mas if I did that. I've heard some of the heavy research programs don't provide real therapy time until the research is signed off on.....which would bother me, but I think people like Ollie would extend their research, just to make sure. 😀

I had my research signed off on a couple months ago, and I couldn't be happier. I really enjoyed parts of it, and LOATHED other parts. The edits were definitely the worst part for me, by the end I just wanted to be done....all of the nit-picking things drove me up the wall. I think that will be my biggest hurdle for getting things published in journals once I get established, not doing the work, but doing the edits!! The quicker people realize that my way is always right, the easier it will be for everyone else!

I got frustrated with my supervisor during various parts of my final research (and I'm sure he with me), though I definitely learned a lot, not the least being I STILL suck at time management (for me, I rock at managing others and doing it).

-t

 

[psychanon]

I don't think that the number of classes is the constraint. I'm a 4th year and totally finished my classes in 3 years. In fact, only one of the 3 classes I took as a 3rd year was required. Coursework varies a lot by program, but in mine, it is very intense the first year and not so bad after that. The trickier thing would be completing a masters thesis, passing comps, and doing a dissertation in 3 years, not to mention accumulating enough clinical hours to get an internship-- it's basically impossible unless you're super[wo]man or your program has shoddy standards.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I pushed off my last 4 classes to my 4th year (split 2 and 2), and I still have 1 comp left (though it is oral, so that should be easy....right?!), and the entire internship process. I've heard of at least a couple programs that require their students to have their apps done by the fall (Aug/Sept), so they can concentrate on getting their research/diss as far along as possible, and not have pesky applications getting in the way. 😀

*mod note*

I'm splitting off the internship / hours discussion to another thread. Click HERE for that discussion.

-t