Difficulty for DO's in surgical specialties?

[DD214_DOC]

I have come to realize that my main interest in medicine is in surgery; I like to work with my hands and fix things. Besides psychiatry (a strange outlier) my only interest is in surgical fields: specifically, general surgery, ortho, and trauma surgery.

How difficult is it for a DO to match to any of these residencies? Do any have DO-specific programs? I'd like to know now, because if it will really (and I mean really) hurt then I better start planning on MD schools.

The degree doesn't matter to me -- the career does. Thanks.

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[DO2007(ER)]

DOs can match into any surgical program in all 50 states. Even better, DOs can match into DO specific programs whereas at this time MDs are unable to match in the Osteopathic match. What does this mean? It means DOs have an advantage of matching into many more programs than their MD counterparts. Now you may read and hear that DO programs are less competitive and may not provide the best teaching. I know from experience working with a lot of DOs that DO programs can and do produce great physicians!! That's just my two cents. Take it for what it's worth! Have a good day and really think hard before you decide anything in life that will affect you for a long time!!

 

[Idiopathic]

It will be difficult if you want to do an allopathic surgical residency. Just go to some of the mid-level programs websites and see how many DO's they have in residency (I have seen one DO in an allopathic surgical residency). However, it is what I want to do as well, so we just have to plan on shining in everything we do, right? Plan on being in the top 5 in your class and in the top 5 % of boards as well as getting strong LOR's and it doesnt matter where you go to school.

 

[DrQuinn]

Depends what you want to do. I know a DO who just started an MD Ortho residency up north. General Surgery isn't terribly competitive, but hope to rank int he middle of your class.

Now if you're specifically talking about surgical subspecialties like ENT and anything of the ilk, you'll need to be Ghandi. Possible, but you should expect to score top 10% in boards/class rank, as well as shine on an elective rotation and get good letters.

Q, DO

 

[DD214_DOC]

Sounds like you really have to shine for specialties such as ortho, regardless of whether you are MD or DO.

I'm interested in any field of surgery. How compeitive is TS?

 

[DrQuinn]

Not terribly competitive, from what I understand. Note that you do a GS residency and then become a trauma fellow.

I know you are focused on surgery, but you can also do trauma/critical care fellowships after an EM residency.

Q, DO

 

[bla_3x]

Sounds like you really have to shine for specialties such as ortho, regardless of whether you are MD or DO.

Exactly! It?s not like any John Q M.D. student is going be given an ortho/uro/ent/etc. spot on the basis of their degree. They have to out-shine the other applicants too. There are really a lot of great opportunities for D.O.s in surg. and surg. specialties if you have what it takes academically. Every time I search I find more and more D.O.s who are training or practicing in competitive surgical fields.
Myself I don?t know yet what I am going be ?when I grow up.? But my hospital experience has led me to consider ENT/Ortho/GS/IM-GE/Peds?I guess we?ll see.

 

[PublicHealth]

JKDMed:

How often do you change your mind?

JKDMed's post in "Psychiatry: Removed from traditional "medicine", posted in the Psychiatry forum:

"I am very interested in pursuing psychiatry over surgery or EM. However, it seems to me that psychiatry is distanced from "traditional" medicine: trad. med being wearing scrubs, white coat, doing rounds, interacting with other staff, cutting people open, etc. I think you guys understand what I mean.

For those who in residency or attending psychiatry, could you please share your thoughts? I don't intend to let something minor such as this interfere with my career decision, but I'm curious."

 

[Idiopathic]

I think JKDMed mentioned Psych. as being his other interest.

 

[Dre1207]

i know of two D.O.s from Western U who matched into the highly competitive LA County USC Emergency Med Residency. They only take 6 residents and two were DO's! This residency is pretty cool because the do alot of surgery due to the short staffed LA County system!

 

[DD214_DOC]

Originally posted by Idiopathic
I think JKDMed mentioned Psych. as being his other interest.

I did mention psych as a second interest, and it is. Like any logical person, I'm trying to gather as much information about all of my interests as I can.

 

[brianjc]

The last two years form AZCOM there have been something like 12 allopathic surgical residencies (my instate M.D. institution only had ~ 8). The bottom line is that if you are a D.O. it is harder to get a allopathic residency. But just like medical school, as long as your grades, board scores are where they should be in order to apply to an allopathic surgical residency then you'll get one. (it just might not be your first choice)

 

[DrQuinn]

Originally posted by Dre1207
i know of two D.O.s from Western U who matched into the highly competitive LA County USC Emergency Med Residency. They only take 6 residents and two were DO's! This residency is pretty cool because the do alot of surgery due to the short staffed LA County system!

Oh barf I would hate to do any surgery rotations while I'm in EM! A lot of the EM residencies are phasing out the General Surgery rotations.

I"m hoping you're referring to TS.

Q, DO

 

[pratik7]

does your degree turn from DO to MD if you go to DO school and complete with a MD residency. If not, why should it matter if you are a MD or DO for a match

 

[irish79]

If you graduate from an Osteopathic School, your degree always remains DO, whether you do an osteopathic or allopathic residency. These are just postgraduate training programs, not degree granting programs.

 

[ussdfiant]

Originally posted by pratik7
does your degree turn from DO to MD if you go to DO school and complete with a MD residency. If not, why should it matter if you are a MD or DO for a match

 

[DrMom]

Originally posted by pratik7
does your degree turn from DO to MD if you go to DO school and complete with a MD residency. If not, why should it matter if you are a MD or DO for a match

Only DOs can apply for osteopathic residencies. Both MDs and DOs can apply for allopathic residencies, but some allopathic programs have very few or no DOs.

 

[GeauxDO]

I was wondering how competitive DO ortho programs are. Do you have to be in the top 10% of the class and kick ass on boards? Or is there any hope for the rest of us (I'm in the top half of my class after 1 yr, but not by much)?

 

[s42brown]

You have absolutely no chance.......except maybe a slim one in an osteopathic program. Time to think about another field......I am a D.O. who just completed an anesthesiology residency at a very prestigious residency......My starting salary? >300k/year!

Wow what a general, over simplified, arrogant thing to say to someone. I think your just bitter that your surgeons get all of the glory.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Who cares, as soon as someone jacks him in the face his status and salary don't mean ****. He just tries to find excuses to post his salary; this isn't the first thread he's managed to do that.

 

[hippocrates2006]

Just wondering what prestigeous Anesthesiology program you graduated from and how competitive are things now? What if you are in the top 5% of your class. Where can that get you in Anesthesia?

 

[pboothe]

I'm still curious if anyone knows of or if anyone knows of any resource where I can find out if there is any residency program that has never admitted a DO.

 

[....]

JKD isnt in med school yet.
hes just a nut case....

And to Gas mans critics, no you will not match to ortho being in the 50% percent of your class. period. If you do general then apply afterward to a fellowship that you could ctill become one, but not an integrated prgram.

 

[paramed2premed]

I was reading the list of students who matched into residencies at Dartmouth, and I noticed 3 DOs. One of them was matched into surgery.

There were about 8 other PGY1s in surgery, so 1/8 isn't bad!

 

[RajMahal]

I'm an MSI at DMU, who's primarily interested in surgery. Here's my two bits worth.
If you apply for both osteopathic and allopathic match, and you match into an DO residency, they'll pull you from the MD match. There's no way around that.
Osteopathic medicine has traditionally focused on primary care, and for that reason, there are simply not as many surgery/surgical subspecialty osteopathic residencies. There are a few though. How hard do you have to work to match into an MD surgical specialty? Really Friggin Hard. You'd better plan on being top 5%, and taking both sets of boards and doing well on them. However, there are several spots for DO specialty surgical residencies. For example, here in Des Moines, and Mercy-Broadlawns medical center, there are general surg, ENT, and ophtho spots, all DO spots (AOA accredited). Are the most competetive programs MD programs? In general, yes. I guess it depends on how much loyalty you have to osteopathic medicine and principles. General Surgery residencies go unfilled every year. if you want to do trauma, apply for MD residencies, but still plan on doing well. Surgery is a field of medicine which requires skill, not just good grades and board scores. Prove your worth in the OR during general surgery, and getting the fellowship of your choice should not be a problem.

Best of luck,

Raj Misra
DMU-COM&S, 2007

 

[AttemptDOnowDPM]

Originally posted by The_Gas_Man
You have absolutely no chance.......except maybe a slim one in an osteopathic program. Time to think about another field......I am a D.O. who just completed an anesthesiology residency at a very prestigious residency......My starting salary? >300k/year!

__________________
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you!

What a funny thing to say, with THAT signature at the bottom......

 

[Goofyone]

Here are a few fun facts for you guys. Taken from the 2003 edition of Iserson's: Getting into a Residency.

First of all, DO students account for about 4% of all medical residents. MDs account for 69%, and IMG (international students) the remaining 27%.

In the 2002 match:

~229 DOs matched in DO surgical residencies. Of those, 114 were ortho, 79 gen surg, the rest in various surgical subspecialties.

~182 DOs matched to ACGME surgical residencies. Of those, 17 are training in ortho, 136 in gen surg (notice that's nearly double than in DO programs!), and the rest in various other fields.

The windup is that DOs occupy ~2% of most MD surgical residencies. Interestingly, in Hand surgery (an ortho offshoot), DOs occupy about 7% of the MD spots.

When you consider that DOs account for only 4% of all residents, and the fact that ONLY DOs can match to DO surgery programs, and finally the fact that most DOs do primary care, the odds don't look so bad if you're a DO who likes surgery!

Now if you had your heart set on neuro, thoracic, or orthopedics, the problem is that there just aren't enough spots to go around. So OF COURSE you are going to have to KICK BUTT on boards and wards. That's life

Competitive programs will always be competitive regardless of whether you're an MD or DO. Its basic supply and demand.

I do think that the AOA is shooting us all in the feet by allowing SO MANY STUDENTS INTO SCHOOL IN THE FIRST PLACE, AND NOT HAVING NEARLY AN ADEQUATE NUMBER OF PROGRAMS FOR D.O. GRADUATES TO GO INTO. This FORCES DOs to apply to MD residencies in an already cramped market.

My advice: Pick what you want, regardless of the market or competitiveness, work your butt off for the grades, and have a back-up plan. Don't let anyone tell you that you CANT do Ortho, or whatever else you want. If everyone took that advice, we wouldn't have any orthopedic surgeons, would we?.

 

[kpax18]

Originally posted by The_Gas_Man
You have absolutely no chance.......except maybe a slim one in an osteopathic program. Time to think about another field......I am a D.O. who just completed an anesthesiology residency at a very prestigious residency......My starting salary? >300k/year!

 

[PainMan]

Originally posted by s42brown
Wow what a general, over simplified, arrogant thing to say to someone. I think your just bitter that your surgeons get all of the glory.

And you are upset because Gas is right....

 

[Idiopathic]

Originally posted by pboothe
I'm still curious if anyone knows of or if anyone knows of any resource where I can find out if there is any residency program that has never admitted a DO.

Go to any schools website and look at their current residents. There are several schools that have never taken DO's, but you cant always assume it is because they WOULDNT take one...a DO from OSU in the top 5 of his/her class and a 250+ USMLE should have his or her pick of residencies, excluding ortho, derm, neurosurg, ENT, where you apparently have to get hand-picked by God...asking the above question is like saying "can you find any planets that DONT have life?" it is always harder proving the negative.

 

[Careofme]

"hand-picked by God" ?? I dont understand...

 

[OphthoBean]

Originally posted by RajMahal
For example, here in Des Moines, and Mercy-Broadlawns medical center, there are general surg, ENT, and ophtho spots, all DO spots (AOA accredited).

There is not an AOA ophthalmology residency in Iowa. The programs are in MI, OH, PA, IL, and OK.